CAP 25 - Part 9 - CAP 25f Moveset Discussion

[snake]

I'd like to offer a different perspective on Flame Charge. There is a fundamental difference between Flame Charge and Bulldoze, and I want to point out what they do the same, and what they do differently, and by the end of this post, I will have made a convincing argument for disallowing Flame Charge and embracing Bulldoze. Now, what do they both do?

1. They both take advantage of CAP25's unique palate of resistances against offensive teams.

It shouldn't be a surprise that Flame Charge / Bulldoze CAP25f poses a unique challenge for Tapu Koko, as it basically forces Tapu Koko to U-turn. Why? Well, if it uses any of its other standard moves, CAP25f gets a free Flame Charge / Bulldoze against whatever switches in. This means that whatever switches in has to be faster than a +1 CAP25f (or faster than CAP25f at -1 speed, same thing) if it wants to revenge it, and this is what can make CAP25f unique. Once it has an opportunity, CAP25f can start to dismantle offense by dragging down most opponents' speed below its speed and then take advantage of its Fire / Ground / Ice or Electric coverage. Tapu Koko is just one example of a Pokemon who would be limited by CAP25f's presence on the opposing team. For example, Choice Scarf Volkraken cannot safely click Fire Blast or Flamethrower, as it will then allow CAP25f to come in for free for the speed control move. Choice Scarf Landorus-T can't click Defog or Hidden Power Ice either for the same reason in the case of Flame Charge. Choice Scarf Jumbao can't click Moonblast either. Things get even more interesting when you throw in Shuca Berry, which improves your matchup greatly against offensive teams, as it can tank an Earthquake from Choice Scarf Landorus-T, Choice Scarf Kitsunoh's Earthquake, Choice Band Syclant's Earthquake, and Krilowatt's Earth Power. While this does weaken your matchup against defensive teams, against which you'd want Groundium Z or Soft Sand, it's a fair trade-off, and the opponent doesn't know what item you have, barring Knock Off or Kitsunoh's Frisk. Basically, there are a handful of offensive threats against which CAP25f can take advantage of its defensive typing and potentially Shuca Berry and gain a free boost.

252 SpA Volkraken Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Camerupt: 114-134 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

2. They both enable CAP25f to perform a "naga speed lock."

Let me define "naga speed lock." Those who remember back to the beginning of USUM, Naganadel was in the OU metagame before it was promptly removed from the metagame. The reasoning wasn't its access to Nasty Plot and general power and coverage. It was due to the inability for anything to revenge it after it got a KO. Now, gaining a +1 Speed Boost upon a KO might sound innocuous, but think about what that entails. Against a +2 Naganadel, if you left whatever Pokemon out that was going to get KOed, Naganadel would gain the +1 Speed Boost. However, if you switched out, you had to switch out into something sturdy to tank its attack AND fast enough to outspeed it AND powerful enough to KO it. This was the problem with Naganadel - very few things fell into all three categories, and thus, you couldn't revenge it unless you run Scarf Greninja, which was the only Choice Scarf using available to outspeed a +1 Naganadel. Therefore, when I define a "naga speed lock," it's when the opponent is pinned down because if they stay in, they faint, and if they switch out, the opponent gains a +1 Speed boost.

Now, let's apply this to CAP25f. I want to call CAP25f a proto-Naganadel in a sense. Although it doesn't have to gain a KO to gain the +1 Speed Boost, most of the same principles apply. Lets look at an example. Say you have a Choice Specs Tapu Lele and the opponent has a CAP25f on the bench. Choice Specs Tapu Lele took a hit before KOing the Pokemon in front of it, so now it's sitting at less than half health. Now, CAP25f switches in. Your opponent has successfully set up the naga speed lock. If Tapu Lele stays in, Flame Charge or Bulldoze KO. However, if Tapu Lele switches out, immunities nonwithstanding, CAP25f will gain the speed boost. This lock places immense pressure on the opponent, as they either sack of Tapu Lele, or they have to come up with some switch-in that can tank a Flame Charge or Bulldoze and then either a) still outspeed and KO, b) tank another one of CAP25's moves (which includes Fire-, Ground-, and Ice-type coverage), or c) smack it with priority, which is possbile, but still isn't the easiest thing to do when you consider that the only scarfers that are currently faster than 97 Base Speed are Kitsunoh, Greninja, and Syclant. Also, if you refer to my last post, I've noted that offense generally has a hard time with even Flame Wheel, Earthquake, and Hidden Power Ice. This lock doesn't work with just Tapu Lele, it works on any slower Pokemon that's in KO range for Flame Charge.

3. The difference between a Flame Charge and Bulldoze is profound when factoring in situations from point 1 and point 2.

If we go with Flame Charge, after you perform a situation in 1 or a naga speed lock, you're at +1 speed. You still get to abuse your near-perfect coverage and +1 speed that outspeeds a bunch of the relevant Choice Scarf Pokemon, leaving almost no opportunity for the opponent to revenge kill CAP25f without running extremely specific Pokemon to revenge kill it. On the other hand, if CAP25f runs Bulldoze, the opponent can safely revenge kill CAP25f after it's knocked out one of the opposing Pokemon. This is the difference between Flame Charge and Bulldoze. They both pressure offense, but Flame Charge has the ability to continue sweeping after you've pivoted CAP25f. Retaining the +1 Speed differential over the opposing team is what makes Flame Charge annoying to deal with. What that means is that if you successfully take advantage of a Koko / choice-locked Pokemon or get the naga speed lock against anything, you can sweep up a weakened team. Now, maybe the team isn't weakened enough? Literally wait, chip down the opposing team, and then you can do it again, still placing pressure on the opposing team for not just one Pokemon, but for the entire team. However, if you go Bulldoze and pull off situation 1 or the naga speed lock, threaten the team for a localized turn, but that doesn't affect the entire match with a CAP25f sweep. This is what makes Bulldoze more balanced: if you want to play CAP25f to the best of its ability, you have to play with it carefully throughout the match, which honestly should be expected of a Pokemon that has Fire/Ground/Ice coverage with a stat spread that it has - it's fast, can tank a hit, and isn't a slouch offensively.

 

[hawk1113]

Okay time for a final post about Flame Charge. A weekend of thought has put me on snake_rattler and LucarioOfLegends side that this move is too dangerous. Long post incoming, so consider that the TL;DR.

First, I asked innocently in Discord a simple question - if the ability to click a +1 Speed move on the switch is SO dangerous, SO overwhelming, that it threatens to destroy the meta, then why is Mega-Charizard X only a "B" rank Pokemon? After all, ZardX has...

• A similarly boosted Flame Charge (65 BP thanks to Tough Claws) and the even more deadly Dragon Dance (+1 Attack probably trumps some chip in most match-ups)
• Similarly wide neutral coverage against most of the meta, with only Fire-resistant Fairies (M-Altaria, Tapu Fini, Azumarill, M-Diancie) and Heatran as Pokemon capable of soaking both STABs (and ZardX even gets Earthquake to nail two of those for SE damage).
• An even stronger Speed tier at base 100, and even more power in 130 base attack.
• An ability that gives it some insanely hard-hitting attacks including a 150+ BP STAB move in Flare Blitz.
• A meaty 634 BST gives it some actual physical bulk - "Physically Defensive ZardX" was a set in ORAS using Will-o-Wisp and Roost.

ZardX never got banned from OU and as mentioned is only a B-rank 'mon so how can our on-paper weaker 'mon with lower stats and worse STABs possibly be so dangerous? He's been mentioned in thread, so a more detailed look is warranted. Discord and study illuminated a few things:

• We Are Rocks Neutral: The thing that holds ZardX back is that pre-evolution it takes a whopping 50% to Stealth Rock and after evolve it is still taking 25%. We only take the standard 12.5% which is much easier to stomach. ZardX requires significant team support to come in safely or repeatedly switch in.
• We Are Not a Mega: On Discord people framed this as "of course ZardX is powerful, it is a mega evolution". But being a Mega is actually a significant balancing factor, one we are unhampered by. ZardX can't be run alongside other Megas and it faces steep competition not just from OU Stars like M-Mawile and M-Latios but from CAP's own M-Crucibelle for the role of deadly Mega Attacker. Additionally, being a Mega means no items. 25f will have the freedom and luxury of running Life Orb, Expert Belt, or Soft Sand to boost its damage output, or running berries and Z-crystals to juke its would-be checks and counters.
• We Have an (Arguably) Better Defensive Typing: We have six resists and immunities and only two weaknesses, compared to ZardX's three weaknesses and five resists. Notably, we have an outright immunity to one attacking type (Electric) and preserve the Fairy resistance of our fire typing. One thing I think that that lead to the down fall of ZardX is the presence of so many powerful Fairy types in USUM (the Tapus, mostly, but also Jumbao and Kerfulffle in CAP-land) that are capable of brutalizing it on its weaker special side. Let's remember that ZardX was A or A+ for most of ORAS. Meanwhile, we can just completely wreck anyone who clicks an electric move while we're still alive thanks to that immunity, and only have to fear Water and Ground in retaliation.
• We Have Better SE Coverage: Technician Hidden Power is a dangerous tool. Read ZardX's articles and it is pointed out that "bulky Grounds" are a good check or counter despite taking heavy damage from Flare Blitz; unfortunately we destroy bulky grounds (especially Landorus-T, Zygarde, defensive Garchomp, and Gliscor) with our 90 BP ice coverage move. We also get STAB on our Ground attacks; it is very telling that many ZardX builds run Earthquake as a way to dispatch of Heatran, M-Diancie, Toxapex, and other ground-weak and fire-resistant 'mons and that's even more powerful in CAP where we have numerous meta-defining CAPs that boast a key ground weakness (M-Crucibelle, Plasmanta, Mollux, Volkraken, Naviathan). Dragon may have great neutral coverage, but Fire-Ground has much better SE coverage especially since it largely covers each other's weaknesses.

The first three points means there is a risk that 25f becomes an easy inclusion on too many teams. While all Pokemon love some support, especially offensive ones, 25f doesn't demand the same teambuilding costs as ZardX. The last is the real clincher though, the true thing separating "balanced" from "broken". As we're discovering in thread, it's near-impossible to give any coverage to this 'mon because we already hit so much of the meta for at least neutral damage and Hidden Power lets us exploit some of the 4x weaknesses in our few checks and counters. I don't think there's any world in which 25f can get reliable Speed boosting AND have Hidden Power, and given how unprecedented it would be to deny a pokemon Hidden Power we're left with only the option to deny Flame Charge (and also deny Dragon Dance, obviously but worth stating given our Kaiju-like art design).

Additionally, just because we give up on Flame Charge doesn't mean we have to give up on Speed Control. Bulldoze is a perfectly viable alternative, one that is muuuuuccch safer for two reasons:

• Bulldoze can be blocked: Only one meta-relevant 'mon can block Flame Charge (Heatran), and (BAN ME PLEASE) isn't going to want to come anywhere near our ground STAB. Bulldoze, meanwhile, can be blocked by all the flying and levitating 'mons that we want to exist as safety valves for 25f anyways (M-Aerodactyl, Stratagem, the Latis, Landorus, Gyarados, Pelipper). This means that we can't just casually click it as there is significant opportunity cost to being wrong.
• Bulldoze still leaves us revenge killable: Bulldoze on its face does much of what Flame Charge does - someone switches in a scarfed or faster answer like any non-Shuriken Greninja, Garchomp, Scarf Jumbao, Scarf Tapu Lele, M-Alakazam, etc - it eats a Bulldoze as it comes in, and now we outspeed and kill it on the second hit. The difference is that Bulldoze doesn't cause "The Naganadel problem" - the speed down dies with the hit Pokemon, and now a new 'mon can come in and kill us before we get another bulldoze off. If we had instead Flame Charged, now not only do we kill a scarfed or speedy answer but we're sitting at +1 or +2 against everything else. This is compounded by Flame Charge not being blockable. It ensures that there is no way for us to ever outspeed Landorus-T or Scarf Keldeo (barring Sticky Web support or something), so that they will be answers even in a worst case scenario. This isn't the case for Flame Charge, as we CAN outspeed and kill them at +2.

Bulldoze is still plenty powerful; indeed it makes us even MORE powerful against Heatran (who had a 50/50 versus Flame Charge if we had taken some prior damage) and Keldeo (Scarf Keldeo should still be able to kill us no matter but takes way more damage from a Bulldoze than a Flame Charge), but it much better preserves some sense of balance and counter-play and should absolutely be an option for 25f.

As an additional bonus, having a more answerable speed control move that doesn't allow us to snowball out of control will hopefully allow us to have at least a few powerful/intriguing moves (such as Flare Blitz, Bonemerang, Dragon Claw, Twinneedle, Pursuit, Poison Fang, Storm Throw, Close Combat, and Gear Grind) without controversy (although I will be addressing a few of those in a post later today). With Flame Charge we simply can't give ourselves any high BP move, as our entire counterplay will revolve around "mons that can live a hit or two and OHKO us with...something", and any high BP move gives us the potential to use a Z-crystal and break past them.

 

[Roland le preaux]

This is my final post about Flame Charge because I don't want to beat a dead horse. I feel that it is being overlooked how many answers an offense team would have to 25f. Every offense team in OU/CAP should, almost by definition, have a scarfer with >100 Speed. Since the introduction of Volcarona this has been near mandatory. In addition to being able to outspeed +1 25f, many of these scarfers can also switch-in to 25f. These include Latios/Latias, Keldeo, Pajantom, Garchomp. All of these scarfers are able to OHKO 25f after rocks damage and one round of Life Orb recoil. Many other scarfers, such as Kitsunoh, cannot switch-in to 25f but can easily revenge kill one that has taken a coupe turns of Life Orb or chip damage.

In addition to a fast scarfer, every offense team should be running a at least one priority user. There are many powerful priority users that can easily take on 25f, some of whom can switch-in to any attack and then OHKO 25f. This includes Guts Colossoil and Bulk Up Arghonaut (which I have seen many times, despite everyone trying to convince me that it doesn't exist). Revenankh with no Attack investment can switch into a Flame Charge and live the next attack and 2HKO thanks to priority Drain Punch.

When it comes to snake_rattler's comparison to Nagadenal, I respect your opinion but I find the analogy itself absolutely absurd. Nagadenal was a broken threat because it was a psuedo-double-dancer that could beat offense and defense alike. Thus far, no boosting moves have been seriously considered for a Flame-Charging 25f. To compound the difference between these mons, Nagadenal outsped ALL relevant scarfers at +1 due to a hugely different speed tier. I just can't take that argument seriously.

Edit: I meant Guts Colossoil, not Guts Naviathan. I know Naviathan doesn't have priority lol

 

[SHSP]

This is my final post about Flame Charge because I don't want to beat a dead horse. I feel that it is being overlooked how many answers an offense team would have to 25f. Every offense team in OU/CAP should, almost by definition, have a scarfer with >100 Speed. Since the introduction of Volcarona this has been near mandatory. In addition to being able to outspeed +1 25f, many of these scarfers can also switch-in to 25f. These include Latios/Latias, Keldeo, Pajantom, Garchomp. All of these scarfers are able to OHKO 25f after rocks damage and one round of Life Orb recoil. Many other scarfers, such as Kitsunoh, cannot switch-in to 25f but can easily revenge kill one that has taken a coupe turns of Life Orb or chip damage.

In addition to a fast scarfer, every offense team should be running a at least one priority user. There are many powerful priority users that can easily take on 25f, some of whom can switch-in to any attack and then OHKO 25f. This includes Guts Naviathan and Bulk Up Arghonaut (which I have seen many times, despite everyone trying to convince me that it doesn't exist). Revenankh with no Attack investment can switch into a Flame Charge and live the next attack and 2HKO thanks to priority Drain Punch.

1: Scarfers with 100+ speed are exclusively for Volcarona, and both in OU and CAP have been falling off massively in need. From CAPTT stats we have:
Greninja, which includes Ash and Z-Protean sets, at 19% usage (8th overall)
Kit, including Band sets, at 8% usage (25th overall)
Blace, including Z-move sets, at 3% usage (48th overall)

and that's it. Teams obviously did not need to run these mons constantly, they're not mandatory, especially not with Nect rising to beat most scarfers regardless.

2: None of those scarfers you listed are viable. Keldeo is B- in CAP and OU, with Scarf being the worst set for it. Scarf Latis are B-, with again, terrible scarf sets (especially now having to deal with AV Soil here in CAP). Scarf Paj isn't even mentioned on the analysis. Scarf Chomp is again, the worst set on a mediocre mon and is currently outclassed by Z-Dragon Rocks and TankChomp. Scarfers that can switch into 25f and eat 2 hits are few and far between, with very difficult metagame positions.

3: Snake's post above (well, last page) details priority users that fail to OHKO/Revenge healthy 25f. In addition, BU Argh is a very niche OO on it's analysis with a host of issues, and the only priority Navi gets is Feint...

4: When shit that beats 25f/checks it, you wait to FC. You aren't FCing vs balance or stall; it's vs offense, and you're cleaning a chipped team. If you're trying to clean a team and there's a full health Revenankh staring you down, you needed to bring that to a better range so you can beat it. In addition, just forcing in a prio user over and over gives you a shitload of tempo advantage that you leverage to get yourself in a winning position.

not gonna get into the Naga comparison, both sides of that make sense. Just do actual research before posting, like looking at the builder and seeing Navi has no priority, or watching a recent Snake/CAPTT/OLT/ST game and seeing offensive teams not need to run 100+ scarfers.

 

[Deck Knight]

Where the Naganadel speed lock comparison falls apart is the speed boost was passive and achieved upon any KO. To do this Naganadel had 127 SpA and 121 Spe with a +2 Booster and Z-Draco Meteor/Flamethrower/Sludge Wave. This is close to perfect neutral coverage on a Pokemon that can KO at 100% no questions asked and pick up a speed boost on any KO.

Contrast 25f, whose assumption is that it's too powerful against half-dead teams and cleans them easily. In fact, in order to get the "naga lock" the target has to be weak enough for a 75BP STAB off 116 Atk to KO it.

While such a list isn't short per se, it isn't long either. It also misses entirely the point that your opponent must graciously give you the option to passively wait out the weakening of their team.

Doesn't this logic apply to EVERY late game cleaner that can boost speed and take a single hit? Dragon Dance Flygon finishes teams beset under these conditions. The cleaner sets up its +1 Spe and finishes off the opposing team. Basic cleaner concept.

The difference here is solely that speed boost being attached to credible damage because of type matchup and base stat. But crucially, you set this up only by clicking Flame Charge and not by passively getting a KO.

The "naga speed lock" argument is actually a better argument against Fake Out than it is Flame Charge because Fake Out at least keeps damage to set up the cleaning condition internal to CAP 25f.

It's an intriguing argument for sure. Its problem is that it requires 25f to stumble into a favorable situation at full health rather than exchanging damage for the condition itself. Naganadel was a ridiculous, vicious sweeper running +2 SpA and as much speed as it could get in KOs. 25f is a cleaner using +1 Spe on a manual move select to wipe our the rest of a half dead squad.

The two aren't comparable in the least.

 

[snake]

When it comes to snake_rattler's comparison to Nagadenal, I respect your opinion but I find the analogy itself absolutely absurd. Nagadenal was a broken threat because it was a psuedo-double-dancer that could beat offense and defense alike. Thus far, no boosting moves have been seriously considered for a Flame-Charging 25f. To compound the difference between these mons, Nagadenal outsped ALL relevant scarfers at +1 due to a hugely different speed tier. I just can't take that argument seriously.

Where the Naganadel speed lock comparison falls apart is the speed boost was passive and achieved upon any KO. To do this Naganadel had 127 SpA and 121 Spe with a +2 Booster and Z-Draco Meteor/Flamethrower/Sludge Wave. This is close to perfect neutral coverage on a Pokemon that can KO at 100% no questions asked and pick up a speed boost on any KO.

Contrast 25f, whose assumption is that it's too powerful against half-dead teams and cleans them easily. In fact, in order to get the "naga lock" the target has to be weak enough for a 75BP STAB off 116 Atk to KO it.

While such a list isn't short per se, it isn't long either. It also misses entirely the point that your opponent must graciously give you the option to passively wait out the weakening of their team.

Doesn't this logic apply to EVERY late game cleaner that can boost speed and take a single hit? Dragon Dance Flygon finishes teams beset under these conditions. The cleaner sets up its +1 Spe and finishes off the opposing team. Basic cleaner concept.

The difference here is solely that speed boost being attached to credible damage because of type matchup and base stat. But crucially, you set this up only by clicking Flame Charge and not by passively getting a KO.

The "naga speed lock" argument is actually a better argument against Fake Out than it is Flame Charge because Fake Out at least keeps damage to set up the cleaning condition internal to CAP 25f.

It's an intriguing argument for sure. Its problem is that it requires 25f to stumble into a favorable situation at full health rather than exchanging damage for the condition itself. Naganadel was a ridiculous, vicious sweeper running +2 SpA and as much speed as it could get in KOs. 25f is a cleaner using +1 Spe on a manual move select to wipe our the rest of a half dead squad.

The two aren't comparable in the least.

The Naganadel example is not absurd. What would be absurd if I said that CAP25 would turn into Naganadel, but notice that I never said that in my post. I made a case for a situation where CAP25f with Flame Charge acts similarly to Naganadel due to its ability to boost its Speed upon a KO. Nowhere in my post did I say that CAP25f would act exactly the same as Naganadel, nor would it be as explicitly broken as Naganadel. What I did argue was the ability to boost Speed upon KO or against a switch-in makes CAP25f clean up teams in a similar manner that Naganadel does, and the pressure behind the naga speed lock is what makes it unhealthy, as you're constantly threatening the opposing team members not to fall under Flame Charge KO range, not to lock into a move that CAP25f resists, or use Electric-type moves with Koko.

 

[Deck Knight]

The Naganadel example is not absurd. What would be absurd if I said that CAP25 would turn into Naganadel, but notice that I never said that in my post. I made a case for a situation where CAP25f with Flame Charge acts similarly to Naganadel due to its ability to boost its Speed upon a KO. Nowhere in my post did I say that CAP25f would act exactly the same as Naganadel, nor would it be as explicitly broken as Naganadel. What I did argue was the ability to boost Speed upon KO or against a switch-in makes CAP25f clean up teams in a similar manner that Naganadel does, and the pressure behind the naga speed lock is what makes it unhealthy, as you're constantly threatening the opposing team members not to fall under Flame Charge KO range, not to lock into a move that CAP25f resists, or use Electric-type moves with Koko.

I don't think I called the Naganadel example absurd, I just said 25f's speed boost doesn't operate in the same way. I did call Naga redic though because lol it was. At 121 Spe a single boost but it outside or range of even theoretical scarfers (it would outspeed Scarf Zam lol) and if it got a second KO? Nothing was catching it.

But I wanted to use this post to take a step back and talk about where I think general consensus is:

1. Flame Charge is a wincon (win condition) move.
In the case of 25f, Flame Charge is definitely the move you select when you're solidifying your wincon. It is a potential end goal of the strategies you employ during each game depending on your matchup. Ideally you use it on a target that just got a KO on something else or after a slow pivot, and use Flame Charge on something slower from full health.
From there you use your remaining three moves which are Ground STAB, Hidden Power coverage, and your filler move (either a stronger fire attack, status, or utility generally) to sweep the rest of the opponents team.

2. Flame Charge is unique role compression.
Flame Charge is unique among moves as the only one which can KO opponents and raise your speed inherent in the move itself. Other moves can damage and lower speed, but that doesn't matter because a KO'd opponent doesn't have any boosts. Technician Flame Charge adds to Flame Charge's inherent utility by powering it up to a semi-decent STAB move in its own right. This allows you to chain it with Bulldoze, chain it with Hidden Power, or even chain it with itself to pick up an extra move slot. This makes Flame Charge incredibly dangerous when you correctly pick an opponent's switch because you seal off a lot of offensive response options. Slow, fat walls are already slower and don't care about your burn-less Fire Punch.

3. Flame Charge would be a unique application of a niche that has not proven viable on other Pokemon.
Despite (1.) and (2.) above the only Pokemon that has ever used a Flame Charge set effectively in higher tiers is Mega Charizard Y on a non-standard set. The primary recipients of Flame Charge over time have been Fire-types and a few off-type Pokemon that generally lack the speed to take advantage of beating slower scarfers, the coverage to make it work, or any effective kind of dual STAB. Interestingly as I was going through the Smogdex, I found Mega Houndoom has a set that uses it in NU... but drops it in the UU set. So many Pokemon could run Flame Charge in theory, but they simply don't.

What does 25f have over them? Chiefly it's technician for Speed control and the perfect coverage move for Fire/Ground typing with Hidden Power Ice, which acts as an Ice Beam that can't be used in a Z-Move. However there's no other Flame Charge cleaners in a similar power metagame to compare it to. This is where we start to diverge, because I think previous failures of this niche indicate it's great on paper, but more difficult in practice.

4. Counterplay will need to adjust to Flame Charge 25f
Given all of the above, it would not be unreasonable to think a Pokemon finally built to capitalize on Flame Charge's qualities will alter competitive choices. On the test simulator there are already 25f sets that use Shuca Berry to survive Ground attacks aimed at stopping 25f's cleaning attempts. jas61292 has pointed out on the Discord Server that Scarfers tend to be reactionary to offensive threats. In 25f's case, those Scarfers start at 98 Speed which has Swanna (probably not viable) and Hydreigon (more viable) and increases upward into the Base 100s, 105s, 110s, etc. While I don't expect HP Water Scarf Voodoom to show up any time soon, it does always OHKO 25f after Rocks or Spikes. Others have said such wacky theoretical counters (and HP Water Voodoom is the wackiest) already prove Flame Charge is too much.

That said, the fact is 25f has a very middling speed tier and a 4x weakness to a widely distributed moves like Aqua Tail, Surf, and Water Pulse in addition to the common Earth Power/Earthquake it's already compensating for with a weakness berry instead of an offensive item. Weakness Berries can work against it as well. The Hidden Power 4x coverage it was counting on to end a Garchomp or Landorus-T? Yache Berry makes its triumphant return, perhaps. Tailwind and Trick Room are both established strategies that either provide a stronger team boost or turn Flame Charge's asset on its head.

Finally, Intimidate shuffling on a revenge or pivot drastically weakens 25f, at least given the strongest other boosting move proposed for it thus far is Bulk Up. That might change if Swords Dance is advanced, but so far Intimidate seems to be a great way to turn mediocre defensive checks into solid ones, provided they aren't 4x weak to 25f's selected Hidden Power.

The question all of this brings us to is this one:

Is Flame Charge's unique wincon parameter healthy or unhealthy?

I believe the evidence of Flame Charge heretofore being an unviable wincon in higher tiers, it having an expansive array of potential counterplay, and the fact that despite this it will still be a powerful, unique option when used with skilled, intelligent play behind it makes it an ideal option to allow for CAP 25f. The matchups it changes seem to rely on it cleaning up and providing pressure, but without something like Fake Out it can usually only do so by exchanging blows, something it is mediocre at doing compared to competing Offensive Ground types like Landorus-T, Colossoil, Zygarde, and Garchomp, or competing Offensive Fire types like Heatran, Volkraken and Volcarona, all of which have greater bulk, some of which have relativistic or greater speed.

Its other alternative is to stay in the back until the mid and late game, something its resistance profile makes it unlikely to do as it may often be your best switch. Flame Charge gives 25f a notable edge by letting it shine as an offensive cleaner rather than a bulky offensive tank or sweeper role that its competitors tend to excel at.

 

[hawk1113]

Since I have a calculator open and want to do it, let's talk Coverage. In some ways, 25f gets whatever coverage it wants because of Tech Hidden Power and a fine 88 SpA - this allows it to crush a lot of 4x weak 'mons without investment and sometimes even with an Adamant nature. On top of our strong neutral coverage with our STABs alone, that means any move that isn't Fire, Ground, or Normal has to face some intense scrutiny on this 'mon. I won't talk about all of it this post, but I'll talk about most of it. I kept the following things in mind when evaluating coverage:

1. Our "most reliable" checks and counters seem to be shaping up to be M-Aerodactyl, Levitate Strategem, Tomohawk, the Latis, Scarf Keldeo, Gyarados, Pelipper, and Landorus-T. These are the most relevant C&C to consider when discussing coverage since they resist or ignore both our STABs, while most other C&C are hit neutrally by a STAB move and thus, any coverage move likely comes up short. Nevertheless when relevant, I will look at some other C&C like Pajantom, Arghonaut, Slowbro, Battlebond Greninja, Pyroak, and Chansey especially when it pertains to Z-moves or ridiculous Technician synergy moves. Some of these are shakier than others, or less prevalent than others, and its possible a specific set beats a few with HP. However, as our C&C list is so narrow, any coverage that gives us the ability to clean OHKO these guys (or, in the case of M-Latias and M-Aerodactyl, 2HKO) should probably not be allowed.
2. As a result of point one, anything with a non-teched BP greater than 80 on the physical side or 100 on the special side is pretty dangerous because it enables us to use a Z-move to nuke a check or counter. I'll be starting in these areas and only calcing further up if I find the moves seem harmless.

Because it "frees" our Hidden Power, the first coverage to discuss is Electric and Ice. We almost certainly shouldn't have access to any of these. Those are what we'll most commonly want our HP to be, and by giving ourselves one of those as an actual move we open up both the option to just kill almost all our checks with HP + Coverage + STABs in a 4-attack set, and the ability to Z-crystal nuke. I've seen some mild discussion here and in Discord about Frost Breath and Avalanche (because they're pro-ability and conept) and Thunder Punch (because it's ubiquitous on Fire Starters) and we simply cannot have it. That was my assumption at least. Turns out, Avalanche might be mostly fine.

-1 252 Atk 25f Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 248-292 (74.9 - 88.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk 25f Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Pelipper: 268-316 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk 25f Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl: 214-252 (71 - 83.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk 25f Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tomohawk: 166-196 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Electric-type coverage is too much, heavily maiming all our electric-weak counters and threatening OHKOs with Rocks up.

0 SpA Technician 25f Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian on a critical hit: 420-496 (109.9 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Technician 25f Frost Breath vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde on a critical hit: 364-432 (90 - 106.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Technician 25f Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk on a critical hit: 210-248 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Frost Breath is just a better HP Ice that lets us also run HP Electric for our water/flying counters. Because Zyagarde, Tomo, and Landoge have poor or uninvested Special Defense, this is too much. We already threaten a OHKO on HP especially as we outspeed them, so giving us a clean OHKO is insane.

-1 252 Atk Technician 25f Avalanche vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-Therian: 188-224 (49.2 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Technician 25f Avalanche vs. 188 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 312-368 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Technician 25f Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tomohawk: 198-234 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician 25f Avalanche vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 182-216 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk 25f (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 206-244 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk 25f Avalanche (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 276-326 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Avalanche applies some pressure to the Latis but fails to OHKO. The only place it gets the power boost is against M-Latias, who only 2HKOs with Stored Power after a boost, and M-Aerodactyl who fails to OHKO even with rocks up. Against the other three, we are OHKOd by their STABs so the damage for Avalanche was kept at 60->90. Overall this is probably too much as in theory the Lati@s and Aero are supposed to be true blue hard counters to 25f, but it's less insane than other Ice and Electric coverage. Subzero Slammer doesn't alter any matchups in a meaningful way, btw, because it's only a 120 BP Subzero Slammer.

Overall, it'd be insane to have Ice or Electric Coverage. I get nervous anytime we're able to start dishing out 55%+ against a counter so even though Avalanche is unlikely to actually OHKO anything relevant I'd still thumbs down it.

From here I'll throw out any other relevant type coverage that's been discussed, in alphabetical order. Note for all of these this is calcs with neutral nature and Soft Sand (unless a Z-crystal is relevant to C&C), so it is a floor and not a ceiling to how dangerous coverage is.

Bug:

The bug move under discussion is Twinneedle; the idea is that it is pro-concept but not overpowering the way Megahorn or Pin Missile might be. For sake of argument though, and because those two moves are flavorful, I'll take a look at them all.

calcs

Versus M-Latias

252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Twineedle (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 132-156 (36.2 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Pin Missile (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 206-244 (56.5 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Savage Spin-Out (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 326-384 (89.5 - 105.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Versus M-Latios
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Twineedle (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 152-180 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Pin Missile (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 228-270 (75.7 - 89.7%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 242-286 (80.3 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Versus Scarf Latios
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Twineedle (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 180-216 (59.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Pin Missile (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 270-324 (89.7 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 292-344 (97 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Versus Ash-Greninja
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Twineedle (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 208-248 (72.9 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Pin Missile (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 312-372 (109.4 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 334-394 (117.1 - 138.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Conclusion: Twineedle is in the range of discomfort but not outright dismissal for Latios and Ash-Greninja, since it does 59% or more. While we won't actually KO Latios or Ash-Greninja due to their high speed and respective Bull Doze Immunity and Water Shuriken Priority, our ability to absolutely mangle them is dangerous. Any bug move stronger is simply not acceptable for 25f.

Dark:

The primary Dark move under discussion is Pursuit, which allows us to "trap" psychic and ghost 'mons. I'll also look at Bite and Crunch preemptively since they are flavorful moves and Knock Off because it's a competitive move, despite not seeing a ton of discussion for them. You can use Crunch to see the damage of Pursuit on a switch-out. This range also gives us an idea of how any other "flavor move" (Brutal Swing, Feint Attack, Throat Chop) might perform. I will not analyze Sucker Punch as it seems far too dangerous despite being flavorful on our Volcanic Chameleon.

calcs

Versus M-Latias
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 104-124 (28.5 - 34%) -- 98.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Bite vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 156-184 (42.8 - 50.5%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 112-134 (30.7 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 138-164 (37.9 - 45%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 274-324 (75.2 - 89%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Versus Scarf Latios
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 146-174 (48.5 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 218-258 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 194-230 (64.4 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 386-456 (128.2 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Versus M-Latios
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 122-144 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- 55.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Bite vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 182-216 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 132-156 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 162-192 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 322-380 (106.9 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Versus Defensive Pajantom
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 160-190 (43 - 51%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Bite vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 240-284 (64.5 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 174-206 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 214-252 (57.5 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 426-502 (114.5 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Conclusion: Pursuit might actually be fine. What I didn't include is what this does to some 'mons that might want to try to switch out of us once they get hit by a Bulldoze, but honestly the number of 'mons who are really hurt by that are...small (or seems small, to me). The biggest target is probably Necturna, who (barring Colbur Berry which is listed as common for the Sticky Web support set) is taking 55-70% off Pursuit but obviously doesn't want to stay in and eat our Fire Stab. It is also good at polishing off Tapu Lele after it gets nerfed by Bulldoze, and generally getting in chip on anyone who doesn't want to stick around but it's small stuff. I don't find it intrinsically objectionable. Anything stronger is likely too strong especially given the incredible utility of Knock Off.

Dragon:
Dragon-type coverage has not been seriously discussed in thread, but I've seen mention of Dual Chop and DragonBreath in Discord. Given our extremely...draconic...art selection, it seems inevitable that we'll have some dragon moves submitted for flavor. Is this acceptable given that the Lati@s are some of our primary C&C? Let's find out! I'll be looking at Dual Chop, Dragon Pulse, Dragon Claw, and DragonBreath (in the form of HP: Dragon) as well as Devastating Drake (off of Pulse and Claw). Dual Chop should give a good idea of how Outrage would fair (except Outrage would also give us a bonkers Devastating Drake). I will not be looking at Dragon Tail currently, as I suspect we'll find most dragon coverage is unacceptable and Dragon Tail carries some additional competitive merit that seems unhealthy.

Hide

Versus M-Latias
252 Atk Abomasnow Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 138-164 (37.9 - 45%) -- 5.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Dual Chop (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 208-248 (57.1 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Devastating Drake (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 274-324 (75.2 - 89%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Technician Abomasnow Hidden Power Dragon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 82-98 (22.5 - 26.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Abomasnow Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 78-94 (21.4 - 25.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Abomasnow Devastating Drake (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias-Mega: 146-172 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- 40.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Versus Scarf Latios
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Dual Chop (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 292-348 (97 - 115.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 194-230 (64.4 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Devastating Drake (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 386-456 (128.2 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Technician Abomasnow Hidden Power Dragon vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 108-128 (35.8 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Abomasnow Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 102-120 (33.8 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Abomasnow Devastating Drake (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 190-224 (63.1 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Versus M-Latios
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Dual Chop (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 244-288 (81 - 95.6%) -- approx. 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 162-192 (53.8 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Devastating Drake (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 322-380 (106.9 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Technician Abomasnow Hidden Power Dragon vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 112-132 (37.2 - 43.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Abomasnow Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 106-126 (35.2 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Abomasnow Devastating Drake (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Latios-Mega: 196-232 (65.1 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Versus Defensive Pajantom
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Dual Chop (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 320-380 (86 - 102.1%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 214-252 (57.5 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Devastating Drake (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 426-502 (114.5 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Technician Abomasnow Hidden Power Dragon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom: 108-128 (29 - 34.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Abomasnow Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom: 102-120 (27.4 - 32.2%) -- 71.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Abomasnow Devastating Drake (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pajantom: 190-224 (51 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Conclusion: Any physical dragon move is likely overpowering on 25f, as Dragon Claw threatens too many OHKOs with a Z-crystal changing it to 160 BP Devastating Drake. Special Dragon moves for flavor are likely fine. Not factored in is the 30% Paralysis chance from DragonBreath. My suspicion is that this is more gimmicky than good, but it may be safer to deny it. Dragon Pulse is a 100% safe flavor move, unlikely to harm anything.

Fighting:
I've seen heavy mention of Storm Throw, and tentative discussion of Mach Punch. I'll also take a look to start at Force Palm (has some light discussion, and has similar power to Rolling Kick and Circle Throw) and Brick Break or Close Combat (as well as those moves conversion to All-out Pummeling)

Hide

Versus Levitate Stratagem
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 172-204 (53.5 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Force Palm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 258-304 (80.3 - 94.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Storm Throw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem on a critical hit: 386-456 (120.2 - 142%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Abomasnow Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 214-254 (66.6 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow All-Out Pummeling (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stratagem: 400-472 (124.6 - 147%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Versus Chansey
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Mach Punch vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 160-190 (22.7 - 27%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Force Palm vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 240-284 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Storm Throw vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 362-426 (51.5 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Brick Break vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 202-238 (28.7 - 33.9%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow All-Out Pummeling (140 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 374-440 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Close Combat vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 320-378 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 506-596 (72 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Versus Ash-Greninja
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 168-198 (58.9 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Force Palm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 250-296 (87.7 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Storm Throw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash on a critical hit: 376-444 (131.9 - 155.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Abomasnow Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 208-246 (72.9 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow All-Out Pummeling (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 388-458 (136.1 - 160.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Conclusion: Stratagem and Ash-Greninja are on our pressure list, so heavily maiming them if they attempt to switch in on us seems fair enough (as does possibly beating Stratagem if we go with Mach Punch). Nevertheless, that does mean we probably should cap our power at Force Palm (so overall 60 -90 BP), as Storm Throw and Close Combat (as well as implicitly Superpower and High Jump Kick) start getting to the point where they can actually power through Chansey's Soft-boiled and score outright OHKOs against these 'mons. Note that all of these moves have other merits (Mach Punch's priority, Force Palm's 30% paralyze chance) but it does show that even if those moves specifically aren't okay, stuff like Rolling Kick, Brick Break, Rock Smash, Revenge, etc should all be fine coverage/flavor moves on 25f.

Poison:
Poison has mostly been discussed in the form of Poison Fang; since many theoretical sets are looking to run Toxic as a way of flipping the script on walls (as we often end up having a 4th slot open after Fire STAB/Ground STAB/HP) Poison Fang gives us Toxic with a little bit of chip. I'll spare folks a wall of calcs; the move is fine. It comes in as less damage than Bulldoze (nevermind Earthquake or Bonemerang) versus most fairies such as Clefable, Tapu Fini, Azumarill, and Tapu Lele. It does improve our match-up versus Jumbao and Tapu Bulu, but since Jumbao is on our list as a "pressure" mon and not a C&C and Tapu Bulu is unmentioned, that seems fine - those 'mons were already taking 75%+ to our Fire STAB and struggling to race us. Many other fairys are weak to one of our other STABs, so Poison Fang will rarely be an issue. This should also mean, implicitly, that all poison coverage save Gunk Shot should be harmless as flavor.

Steel:
Steel has been suggested since Bullet Punch, Magnet Bomb, and Gear Grind are strongly synergtistic with Technician. I'll spare you calcs here as well; Steel coverage is just like Fighting coverage in its ability to mangle Stratagem, and all steel moves minus Gear Grind are going to do roughly as much as neutral moves on other fairies. Steel does allow us to effortlessly kill Tapu Lele but overall I'd say any Steel move except Gear Grind of 90 BP or less is fine for 25f.

Rock:
Oh, I said it was alphabetical? I lied. This is by far the most controversial coverage. Some in the thread seem to think it's all but assumed, as never has a reasonable fully-evolved Ground type NOT gotten Rock coverage. "EdgeQuake" coverage is regarded as a gold standard - most Grounds get Rock moves, most Rocks get Ground moves. Even most Fire Starters get Rock coverage (only Delphox and Incineroar lack it). Unfortunately, as several of our C&C is Flying Rock Coverage is quite dangerous. I'll be looking at Accelerock, Rock Throw, Rock Tomb, and and the Continental Crush off of Rock Slide. Rock Throw has the same BP as Smackdown without grounding our C&C, making it far, far, far more acceptable. Accelerock and Rock Tomb have other, major concerns for Speed Control but have been suggested in Discord and Thread.

Hide

Versus Defensive Pelipper
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Accelerock vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Pelipper: 108-128 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Rock Throw vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Pelipper: 134-158 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Rock Tomb vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Pelipper: 160-190 (49.5 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Continental Crush (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 32+ Def Pelipper: 248-294 (76.7 - 91%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Versus Dragon Dance Gyarados
-1 252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 100-118 (30.2 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Rock Throw vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 124-146 (37.4 - 44.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 146-174 (44.1 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
-1 252 Atk Abomasnow Continental Crush (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 228-270 (68.8 - 81.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Versus M-Aerodactyl
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 138-164 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Rock Throw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 172-204 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Abomasnow Rock Tomb vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 206-244 (68.4 - 81%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Abomasnow Continental Crush (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Aerodactyl-Mega: 322-380 (106.9 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Conclusion: Before I make this conclusion, note that we would like Gyara and Pelipper to be hard stops to our 'mon unless we make the sacrifice of running HP: Electric to kill them, and that all three of these ought to be counters. Also note that we outspeed Gyarados and Pelipper without any boosting or scarfs. The definition of a counter is "Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

With that definition, the conclusion is that All Rock Coverage should be disallowed on 25f. Accelerock is unlikely to 3HKO either water/flying type but does net a 2HKO on M-Aerodactyl (the priority saves us). Rock Throw (and by extension Smack Down and Rock Slide) do not allow us to outright kill M-Aerodactyl, but make it probable that we can kill the others with Stealth Rock up. Rock Tomb and Rock Slide (or, going higher, Stone Edge) are just outright unacceptable due to their high damage or ability to give us a massive Continental Crush.

Given the lower viability rating of these 'mons, if we absolutely insist, Rock Throw is probably the only "safe" move. Even that is going to be ubiquitous on a 'mon that has a free 4th slot currently.

 

[cbrevan]

Hey all, its time for me to summarize discussion so far and accounce a couple of decisions I've made regarding movesets. I'll start us off with the biggest decision made, which is to disallow Flame Charge. While this may come as a shock due to the large number of sets that included it, the move itself has been heavily disputed in this thread. Now, I'm sure some people are asking why this isn't going to the poll, given what I just said. Due to how heavily it was argued, this left me with only two options with how to proceed, poll Flame Charge or disallow it. When I initially opened movesets, I made it clear that I'll be weighting overall balance similarly to pursuing our concept. To that end, I need to be sure that anything I poll or allow is balanced for this CAP. If I suspect Flame Charge may be too much for this CAP as far as balance goes, I can't in good faith put it to a poll, knowing that the voting pool of anyone with a Smogon account will be the deciding factor in a balance decision.

Both sides arguing for and against Flame Charge came to the conclusion that Flame Charge would allow 25f to function as a win condition based around boosting its speed. The argument against it was focused on providing reasoning and evidence via calcs and testing on the test server to prove that 25f with Flame Charge would be too powerful of a win condition for us to allow. Too powerful was defined as having limited counterplay against a specific archetype (offense) that would allow it to put a large amount of pressure against opposing teams. Conversely, the arguments put forward for Flame Charge focused on proving that Flame Charge would ensure 25f's viability in face of competition with other Pokemon such as Heatran in light of our stat distribution and potential counterplay in faster scarfers, priority, and defensive checks such as Tomohawk. However, the argument for allowing Flame Charge did not adequately argue the balance of the move on 25f because of their focus on competition rather than balance. They established that Flame Charge would allow 25f to fulfill a niche we haven't seen yet as a Flame Charge set up booster, but did explain why it would be balanced in light of the arguments against it. As a result, I have doubts over the balance of Flame Charge, which is why I have decided to disallow it rather than poll it.

Another question some may ask may be: "Why don't you give us a day to argue for the balance of Flame Charge now that we know what you're looking for". My response to that is I posted clear criteria on what I want us to examine when I opened up movesets, and people have had the entire time since then to argue for the balance of Flame Charge. Discussion has also proven to be bogged down with Flame Charge available as a discussion point, as proven by the last two pages of Flame Charge centered discussion. For the sake of making progress, I made a judgement call on Flame Charge. Our task now is to examine potential movesets in light of the lack of Flame Charge on 25f and to determine what other roles it can perform.

I've also decided to disallow all physical Rock-type coverage, including moves such as Rock Tomb, Rock Slide, Stone Edge. It was generally agreed that Rock-type coverage, specifically Rock Tomb, negatively interacts with out threatlist, and that the potential upsides of Rock Tomb is overshadowed by access to Bulldoze.

Now Defunct Flame Charge sets

Name: Flame Charge?
Move 1: Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: Hidden Power Ice
Move 4: Flame Charge / Toxic
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Naive

Name: Sweeper
Move 1: Flare blitz
Move 2: Bonemerang
Move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Electric
Move 4: Flame Charge
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty

Name: Speed-Boosting Sweeper
Move 1: Flame Charge
Move 2: Earthquake / Bulldoze
Move 3: HP Ice
Move 4: Flame Wheel / Stealth Rock / Toxic
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb / Groundium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly / Hasty

Move 1: Flame Charge
Move 2: Bulldoze / Earthquake
Move 3: Hidden Power (Ice) / Hidden Power (Electric)
Move 4: Rock Slide / Flame Wheel / Overheat
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpS / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature

Name: Offensive Anti-Lead
Move 1: Stealth Rock
Move 2: Flame Charge
Move 3: Bulldoze
Move 4: HP Ice
Ability: Technician
Item: Focus Sash
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly / Hasty

Name: Resist Berry "Double Dance"
Move 1: Bulk Up
Move 2: Flame Charge
Move 3: Earthquake
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Electric
Ability: Technician
Item: Shuca Berry / Passho Berry
EVs: 192 Atk / 48 Def / 16 SpA / 252 Speed
Nature: Naive

Name: Shuca Avalanche
Move 1: Flame Charge
Move 2: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 3: Bone Rush / Earthquake
Move 4: Avalanche
Ability: Technician
Item: Shuca Berry
EVs: 252 Atk / 48 Def / 208 Speed
Nature: Jolly

Even though Flame Charge is now disallowed, I wanted to include some of the now defunct sets to show how they all share the common theme of STABs + Ice coverage. The use of resist berries and inclusion of tech choices such as Avalanche and Bulk Up are also worth discussing on movesets, especially if we choose to pursue the direction of a pure wallbreaker via high powered STAB moves and/or set up.

Everything Else

Name: Soft Sand Stealth Rocks
Move 1: Stealth Rocks
Move 2: Bonemerang
Move 3: Flare Blitz
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice
Ability: Technician
Item: Soft Sand
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Naive

Name: Bonemerang Boi (Utility Attacker)
Move 1: Bonemerang
Move 2: Flame Wheel
Move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Morning Sun
Move 4: Spikes
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe or 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty / Jolly

Name: Z-move wallbreaker
Move 1: Flare blitz
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: Substitute
Move 4: Swords dance / Fire Blaze Kick
Ability: Blaze
Item: Firium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Name: Choice Band Utility Trapper
Move 1: Flare Blitz
Move 2: Bulldoze
Move 3: Twineedle
Move 4: Pursuit
Ability: Technician
Item: Choice Band
EVs: 236 Atk / 32 Def / 240 Speed
Nature: Adamant

Name: Chip Pressure Attacker
Move 1: Fake Out
Move 2: Bulldoze
Move 3: Flame Wheel / Hidden Power Ice
Move 4: Morning Sun
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant / Lonely

Name: Hidden Power Lead
Move 1: Stealth Rock
Move 2: Fire Blast / Incinerate
Move 3: Mud Shot
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Electric
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA/ 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Modest

Starting off with the move I'm the most uneasy with, Bonemerang is included on the first two sets. Both sets seek to use 25f as an offensive hazard setter backed by the power of Bonemerang. Bonemerang, after the Technician boost, is an effective 150 BP STAB move, which allows 25f to put a lot of pressure on grounded Pokemon to switch into it. With Flame Charge out of the discussion, I'd like us to analyze the impact of Bonemerang on our threatlist in greater detail, and ascertain whether or not the significant spike in damage output it gives is necessary and balanced for 25f.

In a similiar vein, I would like us to discuss Bone Rush in similiar terms as Bonemerang. While its been largely ignored in discussion, Bone Rush is a Technician boosted STAB move with a wide damage variance, with 75 BP at its lowest and 187.5 at its highest. For reference, 2 hits is 75 BP, 3 hits is 112.5 BP, 4 hits is 150 BP, and 5 hits is 187.5 BP, all after Technician is applied. Because of the damage ceiling it provides, I'd like us to include Bone Rush when we look at Bonemerang due to their similiar role as high BP Ground STAB options.

Another potential discussion point lies in Swords Dance and other attack boosting status moves. Set up would allow 25f to definitively pursue a role as a wallbreaker. More calcs and more discussion will be needed if we wish to pursue set up as an option, as well as analysis with other Bonemerang and Bone Rush if we wish to consider those moves. For set up, its important that we examine movesets in terms of counterplay as well, so center calcs around our threatlist. Additionally, its a good question to ask, is set up needed for 25f to be viable?

I also included a special attacking set to showcase the potential usage of Technician and moves such as Mud Shot and various formes of Hidden Power. What benefits do special attacking moves bring to 25f? Are they significant enough to see usage alongside its physical options?

Other moves I'd like us to discuss in greater detail is Fake Out and other forms of Technician boosted priority, Morning Sun and other recovery moves, and entry hazards such as Stealth Rock. These moves have the potential to open up new roles for 25f and I'd like us to discuss them as such.

 

[Warren685]

You know I haven't seen moves like Fell Stinger, Confusion or Clear Smog been discuss in the thread, We have enough speed to become a sort of pseudo hazer and with Fell stinger we can possible use it in super offensive sets when we manage to get a KO with it. Both moves seem very pro concept to work with so it'll be interesting to see how it works with our C&C and such.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Bonemerang and Bone Rush huh? Alright, lets have a look.

I'll cover Bone Rush first since it has the biggest initial problem: its inconsistency. Although it can consistently become stronger than even Bonemerang, at 187.5 BAP, it can also be consistently worse than every other Ground-type option that has been proposed at 75 BAP. Alongside its 90% accuracy, it has the potential to be incredibly inconsistent.

Inconsistently is a pretty huge problem for CAPf, as suddenly getting a 5 hit of it causes a lot of different matchups to go on their heads. Chansey, being the massive blob that it is, is supposed to be able to stop us quite consistently. But if CAPf suddenly gets a 5-hit of the move, we can suddenly 2HKO with even a 2-hit.

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bone Rush (5 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 485-570 (69 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I don't have any specific examples for this, but because of how common it can occur, it also has the possibility of whiffing and missing out on a KO, since it can either miss or become so weak that it can't deal enough damage to deal the KOs, with a decent chance for either one to happen. Some may argue the usage of other inaccurate moves like Fire Blast and users of certain multi-hit moves like Greninja with Water Shuriken, stating that they can be inconsistent but still find use. Fire Blast and friends do have the risk of missing, but in most instances it is fairly reliable, and more resembles the accuracy issue than anything. Water Shuriken is admittedly inconsistent by itself, but becomes 3 hits only after the Battle Bond transformation, and you don't see it use outside of the Choice Specs Ash set.

Generally, Pokemon players prefer consistency when doing Pokemon battles, and is one of the biggest reasons why you don't see a lot of multi-hit moves use without Skill Link. Secondary effects that only has the chance of occuring usually below 30% (Lava Plume and Scald are used consistently because of their decent chance to burn, making it apart of their strategy) are usually seen as uncompetitive, as they can significantly sway the match in an unpreventable and unfair way. Bone Rush can sway in a lot of different ways, both positive and negative for a side, making it even more unfair and inconsistent than some really annoying stuff like freezing. I think it would be too much of a risk for people to actually use, and I think can swing matches based on just a small chance. Its fundamentally uncompetitive to use.

Onto Bonemerang, it has the incredible power that Bone Rush has, but with much more consistency linked to it. Standing at a shocking 150 BAP, it allows CAPf to break through some stuff. Here's just a few.

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 406-484 (133.9 - 159.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Arghonaut: 272-322 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Keep in mind that Arghonaut is supposed to be a decent check to CAPf, which is slightly concerning. It can still pressure us with Earthquake and any bit of humidity murders CAPf, but it could win the 1v1.

Because a lot of our C&C is full of Pokemon immune to Ground, and our Pressure list is mostly stuff that is weak to our STABs anyway, it doesn't effect too much, and most of those lists will remain the same. My biggest concern, however, is that Pyroak, the biggest grounded counter without Stealth Rock in the equation, is suddenly able to be beaten if we go with a Choice Band, which is totally possible considering is great Speed tier.

252 Atk Choice Band Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 236-282 (53.2 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

While this doesn't threaten everything, this is personally concerning. I think I will want to see more calcs before coming to a verdict, but I am slightly leaning to it being too strong.

 

[Deck Knight]

I view Bone Rush in the same vein as I do Focus Blast. It's an inaccurate move that sees usage because of its huge upside, and Bone Rush does have a huge upside.

Accuracy aside, Bone Rush has a 33% chance of only being 75 BP. When making battle decisions, you should be banking on the 112.5 BP you have a 67% chance of meeting or exceeding. I liken 2-hit Bone Rush to the 30% chance Focus Blast has of missing, but for obvious reasons hitting 75 BP is better than missing entirely. 25f also has alternatives in EQ and Bulldoze that are 100 BP and a Z-Platform or 90 BP and speed control respectively. Bone Rush is their high-risk, high reward power counterpart. Bonemerrang by contrast is just stupidly powerful and almost a Z-move in its own right. Bonemerrang has literally zero drawbacks other than 90 acc, a small price to pay for doing everything Earthquake can do and more. Like, 50% more.

And as to accuracy, there's a support move that lowers the opponent's evasion and works well with what 25f Pressures. I present to you a Defog set:

Moveset Submission:

Name: Soft Sand Defog
Move 1: Defog
Move 2: Bone Rush
Move 3: Flare Blitz / Fire Blast / Overheat
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Stealth Rock
Ability: Technician
Item: Soft Sand
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Hasty

• Defog does double duty as anti-hazard on a Fire type neutral to rocks that can force out a lot of hazard setters. Defog also removes Screens making 25f an effective switchin to all types of Tapu Koko.
• Bone Rush gets an effective acc boost from Defog's Evade drop, and has the highest drawback-free damage potential on the set.
• Flare Blitz works off the massive attack investment, however its recoil isn't great on top of any hazard damage it has to take before Defogging. Fire Blast or Overheat targets the lower SpD of many hazard setters and also benefit from Defog's Evade drop. Overheat has more power, but if you needed to HP Ice after using your fire move, Fire Blast is better.
• Hidden Power Ice to force out or keep out hazard setters like Landorus-T, or alternatively set your own hazard in Stealth Rock as you force out most other setters.

 

[jas61292]

Ok, so we don't have Flame Charge. That's fine. But that means we may need to get a bit crazy if we want to be a worthwhile Pokemon. I mean, if you look at us and only assume the more common STAB moves that have been talked about, Hidden Power, and the other normal moves for a Fire/Ground mon that happens to be a starter, we are... well... not a good Pokemon. Sure, it breaks important cores like Heatran/Jumbao, but why would you actually use it over other mons that do that, such as... well... Heatran itself. While that is just one example, it shows a Pokemon that can fill the main role people are looking at, but do it with more power and better bulk. This is a common trend for 25f. It is at an awkward speed tier where everything else in that general range is far stronger or far bulkier than it is, if not both. Since it can't compete with stats, if it is actually going to find itself to be worth using, it has to pack some utility that can't be found elsewhere.

And since it seems that the path we are headed down is one of a wall breaker, I say we should break some fucking walls. With Bonemarang, we can actually do that. Earthquake can do some damage to frail Pokemon or those weak to it, but bulkier walls that take it at least neutral, such as Pyroak, just don't care. And a number of great mons are straight up immune to ground. When you click your ground move and it actually hits, we need it to count. Bonemarang will let us smash through walls like Clefable and Arghonaut in two turns, removing them as outright counters, while leaving the latter as a check that can scare us out if it has most of its health. It can even make Tomohawk think twice about Roosting, as a predicted Bonemarang can knock away more health than it heals, item depending. This is terrifying power, and is not to be taken lightly.

Some of the Pokemon I mentioned are explicitly from our list of checks and counters, so it may seem like a poor idea to be threatening them so hard. But I believe it is absolutely necessary. We are threatened heavily by just about every good offensive Pokemon in the book. Far beyond what our C&C list would suggest. Crucibelle, Greninja, Tapu Lele, Volkraken, Hawlucha, Kartana, Krilowatt, Medicham, Pajantom, Pinsir, Syclant. These are all Pokemon in just the A or A+ viability rankings who were not in our list of checks and counters that either outspeed us or are frequently scarf, and can outright OHKO or do so after just a bit of prior damage, such as Stealth Rock (and therefore fit the definition of a check). Furthermore, most of these Pokemon resist or are immune to one of our STABs, making them potential predicted switch ins. As we rely on a STAB that has tons of things immune to it, if we want to be worth a team slot, then when that Ground STAB hits something, we need it to die. Otherwise we will find ourselves forced out at best, KOed at worst, without having done anything. What I like most about Bonemarang is that it helps eliminate a number of these prediction based switch ins. For instance, if 25f is holding a Soft Sand, Kartana can switch into a predicted EQ. It will lose over half its health, but it will make it in alive and well, with the ability to outspeed and threaten a KO. Bonmarang on the other hand has the potential to OHKO Kartana after SR. This power threat reduces the number of viable switch ins, giving us a better chance to actually achieve something in a battle.

With all that said, Bonemarang does come with one interesting downside, that I actually see as somewhat of an upside for our purposes. It does not have a worthwhile Z Move. Tectonic Rage off of Bonemarang is a pathetic 100 BP. The same as the move itself without Technician. This means that anything that can handle a normal Bonemarang, such as a defensive Pyroak or Mega Slowbro can wall without worry, while bulky checks like Arghonaut and other bulky waters don't need to worry about being blown away before getting at least one attack off. More generally stated, it lets the few pure defensive checks we will have remain defensive checks much easier than if this were any other 150 BP move.

 

[snake]

First, I'd like to demonstrate why, as annoying for concept as it might be, Bonemerang and Bone Rush are super strong and are likely broken on CAP25f.

Name: Bones the Metagame
Move 1: Flame Wheel
Move 2: Bulldoze
Move 3: Hidden Power Ice
Move 4: Bonemerang / Bone Rush
Ability: Technician
Item: Choice Band / Soft Sand / Life Orb / Shuca Berry
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly / Naive

- Flame Wheel is a reliable Fire-type STAB that is necessary to tackle Pokemon like Celsteela. Note that by excluding Flare Blitz, I am showing that Bonemerang and Bone Rush's power are rather overbearing with even just Flame Wheel.
- Bulldoze doesn't miss like Bonemerang and Bone Rush and drags down offensive switch-ins' speed.
- Technician Hidden Power Ice, even with Choice Band, allows CAP25f to smack Landorus-T for extremely reliable damage, as well as other uncommon Fire/Ground resists like Mega Aerodactyl and Salamence.
- Bonemerang and Bone Rush would act as more powerful Ground-type STABs for when Bulldoze's power isn't enough.
- Choice Band makes Bonemerang and Bone Rush hit things with really stupid power. Groundium Z makes Bonemerang a nuke; though it isn't as helpful for Bone Rush. Soft Sand provides a general power boost to Bulldoze and the bone moves. Life Orb notably helps Hidden Power Ice more powerful. Shuca Berry improves CAP25f's match up with offensive teams by tanking Earthquake and Earth Power.

Let's look at Bonemerang first, as I think that one is the most explicitly broken. On one hand, if we look at the threatlist, we see that Pyroak and Arghonaut should be surefire counters, and I don't think that this is too farfetched. Pyroak primarily runs physically defensive sets, and Arghonaut runs a mixed defensive set. However with Bonemerang, we deal a lot of damage, even as we change CAP25f's item.

Calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 236-282 (53.2 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 188-224 (42.4 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 158-188 (35.6 - 42.4%) -- approx. 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 206-244 (46.5 - 55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Arghonaut: 312-368 (75.3 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Arghonaut: 252-296 (60.8 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Arghonaut: 272-322 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 124 Def Arghonaut: 210-248 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Bonemerang knocks down two of our counters quite handily, and even if we run Shuca Berry, we still pressure them massively. If we bar Flare Blitz, Zapdos becomes a semi-reliable answer to CAP25f, but it still gets 2HKOed by Hidden Power Ice after Stealth Rock damage...Bonemerang is really scary for defensive teams, and while this is meant to be a wallbreaker, this move makes me really uncomfortable with how much damage it pulls off. It literally just breaks anything that stands in its way. Think about it another way. This is a Ground-type, sub-breaking Head Smash that's backed up with Fire- and Ice-type coverage.

252 Atk Crucibelle-Mega Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 253-298 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 272-324 (79.7 - 95%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This move has just a 10% miss chance too, and, when Soft Sand-boosted, it's more powerful than Mega Crucibelle's Head Smash. I'm feeling a hard pass on Bonemerang - CAP25f doesn't need this much power.

-------

Now, I want to show why Bone Rush, despite its damage variance, is also REALLY powerful and that we should be wary of it.

Bone Rush is interesting. Take a chart for

1/3 of the time it hits 2 times (75 BP)
Technician Bulldoze (90 BP)
Earthquake (100 BP)
1/3 of the time it hits 3 times (112.5 BP)
1/6 of the time it hits 4 times - Bonemerang (150 BP)
1/6 of the time it hits 5 times (187.5 BP)

If you average out all the chances with the tech-boosted base powers, you get about 120 Base Power every time you click Bone Rush.

However, it's hard to plan for Bone Rush. If you're using Bone Rush, you sit there and pray that you hit all 5 times. If you're tanking it, you sit there and pray that it hits only twice. Part of me says that it's more balanced than Bonemerang because it's more often than not being weaker than it, but on the other hand, sometimes it's hitting even harder, and it just sounds really awkward to play against. In a game with CAP25f, everything comes down to Bone Rush hits. I need to sit on this one some more.

-------

tl;dr, Bonemerang is actually stupid with how hard it hits everything, especially in combination with Fire-type STAB and Hidden Power Ice, and Bone Rush's huge damage variance pushes it into Bonemerang range (read: very very bad) and sounds super unfun to play against since games will come down to: "Did I hit Bone Rush enough times?" or "Did I get hit by too few Bone Rush hits?"

-------

Alright, let's conservatively assume that Bonemerang and Bone Rush are not allowed...these are the movesets I can see. While some people might say "why would I use CAP25f in this case" - think about recent metagame trends. Jumbao + Heatran and Jumbao + Celesteela are just a couple of the cores that CAP25f eats alive - it's the same reason why offensive Fidgit has seen the light of day - it eats Jumbao + Heatran.

Moveset Submission
Name: 3 Attacks + Offensive Utility
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Bulldoze
Move 3: Hidden Power Ice / Toxic
Move 4: Stealth Rock / Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
Ability: Technician
Item: Shuca Berry
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

This first moveset targets offensive teams harder.

• Flare Blitz is a powerful STAB that I still need to calc for, but Flame Wheel has definitely shown to be good.
• Bulldoze does the speed control thing in a lot more of a balanced way than Flame Charge, since you can actually revenge CAP25f if it nabs a kill with it.
• Hidden Power Ice donks Landorus-T.
• Stealth Rock is great offensive utility and would give CAP25 a more distinct niche.
• Will-O-Wisp cripples offensive switch-ins that might be able to hit CAP25f hard.
• Toxic makes Mega Latios sad on the switch-in, as well as various other bulky switch-ins like Arghonaut, Pyroak, and Tomohawk.
• Shuca Berry means Choice Band Earthquake Syclant, Choice Scarf Landorus-T, or Earth Power Krilowatt cannot KO you immediately.

Moveset Submission
Name: 3 Attacks Breaker
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Earthquake
Move 3: Hidden Power Ice
Move 4: Toxic / Stealth Rock
Ability: Technician
Item: Soft Sand / Groundium Z / Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

On the other hand, defensive teams have a harder time against this set.

• The Fire-type STAB is the same as above.
• Earthquake is used here because of the assumption of not-Bone Rush and not-Bonemerang, and it deals a hefty amount to Clefable and Arghonaut with a boosting item.
• Hidden Power Ice smacks down Landorus-T; the utility of this move cannot be understated.
• Toxic wears down Arghonaut, Pyroak, and Tomohawk, three of not-Bone Rush and not-Bonemerang CAP25f's best switch-ins.
• Stealth Rock wears down opposing teams otherwise.

Calcs for Flare Blitz to come.

 

[SHSP]

Gonna come out as Anti-Bonemerang after running some calcs. Jas's post does highlight some important stuff:

1- Offensive mons are a lot easier to check us now there's no threat of +1 speed, and
2- we need to break walls well.

Here's where I disagree with some of that, namely that Bonemerang is the way to do it. Assuming Soft Sand (so we switch moves), Jolly Nature Bonemerang, we have a VERY limited number of switchins. Going through VR, here's what we beat on switch in w/Rang:

gaze in horror

S: Lando, can beat Tomo- if we force it to roost which ends up pretty likely, we do this

Hide

252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 210-248 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- approx. 91% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

A+ to A-: Argho, Celesteela, Clef, Ferro, Heatran, Jumbao, Magearna, Chansey, Cyclohm, Fidgit, Gastrodon, Pyroak AFTER ROCKS, Scizor-M, Bulu, Pex, Zapdos (we force it to roost and destroy it; it also does max 20~ to us with HP Ice) (fun to note although neither HP Ice or Bonemerang OHKO zyg, they do similar damage)

B+ to B-: Revenankh (both defensive and BU), Sableye-M, Slowking, Tang, TTar(-M), Venusaur, Amoonguss, Garchomp, Jirachi, Mew, Mollux, Skarmory, Suicune, Fini, Gliscor

C: Aggron-M, Hippo, Alomomola AFTER ROCKS, Muk-A, Reuni, Quag.

This leaves us with the following as switchins that commonly fit on defensive builds:

GAZE

Mega-Slowbro: this dies switching in with us at +1 from Work Up, and the base form can't take 2, however the base form can Regenerator out.

Hide

252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro: 188-224 (47.7 - 56.8%) -- approx. 94.5% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 132-156 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Camerupt Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 194-230 (49.2 - 58.3%) -- approx. 98.8% chance to 2HKO

Mantine: Can't roost, but it's just gonna scald us, relatively safe bar taking 25% from Rocks in addition to a possible chunk leaving it low for the next mon.

Cresselia: In a worst case scenario, +1 Blitz 2hko's this, but we take an absurd amount of recoil back:

Hide

+1 252 Atk Camerupt Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Cresselia: 232-274 (52.3 - 61.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(24.1 - 28.5% recoil damage)

Rotom-W: most solid check of the bunch

Pelipper: More or less Rain team limited.

Gyarados: Best Water/Flying check listed.

Mega Lati@s: Should be solid checks, as they can roost safely as well as shrugging off even +1 HP Ice.

So we have 8 Defensive Switch Ins, that eat 2 hits and force us out. 3 of the lot have to fear the rare/meme HP Electric and take 25% from switching in on Rocks. One is limited exclusively to Rain, more or less. Two fear a 2HKO in a Worst-Case scenario. Three arguably fit best on offense.

If we get Bonemerang, we're ripping almost every defensive team apart. They're gonna be seriously weakened by having to run offensive checks that can eat one/several hits, or punish over predictions. In checking 25f, the rest of the matchups of that team vs other stuff is gonna plummet. I find it WAY too strong. To better our offensive matchup, Bulldoze seems to keep the idea of Flame Charge forcing stuff to revenge and giving the metagame less ways to switch in offensively on this without impacting the entirety of the defensive metagame.

 

[Wenderz]

Absolutely agree with jas here : Bonemerang might be kind of necessary here if we want to be a reliable wallbreaker that just doesn't get stopped by most significantly physically bulky-mon that isn't weak to our STAB or HP Ice. If we disallow it (and Bone Rush), it would mean that we're are likely to fail the concept on purpose, as I don't think that Bulldoze would very helpful since most faster offensive Mon that would ever switch on CAP 25f (Latios-M, Hydreigon, Stratagem...) are immune to Ground.

Now some people told me on Discord that viability (and it means not being broken) should be a priority over concept, which I can understand, but this makes me want to support Bonemerang even more, as once again, huge BP moves are very suited for a wallbreaker. Flare Blitz is already very powerful, sure, and it could our main attacking move since it's the hardest hitting, but the recoil-damage, especially when coupled with Life Orb, is a big issue in my opinion because it means that CAP 25f is going to kill itself when trying to break through opposing defensive Pokemons, and I insist on the "trying" :

252 Atk Life Orb Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 312-368 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO

As long as it doesn't switch on Flare Blitz with SR ups, Chansey is able to recover with Soft-Boiled until 25f dies from recoil. Mew, Clefable (we agreed on the C&C thread that this one shouldn't be considered as a check), Pyroak... are in a very similar case. Bonemerang invalidates some our checks listed, and can be very scary if you don't have an appropriate answer that at least resists Ground-Type (Slowbro-Mega being an exception), but CAP 25F wouldn't be the only wallbreaker in this case. I've submitted a C&C of a CAP 25f with Bonemerang on the thread, which includes both defensive and offensive answers, and I really don't think it's too small for CAP 25f to be considered broken. It's much bigger than wallbreakers like Medicham-Mega, Mawile-Mega and Hoopa-U, that we need to be able to compete to be worthy of a moveslot. CAP 25f has generally more defensive utility and thus can be brought more easily, but they also have their fair share of advantages, like priorities, coverages options, or not having any clear answers... With such Pokemon being allowed, Bonemerang CAP 25f shouldn't be that extraordinary of a wallbreaker.

 

[Reviloja753]

Moveset Submission
Name: Resist Berry "Double Dance":
Move 1: Bulk Up
Move 2: Flame Charge Flame Wheel
Move 3: Earthquake Bulldoze
Move 4: Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Electric
Ability: Technician
Item: Shuca Berry / Passho Berry
EVs: 192 Atk / 48 Def / 16 SpA / 252 Speed
Nature: Naive

This is simply an edit to the currently dead Double Dance set. Bulldoze isn’t as effective for this set as Flame Charge, but Flame Charge is banned, so it’s fine.

Bone Rush is probably okay, as the high powers of 150 and 187.5 only have a 1/3 chance of occurring combined; banking on that happening consistently would be unwise, where as banking on three hits for a multi-hit move usually is safer, not to mention Bone Rush has 90% accuracy. I could go either way, however, as I understand inconsistencies can ruin 25f. I would say that I am beginning to lean towards banning Bone Rush, but I am not completely sure. Bonemerang should totally be banned though. In terms of Stealth Rock, I have yet to see an argument as to why we should get it. I’m also unsure if we want to risk Flying-type checks to get pinned by HP Ice such as Zapdos.

 

[hawk1113]

Another potential discussion point lies in Swords Dance and other attack boosting status moves. Set up would allow 25f to definitively pursue a role as a wallbreaker. More calcs and more discussion will be needed if we wish to pursue set up as an option, as well as analysis with other Bonemerang and Bone Rush if we wish to consider those moves. For set up, its important that we examine movesets in terms of counterplay as well, so center calcs around our threatlist. Additionally, its a good question to ask, is set up needed for 25f to be viable?

Let's start with a set I thought was ridiculous but doesn't seem ridiculous post-calcs:

Set Name: All Worked Up (Boosting Wallbreaker)
Move 1: Work Up
Move 2: Bonemerang/Bone Rush/Earthquake/Bulldoze
Move 3: Flare Blitz
Move 4: Hidden Power: Ice
Nature: Hasty
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Item: Soft Sand/Normalium-Z/Groundium-Z/Firium-Z

• 25f will theoretically find itself with frequent free turns given its strong neutral coverage against the meta. Work Up is a ubiquitous move on starters, and is frequently irrelevant competitively. On 25f, however, the SpA boost is not wasted due to our access to Technician Hidden Power.
• I slashed ALL the ground moves because I intend to calc them all. I am really really upset that I think Bonemerang and Bone Rush HAVE to get the axe, so in reality it will be a choice between Bulldoze's ability to cripple a few switch-ins (such as Scarf Jumbao, Scarf Tapu Lele, Garchomp, and Greninja) and another move (probably Earthquake)'s superior power and ability to grant us possible access to Groundium-Z.
• Flare Blitz is the fire move of choice for this set, giving necessary breaking power versus Zapdos and Celesteela compared to Flame Wheel.
• Hidden Power: Ice offers devastating coverage versus Zygarade and Landorus-T, and nets a clean OHKO versus both after we get to +1. It also enables us to break Zapdos without recoil after a few boosts. While it doesn't break our other counters like Latias, Latios, and M-Aerodactly alone, it does mean they have to fear prior damage.
• A Hasty nature was chosen over a neutral one because our normal bulk is so poor we're going to die to a stiff breeze anyways. With a positive nature we reach 322 speed, enough to outspeed all non-Scarf Landorus.
• Soft Sand is our preferred item, as our Ground STAB is our best move due to lack of recoil. Normalium-Z offers a one-time chance to get to +2/+1 which improves our match-up versus Pyroak and makes breaking somewhat easier in general. If we run Earthquake, Groundium-Z or Firium-Z gives us a one-time nuke.

So one thing I am struggling with is the idea of "Magical Christmas Land". I'm a Magic: The Gathering player, and "Magical Christmas Land" is the idea of basically looking at something under the most optimal conditions only and assuming it is broken as a result. "Man if I have this card, and this card, and this card, AND this card, AND my opponent controls no creatures, I just win the game! Lol broken." I find a few of the calcs and topics of discussion in thread disingenuous because I think ANY offensive 'mon looks busted if it is fighting opponents who have a ton of prior damage, with Rocks up on the opponents side, and at full health, with a boost or Choice Item improving its power. I want to make sure that, in planning for 25f being "balanced" under optimal conditions, we aren't making it actually worthless in practice.

At the same time, 25f does have real power. The argument for keeping Bonemerang and Bone Rush has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt both that we're balanced with them and that we need them - we have to show that it doesn't overly jeapordize the C&C list and also show that we are going to be unable to do our job if we're stuck with Earthquake and Bulldoze as our strongest ground type STAB. Ditto anything stronger than Work Up, which is why I decided to start with it as opposed to more powerful and traditional boosting moves such as Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Nasty Plot, or Bulk Up.

So, let's do some calcs to answer a few questions.

Question #1: Is Bulldoze "Enough" to hit all our relevant threatlist (M-Sableye and Tapu Koko are the big ones I'll be checking as I'm pretty sure Mud Slap has a better than fair chance of OHKOing most of the 4x weak mons on the list otherwise) AND beat up the checks mentioned by jas that aren't ground-immune or fire-weak: Crucibelle, Greninja, Tapu Lele, Volkraken, Krilowatt, M-Medicham, Pajantom

calcs

Versus Sableye:
252 Atk Abomasnow Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Sableye-Mega: 148-175 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Sableye-Mega: 135-159 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Sableye-Mega: 222-264 (73.2 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Sableye-Mega: 201-237 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Abomasnow Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Sableye-Mega: 222-262 (73.2 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Sableye-Mega: 336-396 (110.8 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Sableye-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 141-166 (44.4 - 52.3%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO

So this seems to indicate we NEED Bonemerang against M-Sableye. Without a boost we can't even outpace recover with Bulldoze, which forces us to spam Flare Blitz instead and rack up recoil. We also take a boatload to knock off.

Versus Tapu Koko:
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 372-440 (132.3 - 156.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bulldoze is fine versus Tapu Koko. No set has the bulk to stomach it. We're rarely outspeeding it, but no set runs a way to his us for more than 33% or so.

Versus Crucibelle:
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Crucibelle-Mega: 828-976 (233.8 - 275.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bulldoze absolutely demolishes Crucibelle. The issue is that at 359 Speed, Cruci outpaces even a Hasty 25f and OHKOs with Head Smash. With our speed tier, there's not a whole lot we can do about this without some way like Dragon Dance, Tailwind, Agility, or Webs support to boost our speed. It's always going to check us and force us out, but it'd be insane to try and switch in on us as the risk of us nailing it is too high.

Versus Greninja:
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 226-267 (79.2 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 225-265 (78.9 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 378-446 (132.6 - 156.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 374-444 (131.2 - 155.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bonemerang clean OHKOs Gren, but it's a wash - Bulldoze does not OHKO but the speed drop lets us outpace it and kill it (unless it is Scarf Greninja) on the second swing (we also have a decent shot at a OHKO with rocks or spikes up). Ash-Greninja is more dire, as we must OHKO it to not die to Water Shuriken. Consider it another point in Bonemerang's favor.

Versus Tapu Lele:
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 207-244 (73.6 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Abomasnow Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 229-271 (81.4 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 374-444 (131.2 - 155.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow in Psychic Terrain: 271-321 (85.4 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Similar to Greninja, it's ultimately a wash. We outspeed Tapu Lele by base, and with a speed-positive nature we also outspeed it after a Bulldoze hit even if its Scarfed. This makes her a shaky check/counter to us, as if it comes in on a Bulldoze it dies. It doesn't love coming in on Flare Blitz either.

Versus Volkraken
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volkraken: 392-464 (114.6 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bulldoze clean OHKOs the squishy squid, so the speed drop is irrelevant. If it comes in on a fire move though, we're forced to switch out or die. This would be true of Bonemerang as well.

Versus Krilowat:
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Krilowatt: 422-498 (95 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Krilowatt: 708-832 (159.4 - 187.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Stop me if you've heard this one before; Bulldoze versus Bonemerang on the switch-in is irrelevant. We outspeed it and KO it if the dice don't fall our way with Bulldoze, and we

M-Medicham:
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 186-220 (71.2 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Abomasnow Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 207-244 (79.3 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 308-366 (118 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Same deal again. We outspeed if it comes in on Bulldoze allowing us to 2HKO it or force it out, we OHKO if we had rocks or prior damage if it comes in on Blitz, and we would OHKO if we had Bonemerang but we don't need it to make it fear switching in.

Pajantom (Offensive)
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 216-255 (69.9 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pajantom: 360-426 (116.5 - 137.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
We outspeed if it comes in on Bulldoze, netting a 2HKO, and we OHKO with Bonemerang.

jas did mention Syclant in his post, so I also calced whether Bonemerang made a big difference there.
Syclant
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Syclant: 109-129 (38.6 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Syclant: 182-216 (64.5 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Abomasnow Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Syclant: 972-1144 (344.6 - 405.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Syclant Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 286-338 (90.2 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
So, it's the story in reverse - neither ground move can kill Syclant at +0. Here, Bulldoze wins the day with the speed drop letting us get the fire move off, while Bonemerang forces us to switch or pray on a 50-50 as we stay in. Flare Blitz DESTROYS it, as expected.

So to summarize:

• Bulldoze is "enough" against Tapu Koko, Volkraken, and M-Crucibelle. We beat Tapu Koko no matter what, and for the other two we kill them if they come in on either ground move and we are forced out if they come in on a Fire or HP.
• Bonemerang also doesn't really matter against Non-Scarf, Non-Shuriken Greninja, M-Medicham, Offensive Pajantom, Tapu Lele (even scarfed) and Krilowat. It OHKOs which is nice, but we 2HKO or force it out with Bulldoze thanks to the speed drop. Some of these also take a boatload from Flare Blitz, some do not, but all of them force us out if they come in on a non-ground move - it just doesn't matter what ground move we carry. jas didn't mention it, but for the curious it's a similar story against Kerfluffle; they die on a predicted ground move either because of the OHKO or the speed drop, but live and KO us on a Fire move.
• Our Syclant match-up is actually BETTER with Bulldoze than it is with Bonemerang.
• Bonemerang is thus only important in two places - to ensure we can OHKO Ash-Greninja and Scarf Greninja on the predicted switch, and to muscle through M-Sableye without taking a billion recoil or Knock Off damage.

That's 9/11 'mons or sets we can beat with just Bulldoze, but M-Sableye is a key matchup as it is listed as a 'mon we're supposed to switch in on and threaten out. So, now the question is, do we need to beat M-Sableye so badly that we can handle any balance concerns that may arise from the inclusion of Bonemerang?

Question 2: We have four reliable flying counters in Pelipper, Gyarados, and the Lati@as. We have three flying checks in Landorus-T, Defensive Tomohawk, and M-Aerodactyl. The rest of our C&C list is all grounded and includes Chansey, Clefable, Pyroak, M-Swampert, and Arghonaut. I'll also look at Azumarill, and Tomohawk since it sometimes has to "land" to heal. How many of these are threatened by Bonemerang? I think threatening a few is fine, especially since a wallbreaker should be able to break Chansey and Clefable is a 'mon we want to have a complex relationship with, but breaking ALL of them is a little more concerning:

calcs

Chansey
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 360-426 (51.2 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 216-255 (30.7 - 36.3%) -- 56% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 360-426 (51.2 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Abomasnow Flare Blitz vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 358-423 (50.9 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 322-381 (45.8 - 54.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 540-636 (76.9 - 90.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Abomasnow Flare Blitz vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 478-564 (68 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 432-508 (61.5 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 720-848 (102.5 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Once we're at +1, we can outpace Chansey's Softboiled with Bulldoze + Flare Blitz. Bonemerang does make our life much easier, as it outpaces Softboiled without a boost and just mangles her once we get any set-up done. Without Bonemearng, we are likely to get nailed by a Toxic or allow Chansey to set up Rocks which is less than ideal. +2 allows us to clean OHKO Chansey with Bonemerang, so that's a Swords Dance consideration.

Clefable:
252 Atk Abomasnow Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 160-189 (40.6 - 47.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 144-169 (36.5 - 42.8%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 240-284 (60.9 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Abomasnow Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 237-280 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 356-422 (90.3 - 107.1%) -- approx. 43.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Abomasnow Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 318-375 (80.7 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 286-337 (72.5 - 85.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 476-564 (120.8 - 143.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
Both Bulldoze and Flare Blitz fail to outpace Softboiled recovery without a boost and will be a long hack-a-thon after getting to +1. Bonemerang again allows us to pressure Clefable from the word go, and only gets to a clean OHKO after getting to +2.

Pyroak
252 Atk Abomasnow Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 127-150 (28.6 - 33.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 114-135 (25.7 - 30.4%) -- 1.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 188-224 (42.4 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Abomasnow Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 189-223 (42.6 - 50.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 169-201 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 284-336 (64.1 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Abomasnow Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 252-297 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 228-268 (51.4 - 60.4%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pyroak: 378-446 (85.3 - 100.6%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
Pyroak is listed as a counter because with Leftovers our primary moves are only 4HKOs, and those numbers ignore Pyroak's ability to augment its healing with Protect, Synthesis, and Giga Drain meaning even if it has to manually switch-in it can take a beating. This remains the case at +1 if we don't have Bonemerang as it'll get a turn to heal off damage, but it does get much shakier. Bonemerang takes it to a shaky place too, as it's a 3HKO unboosted which forces Pyroak into a "synthesis and pray" mode.

M-Swampert
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert-Mega: 150-177 (43.9 - 51.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert-Mega: 252-296 (73.9 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert-Mega: 225-265 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert-Mega: 372-440 (109 - 129%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert-Mega: 298-352 (87.3 - 103.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swampert-Mega: 498-588 (146 - 172.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
M-Swampert is a bit different, as it outspeeds us in the rain and instantly disintegrates us if it gets an attack off. As a result, our Fire STAB is irrelevant. Once again this is a place where Bulldoze is arguably better, as if my calculations are correct a Hasty/Jolly 25f will outspeed M-Swampert at -1 even in the rain. We only have an 11% chance at a 2HKO but can run Life Orb if we really need to. At +1 it makes less of a difference as now Bulldoze needs no support while Bonemerang just straight OHKOs, but this is also a matchup where if we boost and M-Swampert comes in, we just have to switch so I'm not sure how often or how reliably we'll get to +1.

Arghonaut
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 169-201 (40.8 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arghonaut: 284-336 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Bonemerang makes a huge difference against Arghonaut. Without it, we just straight up lose although we can take a big whack out of non-Aqua Jet Arghonaut with Bulldoze. With Bonemerang, we actually beat any Argh not running Aqua Jet and we force it to stay healthy and not take any prior damage in a match. This is by far the match-up most impacted.

Azumarill
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 135-160 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- 19.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 228-270 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Azumarill: 338-402 (83.6 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Azumarill Whirlpool vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 124-148 (39.1 - 46.6%) -- 28.5% chance to 2HKO after trapping damage

252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 196-232 (57.3 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 326-386 (95.3 - 112.8%) -- approx. 87.5% chance to OHKO
Against Perish Trap Azumarill we are in a pretty good place no matter what. Against Belly Drum Azumarill, Bonemerang is more powerful as it has an 88% chance to deny Azumarill an opportunity to Aqua Jet us to death as a counter, making it a check instead.

252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 210-248 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- approx. 91% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Abomasnow Bulldoze vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 127-150 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Abomasnow Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tomohawk: 141-166 (34 - 40%) -- 37.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Tomo can stop us from gaining boosts with Pranskster Haze. Bonemerang improves the matchup considerably, as now we have a move that hurts it more than it heals if it tries to roost. But, given our speed, it can't just not Roost especially with Rocks or Prior damage, as Flare Blitz will wear it down eventually. This should be a near-hopeless matchup but it turns into a bit of a coinflip if we have Bonemerang.

Conclusions:

• M-Swampert is better considered a check as both Bulldoze and Bonemerang hit it surprisingly hard especially at +1.
• Of the six counters analyzed here, five of them are made into checks instead if 25f has access to Bonemerang. This would leave us with only four true counters although we'd have a loooooong list of checks and 'mons capable of revenge killing us.
• Having convenient access to +2 boosting also endangers some of our C&C list, specifically Chansey, Clefable, and Pyroak.
• Easy +2 boosting is likely something to deny 25f. I suspect all boosting should be limited to Hone Claws, Work Up, Power-Up Punch, Bulk Up, and other +1 boosters. Swords Dance and Dragon Dance are likely too overwhelming.
• Certainly, CAP25f cannot have +2 boosting AND Bonemerang - I definitely think this list shows it should be one or the other.
• Is that too much? I submit it to cbrevan to decide. Kyurem-B is a similar pokemon - a Wallbreaker with overwhelming power and neutral coverage that has a painfully short list of true counters, with the ability to juke his counters with coverage. Indeed, Kyu has closer to 0 counters when allowing for coverage, just lots of checks. Kyurem-B is also a B+ Tier 'mon, relevant but far from oppressive in the CAP metagame. We have a better defensive typing for sure, with more reliable power, but sacrifice 170 BST points to get there. As frightening as Bonemerang is against our C&C list, I think it's important to remember that "few true counters" can still be balanced if a huge swath of the meta checks us.

I realize I didn't calc out Bone Rush, and now I don't wanna :(. Let me say this - Bone Rush feels actually uncompetitive and unfun. I imagine it'll be fine because it still hits all our threatlist even at 2-hits, and getting to play dice and mince everything on the ground may not be unbalanced but feels like a lot of RNG. So I vote overall nay on Bone Rush, and yes on Bonemerang.

 

[Lil' Mike]

While I am undecided on bonemerang, I gotta agree with hawk on no Bone Rush. I don’t think is broken in terms of power, but I think it’s uncompetitive by nature. A move that escalates from being mediocre to z-move levels of nuking by sheer luck of the draw seems too extreme even by pokemon standards, even if it doesn’t affect his threats and counters.

Something I was interested in with the technician ability but didn’t bring up is giving some spotlight to a few niche moves that have too low power to be used consistently on other pokemon. The main one that comes to mind here is Incinerate. It’s a STAB move with the same power as flamethrower after Technician, while having the niche benefit of scouting out and thwarting berry sets. It’s certainly not overbearing given 25f’s merely serviceable special attack, but could find some role on special/mixed sets.

 

[jas61292]

Over the course of this thread, I've made it clear that I do not believe that CAP 25f is a great pokemon. I absolutely think we need to give it something strong to make it worth using, which is why I previously argued for Bonemarang. That said, if Bonemarang is not to be allowed (which I would understand), I will be very worried for our concept. We are supposed to be customizing our movepool to coordinated it with our ability, Technician. I would personally consider us to have failed this concept if the only technician moves we ever consider using are Hidden Power and Bulldoze, as such move are practically universal for a mon of our typing, and do not represent any active coordination effort of our own.

So with that in mind, I'd like to suggest another moveset:

Moveset Submission
Move 1: Flare Blitz / Flame Wheel
Move 2: Bulldoze / Earthquake
Move 3: Hidden Power Ice
Move 4: Bullet Seed
Ability: Technician
Item: Life Orb / Choice Band / Soft Sand
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly / Adamant

• This set is an all out attacker, utilizing the best coverage it has to threaten as many things as possible.
• The most notable addition here relative to other sets is the move Bullet Seed. In exchange for not running any sort of utility option, Bullet Seed gives you a strong, technician boosted attack that can break through some of our shakier checks with ease, while still leaving in tact the majority of our other checks.
• Bullet Seed pairs especially well with Bulldoze, as one if Bulldoze's greatest weaknesses is a failure to crack bulky neutral mons as well as Earthquake can. Which ones depends heavily on your item, but examples include Arghonaut and Gastrodon. Bullet Seed takes care of that job for a number of pokemon like this, eliminating some of the downside of running Bulldoze.
• The other moves here are just the standard coverage that helps us cover as much of the metagame as possible.

To further illustrate the point of Bullet Seed, let me just throw down a simple set of calcs:

252 Atk Life Orb CAP 25f Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 126 Def Arghonaut: 181-214 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 10.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Technician CAP 25f Bulldoze vs. 252 HP / 126 Def Arghonaut: 164-192 (39.6 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Technician CAP 25f Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 126 Def Arghonaut: 273-327 (65.9 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This specific situation can vary a lot with sets; including both 25fs item and Argho's defensive investment. But the example is here to show a situation where Bulldoze seems like a significantly worse choice than EQ. EQ is not guaranteeing yourself a win, but with a bit of chip damage Argho can no longer reliably switch in. However, if running Bulldoze, it has a much easier time getting in and recovering off the damage.

However, if you are packing Bullet Seed, suddenly that disadvantage vanishes. Sure, it is rng dependent, but even with only two hits it's as strong as EQ. Three hits lets it combo with Bulldoze for the 2HKO, and four or five could let it OHKO outright.

Bullet Seed provides us with a decent, usable technician boosted move, that helps against certain checks, and makes bulky waters and grounds think twice before switching in, even after a KO, but is never going to let us run through the majority of our checks and counters.

 

[Deck Knight]

As far as actualization of the concept, here's where I currently think we're at or could be:

Non-Technician focused sets:
Flare Blitz/Earthquake/Sub/Toxic ~Shuca or Firium Z/Groundium Z

There's no way to really avoid this set. The premise is simple, use STABS and Sub to get to Blaze HP range, and use Sub/Toxic pressure to wear down checks. Especially powerful is Firium if Blaze is activated. Without a Z-Crystal though, Tech Bulldoze provides more utility than EQ in many situations. This set will exist, it will be decent for its purpose, but certainly not the most common.

Technician focused sets:
Fake Out/Bulldoze LO Set - W/Flare Blitz/Hidden Power and Morning Sun recovery.

The core of this set is the great chip potential and its ability to disrupt offensive teams. Life Orb gives all its moves a little kick and the choice of coverage to KO after chip or an absolute Fire nuke is great. The set is good enough on pressure to have room for recovery.

All-Out-Attacker Set
Comes in various forms, usually has Flare Blitz and two or more of these tech moves:
Bone Rush / Bonemerrang
Bulldoze
Flame Wheel
Hidden Power
Bullet Seed
Twineedle
Pursuit

Which I think is a decent enough suite of Tech Moves. Other options generally have been:
Bulk Up
Work Up
Defog
Stealth Rock
Morning Sun

Not yet mentioned that fall into a support category:
Clear Smog
Poison Fang
Will-o-Wisp

All in all I think 25f is shaping up to actualize its concept, and yes, I guess there will be a residual Blaze set. Really not a big deal.

 

[Roland le preaux]

You know I haven't seen moves like Fell Stinger, Confusion or Clear Smog been discuss in the thread, We have enough speed to become a sort of pseudo hazer and with Fell stinger we can possible use it in super offensive sets when we manage to get a KO with it. Both moves seem very pro concept to work with so it'll be interesting to see how it works with our C&C and such.

Clear Smog gives us some utility and it is pro-concept because a 75 base power Poison-type special attack will get decent chip on a lot of the things we want to stop from setting up. I don't think it will be run very often, tbh, but it is certainly not overpowered and it provides an interesting 4th option on a mon that doesn't suffer much from four moveslot syndrome.

All-Out-Attacker Set
Comes in various forms, usually has Flare Blitz and two or more of these tech moves:
Bone Rush / Bonemerrang
Bulldoze
Flame Wheel
Hidden Power
Bullet Seed
Twineedle
Pursuit

Which I think is a decent enough suite of Tech Moves. Other options generally have been:
Bulk Up
Work Up
Defog
Stealth Rock
Morning Sun

I like Bullet Seed quite a lot. It is nice tech that allows us, with great prediction, to take on things like Arghonaut and Strategem. I also like Twineedle because it similarly rewards prediction against the Latis, and Pursuit is great because it helps us trap Necturna. All are pro-concept.

I support Stealth Rock much more than Defog, as I think Stealth Rock is an inherently more offensive move that pairs well with an attacker that can pressure huge swaths of the metagame. Clicking Stealth Rock, even if it can only be done once, preserves offensive pressure against most teams. Defog instead relieves pressure on your own team and is a bit of a momentum sink that works best on defensive Pokemon that can use it multiple times per match. It doesn't fit as well as SR does within the framework of "offensive Fire-type starter." I am also not a huge fan of Morning Sun for similar reasons.

I realize I didn't calc out Bone Rush, and now I don't wanna :(. Let me say this - Bone Rush feels actually uncompetitive and unfun. I imagine it'll be fine because it still hits all our threatlist even at 2-hits, and getting to play dice and mince everything on the ground may not be unbalanced but feels like a lot of RNG. So I vote overall nay on Bone Rush, and yes on Bonemerang.

While I am undecided on bonemerang, I gotta agree with hawk on no Bone Rush. I don’t think is broken in terms of power, but I think it’s uncompetitive by nature. A move that escalates from being mediocre to z-move levels of nuking by sheer luck of the draw seems too extreme even by pokemon standards, even if it doesn’t affect his threats and counters.

I have to disagree with this. Pokemon is a game of RNG and Bone Rush is in my opinion a healthy and much less broken alternative to Bonemerang. I don't think playing against Bullet Seed Breloom or Technician Ambipom is such a terrible experience, and I don't think the CAP process should be banning decidedly balanced multi-hit moves (which are simply a part of Pokemon) because suddenly they are "uncompetitive."

 

[Sabbio]

I have to disagree with this. Pokemon is a game of RNG and Bone Rush is in my opinion a healthy and much less broken alternative to Bonemerang. I don't think playing against Bullet Seed Breloom or Technician Ambipom is such a terrible experience, and I don't think the CAP process should be banning decidedly balanced multi-hit moves (which are simply a part of Pokemon) because suddenly they are "uncompetitive."

I don't think Bonemerang is broken. In a tier with heavy hitters like Hoopa-U, Kyurem, Mega Mawile, Mega Medi and Mega Crucibelle, Flyinium Z Lando and Kart, we really struggle in my opinion to have a niche. Bone Rush is a bad move as not only misses but it's as unreliable as it gets when counting for rolls.
I'd like to compare CAP25f to Heracross, Nidoking or Mega Shark in UU, since it's more of my environment.
Rarely you have a safe switchin to these mon (shark in particular), but they are far from broken. For once, our bulk is really not great, expecially considering that we take damage from every entry hazard. Our speed is decent but then again there are a lot of stuf that can just revenge kill us, like Kartana, Serp, Koko that may start running HP Water, Gren, Cruci, Latios, Krilowatt, Offensive Fidgit, Pajantom and so on, which are pretty, and, unlike stuff like Kyu-B, we fall over to every coverage move they have. Is Hoopa-U broken because it hits hard? No, since it dies to every U-Turn thrown at it. Is Heracross broken in UU because guts boosted cc or facade 2hkos everything bar hippo? No because it can't really come in easily and it's worn down just as easily between burn and hazard/sandstorm damage. Does a well played Medicham have defensive switch-ins beside a full HP Clef? No, but it's far from broken too.
I see a lot of people being scared up to the point of going anti-concept. What's the point behind Technician then if we have to give CAP25f a move that has only a 66% chance of doing a bit more than eq and a 10% chance of doing nothing?

I don't think playing against Bullet Seed Breloom [...] is such a terrible experience

It's actually one of the many reasons a lot of people brought up when banning loom from UU, that your check would have gotten hit 5 times by bullet seed and then not being a check anymore by the way. Bone Rush is a double edged sword.

 

[Warren685]

I do think Bone Rush is a bit hard on the RNG side so I'm against it, sure you can argue we can rarely get 5 hits or show calcs on how it can maintain certain checks and balance, but when it comes to actual battles, it's a gamble all the time. There's also Bullet Seed to consider, I can imagine where there's a situation of how you can bet 25f to use multi-hit moves to take out of a check when you have no other options to and that would be frustrating and unhealthy for this pokemon.

 

[Deck Knight]

On Bone Rush:
Multi-Hit moves are sort of inherently a gamble, and Technician increases the ante on that gamble.

That said, the comparison to Breloom is valid in some ways and not as valid in others.

Where it's valid:
Spectacular wallbreaking potential the more chances you get to use it. Most walls simply aren't safe to recover on it because they need to minimize the number of times the move is used. They desperate need a 2-hit attack. Odds do not favor them getting it twice.
Relative to their metagames, 25f and Breloom have similar bulk, though distributed differently.

Where it's not valid:
Where Breloom would run Swords Dance and a priority move, those don't appear to be in the running for CAP 25f. Work Up isn't comparable, as 25f has less attack than Breloom to begin with.
Relative to their metagames, 25f is faster than a fair bit of its metagame whereas Breloom usually is not.
25f's STABs are much more powerful and threatening together than Breloom's.
25f's Technician Hidden Power is substantive enough to be threatening, Breloom's never was at 60 SpA.

Pulling off of SHSP's post of mon's Rang beats and weeding out the stuff handled by Flare Blitz or HP Ice:

Shortened SHSP List

S: Tomohawk
A+ to A-: Argho, Clef, Heatran, Chansey, Cyclohm, Fidgit, Gastrodon, Pyroak AFTER ROCKS, Pex, Zapdos (we force it to roost and destroy it; it also does max 20~ to us with HP Ice) (fun to note although neither HP Ice or Bonemerang OHKO zyg, they do similar damage)

B+ to B-: Revenankh (both defensive and BU), Sableye-M, Slowking, TTar(-M), Jirachi, Mew, Mollux, Suicune, Fini

C: , Hippo, Alomomola AFTER ROCKS, Muk-A, Reuni, Quag.

What I'll be looking at here is all of the non-Ground weak Pokemon here, as Earthquake is generally sufficient to beat those. I will also assume Soft Sand as that was SHSP's assumption. If you really want to know about where Bone Rush lies, it's in the hit count, or the number of Bone Rush hits a defensive mon can take before going down.

Long List of Defensive checks / counters with exposition + calcs

Clefable: (6 hits)
Clefable is a poor switchin to 25f given it falls within the 2HKO range of 3-Hit Bone Rush (45.6 - 54.8%), [4-Hit: 60.9 - 73% / 5-Hit: 76.1 - 91.3%] However as a 1v1 check with Knock Off, it can fairly safely remove 25f's Soft Sand and then it becomes much more solid (3-Hit: 38.8 - 45.6% [No Item] ) . 4-Hit (51.7 - 60.9% [No Item] ) and 5-Hit (64.7 - 76.1% [No Item]) Bone Rush can still follow-up KO after a Knock Off. Unaware is better if a boosting set takes hold, Magic Guard for non-boosting sets.

Chansey: (7 hits)
Chansey's extreme passivity, reliance on Eviolite, and the fact 25f has >300 HP means it should run away and stay away. 3-Hit Bone Rush doesn't quite 2HKO, but Chansey doesn't do enough back. 3-Hit: (38.8 - 46.1%), 4-Hit: (51.8 - 61.5%), 5-Hit (64.8 - 76.9%). Earthquake (34.1 - 40.3%) is an interesting contrast here because it always 3HKOs, but Bone Rush can 2HKO after SR with high rolls on 3-Hit, a 4-Hit + 3-Hit combo, or a 5-Hit + 2-Hit combo. Chansey can always Softboiled (or Wish + Protect) Stall Earthquake until it runs out of PP. Bone Rush has a significant possibility of breaking through, especially if Chansey is forced to switch out and take SR damage a second time. (Random sidenote: Counter Chansey is completely ineffective against Bone Rush because it will send back damage from the last hit, not the total damage)

Defensive Tomohawk: (8 hits)
Tomohawk is free to Roost Stall as Bone Rush can only overcome Roost on 4 hits (50.2-60.8%) and 5 hits (62.8-76%). As long as Tomohawk gets to at least 77% HP after Roost it can freely use it or use an attack. Flare Blitz or HP Ice on a Soft Sand set hits 34 - 40%, so if you're at 27% you can freely click Roost and if you're at 41% you can click an attack. Air Slash is a 4HKO so it will still take a while to win, but Hawk basically has it in the bag with smart play because if they mispredict a Bone Rush when you attack, you get unanswered damage and Leftovers healing.

PDef Pyroak: (7 hits after SR, 10 hits w/o SR)
Pyroak tanks 3-hit Bone Rush (32.5-38.6%) and 4-hit Bone Rush (43.3 - 51.4% ) well, however a 5-hit Rush (54.1-64.3%) along with Stealth Rock will allow even a 2-hit Rush (21.6-25.7%) to finish it off. It probably does not want to play the passive game with Synthesis, but Leech Seed and Giga Drain punish Bone Rush's variable damage. Keeping Rocks off the field is very important to preserving Pyroak as a 25f check.

252 / 124 Arghonaut: (7 hits)
Arghonaut is in pretty dangerous territory with 3-hit Bone Rush (45.6-54.3%) on the 252 HP/124 Def spread, but it doesn't get totally savaged like it does by Bonemerang. Argh is better off coming it at full and then using Knock Off than trying to switch into Bone Rush. Notably if Spikes are down, it has a chance to be KO'd by 5-hit Bone Rush (76-90.5%) and 3-hit Rush 2HKO's it on everything except the lowest roll. Knock Off Soft Sand will push 3-Hit Bone Rush into a 3HKO (37.6-45.6%), but Recover Stall is still dangerous at that point because a 4-Hit (50.2 - 60.8% [No Item]) or 5-Hit (62.8 - 76% [No Item]) from there will still KO Argh on average.

PDef Zapdos: (3 hits)
Zapdos doesn't have any business Roosting on a Bone Move, or 25f. The risk of EQ or Bulldoze pulling it down is too great. 3 hit Bone Rush does 93.9-112.7%.

PDef Gastrodon: (7 hits)
Gastrodon fares similar to Arghonaut on 3-hit Bone Rush (44.3-52.8%), but has a smaller KO window if SR is down, and no access to Knock Off. If you come in, click Water STAB or you're done.

Revenankh: (BU 5/6.25 Hits, Defensive 7 hits)
Drain Punch makes Revenankh irritating to deal with for Bone Rush, because it introduces the factor of how many hits you get each use. Drain Punch invalidates a little over a hit's worth of damage on either of its sets, so getting 2-hits once is a win for Rev.

Assuming 3-Hit Bone Rush (58.5-68.7%) vs Leftovers + Drain Punch (44.4-52.7% - recovers 20.8-24.7%) on BU Rev:

Turn 1: Rev switches into Bone Rush
Rev HP: ~37% + Leftovers to 43%
Turn 2: Drain Punch up to ~65%
25f HP: 52%
Bone Rush does another 63%
Rev HP: 2% + Leftovers 8%
Turn 3: Drain Punch up to 30%
25f HP: 4%
Bone Rush KOs.


Not ideal in the 1v1 where Rev switches in using only averages. If Rev gets low Drain Punch rolls, it loses. However:
If SR is down on 25f's side when it comes in (but not Rev's side), Rev wins. If Rev gets high Drain Punch rolls, BU Rev wins. If BU Rev has Life Orb it always 2HKOs and gets more mitigation healing and therefore wins. If Bone Rush rolls a 4-hit (68.7-81.2%) or 5-hit (85.9-101.5%), BU Rev loses. If Bone Rush rolls a 2-hit, BU Rev wins. Defensive Rev actually has a worse matchup because the healing from Drain Punch is more important than the healing from Leftovers because it occurs before a Bone Rush hit instead of after.

PDef Sableye-Mega: (7 hits)
The ideal play here is, like Arghonaut, for Knock Off on the 1v1. 3-hit Bone Rush (41.5 - 50.4% ) can 2HKO but won't after item loss (33.6 - 41.5% [No Item]. Two consecutive 4-hits after Item Loss (44.8 - 55.4% [No Item]) can still 2HKO, as can a 5-Hit (56.1 - 69.3% [No Item]) after a 4-hit, but the odds favor PDef M-Sab after Knock Off. PDef M-Sableye still isn't a good direct switchin after Mega. Flare Blitz (36.9 - 43.8%) can KO from a decent range if Bone Rush hits enough.

SpDefensive M-Sableye: (5 hits)
3-Hit Bone Rush (56.4-66.4%) 2HKOs. 5-hit (94 - 110.5% ) can OHKO easily. It can't Wisp 25f. It's best hope in the 1v1 is to tank the first hit and Knock Off. Don't try and take on 25f with SpD M-Sableye

Defensive Mew: (7 hits)
3-Hit Bone Rush (43.3 - 52.3% ) falls short of a 2HKO, however since Mew doesn't have anything good to attack it with unless it drops Ice Beam or Will-o-Wisp for Scald, don't switch a standard Defensive Mew into 25f.

PDef Tapu Fini (8 hits)
It takes a radical departure from the OU Set, but fully defensive Tapu Fini is a good counter if it runs Water STAB. It can also act similarly to Arghonaut and use Knock Off, though without Water STAB 25f will just keep up its assault.
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Camerupt Bone Rush (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 135-162 (39.3 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Camerupt Bone Rush (4 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 180-216 (52.4 - 62.9%) -- approx. 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Soft Sand Technician Camerupt Bone Rush (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 225-270 (65.5 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Fini is still 2HKO'd by consecutive 4-Hit Bone Rushes, however the odds are greatly in its favor. Suicune is even fatter but doesn't have Knock Off, so it needs to click Water STAB.

252 / 144+ Hippowdon: (8 hits w/SR / 9 Hits w/o)
Hippowdon is the sturdiest answer against 25f around. Even 4-Hit Bone Rush (46.6 - 55.2%) only has the smallest chance of a 2HKO. Hippowdon's Earthquake OHKOs in return. While it's still technically possible for consecutive 5-Hit or 5-Hit + 4-Hit to KO, the odds are massively in Hippowdon's favor. In a 1v1 it can Slack Off any time it runs into a high roll, though Earthquake would usually be the proper choice. If you do come into a 4-hit, Slack Off first. as you'll always outpace 4-hit damage with Slack Off + Leftovers.

40 / 252+ Alomola (8 hits w/SR, 9 hits w/o)
Another bulky water with Knock Off (Scald only 2HKOs), and it even has Regenerator to combat bad rolls and Protect to stall for Leftovers healing. 3-Hit Bone Rush (36.1 - 43% ) is a 3HKO. Like Hippowdon, consecutive 4-Hit (48.2 - 57.3% ) or 4-Hit / 5-Hit (60.2 - 71.7% ) combos are bad news, but unlike Hippowdon it can Knock Off and make Bone Rush entirely non-threatening. [No Item: 3-Hit: 29.9 - 35.5% , 4-Hit: 39.9 - 47.4% , 5-Hit: 49.8 - 59.2%]

252 / 252+ Suicune (8 hits w/SR. 9 hits w/o)
Suicune isn't all that common but it would be a decent defensive answer to 25f, OHKOing with Scald and only fearing consecutive 4-Hits if Rocks are down. Bone Rush with 3-Hit ( 33.4 - 40% ), 4-Hit (44.5 - 53.4%), and 5-Hit (55.6 - 66.8%).

252 / 216+ Mega Slowbro (11 hits)
It's no surprise Mega Slowbro is the bulkiest if it has Mega Evolved, and it has Regenerator on base form Slowbro if it takes too hard a hit coming in. Bone Rush is unlikely to ever overwhelm Mega Slowbro, even 5-Hit can't match Slack Off. [3-Hit: 25.1 - 30.4%, 4-Hit: 33.5 - 40.6% , 5-Hit: 41.8 - 50.7% ]

252 / 252+ CAP 25w:
I don't know if this is bad form or not in these threads, but 25w walls Bone Rush to hell. 3-Hit Bone Rush: (17.8 - 20.9%) , 4-Hit: (23.8 - 27.9%) , 5-Hit: (29.7 - 34.9%) . Even Specially Defensive 25W (252 HP / 0SpD can't be 2HKO'd by 5-Hit Bone Rush unless Stealth Rock is down (40.1 - 47.9%).

Summary: Bone Rush is still effective at defeating a number of walls, however it has significantly more offensive and defensive checks and punishes Recover PP Stall. Only Hippowdown, Alomomola, and Mega Slowbro really have the defense to pull off a 50% recovery move in front of 25f. PDef Pyroak, BU Revenankh, PDef Mega Sableye Defensive Mew, Arghonaut, and PDef Tapu Fini all fare pretty well against it, especially in a 1v1 scenario, but some like Defensive Mew and Tapu Fini need to modify sets to be effective answers.

With regard to consistency, remember that a 4-Hit Bone Rush will "cancel out" a 2-Hit Bone Rush and be equivalent to two 3-Hit Bone Rushes. 5-Hit Bone Rush is extra gravy, but taking that into consideration over 2 turns your average Base Power has an approximately 75% chance of 112.5 BP. That is why the 3-Hit Bone Rush calc is so important, because it represents the scenario of 2-Hit + 4-Hit Bone Rush and (2x) 3-Hit Bone Rush.

Finally, Bone Rush is incredibly dependent on Soft Sand (or Life Orb) to get its 3-Hit calcs to significantly damage walls. Taking a Knock Off will greatly diminish its effectiveness against defensive Pokemon, and offensive Knock Off users do significant damage to it at the same time. 25f might attempt to counter this with Substitute against defensive Pokemon, however it's notable that 0 Atk Arghonaut and PDef M-Sableye Knock Off break those Subs (Clefable, Tapu Fini, and Alomola do not). Tapu Fini and Alomomola should go for Water STAB, Clefable is soundly defeated by Substitute/Bone Rush 25f.

Bone Rush is a necessary addition because it opens up wallbreaking options to CAP25f it couldn't access normally like Arghonaut, Clefable, and Chansey. It does this in part by punishing Recovery PP Stall that would overwhelm Earthquake but is insufficient for 3-Hit Bone Rush and especially for higher rolls which only need to occur once in order to overwhelm recovery.
Bone Rush is a balanced addition because it is not excessively powerful, is dependent on a boosting item to secure its effectiveness, and most walls with Knock Off can disrupt it without losing so much HP that they become totally ineffective afterward. Bonemerang by contrast defeats nearly every wall without necessarily needing a boosting item, and boosting items drive it's power level completely over the top.

More Movesets:
On that note, one aspect of the RNG is accuracy, so I'd like to modify one of Hawk's sets:

Moveset Submission
Set Name: Boosting Wallbreaker
Move 1: Hone Claws / Work Up
Move 2: Bone Rush / Earthquake
Move 3: Flare Blitz
Move 4: Double Hit / Hidden Power: Ice
Nature: Jolly / Hasty
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Item: Soft Sand/Darkinium-Z/Normalium-Z/Groundium-Z/Firium-Z

• 25f will theoretically find itself with frequent free turns given its strong neutral coverage against the meta. Hone Claws patches up the accuracy of Multi-hit moves and boost Attack, while Work Up is a ubiquitous move on starters, and is frequently irrelevant competitively. On 25f, however, the SpA boost is not wasted due to our access to Technician Hidden Power.
• Bone Rush is the best middle ground on a power set like this because you want to use free turns to boost so Bulldoze is less optimal. Earthquake gives you a stronger Z-nuke for a little less overall power for more reliability and a better Z-nuke (140 vs 180).
• Flare Blitz is the fire move of choice for this set, giving necessary breaking power versus Zapdos and Celesteela compared to Flame Wheel.
• Double Hit provides a decent neutral hit of effective 105 BP, making it slightly stronger than Return while keeping the Sash/Sturdy breaking effects intact. It also works well with Hone Claws to patch up its 90% Accuracy.
• A Hasty nature was chosen over a neutral one because our normal bulk is so poor we're going to die to a stiff breeze anyways. With a positive nature we reach 322 speed, enough to outspeed all non-Scarf Landorus.
• Soft Sand is our preferred item, as our Ground STAB is our best move due to lack of recoil. Normalium-Z offers a one-time chance to get to +2/+1 which improves our match-up versus Pyroak and makes breaking somewhat easier in general. If we run Earthquake, Groundium-Z or Firium-Z gives us a one-time nuke.

I edited this set again. It previously had Beat U and Bullet Seed but I was convinced those would be highly unhealthy for our C+C. Double Hit can still 2HKO Latios, but so can Return, a mandatory move. Latios-Mega is not 2HKOd. Double Hit does not reliably 2HKO Latias and does not 2HKO Latias-Mega at all. For an example where this might be relevant, if you use Darkinium-Z Hone Claws to get up to +2, Double Hit KOs Syclant through Focus Sash (Earth Power doesn't KO 25f). Bone Rush can also do this with 3 hits or more, but why whiff on 2 in the worst case scenario? It's also the best move against Mega Charizard Y, as Flare Blitz recoil will allow ZardY to KO you first.