BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Excuse me for supposedly being left in the dust, but some people have expressed that certain kinds of Kingdra has been used frequently these days. Specifically (as indicated a few posts above me), what's with everybody and Specs Kingdra? I know Swift Swim Specs Kingdra CAN work with Rain being the most popular weather right now (due to the new Genie formes and Keldeo and all that)...

However, people must also keep in mind that despite Kingdra's typing (resulting in great abusive STABS), it really doesn't do it any favors defensively; Kingdra is prone to all entry hazards, and its typing gives it neutralities to attacks that Dragon-types normally resist (especially Electric- and Grass- and, sometimes, Bug-type moves). Additionally, while Kingdra has really powerful moves, it can be taken advantage of easily; Ferrothorn and Jellicent laughs if Kingdra doesn't use the correct move, and the opponent can easily abuse switching to take the incoming attacks and make Kingdra take more hazard damage. Even moreso, there's no guarantee that Rain will even be in effect, which might leaves users with an attacker with less-than-desirable traits.
The key is that Kingdra can switch in to many rain boosted moves with ease, and many water types in general without that nasty ice weakness that other dragons have. With Mamoswine everywhere, that is a good thing. It also isn't weak to any priority and resists Bullet Punch and Aqua Jet.

Choice Specs Kingdra is similar to Choice Band Azumarill I find, both are great in Rain, but Azumarill has priority, and hits a little harder while Kingdra has better coverage and higher speed. Prediction is eased in rain, because anything water type on a standard rain team (Politoed, Starmie, Keldeo, etc. ) is 2HKO'd at least by Hydro Pump with Stealth Rock in rain. (Starmie and Keldeo even have a small chance of being OHKO'd) With most rain teams being offensive, Jellicent is really never on the standard rain team. At most you have to worry about Ferrothorn, who still takes a boatload from Hydro Pump.

Against Sandstorm it isn't that bad as well, as it plays like a slower Latios that isn't afraid of Scizor or Tyranitar, and has STAB water to annoy those teams. Only thing I can seeing annoying Kingdra on a Sandstorm steam is (obviously) scarfers and Amoongus, and I believe the standard Amoongus is 2HKO'd by Draco Meteor anyway.
 
Now that rain is taking over the meta-game, what do you think the most popular set Tyranitar is going to run to combat against these weather wars?
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Now that landorus gets stealth rock I have gone back to running choice band Tyranitar 24/7. He doesn't hand out free switch ins unlike specially bulky Tyranitar. Terrakion and keldeo lose half their health simply by switching into a stone edge. (Terrakion risks superpower himself).

I dropped scarftar a long time ago because it kind of sucks. It was good for killing blaziken who tried to use sword's dance against you before the ban. Afterwards, it revenged Lati@s.
 
idk why special ttar is probably better but i am using choice band ttar does a bunch to toed on the switch in and makes me so happy. i have sr on it too, aswell as mamoswine for backup.
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
He hasn't really improved or gotten worse and is still good for what he needs to do. He is still a decent spinner and still does a good job of setting up hazards. Don't try to outright wall anything with him and he will serve you well.

As far as move tutor moves go, he didn't get anything special. You can now use pain split with the overcoat ability. He learns drill run but he already learned earthquake. Lol giga drain.
 
With the release of the pinch berries Forretress can now run a suicide lead set with a Custap Berry to get up at least Stealth Rock and a layer of spikes. It's nothing game changing for Forretress, but it does give it another niche.
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Heatran, Amoongus, and Slowbro are a good defensive core. The same applies to heatran, tangrowth, and slowking. But I'm not sure if you're looking for a core like that. What exactly are you trying to wall with this core?
 
Well I am new, so I am just trying build something based on the discussions I have read. You're suggestion of custap berry with sturdy serves a perfect niche role for Forretress.
 
Ive used Forretress in BW2 a bunch, I use it to set hazards, spin, and revenge dragons stuck into outrage with HP ice. It works pretty well in this role, however, custap berry seems interesting for more offensive teams, but I fear that overall, Deoxys-D might be a better hazard setter because of taunt, its speed, and special defense, outside of setting up toxic spikes of course.
 
Ive used Forretress in BW2 a bunch, I use it to set hazards, spin, and revenge dragons stuck into outrage with HP ice. It works pretty well in this role, however, custap berry seems interesting for more offensive teams, but I fear that overall, Deoxys-D might be a better hazard setter because of taunt, its speed, and special defense, outside of setting up toxic spikes of course.
I would agree with you on that one. It's a lot bulkier than Forretress and more reliable.
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
Custap berry is better for things like aggron and golem who can get off a powerful attack before they die after laying down sr (ignoring priority). Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure custap berry isn't one of the berries you can get in join avenue, so we'll still have to wait for that.
 
^I was under the impression that all the Pinch Berries were released, as it was asked in the simple questions/answers thread if they were released and someone said yes, but if not that's unfortunate. I guess we have to wait then.

Honestly I also would personally prefer Deoxys-D, but Custap Forretress does have a few advantages and it is a pretty interesting set for Forretress to run.
 
Has anyone given Lanturn a try in this metagame? On paper, it seems to be the most effective check against Rain teams, mostly because typing- and ability-wise it counters both Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T. Furthermore, it can take advantage of active rain itself. I'm hoping to use it on a defensive team whenever I get around to building one.

Edit: I just looked at Lanturn's stats again and they seem pretty underwhelming considering its excellent typing. Nonetheless, I can't think of anything else bar Chansey and Blissey that can reliably take on the new genie forms (i.e. those aforementioned above) in the long run.
 
I've actually used Lanturn alongside Vaporeon and they form a surprisingly good defensive core. The only type they don't resist is grass, and that can easily be patched up by adding a dragon/steel type to the team. With all the rain teams running around, this core becomes even better. Vaporeon provides wish support and phazing, while Lanturn brings a cleric and a defensive pivot to the team. The set I've been running is max Hp/SpD with Scald/Volt Switch/Heal Bell/Toxic with a Calm Nature. Lanturn may not have the best stats, and can become set-up fodder, but it can shut down rain teams biggest threats (Starmie,Rotom-W,Genie forms).
 
Has anyone given Lanturn a try in this metagame? On paper, it seems to be the most effective check against Rain teams, mostly because typing- and ability-wise it counters both Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T. Furthermore, it can take advantage of active rain itself. I'm hoping to use it on a defensive team whenever I get around to building one.

Edit: I just looked at Lanturn's stats again and they seem pretty underwhelming considering its excellent typing. Nonetheless, I can't think of anything else bar Chansey and Blissey that can reliably take on the new genie forms (i.e. those aforementioned above) in the long run.
I'm so glad that someone mentioned Lanturn, as I imagine I'm one of very few people to be using it in the new meta. Lanturn is actually a very effective check to Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T, as you surmised. With SpDef investment, it avoids being 3HKOed by LO Hurricane, and 2HKOed by LO Focus Blast. It is also capable of OHKOing both Therians (in the Rain). However, I've found that Lanturn is not a great check to Rain as a whole. While I initially thought it would be a great Keldeo check, the only Keldeo set it checks is Specs. The reason for this is that Keldeo is able to OHKO Lanturn after SR with Secret Sword (I forget whether or not it needs an LO). However, Lanturn can switch in on Specs Hydro Pump with defensive investment, and proceed to Thunder the pony's butt off.

Lanturn seems to be set-up fodder for Breloom and a free switch-in for things like Latios, but I've found that people switch into Lanturn too rashly. Perhaps it's because of Lanturn's RU status, but everyone seems to forget it has access to Ice Beam. Lanturn is able to OHKO 4/0 Breloom after SR with an unboosted Ice Beam, and the switch is so obvious in most battles. Even if you miss the switch-in, most people foolishly try to set up on Lanturn, and so lose their Breloom on that turn. Latios is 2HKOed, even without SR. In short, always run Lanturn with Ice Beam.

I would actually recommend against using Lanturn on a defensive team. Unlike ScarfWynaut, I do not run a defensive team so I'm no expert, but such teams are often hard-pressed for team slots, to be able to handle every role that needs to be filled. With six Pokemon, you have to be able to achieve many roles on a defensive team, and each Pokemon must contribute. But Lanturn doesn't really DO any certain thing on a defensive team. You're forced to wonder why you're using it over Vaporeon who can Wishpass, or Jellicent who can Spinblock, or even sometimes Starmie who can Spin. On defensive teams, it's not enough to check a few dangerous threats, because you have to help fulfill one of the necessary roles on that team, which Lanturn simply cannot do. Yes, Lanturn gets Heal Bell, but Celebi and Chansey/Blissey actually make better clerics on a defensive team, because they have recovery (and SR if that's needed).

I've found that Lanturn actually does best on Bulky Offense or offensively-leaning Balanced teams. It isn't fast enough and can't boost its SpAtk (outside of the unreliable Charge Beam) to fit on an HO team, but the slower offense routes fit it perfectly. Keep in mind, Lanturn does not wall very much of anything. It is an offensive check to threats, and should be treated as such. Lanturn works best when you can pivot it around and wait and get the kills you need it to, which is pretty much exactly what Bulky Offense and Balanced teams do. This is where its mix of skills allow it to use Heal Bell in a way that no other cleric can. I prefer to use it with Agility though, because once Ferrothorn is down, it cleans up Rain teams pretty dang easily. But even a SubCharge Beam set is viable, since it can out-speeds almost all walls and it only takes 52 EVs to make 101 HP Subs. Additionally, it can OHKO most of its offensive checks at +1. Tbh, I think Agility is more suited to the metagame than SubCharge Beam though. The point is, Lanturn can actually run several sets, more than you would think at first.

Oh, and don't worry about Lanturn's stats. It actually has a trolly speed, just beating CB Scizor without any investment. Specially, its HP is massive enough to give it good bulk, although invetment in SpDef is necessary for it to switch into the two Rain Therians. And while its SpAtk seems low, keep in mind it'll be spamming 120 bp STAB attacks most of the time, and that they'll be super-effective against the things its checking. Lanturn is just fine specially, despite how its stats look. Just don't try and take more than one physical hit per game.

I've actually used Lanturn alongside Vaporeon and they form a surprisingly good defensive core. The only type they don't resist is grass, and that can easily be patched up by adding a dragon/steel type to the team. With all the rain teams running around, this core becomes even better. Vaporeon provides wish support and phazing, while Lanturn brings a cleric and a defensive pivot to the team. The set I've been running is max Hp/SpD with Scald/Volt Switch/Heal Bell/Toxic with a Calm Nature. Lanturn may not have the best stats, and can become set-up fodder, but it can shut down rain teams biggest threats (Starmie,Rotom-W,Genie forms).
I would disagree about Lanturn and Vaporeon. First of all, 11/17 types are able to hit them both at least neutrally, so I don't see what you mean by "they only don't resist Grass". So their type-synergy is quite poor, although their role-synergy is much better. Secondly, I've already given my feelings about how Lanturn does on defensive teams, but suffice to say I don't think that uses Lanturn to its full potential.

But perhaps the biggest problem I have here is your set. Can you please explain to me in better detail what you were thinking? Of course Lanturn becomes set-up fodder with that set. First of all, it lacks Ice Beam, which I've already elaborated on, but let's forget that for a second. Lanturn isn't a wall, it just doesn't have the stats or movepool for it. What job is it performing on your team that couldn't be done better by another Pokemon? Hell, even your own Vaporeon could probably serve better as a cleric than Lanturn. Lanturn can't just take repeated hits, like a defensive Pokemon needs to be able to, it can only take enough hits to check the threats it checks. Which your Lanturn doesn't do. It doesn't beat Thundurus-T and Tornadus-T. In fact, it debatably even loses to Starmie. Volt Switch, with your EV spread, doesn't even 2HKO Tornadus-T most of the time. That's right, not even a 2HKO. It can just keep switching around to stay healthy via Regenerator the whole match. Not to mention that Volt Switch makes you send in another Pokemon, so I hope you have another Hurricane resist. Thundurus-T can Nasty Plot on your weak Scald and then 2HKO you with Focus Blast. Or it can Nasty Plot twice, and then OHKO you with Focus Blast. Yes, it can take two Scalds (even in Rain). So I guess I'm wondering how exactly your Lanturn beats them. Oh, and why give it Toxic? Lanturn doesn't have any way of Toxic-stalling (Protect/recovery), and it lacks an effective way of spreading Toxic around (phazing).

I don't mean to sound rude, but I really think you're misusing Lanturn. Your set doesn't beat the things Lanturn is supposed to beat, and it doesn't have the tools to do the job you want it to do. I feel like your team slot would be better occupied by another Pokemon. Don't get me wrong, Lanturn is an awesome Pokemon, but not in that way. It's not a defensive wall, it's an offensive pivot.
 
^No offense taken. I understand your points and they are valid. First off I agree with you completely on Vaporeon and Lanturn having better role synergy than type synergy. I was trying to say that with my above post but I didn't word that as correctly as I should've. You are also correct in saying that Lanturn is best used as an offensive pivot, not as a wall.

Now as for the set I posted, it was a set that was really tailored to fit a specific team I had made a while back. The team I had was extremely weak to bulky waters so I added on Toxic, and it also was susceptible to status so I used Heal Bell. In hindsight these might have not been the best choices, but they helped fill a role my team needed.

I will admit that the EVs are probably not optimal, I know at one point I ran 40 SpA and I would appreciate it if you would suggest what you would run.

Regardless I think we both agree that Lanturn is a great Pokemon and if used correctly can be very anti-metagame. Hopefully I have explained my reasoning with this post, and if not feel free to ask me to explain further.
 
SubCM Jirachi seems to do a good job at handling the genies. ^^ NP Thundurus to a less extent.
What are the best moves on a sub+ calm mind jirachi?

I believe thunder is given, but what about the second move?

I've heard psychic, flash cannon, and even water pulse under rain.
 
I tried Hp ice and it worked great. Boltbeam coverage is always great.
Isn't 70 bp kind of weak tho, without Stab?

Anyways, I posted this in the other thread, and I see much potential. I tired this extensively, and it fits like a puzzle in the current meta. I present to you: Sub Salac Terrakion.


I just came up with a great set for terrakion. It mixes all aspects of its sets into one to create a monster.

Terrakion is a beast in the metagame. The most common variant is the choice scarf variant that is one of the best revenge killers in the game. It allows terrakion to revenge volcarona, salamence, Latios, Gengar, starmie, tornadus, thundurus, Keldeo, you name it. However the big problem with scarf terrakion was that it was walled by gliscor and I guess Landorus-t now. Another problem was that it was weak to priority. Scizors's bullet punch, azumarill's aqua jet. And now, damn techniloom's Mach punch. So people came up with a new set. The Substitute + Swords Dance set. This allowed terrakion to deter priority as a close combat kills all of them, and to smash right through gliscor and slowbro. But this set had trouble with faster threats like starmie, Latios, Latios, Gengar, tornadus (both forms), and scarf mons like jirachi, terrakion, salamence, and Rotom. Well my set fixes all these problems.

Terrakion @ Salac Berry
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Justified
4 HP / 252 ATK / 252 SPD
-Substitute
-Swords Dance
-Close Combat
-Stone Edge

This is the set.

And here's how it works. This works very much like the double dance variant with a mix of substitute terrakion and scarf terrakion. If one sees a wall like gliscor, and priority users like scizor or even faster scarf mons (so in all cases LOL) set up a substitute. In the case of gliscor, swords dance up and OHKO (with some previous help). In the case of priority, let the sub take the hit and OHKO. In te case of the scarf user, take the hit and OHKO. Now the problem with the solely-substitute set was that terrakion was vulnerable to a combination of this. Let's say youve got a priority user against a substitute, and waiting on the wings is a tornadus. In this case, a substitute set would die as the second hit from tornadus, which outspeeds, will kill it after the bullet punch kills the sub. However, all is different with this subsalac terrakion. If you are face with a scizor, (in which case you should have a sub out on the switch), do not stack untill Salac berry is activated. At one point (I'm not sure if it's at 1% or 24% with the sub number), your berry will activate, and you will be left with a sub. In this case, the bullet punch will kill the sub, and you are now a scarf terrakion that can switch moves. BRILLIANT.

There are some problems, you guys might say. "The Salac berry is only one use, it's useless!" well when Salac berry is lost, terrakion just plays as a regular Subsitute + Swords Dance variant. No problem. They mostly carry rock gems, which is one use only.

This terrakion is great in other ways too. Terrakion was built for this set. Lemme tell you why is such a great Pokemon in the new metagame.

1. Typing.
Rock/Fighting might give it some nasty weaknesses, but it's great for terrakion. I know that we all know how great his STABS are. But, I want to talk defensively. It's typing (mostly rock) gives it a sandstorm immunity and a Sp.Def boost. This means two things. 1: terrakion can substitute freely without worrying about weather damage (screw you hail). Another thing is that it's sp.defense boost allows it to switch into many attacks to trigger the Salac berry. IIRC, tornadus's hurricane in sand and starmie's surf NEVER OHKOes (I think). So terrakion can switch into these attacks and serve as a great revenge killer.

2. The Substitute
Another great thing about this set is substitute. It is very hard to find a true sweeper these days. It's even harder with priority everywhere (scizor, breloom, mamoswine) and very importantly, DITTO. However, this set fixes EERYTHINNGG. Substitute allows terrakion to avoid these priority and to troll ditto. Substitute makes this terrakion awesome.

I have used this in OU and it is the best thig ever. Better than Amoonguss, I must say. Which brings me to my next point: it can set up on common defensive pokes thanks to its Subsitute (fuck you spore).

This terrakion is awesome and I hope you guys enjoy this set I made

SUB SALAC TERRAKION FTW
This serves as a great late game sweeper, and can also break walls
 
I'd say Flash Cannon; it gets STAB, hits Ttar, and hits the goddamned specially defensive Kyurem. It's okay coverage in general.
 

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