Since even if Gliscor gets banned, we still will have Hamurott and Ting-Lu as the main setter and some other niches as Meowscarada, Ogerpon and Greninja, even if with the last three you prefer attack than set hazards. I'm looking mainly to DLC2 to see if new hazards setters and/or hazard removers will be added, I'm really curios with Excadrill tho to see if it can remove them and help against Gholdengo.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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I haven't been laddering for quite a while and have missed the last 2 suspect tests, even tho the voting thread is up, i forgot to post my alt in the identification thread in time and already played a few games (that i lost) afterwards. Oh well!
So heres my late thoughts on why i think gliscor is broken.
Toxic Versatility
Gliscor is an amazing swiss army knife of a defensive mon, because of this, gliscor has made a lot of other defensive pokemon obsolete or just straight up bad, stuff like Lando-T, Moltres, Skeledirge, Toxapex, Garganacl and more. This means there are less viable counter plays to strong offensive pokemon, Stuff like Rillaboom, Sneaseler (tho i think this mon is still busted even with extra counterplay), Zamazenta and Manaphy are gonna be more threatening with gliscor around. Gliscor is able to knock, spread toxic and set up hazard extremely freely which makes the defensive pokemon i mentioned before much harder to fit on teams, and the current available defesive mons that don't lose as hard to gliscor like Zapdos, Clefable, Slow/Glowking, Great Tusk and Amoonguss can't really deal with the offensive threats that much.
I've seen posts from great players like Highv0ltag3 condemning the ban saying that its just people complaining about spikes and hazards being a nuisance. well, thats been a problem since day 1 of SV, and is a completely separate issue than gliscor (ah, houndstone sand with dual hazard glimm, how i miss the abomination that was that meta). Gliscor just takes the job and utility from other defensive pokemon with the benefit of saying screw you to status, making them almost obsolete, which means less defensive pokemon to account for, which means offense teams will dominate for example: RIllaboom + Sneaseler + Bulk Up Great Tusk. Those 3 pokemon, are countered by zapdos + gholdengo, but they struggle vs mons like heatran or gliscor itself, which doesn't really do well vs the Rillaboom + Snease + Tusk core, so you've set yourself up for a meta that has a very grueling Rock Paper Scissors game baked into it.
Oh and not only that, gliscor is a great balance breaker in itself with its SD Set, its an amazing late game cleaner that can beat the zapdos + tinglu/gliscor cores or even worn down offensive teams, and i would wager that its an even more broken set than the spikes one (which in itself, is already amazing in its own right).
So, banning gliscor will make bulkier teams have more option vs the busted offensive mons we have currently.
So heres my late thoughts on why i think gliscor is broken.
Toxic Versatility
Gliscor is an amazing swiss army knife of a defensive mon, because of this, gliscor has made a lot of other defensive pokemon obsolete or just straight up bad, stuff like Lando-T, Moltres, Skeledirge, Toxapex, Garganacl and more. This means there are less viable counter plays to strong offensive pokemon, Stuff like Rillaboom, Sneaseler (tho i think this mon is still busted even with extra counterplay), Zamazenta and Manaphy are gonna be more threatening with gliscor around. Gliscor is able to knock, spread toxic and set up hazard extremely freely which makes the defensive pokemon i mentioned before much harder to fit on teams, and the current available defesive mons that don't lose as hard to gliscor like Zapdos, Clefable, Slow/Glowking, Great Tusk and Amoonguss can't really deal with the offensive threats that much.
I've seen posts from great players like Highv0ltag3 condemning the ban saying that its just people complaining about spikes and hazards being a nuisance. well, thats been a problem since day 1 of SV, and is a completely separate issue than gliscor (ah, houndstone sand with dual hazard glimm, how i miss the abomination that was that meta). Gliscor just takes the job and utility from other defensive pokemon with the benefit of saying screw you to status, making them almost obsolete, which means less defensive pokemon to account for, which means offense teams will dominate for example: RIllaboom + Sneaseler + Bulk Up Great Tusk. Those 3 pokemon, are countered by zapdos + gholdengo, but they struggle vs mons like heatran or gliscor itself, which doesn't really do well vs the Rillaboom + Snease + Tusk core, so you've set yourself up for a meta that has a very grueling Rock Paper Scissors game baked into it.
Oh and not only that, gliscor is a great balance breaker in itself with its SD Set, its an amazing late game cleaner that can beat the zapdos + tinglu/gliscor cores or even worn down offensive teams, and i would wager that its an even more broken set than the spikes one (which in itself, is already amazing in its own right).
So, banning gliscor will make bulkier teams have more option vs the busted offensive mons we have currently.
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, spikes will be good and thats not a bad thing, but sticky web is a different story, the reason why spikes are an an issue is because gliscor basically guarantees them most of the time, sticky web has a reliable setter in ribombee who outspeeds the alot of the unboosted metagame and has access to stun spore and fairy stab, gholdengo blocks most forms of hazard removal and can beat common hazard removers that aren’t great tusk, thats the issue with gholdengo, it restricts teambuilding to a extremely unhealthy extent and without it sticky web would be far more niche rather than such a problematic playstyle
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I think what people need to understand is that with Sneasler is that it having unburden and poison touch makes it better. It having 394 max attack makes it better, it utilizes defense boosts from unburden makes it better, it having great coverage moves makes it better, it being able to offensive Tera makes it better. This is why Dire Claw is an insane move because if you hit the sleep proc, you put your opponent to sleep and swords dance up and save a game you had no right in winning. If a weak defensive mon had dire claw we might not be talking about it as much. I would personally like to suspect this thing over anything in the tier because it brings no healthy aspect in the meta, both ogerpon and gholdengo at least brings defensive aspects that benefit the meta when it comes to certain threats.
Tera broke gambit, and that isn't changing it seems unless tera goes
I honestly wish Orgepon water would be banned.
Water and Grass combination is hella hard to switch into. Not to mention it has options for coverage like Knock, Low Kick or Play Rough.
Ivy Crudgel having the same BP with Earthquake with crit and no contact makes it even worse. Sure it may be good defensively with Water Absorb, but that also means it can easily switch into a lot of defensive water mons like Empoleon, Alomomola and Milotic and threaten their passive nature.
Water and Grass combination is hella hard to switch into. Not to mention it has options for coverage like Knock, Low Kick or Play Rough.
Ivy Crudgel having the same BP with Earthquake with crit and no contact makes it even worse. Sure it may be good defensively with Water Absorb, but that also means it can easily switch into a lot of defensive water mons like Empoleon, Alomomola and Milotic and threaten their passive nature.
I'm aware of non-trick sticky barb sets; I just call them all tricky barb sets because they functionally are really similar.
48 pp comes from iron defense AND defog???? With roost, it's 56???
Infinitely switching can definitely work, especially if you have something that can remove hazards on Clefable. If your team doesn't mind spikes, let Corviknight absorb the knock offs if you want and defog when needed. In this case, it isn't perfect if the Clefable has a sticky barb, but if you have overlapping answers to Gliscor, you can absorb the sticky barb with a different mon, such as Great Tusk or Hatterene. Otherwise, my point still stands; you CAN switch into a mon that threatens Clefable (and Gliscor) because it forces them to stop their switching around and deal with the threat first.
Also, all teams of a SPECIFIC archetype having to use a mon does not mean that mon is broken. For example, in earlier generations, such as before HOME, almost all bulky offense teams used Great Tusk. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily. Does it mean that Great Tusk should get banned? Not at all. Gliscor fits on so many slower teams because not only is it a good spiker, it's also immune to hazards, which is a good quality in a hazard stack heavy metagame. Hazard stack is also, to be clear, not because of Gliscor, rather Gholdengo (finally can talk about this mon here). As many have pointed out, banning Gliscor does not nerf hazard stack.
Yes, Samurott-H is more of a threat to offense than Gliscor. Even if Gliscor gets a toxic off, it often finds itself getting encored, set up on, and offensively pressured. While Samurott-H does not have that bulk, at least if it finds an opening, it can get respectable damage with ceaseless edge AND set up spikes. Great Tusk cannot even safely remove these hazards on Samurott-H because after a bit of positioning around it, it can get chipped down with razor shells on the switch quickly.
Also, Samurott-H is not that much of a wallbreaker. It's good as a mon, but it's more about setting up hazards. Waiting it out with Clefable + Gliscor after toxicing is a viable option, even if it terastallizes water because even if you take lots of damage, protecting and taking 2 hits can get the job done.
Tera fairy tera blast sets literally deal with all of those lol. If tera is still around kingambit has no business staying
I know it’s a bit early to be thinking about this, but could Serperior possibly snowball into a problem once DLC 2 comes? Considering the 19th Tera type (Aura or something, idk) is presumably a completely-neutral typing, that means Serperior would get to spam STAB Leaf Storm plus completely unwallable and spammable STAB at the same time, while also getting rid of all of its weaknesses. Who even cares about Tera Fire or Tera Ice or Ground at that point? Just click the funny button and nothing walls you.
And what happened to your Tera? Did Kingambit using its Tera surprise you?
It will be viable in OU but its not fast enough to sweep so it would be easy to revenge kill and it will kinda rely in tera most games which is meh. Also gets hard walled by unawares.
they burned it early on a hatterene
The part on Unawares and reliance on Tera is true, but remember this thing has Glare and can be used on Webs to further help it on the Speed end. Not to mention Contrary turns opposing Webs into a speed buff for Serperior.
that's a hell of a presumption, though. we don't know what the type will do. it might be a completely-neutral typing. it might resist itself. it might be an omnitype. it might just give everything stab and not actually change your typing, or the typing of tera blast might mimic the user's typing, or some other overly complicated bullshit. it might even be an actual new type with real weaknesses and resistances (can we finally get something weak to normal please?). until we get more info, which doesn't seem likely until the actual release, we just don't know
I literally have early access to the dlc, its only usable by the new legendary bird pokemon and makes the pokemon hit everything super effectively with TERAnce blast except furret, which is very common in ou anyway
the immense power and speed creep of generation 9 overused
The one thing we do know is that the 19th Tera Type doesn’t hit everything super effectively as shown by 19th Tera Type Tera Blast being neutral against Dragonite in one of the trailers
How2winOnLadder:To me,may be the most broken Pokemon right now.
I will preface this by saying that I don’t necessarily think it’s the most pressing with the ongoing Gliscor suspect and the larger Gholdengo discussion, but it’s absolutely near the top of my radar.
Dire Claw aside, Swords Dance variants have their pick of checks and counters besides a few exceptions. Tera Ghost with Shadow Claw can take out Gholdengo, wall IDef BP Roost Uturn Corv, obstruct Zamazenta, surprise Skeledirge, and handle Dragapult all while neutralizing moves like Hurricane, Future Sight, and Earthquake that now turn into 2HKOs, which is all you really need. Tera Flying suffers from a little coverage issue as you still want Shadow Claw for Ghold, but a Poison move can come in handy. That aside though, coverage is similarly effective universally with very few misses and Flying Acro doing a ton of damage to neutral targets. Even Tera Dark or Tera Fighting with Shadow Claw and Gunk Shot can come in hand.
Dire Claw is another subtopic within the presence of Sneasler as both in general and on some SD variants it can potentially make games unreasonable with not much counterplay, and this would be amplified if Gliscor were to get banned. I think many people point at it and say ban the move to keep Sneasler, but realistically Dire Claw isn’t even all of the issue or close to it. It is an issue that just makes the ongoing threat of Tera SD Sneasler with Terrain even more worrisome (and it validates pivot sets, but I don’t find them to be nearly as problematic).
Some people note that Rillaboom can be seen as a major culprit here as it enables some of the arguably broken strategies like this that we see right now, and to this I say I don’t really agree at the moment, but I get the relationship and if we had more time before DLC2 it’d be at least worthy of a discussion.
I personally plan on giving Sneasler a 5 (or maybe at least a 4) on the next survey if we have another before DLC2, which is still up in the air. Definitely think people figured out the best settings for this Pokemon and are now abusing it better than ever.
Step1:
Pull up one of many Rillaboom Sneasler Samples
Step2:
Start a Game
Step3:
Sack half your team for no reason and put yourself in a horrible position.
Step4:
Set up Grassy Terrain.
Step5:
Sack the Rillaboom
Step6:
Click Sneasler then Click SD
Step7:
Misplay and nearly let your Sneasler die.
Step8:
Click Dire Claw and get the sleep.
Step9:
SD for no reason.
Step10:
Click buttons cuz you have 600+ speed, and nearly 1200 attack.
The only sure thing about Serperior is that it's going to be a menace and a half once it drops, and it's existance is going to invalidate webs as it's the best grounded Contrary mon.
Serpherior is in all likelihood going to get banned very very quickly once it drops unless a lot of other ludacrous stuff also drops. It's very close to espartha - a fast snowbally mon that is nearly unstoppable if it gets to cheat turns. Which tera enables. That can also run multiple sets viable on their own merits - sub seed and sub glare. It's probably not going to invalidate webs for long. It's only major difference between it and espartha is that unlike espartha it doesn't eventually outspeed all scarf mons, but it does get a lot more mind games with sub/seed/glare.
As clearly someone who works has all sorts of insider knowledge and datamined the next twenty-three upcoming pokemon titles (spoiler: hope you like regional variants of Vanillish evolutions that are still ice type).
I can confirm that the new type (called "rainbow" in testing) is super-effective against nothing, but also resisted by nothing both offensively and defensively.
However, the REAL appeal of this new type is that it provides pseudo-immunity to all statuses and non-damaging moves. Immunity to toxic, burn, stealth rock chip, life orb recoil, flinch, everything.
AND you can rainbow tera in addition to regular tera (so one mon can Terainbow and a second, like Kingambit, can tera flying/fairy to beat its checks and counters).
Not only that, but the video failed to showcase the added bonus of Tera Rainbow, which is that three pokemon on both sides immediately faint just by clicking the funny button, no moves involved. It turns 6v6 matches into 3v3 at random, because it's a great way to add variety and skill to the game! When should you tera rainbow? At the start of a battle, to eliminate three possible checks? Or at the end when your opponent only has three pokemon left?
It'll be great for competitive and casual players alike!
I can confirm that the new type (called "rainbow" in testing) is super-effective against nothing, but also resisted by nothing both offensively and defensively.
However, the REAL appeal of this new type is that it provides pseudo-immunity to all statuses and non-damaging moves. Immunity to toxic, burn, stealth rock chip, life orb recoil, flinch, everything.
AND you can rainbow tera in addition to regular tera (so one mon can Terainbow and a second, like Kingambit, can tera flying/fairy to beat its checks and counters).
Not only that, but the video failed to showcase the added bonus of Tera Rainbow, which is that three pokemon on both sides immediately faint just by clicking the funny button, no moves involved. It turns 6v6 matches into 3v3 at random, because it's a great way to add variety and skill to the game! When should you tera rainbow? At the start of a battle, to eliminate three possible checks? Or at the end when your opponent only has three pokemon left?
It'll be great for competitive and casual players alike!
that actually reveals quite a bit. we know now that:
- type 19 is not super effective against everything
- it's not some sort of wacky omnitype (which dragonite would either resist—it has more resistances than weaknesses—or be immune to because it would be part-ground)
- it doesn't cause tera blast to mimic either of the user's base types (otherwise it would be super effective)
- if it's an actual new type, it's either neutral against both dragon and flying or supereffective against one and resisted by the other
this is… terrifyingly plausible
Maybe I'm interpreting that screenshot incorrectly, but has that Bax even Tera'd yet? Will Aura skip the step necessitating Tera to get its type for Tera Blast? Or does pressing the funny button make Tera Blast change in-menu in-game even before the turn goes off? Haven't played my copy of Violet in a minute, if someone could fill me in that'd be great.
…huh. i just realized i've never played a competitive match on cartridge and i didn't run tera blast on anything on my in-game team, so i actually have no idea when, or if, tera blast changes its effectiveness display
Okay, so from this image, we can determine that that the type is neutral to dragon/flying, and I checked and just before you tera, it shows what the effectivness of the move would be.
Tusk isn't removing hazards on clefable bc Moonblast threatens it, treads is borderline unviable and free Gliscor real estate, Cinderace is fake removal, and this whole scenario was about pp stalling Corv to begin with so does Defog Corv really count for much here? Keep in mind that if Corv cant attack due to fear of Barb, you're also letting teammates like boots dirge and boots pult in for free who can spread status and make progress vs your team.
But let's keep going. If my team doesn't mind spikes (hazard proof), and I for some reason also pack a defog corv, and I have overlapping answers to Gliscor such as a Hatterene to absorb the sticky barb, THEN I'm all set vs knock Gliscor+Barb clefable...is this really the DNB argument?
Yes, you can switch into your breaker in the middle of all the switch stalling, but that's not safe nor is it a sustainable solution, as you risk mispredicting and eating Knock Off, eating hazards, getting scouted by protect, etc etc.
Actually yes, this is a bad thing. If I NEED a Tusk on my BO teams, that's not necessarily a sign that Tusk should be banned, but it is a sign of something or the other wrong with the meta. This isn't really an accurate comparison though, because BOs without Tusk were viable whereas Fat without Gliscor rn is unviable.
The many who have pointed this out are dead wrong lmao. Banning Gliscor nerfs hazard stack a lot. Removing the strongest Spiker will obviously make hstack weaker as a playstyle.
I...really can't say more than "I disagree."
Like..."Samurott-H is not that much of a wallbreaker"......
Bruh
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