Battle Spot Doubles Viability Rankings

[Kortex]

Battle Spot Doubles Viability Rankings​

Welcome to the official Battle Spot Doubles Viability Rankings topic. In this thread, we as a community will rank Pokemon in the Battle Spot Doubles metagame into tiers. You are encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various usable Pokemon what tier they should fall under. The general idea of the topic is to rank each Pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. There will not be any segregation between offense and defense threats. If you have a good case to add something to a tier, please provide good reasoning and evidence. The same goes for moving a Pokemon to a different tier.

Below are the definitions of each rank. These should be read by anyone who wants to participate in the discussion of Pokemon rankings in Battle Spot Doubles.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the Battle Spot Doubles metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the Battle Spot Doubles metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the Battle Spot Doubles metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the Battle Spot Doubles metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the Battle Spot Doubles metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

Ranks A-D are additionally subdivided into rankings like A+, A, and A-. This is to give a better approximation of the relative order of each Pokemon within their grades.

~~~~~


S Rank:

Kangaskhan-Mega

Landorus-T

Cresselia


A Rank:

A+ Rank:

Charizard-Mega Y

Mawile-Mega

Sylveon

Heatran

Thundurus

Aegislash

Talonflame

Rotom-W

Amoonguss

A Rank:

Bisharp

Azumarill

Gardevoir-Mega

Gengar

Tyranitar

Togekiss

Politoed

Hydreigon

Zapdos

Terrakion

Gyarados-Mega

A- Rank:

Tyranitar-Mega

Gengar-Mega

Thundurus-T

Excadrill

Gyarados

Mamoswine

Breloom

Garchomp


B Rank:

B+ Rank:

Latios

Chandelure

Milotic

Ferrothorn

Scrafty

Suicune

Rotom


B Rank:

Ludicolo

Scizor

Scizor-Mega

Gardevoir

Infernape

Salamence

Landorus

B- Rank:

Jellicent

Aromatisse

Latias

Kingdra

Entei

Greninja

Gothitelle

Smeargle


C Rank:

C+ Rank:

Lucario-Mega

Blaziken

Blaziken-Mega

Blastoise-Mega

Venusaur

Venusaur-Mega

Charizard-Mega X

Manectric-Mega

Abomasnow

Abomasnow-Mega

Hitmontop

Volcarona

Weavile

C Rank:

Lucario

Arcanine

Conkeldurr

Raikou

Whimsicott

Liepard

Dragonite

Aerodactyl

Aerodactyl-Mega

Gourgeist-S

Rhyperior

C- Rank:

Machamp

Metagross

Dusclops

Slowbro

Trevenant

Reuniclus

Hariyama

Virizion

Goodra


Kortex Rank:

Tangrowth

Magmar

Rules

• Post intelligently. Posts like "I think Pokemon X should be in this tier" without giving any reasoning will not be tolerated
• Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but avoid basing your entire argument around them.
  
• No flaming
• No one-liners or useless comments

 

[Plasmanta]

Nominating Charizard-X for C+ rank. While it has no quality making it better than it's Y form counterpart, it does have niche's in the form of a unique typing and access to spread moves, as well as the strongest Flare Blitz in the tier. Again, not an amazing mon, but I do think it needs a mention

 

[NOVED]

Lookin like the start of a good thread :]

You should probably make a note of Gyarados Mega btw. I don't know if you wanted to place it differently from it's base form but I think they're both about A rank anyway.

 

[haban012]

have no idea how to do doubles, but you are #1 on ladder, there is no way it's wrong :D
should I start the singles ranking? xD (I know i just say and i don;t)
someone on twitter said Seを6月パーク is sejun lol

 

[Plasmanta]

the hunt for sejun begins o3o

also, singles has a viability ranking, it's just kinda dying

 

[NOVED]

have no idea how to do doubles, but you are #1 on ladder, there is no way it's wrong :D
should I start the singles ranking? xD (I know i just say and i don;t)
someone on twitter said Seを6月パーク is sejun lol

There is a singles ranking thread already and Seを6月パーク is Kortex lmao

 

[Hulavuta]

Hey guys, just want to say that the forum is not the same as a chatroom. We want to keep all discussion in this thread about actual viability rankings, so keep the off-topic posts about other threads to VMs. Next post needs to be about a Pokemon.

I guess I'll follow my own advice, so I'd like to nominate Ferrothorn for at least A or A- Rank. Most people know that Ferrothorn is my absolute favorite Pokemon to use in Doubles. It can be really annoying in the late game when Fighting and Fire-types are gone (and it can even take weaker Fighting and Fire attacks). Leech Seed keeps it really healthy and bugs other Pokemon, letting it stay on the field for quite a while. It always pulls its weight for me when I put it on a team.

 

[EnGarde]

I think mega charizard y is a little too highly ranked. I don't think it's S rank, more like A+ or A. Mega 'zard y carries a 4x rock weakness (especially rewarding to the ever popular rock slide), it's frail to physical attacks in particular, and has a common speed tier of 100 (isn't guaranteed to outspeed common threats like mega kanga and garchomp, as well as scarf landorus-t and scarf ttar).

For these reasons, it needs enough team support that I think, while still incredibly useful and able to function on a majority of teams, it's A+/A rank rather than S rank.

 

[Shyfire]

alright so there can't be a thread on battle spot that i don't run my mouth on so lets get into this. Mega zard y for A+/A rank. Don't get me wrong this is a very good pokemon and can prey on team that don't have a good check. Solar beam for those pesky water types. Air slash for a decend second STAB, and that god dang drought boosted heat wave. But there are some things that make zard y an unwanted pokemon in this doubles meta. Scarfed Garchomp and lando and make quick work of Charizard with rock slide. IMO its main flaw is the fact that once t-tar switchs in and get sandstorm going.......R.I.P mega Charizard-Y. solar beam is now 2 turns, heat wave does shit with drough gone and sandstorms Special Def. boost. So all in all Charizard-Y is not a bad pokemon but most teams have a check.

js Magmar should have its own rank called god. i mean look at that thing its even better then Mega kang:)

 

[Dillon~]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/manectric.3510313/

---> B/ B+. I know this is a high difference, but I am recommending Mega Manectric for B or B+ rank. It is very fast (Base 135) and I don't really see how it isn't higher in these rankings. It has a high special attack stat of 135. It can outspeed many things, and if you feel that it isn't fast enough without mega, you can run protect, which still is on many things in the doubles metagame.

Also, remember, this is not a chatroom, and that you need to backup your suggestions. These aren't yes/ no answers.​

 

[NOVED]

Nominating greninja for B-.

Never liked this mon in doubles. Mat Block is a meh gimmick that gets fucked up by fake out and it just limits greninjas move options as it'll often not run protect and if it's running protect + mat block then it doesn't have the great coverage that it wants. Greninja is fast and has fantastic coverage but I just think it's too frail. It often doesn't last more than two turns. So many common pokemon in the meta slap it around like Kan, Scarf lando, Sylveon, Gard, and Talonflame just to name a handful.

I can see it (maybe) being B+ in ORAS with the great moves it got, but B+ right now doesn't seem fitting to me at all.

 

[Kortex]

Mega Charizard Y: S ---> A+

Due to the prevalence of checks and counters like Scarf Landorus-T, Thundurus, and Tyranitar, Mega Charizard Y has been moved from S Rank to A+ Rank.

Greninja: B+ ---> B-

Although Greninja receives wide coverage, NOVED makes a valid point- Greninja is frail and is easily KOed by common Pokemon like Mega Kangaskhan, Scarf Landorus-T, and Talonflame.

Before making further adjustments, I'd like to call for further discussion on Ferrothorn and Mega Manectric. Thank you to everyone who has contributed so far :]

 

[NOVED]

I think Mega Manectric should go B-. It has really good coverage and being able to use Intimidate + a fast volt switch is really good. Although, scarf lando fills a similar role with u-turn and is generally better. Manectric's 135 SpA without a boosting ability is fairly weak for a mega. It's also really frail and get's 2HKO'd by a lot of things even after Intimidate. When you add in the fact that you're passing up an opportunity to use all the other viable megas, I wouldn't place Manectric much higher but I think it's pros could put it up to at least B-.

Ferrothorn is a tricky decision. It's a great check to Mega Kan, it can wall a good amount of pokemon, it has a great typing which often lets teams switch around easier, and it can sometimes be a nice win condition. I think most teams are generally prepared to face ferrothorn though. Pokemon that just mainly wall aren't exactly what I think are the best in doubles. If you're packing taunt, it's easy taunt bait. Granted, Ferrothorn's offensive presence is decent but grass and steel aren't the best STABs to work with and ferro often relies on leech seed. If you factor in intimidates, ferro can end up being pretty weak. It's also incredibly slow, making it easier to break down with double targets. I think it's fine at B+.

 

[Hulavuta]

You can use the Taunt bait and double targeting bait to your partner's advantage while also going for Protect. The thing about Ferrothorn is that it's a lategame Pokemon, a lot of teams may have an answer but you can use that to your advantage by forcing them to play more conservatively with it. Ideally you'd never really have it out when there is a Taunt user still around. You bring it out when it's around 2 Pokemon each, which is where it shines and has the most staying power. It's a very secure way to finish out a match.

In addition to Mega Kangaskhan as you said, it also is good against Garchomp, Sylveon, and a myriad of water types like Rotom-W, Azumarill, or Gyarados after it Mega Evolves. Gyro Ball is also good, as despite not having much super effective coverage, it is usually powerful just because everything is so fast and Ferrothorn is so slow.

If you find your opponent's team has a lot of answers to it you don't have to bring it. It's true that this could be said of all Pokemon in this format, but Ferrothorn is rarely central to the strategy (unlike a weather Pokemon, for example), it's mainly there to fix a few holes and give you a solid answer to a few common Pokemon.

 

[EnGarde]

I agree with Hulavuta. Ferro is a bit of a "thinky" pokemon, and requires intelligent play to be used optimally. Once its specific counters have been removed, it does indeed "wall significant portions of the metagame." It also forces cautious opponents to bring their fire type/fire coverage 'mon, which could lead to an advantageous matchup for you regardless of whether you bring ferro to the match or not.

Pokemon that just mainly wall aren't exactly what I think are the best in doubles.

I would disagree with this statement. I would love to have a great wall pokemon on my team, it's just that, unfortunately, the number of pokemon that can function in this role is very small. Pretty much cress, porygon2, and ferrothorn are the only ones that come instantly to mind for me. Things that can only wall 1 type of damage (physical or special) just aren't as effective here, since your opponent can have both a physical and special attacker on the field at the same time. Other pokemon can approximate this role under favorable conditions, but not on the same level as those 3. I'd love to hear other suggestions, though. :)

 

[NOVED]

I would disagree with this statement. I would love to have a great wall pokemon on my team, it's just that, unfortunately, the number of pokemon that can function in this role is very small. Pretty much cress, porygon2, and ferrothorn are the only ones that come instantly to mind for me. Things that can only wall 1 type of damage (physical or special) just aren't as effective here, since your opponent can have both a physical and special attacker on the field at the same time. Other pokemon can approximate this role under favorable conditions, but not on the same level as those 3. I'd love to hear other suggestions, though. :)

The thing is, doubles is an incredibly offensive meta, and simply being a "great wall" won't do you very well 90% of the time. Bulky offensive mons can shine because of their power and because of trick room. This is why Ferrothorn is a bit better than most walls because it does have a decent offensive presence. And the only reason "walls" like Cress and Amoonguss are so good is because they have great support options for doubles that make them perform incredibly well, like Spore/Rage Powder for Amoonguss and Cress has more support options than I'm going to bother to list. These two are also two reasons I think Ferro should stay B+. Ferro faces competition as a bulky grass from the much better Amoonguss and competition as a bulky win condition from Cresselia.

 

[EnGarde]

The thing is, doubles is an incredibly offensive meta, and simply being a "great wall" won't do you very well 90% of the time. Bulky offensive mons can shine because of their power and because of trick room. This is why Ferrothorn is a bit better than most walls because it does have a decent offensive presence. And the only reason "walls" like Cress and Amoonguss are so good is because they have great support options for doubles that make them perform incredibly well, like Spore/Rage Powder for Amoonguss and Cress has more support options than I'm going to bother to list. These two are also two reasons I think Ferro should stay B+. Ferro faces competition as a bulky grass from the much better Amoonguss and competition as a bulky win condition from Cresselia.

Haha, I need to be careful when I post at 2am, sometimes I forget to write the topic sentence of my post. ^_^ My point was that, just because most pokemon *can't* run wall or end-game sustain type sets, doesn't mean that pokemon that *can* run these sets should be written off (ferrothorn being the example in question). Totally dropped the ball by not clarifying that right off the bat on my earlier post.

So, to my point: because ferrothorn is able to shine in this role (wall/self sustainer), where very few other pokemon are able to (the other examples being cress with moonlight, porygon2 with recover, ferrothorn with leech seed, and arguably aegislash with substitute + king's shield + leftovers), I believe that ferrothorn should be moved up from B+ to A-.

It is still placed below Cresselia, which is able to perform this role better (as well as having greater flexibility: it can perform well in other roles as well, which ferrothorn cannot). I would argue that porygon2 (which hasn't been placed yet), could also stand to be placed at a comparable level or a bit higher (A or A-) since it has a better offensive stat, is a special attacker (is less susceptible to burn/intimidate), and can run multiple support options in addition to its staying power, though it needs to hold eviolite to function properly (can't hold leftovers or rocky helmet).

Also, amoonguss is a really useful bulky support, but it is by no means a great wall. Base 114/70/80 defenses are good, but not great, and if you find yourself playing 3v1 or 2v1 with only amoonguss remaining, you've likely already lost your win condition and the match. As NOVED pointed out, it does give ferrothorn heavy competition for bulky grass type on a team, which is why it rightfully deserves higher placement on the tier list, a relationship that is still maintained if ferrothorn is moved from B+ to A-.

Just my thoughts, at least. :3

 

[Hulavuta]

Yeah I was gonna say literally the same thing but never got around to it. Classes all day :Y

 

[NOVED]

Haha, I need to be careful when I post at 2am, sometimes I forget to write the topic sentence of my post. ^_^ My point was that, just because most pokemon *can't* run wall or end-game sustain type sets, doesn't mean that pokemon that *can* run these sets should be written off (ferrothorn being the example in question). Totally dropped the ball by not clarifying that right off the bat on my earlier post.

So, to my point: because ferrothorn is able to shine in this role (wall/self sustainer), where very few other pokemon are able to (the other examples being cress with moonlight, porygon2 with recover, ferrothorn with leech seed, and arguably aegislash with substitute + king's shield + leftovers), I believe that ferrothorn should be moved up from B+ to A-.

It is still placed below Cresselia, which is able to perform this role better (as well as having greater flexibility: it can perform well in other roles as well, which ferrothorn cannot). I would argue that porygon2 (which hasn't been placed yet), could also stand to be placed at a comparable level or a bit higher (A or A-) since it has a better offensive stat, is a special attacker (is less susceptible to burn/intimidate), and can run multiple support options in addition to its staying power, though it needs to hold eviolite to function properly (can't hold leftovers or rocky helmet).

Also, amoonguss is a really useful bulky support, but it is by no means a great wall. Base 114/70/80 defenses are good, but not great, and if you find yourself playing 3v1 or 2v1 with only amoonguss remaining, you've likely already lost your win condition and the match. As NOVED pointed out, it does give ferrothorn heavy competition for bulky grass type on a team, which is why it rightfully deserves higher placement on the tier list, a relationship that is still maintained if ferrothorn is moved from B+ to A-.

Just my thoughts, at least. :3

I don't think it should be written off either, B+ is still very respectable. But the thing is, i don't think "self-sustaining" is a very viable strategy in doubles in general. Ferrothorn can make it work because it has it's own good qualities, hence why it's B+. But the strategy of self sustaining has so much going against it in doubles that I think playing more offensively is much better. "Self sustaining" is a slow process that more often than not will drag out turns a bit. More turns for crits, more turns for spdef drops and secondary effects, more turns for rock slide flinches, more turns for getting worn down yourself, etc. There's many more viable ways to play that are less risky and more reliable like standard offense and even strong TR teams if you want to go the bulky route. Also, just as ferro walls a lot of common mons, it loses to a lot of common mons as well like any fire type(3 in A+), a lot of steels, and most mons with SE coverage for it.

I don't think ferrothorn can really be put at A with these kind of flaws. B+ is still really good though and there's no doubt ferro should be there at the very least.

& I wasn't trying to say amoonguss is a mon for 2v1 situations, not at all, im just saying it gives ferro a lot of competition as a grass type for teams. Spore & rage powder support is often more useful than what ferro can provide. And although it's bulk isnt amazing, it has regenerator to help it out so it even has some form of recovery without wasting a move/item slot, which is cool.

And i have no idea where you're coming from with porygon2 anywhere near A. It really is just a cress 2.0 with a lot less options. It's not even an amazing trick room setter as there are so many more viable setters to choose from. We have setters that can't be taunted, ghost setters that can't be fake out'd(for the most part), setters that can't be spored, and we have cress. And if you're looking for an offensive TR setter we have mons like chandy and reun. I can't think of any unique qualities that would place this mon near A. What "multiple support options" does this have besides speed control?

 

[qsns]

I'd like to nominate Aromatisse for B- (maybe B?).

Although it definitely has less bulk than Cress, it has the very, very handy ability to not get Taunted. Considering this one of the main ways people shut down Trick Room, it has the niche getting it set up more reliably. Safety Goggles is a ridiculous item on it, allowing it to set up Trick Room almost 100% of the time; it can be EV'd to live Adamant Life Orb Iron Head from Bisharp and Modest Aegislash Flash Cannon 15/16 times on the same set. Fairy typing is better than Psychic for sure, as it gives a nifty resistance to Dark and an immunity to Dragon (hi, Hydreigon!). Finally, its support movepool is almost comparable to Cress's: Helping Hand, Heal Pulse, and Charm are standouts.

 

[Kortex]

Aromatisse: C ---> B-

Aromatisse is moving up for its fantastic Aroma Veil ability and its respectable bulk. With Fake Out or redirection, Aromatisse can set up Trick Room consistently. Although it's not on the same level as Cresselia when it comes to support, it has a handy niche that sets it aside from other Trick Room setters. Thanks to qsns for the contribution.

 

[lucariomaster2]

I would like to nominate Heracross for B- rank.
Thanks to its fantastic ability in Guts giving it a free +1 Attack and immunity to status, as well as great moves in Close Combat and Megahorn, Heracross is one of the strongest Physical attackers in the meta, having a 56.3% chance to OHKO 252 HP/252 Def Bold Cresselia. It also severely dents Rotom-W and Amoongus, making it a great wallbreaker, and given Tailwind support (a good strategy is to have Heracross Protect on turn 1 to activate its Flame Orb, while its partner sets up Tailwind) it performs very well against offense. Heracross can also run a fun, albeit very gimmicky, Moxie set with Rock Slide once the opposing mons are sufficiently weakened.

So why B- instead of B or A? Heracross has many common weaknesses, including a nasty 4x weakness to Flying, which means Talonflame and Mega Salamence eat it for breakfast. Furthermore, it requires Tailwind or Icy Wind support to be able to show its full potential, because 85 base Speed is not the fastest in the game by any means. Further weaknesses to Fire and Psychic, somewhat common attacking types, further hamper its viablility. Finally, Guts can end up working against it, because if Heracross attacks a mon that uses Protect, it will end up taking 12.5% damage without actually doing anything useful; I know from experience that the Burn damage can end up killing it.

Still, though, if Heracross is given Speed control support and its counters are removed, it can absolutely wreck the opposing team, making it a great fit for B- rank.

EDIT: Calcs.
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 210-248 (92.5 - 109.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 147-174 (66.5 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 114-135 (72.6 - 85.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 198-234 (109.3 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 324-384 (152.8 - 181.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (note that Heracross is outsped and killed outside of Tailwind)

 

[Shounen]

Can I nominate Tornadus-T for somewhere in this list, while it doesn't have the best typing, it has great offensive stats and good defensive stats that allow it to do well in the doubles metagame. It also gets Knock Off and Hurricane, allowing it to be a utility mon and a mon that can deal damage. If you want to abuse it's great speed and it's ability, you can even run U-turn. It can also stop SD sweepers with Foul Play, and can kill steel types with Focus Blast. On another note, I also see Pidgeot is nowhere on this list, I thought it would be C+ or B- at least. It gets access to No Guard and Hurricane, this does make it weak to Stone Edge, but a hurricane that can't miss is pretty valuable especially with it's good speed. I was thinking C+ for Pidgeot, due to no reliable way to beat Tyranitar, but maybe B+ for Torn-T? Considering I don't play this meta too much, I would want support in where these two would go.

 

[NOVED]

Can I nominate Tornadus-T for somewhere in this list, while it doesn't have the best typing, it has great offensive stats and good defensive stats that allow it to do well in the doubles metagame. It also gets Knock Off and Hurricane, allowing it to be a utility mon and a mon that can deal damage. If you want to abuse it's great speed and it's ability, you can even run U-turn. It can also stop SD sweepers with Foul Play, and can kill steel types with Focus Blast. On another note, I also see Pidgeot is nowhere on this list, I thought it would be C+ or B- at least. It gets access to No Guard and Hurricane, this does make it weak to Stone Edge, but a hurricane that can't miss is pretty valuable especially with it's good speed. I was thinking C+ for Pidgeot, due to no reliable way to beat Tyranitar, but maybe B+ for Torn-T? Considering I don't play this meta too much, I would want support in where these two would go.

This is the old thread for XY so that's why pidgeot is not on here.

 

[Shounen]

This is the old thread for XY so that's why pidgeot is not on here.

Oh, I just saw a lot of the ORAS megas/legends and assumed this was the ORAS viability thread .-.