BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[Colonel M]

Latios wouldn't be hit with +2 Hidden Power Ice unless you were retarded and let Thundurus-T set up on someone else and had a Modest Latios. Latios has access to a recovery move, too. It's not a counter like how Skarmory stops Escavalier, but it's better than when people stated Raikou was a good Manaphy counter...

Lati twins are the closest checks / counters to that screwball.

 

[Itchni]

I don't know why moxie mence with outrage hasn't been mentioned more in this thread.

He is just a completely broken mon right now. As long as you have Salamence alive on your team you have a chance at winning. he can set up on a lot of things and can muscle through many steel types that try to counter him. +1 outrage just does crazy amounts of damage to the entire metagame with many things not able to survive it. After 1 kill its almost guaranteed that you win.

I run him on my anti SR team right now, because 25% more hp makes him able to set up on many many more attacks and sweep.

 

[Danger Mouse]

I don't know why moxie mence with outrage hasn't been mentioned more in this thread.

He is just a completely broken mon right now. As long as you have Salamence alive on your team you have a chance at winning. he can set up on a lot of things and can muscle through many steel types that try to counter him. +1 outrage just does crazy amounts of damage to the entire metagame with many things not able to survive it. After 1 kill its almost guaranteed that you win.

I run him on my anti SR team right now, because 25% more hp makes him able to set up on many many more attacks and sweep.

...except mamoswine destroys salamence no matter how many boosts it has. yet another reason why mamoswine is just so fantastic in this current metagame.

 

[Lee]

If your calculation is correct alexwolf, then does Latios not risk an OHKO if he switches into HP Ice while SR and SS are in play? Bit dodgy for my liking (guess that's what happens when you're happy for your 'counter' to lose 90%~ of it's health...)

 

[ElectivireRocks]

My thoughts on the current metagame...

Kyurem: dear god, is this thing annoying. Earth Power and Roost were the best moves Kyurem could possibly ask for, which fix most of its old problems. Its above average bulk and Pressure ability are now put to good use, being able to stall moves like Close Combat and Stone Edge very easily. Its Ice typing is suddenly a blessing in this metagame full of pokemon weak to ice and Mamoswine ready to Ice Shard them to oblivion.

What makes it even scarier though is its sheer versatility despite its relatively small movepool - you could expect a SubRoost set, only to be vaporized by a Specs STAB Draco Meteor coming from 130 Sp.Atk.
Planning to wall it with your pink blob of choice? Say hi to the dreaded Sub+Hone Claws set, which sets up on those.
Last but not least, thinking to send Scizor in and bullet punch the icy dragon? Hidden Power Fire is still there to roast it.

Kyurem does have one glaring weakness though: it's very vulnerable to status. Even burn will cripple it badly, since it's also weak to SR and Roost can only partially fix that problem.


Tornadus-T: probably the best stat distribution in the entire OU tier. Nothing goes to waste. It has the bulk to survive most neutral attacks, it has a very trollish speed stat and it has good enough mixed offenses to give it a degree of unpredictability.
Even though Tornadus-T loves rain, it can function in sun well thanks to pseudo-STAB Heat Wave.
Regenerator is also a fantastic ability to have for obvious reasons. The best of the Therian formes in my opinion.


Keldeo: I'm somewhat unimpressed by this pony to be honest. It's a great late-game sweeper, but easily revenge-killed by Tornadus-T, Psyshock Lati@s and Starmie. Amoongus is a relatively good check as well.
Sunny Day Venusaur also screws him over.


Thundurus-T: the Agility set is checked by Ice Shard Mamoswine, while the Nasty Plot set is checked by Lati@s. That's about it. If you don't pack these pokemon, Thundurus-T is a real bitch to face, but its frailty is a major weakness. Sun also makes it a lot less threatening, unlike Tornadus-T who can still hit hard with Heat Wave.


Breloom: honestly, way overhyped. With Tornadus, Salamence and Mamoswine everywhere Breloom is not that dangerous. The loss of Poison Heal also makes it very susceptible to Will-o-Wisp and Scald, making it even harder to switch in.

 

[SlimMan]

That's a CHECK a counter can switch into the opposing pokemon without worry and threaten it out or damage it heavily. Latios does not fit that definition. As it risks serious damage in the process.

The "without worry" part isn't really important for my definition of a counter. For me, as long as you can switch into it and proceed to kill it/wall it/force it out without being KO'ed in the process (ie dying to Sandstorm, LO recoil, Explosion backfire), then you successfully did your job as a counter.
And Latios can do that. Because a +0 HP Ice doesn't KO Latios, and Latios gets a free switch-in if Thundurus-T uses NP instead.

edit: I didn't look at alexwolf's calc. If Lee is right, then 90% is too much for my tastes. Eh, it's in the gray area, but I'm gonna have to say no to Latios being a counter with that in mind.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Lol what happened here, I was talking about countering the regular Thundurus with Blissey and Chansey, which if you used the right spread, was perfectly possible. Thundurus-T with nasty plot is a bitch, I have come to accept it as the best stall breaker that no one uses.

 

[alexwolf]

If your calculation is correct alexwolf, then does Latios not risk an OHKO if he switches into HP Ice while SR and SS are in play? Bit dodgy for my liking (guess that's what happens when you're happy for your 'counter' to lose 90%~ of it's health...)

Yeah he does risk this, and this is why it is a shaky counter to Agility Thundurus-T.

That's a CHECK a counter can switch into the opposing pokemon without worry and threaten it out or damage it heavily. Latios does not fit that definition. As it risks serious damage in the process.

Edit:+2 or not LO HP ice still does a decent chunk to it. Bulky latias is probably a counter, but I can only see latios being a check at best. Don't forget that Thunder-t has 145 special attack. v

A counter to a poke A is a poke B that is able to come into anything that the poke A is able to do, and either force it out, or cripple back/ohko. And this is what Latios does.

Many counters risk heavy damage in the process but that doesn't stop them from being counters. This is the reason that even though Hippo takes huge damage from a +2 SD Lucario, it is still considered as a counter.

edit: I didn't look at alexwolf's calc. If Lee is right, then 90% is too much for my tastes. Eh, it's in the gray area, but I'm gonna have to say no to Latios being a counter with that in mind.

Lee was talking about the Agility set, which runs a Modest nature. HP Ice from LO Timid Thundurus-T does 66.23%-78.15% to 4 HP Latios, so it is more than able to counter NP Thundurus-T even in Sand.

 

[PK Gaming]

That's a check alex. A counter is able to come in without risk(from common sets) and force something out. Latios takes heavy damage from HP ice switching in... if it's been weakened at all, it can't counter Thundurus-T period. (I'm not sure why you'd even mention Latios over Latias, who actually is never OHKOed from HP ice after SR)

Lol what happened here, I was talking about countering the regular Thundurus with Blissey and Chansey, which if you used the right spread, was perfectly possible. Thundurus-T with nasty plot is a bitch, I have come to accept it as the best stall breaker that no one uses.

NP Thundurus-T is fairly common.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Ive played nearly 50 battles on showdown and have yet to see it once.

I don't call that common.

 

[alexwolf]

That's a check alex. A counter is able to come in without risk and force something out.

No PK a check is a poke that is able to come into some of the poke's moves and force it out/revenge kill it, not ALL of it's moves.

 

[SlimMan]

No PK a check is a poke that is able to come into some of the poke's moves and force it out/revenge kill it, not ALL of it's moves.

Sometimes, checks can't come in on ANY of the poke's moves.
For example, Starmie can't come in on any of CB Nite's moves (I haven't calc'ed Fire Punch, but bear with me), and yet it still handily checks CB Nite.

Lee was talking about the Agility set, which runs a Modest nature. HP Ice from LO Timid Thundurus-T does 66.23%-78.15% to 4 HP Latios, so it is more than able to counter NP Thundurus-T even in Sand.

With SR, it can still do up to 90% though.

 

[alexwolf]

Sometimes, checks can't come in on ANY of the poke's moves.
For example, Starmie can't come in on any of CB Nite's moves (I haven't calc'ed Fire Punch, but bear with me), and yet it still handily checks CB Nite.


With SR, it can still do up to 90% though.

I didn't say that a check should be able to switch into any move of a poke SlimMan, this is what counters do. A check is able to come into most of the poke's moves and kill/force out.

And yeah Thundurus-T still has the potential to do up to 90% damage.

 

[PK Gaming]

No PK a check is a poke that is able to come into some of the poke's moves and force it out/revenge kill it, not ALL of it's moves.

Edited my above post since I was afk.

Anyway, you said it yourself Latios cannot reliably switch into HP Ice. I don't even know why we're arguing pointless semantics here. In summary, Latios is a fairly good Thundurus check but a shitty counter. HP Ice deals 66.4% - 78.4% to Latios, meaning that if it's taken prior damage AT ALL, then it cannot counter Thundurus-T.

Ive played nearly 50 battles on showdown and have yet to see it once.

I don't call that common.

I've played nearly 60 matches (WHOA) and i've seen a ton. It's irrelevant anyway since PEMN. Besides, when people realize that NP Thundurus-T is a top tier sweeper they'll start using it.

 

[SlimMan]

I didn't say that a check should be able to switch into any move of a poke SlimMan, this is what counters do. A check is able to come into most of the poke's moves and kill/force out.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm adding to what you said.
Checks don't have to be able to switch in at all. If they have to come in after a kill, they can still check the pokemon. So while some checks can switch into a couple, but not all, of the pokemon's moves, some checks cannot switch in period, but they can revenge kill.

 

[alexwolf]

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm adding to what you said.
Checks don't have to be able to switch in at all. If they have to come in after a kill, they can still check the pokemon. So while some checks can switch into a couple, but not all, of the pokemon's moves, some checks cannot switch in period, but they can revenge kill.

Ah ok didn't understood it, since i am always so keen on getting to arguments :D

 

[Itchni]

...except mamoswine destroys salamence no matter how many boosts it has. yet another reason why mamoswine is just so fantastic in this current metagame.

One pokemon being able to counter another pokemon doesn't mean that its not a good pokemon

Saying that is like saying that mamoswine is a bad pokemon due to the high usage of scizor.

Even with the presence of mamoswine, salamence can come into much of the metagame and sweep entire teams.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Yeah but if Latios is at full health he can counter NP Thundurus-T. And this means that he is a shaky counter (shaky because he must be in high health). Think about the example i gave before. Hippo is considered as a counter to Lucario even though he has to be at almost full health do take a hit from +2 Lucario.

Can I ask, how likely is it that a Pokemon will remain at full health for the entire match?

Exactly. In virtually all cases, it just isn't happening. So, Latios is a check at best. There is no way it can be considered a counter. Also, about your Lucario argument... Nothing counters SD Lucario. End of discussion. Hippowdon is one of the best checks, but due to how much it takes from a +2 Close Combat, you actually don't need to weaken it very much to KO it, so I wouldn't call it a counter. In fact, if you're relying solely on Hippowdon just to beat Lucario, you're doing something wrong.

 

[PK Gaming]

Yeah but if Latios is at full health he can counter NP Thundurus-T. And this means that he is a shaky counter (shaky because he must be in high health). Think about the example i gave before. Hippo is considered as a counter to Lucario even though he has to be at almost full health do take a hit from +2 Lucario.

They're incomparable though, Lucario needs to set up a Swords Dance (which it can't always get the chance to use) on the switch in, and it needs a layer of spikes in order to get a CHANCE to OHKO Hippowdon. (and technically hippo is a check too...) Latios needs to switch into an electric / fighting or set up move in order to force it out. If it switches into a Thunderbolt/Volt Switch, it cannot reliably switch into Thundurus-T ever again because it will be taken out by HP ice. It has recover though, so it's better than you're average offensive check, but it's still a check at best.

If it's at 90%, (that's 10% damage over the course of one battle, comparable to one turn of LO!) it cannot even counter the agility set since it will OHKO with LO HP ice on the next turn.

That is why I don't think it's fitting to call it a Thundurus counter at all. (again, your case would be stronger if you used Latias)

 

[alexwolf]

They're incomparable though, Lucario needs to set up a Swords Dance (which it can't always get the chance to use) on the switch in, and it needs a layer of spikes in order to get a CHANCE to OHKO Hippowdon. (and technically hippo is a check too...) Latios needs to switch into an electric / fighting or set up move in order to force it out. If it switches into a Thunderbolt/Volt Switch, it cannot reliably switch into Thundurus-T ever again because it will be taken out by HP ice. It has recover though, so it's better than you're average offensive check, but it's still a check at best.

If it's at 90%, (that's 10% damage over the course of one battle, comparable to one turn of LO!) it cannot even counter the agility set since it will OHKO with LO HP ice on the next turn.

That is why I don't think it's fitting to call it a Thundurus counter at all. (again, your case would be stronger if you used Latias)

Not at all. Latios can even take one HP Ice and then ohko back, so it is a counter. Whether it is a reliable one or not is another discussion. Volt Switch is irrelevant in our discussion, since i was talking about the NP set. And if Latios switches into a Tbolt then it can either ohko back, or recover back to full health, being able to counter Thundurus-T for one more time.

I will say it again, a counter is a poke that is able to come into any of the other poke's move and ohko/force out. Latios can do this, so it is a counter. Whether or not it is a reliable one is up to your liking, and up to the opponent's team (if the opposing team has Ttar with Thundurus-T, then Latios will be in a tough position, but would still be a counter to the NP set).

Also Latias is an ok counter too, but the only Latias that can counter the NP Thundurus-T is the offensive tank set, because all the others cannot ohko back.

 

[Pocket]

OK so Latios is a shitty counter / good check to Thundurus-T. Let's talk about other things.

 

[PK Gaming]

Our definitions of what a counter is clearly differs, so I don't see a point in continuing this argument. Though I hope you one day realize how inane your criteria for what a counter is, since by your loose definitions anything that can (at a 100% only) switch into something, take a hit (and barely survive mind you) and threaten to OHKO back is a counter.

Thundurus-T is still an incredibly annoying pokemon to deal with, more news at 11.

 

[alphatron]

I won't call the current state of things much of a metagame until I'm certain that the new car smell of things has worn off. I will say one thing though.

If you want to actually win games, use mamoswine. If you don't care about winning games, then use other pokemon. I seriously question how we could ever have been at a point where this guy was a low tier OU Pokemon. On every team I make, I have to ask myself, "Alphatron? Why are you not using mamoswine?".

On my sun team, he crushes heatran and dragons. On rain teams, he crushes puny sand Pokemon. On my sand team, he laughs at things that seriously believe they can wall him. Skarmory is a shaky ass wall. 3hko'd by LO icicle crash while risking a constant 30% flinch chance? In hail? Even less is gonna wall mamoswine (save for cresselia...haha!) with the residual damage up.

He only does everything. Need a check to breloom that doesn't lose needless hp thanks to Mach punch and isn't pursuit bait? Sure. Not liking dragons much? He's your man. Want to mangle every weather starter and defensive ninetales? Okay. Want to break stall cores? He has the most impressive resume in OU right now. Think of a problem your team has. Mamoswine is probably the answer.

 

[Ricky Horror]

I have seen HUGE increase of Jirachi and Mamoswine. lol SubCM Rachi is a huge pain, even Pokemon carrying EQ fail to KO unless stab. Also Rachi outspeeds most EQ users. NP Thundurus trolls so much imo +4 Focus Blast nails Blissey clean off her ass ^^

 

[Saitsuofleaves]

I've been using Haxrachi, damn thing has been clutch for me.

Also Reuniclus.