Gengarite Tiering Discussion [read post #383]

[Skyblade12]

Sure, Mega Gengar can have its moveset designed to take out whatever stops your team... as long as that list doesn't include more than 3 Pokémon in all the tiers that have sufficiently varied typings/movepools/abilities/etc. But it's definitely true that having such a variety of things that can run sets to block you would be unusual. The issue isn't having to run all of them on your team to stop Mega Gengar. The issue is that if too many exist, Mega Gengar's role becomes less reliable as there's a chance of its highly-specialised set failing when the thing it's designed to get rid of isn't there, and something else with an equal or at least sufficiently similar effect on your team is. Now you've wasted your Mega slot on an overspecialised Pokémon that can't necessarily do much to the opponent's other stuff.

First, point out a SINGLE sweeper that can be effectively stopped by three completely different types of walls. It doesn't happen. Sweepers are effective for a reason, they are not that easy to stop.

What I was saying about substituting a fake in for the real counter to bait Gengar, however, was that you can do something like run an offensive Skarmory while having something else that can wall with screens/Cotton Guard/etc.

Except that no one runs offensive Skarmory, because it has horrible stats for it, leading back to the over specialization argument (you're really doing a great job of pointing out why he needs to be banned, so thanks). Even with its best offensive set, offensive Skarmory is a waste of a movepool. And can you think of anything that Skarmory can wall which could also be walled effectively by the set you describe? Especially since it likely won't get setup type when it's thrown in front of the sweeper?

All of that said, you know what? Whatever. While I tend to be against banning much of anything on a conceptual level (especially nonsense like Evasion, where no-miss moves are very commonly available, as are no-miss phasing moves and the new-and-improved no-miss Toxic-used-by-Poison-types, as are things like Foresight, No Guard, Keen Eye, etc.), and as much as I would love to see what would happen if Smogon's entire metagame was rebuilt from the ground up, this thing is almost certain to be a serious problem in the future for many teams. I doubt it'll be much of a problem on PS though, since nobody running Mega Gengar knows what they're doing yet.

What I really wish they'd ban are Hydro Pump and Fire Blast. If hoping an Evasion boost makes a move miss is a luck based strategy, not a true strategy, then the same is true of running a move with <100 Accuracy and hoping it hits.

But, yeah, Mega Gengar going to get banned. It's very, very clearly unhealthy to the metagame, and your arguments have really been hurting the anti-ban side, not helping it. Arguing "It would completely restructure the metagame and be so cool!" is exactly why it won't be kept around.

You want to know what would happen if the metagame were rebuilt from the ground up? Nothing, really. The metagame did not form by chance. It came from practiced play and observation. It isn't random. Pokémon is a game of almost pure mathematics. Typing, stats, moves, they all boil down to numbers. Pressing reset won't change those numbers. The equations work out the same.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Megalinks, if you want to post, please do so forming posts that have actual content worth reading. Don't just spot off brain farts. Wiz T7, be careful of the same. Consider this a warning to put more thought into your posts, and not just spout off 1 liners both of you.

 

[FlameUser64]

I just want to bring up Assault Vest Snorlax as a potential Mega Gengar check before I disappear again. It actually has a fair amount of potential as a Special counter in general, not just for potentially doing decently against Mega Gengar.

 

[StonekingZ]

The thing is. . .
mGengar cannot be countered. . .

 

[Schpoonman]

I just want to bring up Assault Vest Snorlax as a potential Mega Gengar check before I disappear again. It actually has a fair amount of potential as a Special counter in general, not just for potentially doing decently against Mega Gengar.

How does this stop Mega Gengar from Perish Trapping you? You've walled Gengar, which Blissey and Chansey still do all day long because Modest Mega Gengar is only barely more powerful than Timid Life Orb Gengar, but this has done nothing to prevent it from KOing you with Perish Song. Whirlwind Snorlax might have some merit, but Assault Vest prevents you from doing that, and neither of these help you when trying to save another Pokemon from being Perish Trapped.

 

[yoman5]

so gengar wrecks defensive mons. how does gengar perform against hyper offense and bulky offense? where they dont really wall, they are more interested in breaking walls and sweeping. what does gengar offer against these teams who dont carry the mons mega gengar is likely built to take on?

 

[Over Zealous]

Okay, so let's get this straight.

So every Pokemon that doesn't normally run U-Turn, Volt Switch, or Baton Pass (or hell, doesn't even get them) should run Shed Shell as an item. Totally legit.

And how are you going to switch out the Pokemon that don't have priority before Gengar can kill them.

130 base speed, so either a super fast taunter (Deo-S, which dies to Shadow Ball if you taunt), or run a scarfed Taunter, yeah, great shut down.

If you're switching Mega Gengar into attacks, you're using it wrong. Also, pretty sure Hidden Power Ice OHKOs Gliscor.

Once again, they can't switch in, and Mega Gengar is faster than Noivern, so unless you're running scarfed Noivern (LOL), then the only one that Speed ties is Crobat.

Yeah there are Pokemon that can do well against certain Mega Gengar sets, but wait, they can't switch in thanks to Shadow Tag, so it still accomplished its job before you can "counter it". As Rey said, counters do no exist since Shadow Tag prevents switching, which is the essence of a counter. There are only checks.

Yes, let's get this straight. Common pivot moves like U-Turn and Volt Switch are merely options to avoid trapping. No team requires Volt Switch or U-Turn or Shed Shell to stop Gengarite. It's only COMMON countermeasures.

Gengarite is fast, but even a life orb Gengar is a stronger sweeper.

Taunt merely stops potential sub sets. Additionally, sound based users and Infiltrators can resist Gengarite's common sets, and retaliate or force a switch.

Noivern commonly runs Choice Scarf or Choice Spec. Scarf ensures he outspeeds other fast Scarf users for valuable revenge kills.

Gengarite doesn't necessarily commonly run HP Ice. And even if Gengarite runs HP Ice, plenty of other Pokemon can wall, check, and stop him.

Gengarite is fast, specially offensive, but frail, and prone to all sorts of priority, and even common Earthquake. He is also regularly outsped by various Scarf users.

Ask yourself why he should be quickbanned. He loses valuable immunities, the loss of an item, etc. At the end of the day, Gengarite does not break the OU metagame, and he does not limit or restrict teambuilding.

 

[Lady Alex]

You're grossly underestimating it. MGengar isn't a sweeper, so I don't know why you mention that LO gengar is stronger (it's not even a sweeper either). It's a broken utility pokemon that can perform it's job (which is trapping one or two pokemon on the opponents team to pave the way for something else on your team to sweep) with almost zero counterplay. No one is going to keep MGengar on something that will potentially screw it over. What exactly do you plan on Taunting it with? None of the common taunt users appreciate taking a stab shadow ball. Noivern? Who cares if it threatens MGengar. MGengar isn't going to bother trying to deal with it. Honestly, almost everything that does well 1 on 1 against Mgengar is irrelevant, since all it has to do is wait for its opportunity with the free momentum that rotom-w and Scizor happily give it. Once Mgengar is in on what it wants to trap, there's nothing you can do about it and your checks to it are suddenly worthless. It's an interesting case of "It's so broken and difficult to even remotely reliably check that it's not even worth trying to check."

 

[StonekingZ]

No, that is not the only argument as to why it should be banned. . .
Have you looked through this thread? At all. . ?

 

[StonekingZ]

Gengarite has a useful and effective niche, but can be checked, countered and worked around. He doesn't actually break the metagame.

It cannot be countered, I don't understand why people continue to say it has counters. Nothing can switch out on it. It's impossible.
In order to be a counter, you have to be able to switch in and stop it at what it does.
Since nothing can switch in, it cannot have counters. . .
Stop saying "this counters mGengar" and so does "that". It's impossible to counter something with Shadow Tag. . .

Counter:
"A defensive Pokemon capable of being tailored to switch in and counter a variety of different threats, but not all at once. Primarily added to a team to counter a specific threat while also dealing with miscellaneous other threats."

Also, you ask what other reason it has to be banned?
Because as soon as it switches in, if you don't have something that is built for that exact moveset, you're losing a Pokemon. It's as simple as that. If you guess the wrong moveset, you're losing your Poke. End of story.
It's the perfect Pokemon to trap whatever threatens your team, take it out, and allows whatever your "sweeper" is to sweep.
You have this Poke? And this, this, and that counter it? Cool, let's tailor Gengar to take those threats out if he gets the chance.

 

[Shibato]

Gengar is quite powerful, Mega or not. However, I believe Gengarite should be aloud in OU. With the loss of Levitate he gains another weakness to common Ground type attacks. You do also get one free switch before he uses his Gengarite to MegaEvolve. While 130 base speed is quite high, many Choice Scarf users can easily out speed him, or boosters if you get the chance before he comes in. Garchomp and Tyrantrum while scarfed can easily out speed and OHKO M-Gengar. Klefki's Prankster Thunder Waves also slow him down quite abit.

Shadow Tag is also a great ability, and can set up a kill for M-Gengar, but its not devastating. I've lost my fair share of Tyranitars to Focus Blast because of Shadow Tag on an already M-Evolved Gengar, but other Pokemon on the team have easily handled M-Gengar, even with Shadow Tag. He doesn't have the sheer power to break special walls from what I've seen, and you see plenty M-Gengars running around. When building a team, M-Gengar doesn't come up so much as "I need a Ghost check."

I say keep the Gengarite in OU, its a good option for Gengar, but its not game breaking by any means in my opinion.

 

[Style_Dota]

Yes, let's get this straight. Common pivot moves like U-Turn and Volt Switch are merely options to avoid trapping. No team requires Volt Switch or U-Turn or Shed Shell to stop Gengarite. It's only COMMON countermeasures.

Gengarite is fast, but even a life orb Gengar is a stronger sweeper.

Taunt merely stops potential sub sets. Additionally, sound based users and Infiltrators can resist Gengarite's common sets, and retaliate or force a switch.

Noivern commonly runs Choice Scarf or Choice Spec. Scarf ensures he outspeeds other fast Scarf users for valuable revenge kills.

Gengarite doesn't necessarily commonly run HP Ice. And even if Gengarite runs HP Ice, plenty of other Pokemon can wall, check, and stop him.

Gengarite is fast, specially offensive, but frail, and prone to all sorts of priority, and even common Earthquake. He is also regularly outsped by various Scarf users.

Ask yourself why he should be quickbanned. He loses valuable immunities, the loss of an item, etc. At the end of the day, Gengarite does not break the OU metagame, and he does not limit or restrict teambuilding.

Without U-Turn, Volt Switch, or Shed Shell, tell me how you plan on removing the Pokemon that can get picked off by Mega Gengar?

Guess what? Modest Mega Gengar is stronger AND faster than Timid Life Orb Gengar AND has no Life Orb recoil!

Once again, Pokemon can wall and check him AFTER he takes out the Pokemon that he wants. To the Gengar user, he doesn't give a shit after that.

Oh yeah, he's prone to only Shadow Sneak, which even Mega Banette with the hightest base attack, fails to OHKO. Solild. Also, what happens when you have your scarfer that gets locked into something that can't OHKO Mega Gengar, or hell, Mega-Gar is immune to. There goes your scarfer. Perfect example. Scarf Keldeo uses HP Ice to stop a rampaging Scarfed Salamence. Now Mega Gengar comes in and kills your Keldeo while you do a solid 60 ish percent. Now you lose your scarfer and can no longer outspeed Gengar.

Soundproof users resist Perish Song, and that's it. You stop one set, what about the other sets it can run? In addition, once again, YOU CANT BRING THEM IN ON GENGAR UNTIL ONE OF YOUR POKEMON DIES.

Noivern with it's amazing base special attack is going to run a Choice Scarf? lol okay.

At the end of the day, you should realize that why he should be banned is that he loses a single immunity, an item that doesn't really mean shit, and the ability to pick of any single Pokemon he wants based on its set. It's the best support Pokemon to possibly exist ever in the metagame, and should be banned under support clause.

Also, it's been a week, can we close this thread before I get cancer?

 

[Over Zealous]

It cannot be countered, I don't understand why people continue to say it has counters. Nothing can switch out on it. It's impossible.
In order to be a counter, you have to be able to switch in and stop it at what it does.
Since nothing can switch in, it cannot have counters. . .
Stop saying "this counters mGengar" and so does "that". It's impossible to counter something with Shadow Tag. . .

Counter:
"A defensive Pokemon capable of being tailored to switch in and counter a variety of different threats, but not all at once. Primarily added to a team to counter a specific threat while also dealing with miscellaneous other threats."

Also, you ask what other reason it has to be banned?
Because as soon as it switches in, if you don't have something that is built for that exact moveset, you're losing a Pokemon. It's as simple as that. If you guess the wrong moveset, you're losing your Poke. End of story.
It's the perfect Pokemon to trap whatever threatens your team, take it out, and allows whatever your "sweeper" is to sweep.
You have this Poke? And this, this, and that counter it? Cool, let's tailor Gengar to take those threats out if he gets the chance.

A check or counter: Pokemon which threatens another, reduces its usefulness, prevents, etc.

Shadow Tag only activates after the first full turn after its Mega Evolution. This allows a switch into a counter, subsequently nullifying Shadow Tag by forcing a switch, or even KOing.

If Gengarite doesn't OHKO, he is OHKOed. Without the use of an item, he so commonly fails to OHKO COMMON OU Pokemon. Please understand this.

 

[Shroomisaur]

Gengarite has a niche for trapping, but he functions as a sweeper and revenge killer, also.

So any Pokemon with a great niche should be quickbanned, including any and all trappers?

That is an absolutely horrible straw man.

Dugtrio can also trap, and "pave the way for something else on your team to sweep."

Many people have tried to make this comparison, but it's a false one because Mega Gengar is very different (and far superior to Dugtrio or any other trappers).

Again, Taunting is a countermeasure against Destiny Bond sets, preventing it from grabbing a second KO, and also Sub sets. Any Prankster can Taunt Gengarite, as well as any Scarf user. Don't act like Gengarite can't be outsped, be it Pranker, Scarf, Priority, etc.

What kind of Taunter is going to stop a Destiny Bond from Megagar? It outspeeds every relevant taunt user, meaning it can simply attack them. If it can't KO, it can just switch out to a counter. The only two Pokemon with a Prankster Taunt are Tornadus/Thundrus and yes, they can Taunt Megagar to prevent Destiny Bond... but if they do they are also outsped and 2HKO'd by Megagar. So that's hardly a sound strategy. Gengar will likely switch out of these mons anyway if they're fully healthy.

As Pokemon happily give Gengarite momentum, so to these Pokemon can pivot out of its trap. Don't argue with narrow scenarios.

And why would MegaGar choose to come in against a target that it knows it can't OHKO and that can escape out of Shadow Tag? Mega Gengar is played like an "sniper" or "assassin" and won't just trade blows with an opponent it can't beat.

Or perhaps you're simply foolish and ignorant.

In no sense does Gengarite force players to build a specific way, or rely upon a single check or counter.

A slew of defensive sets tank Gengarite's sets, and can check and counter it.

Gengarite isn't the god you seem to think it is.

See ya.

You're not going to get anywhere by insulting other posters when your own arguments are full of holes. So yes, "See ya".

 

[FlameUser64]

Lord of Bays
No, Snorlax doesn't just wall Mega Gengar. I dare say that if you're dumb enough to leave Mega Gengar in on an Assault Vest Snorlax you deserve what's coming to you, because that Crunch off 110 base Attack with a positive nature like Brave (which AV Snorlax can afford to run, because what is Snorlax outspeeding anyway?) is going to hurt.

 

[StonekingZ]

A check or counter: Pokemon which threatens another, reduces its usefulness, prevents, etc.

Shadow Tag only activates after the first full turn after its Mega Evolution. This allows a switch into a counter, subsequently nullifying Shadow Tag by forcing a switch, or even KOing.

If Gengarite doesn't OHKO, he is OHKOed. Without the use of an item, he so commonly fails to OHKO COMMON OU Pokemon. Please understand this.

You switched into a "counter"? Cool story. . .
I'm totally keeping my mGengar in on it. . .
I got my mega off, that's all that matters. Now, I switch out, and he can do his job later when the opportunity arises.
After I have mega Evolved, please, tell me how you're getting your counter in, I'd love to know.

 

[Style_Dota]

A check or counter: Pokemon which threatens another, reduces its usefulness, prevents, etc.

This is not true. A check is a Pokemon that can defeat another Pokemon in a standard 1 v 1 situation. A counter is a Pokemon that can switch in to that Pokemon and win in a standard 1 v 1 situation. Please learn the difference.

 

[TeraVolt]

There are many common countermeasures.

I don't post here often, but what "common counter measures"? Seriously, I want to know.

The only "common countermeasure" I can think of is Volt Switch/U-Turn and M-Gar can out speed and/or seriously dent most mons who run those. Besides that Mega Gengar can just opt to switch out or just not switch in. Meanwhile anything M-gar switches into has no such luxury and thus, could just switch in on something that CANT DO THAT. And indeed typically does.

As for taunt, which taunt user out speeds Mega Gengar? Because all I can think of are prankster Sableye and M-Banette and M Aerodactyl all of whom are destroyed with the appropriate move. The rest get obliterated in one maybe two shots, if they're lucky.

Which mons counter (can switch in to any attack repeatedly with little to no risk) not Check (Cannot repeatedly take attacks but can switch in at least once and either force them out or KO) him? He can even take out fricken Blissey since she can't touch him and can just stalls her out by spamming whatever. And the big reason M-Gar is considered nearly unstoppable, despite his lack of ability to dispose of certain walls is that HE CAN JUST SWITCH OUT. Meanwhile, when Mega Gengar switches into something he can actually kill (be they weak to him, or previously weakened) they lose that luxury. There has never been a pokemon to receive stats/movepool this good AND a trapping ability and can just pick off whatever he can, whenever he gets the opportunity AT LEISURE and there's nothing they can do about it.

And for the record, Mega Gengar is not a sweeper. He's like a better Mega Banette. A one stop counter/check to nearly to any problem pokemon.

Seriously, please, tell me who this Mega Gengar COUNTERING pokemon is. Bearing in mind he can probably just Destiny bond/Perish Song stall them anyway.

 

[Style_Dota]

Get it through your skull: Volt Switch, U-Turn, Shed Shell, Red Card phasing, etc, are simply common countermeasures. Don't run them? That's fine. Gengarite still doesn't break the game.

Don't run em? Well then looks like you're not switching! And if your Pokemon can't beat Gengar, it dies. I don't get how this is so difficult to understand.

It's not the fact that it can't beat every single fucking Pokemon, it's the fact that it picks off whatever you want, which allows the team to basically go to town if Gengar removes a counter.

 

[Shroomisaur]

So you invent definitions? Please do not solely rely upon Smogon's - or a Wikis - definition.

Any Pokemon which prevents or reduces Gengarite's apparently "overpowered" niche is a check/counter. There's plenty.

Right, we shouldn't rely on Smogon's definitions of "counter" while on Smogon.

Wut.

Also I'm very interested to hear this supposedly lengthy list of Mega Gengar check/counters.

 

[Skyblade12]

A check or counter: Pokemon which threatens another, reduces its usefulness, prevents, etc.

Smogon was really the community that defined these terms for the Pokémon metagame. I don't think you'll find anyone who is at all at a strong follower of the Pokémon competitive game who doesn't accept and respect Smogon's definitions for these terms, even if you're not using Smogon's tiering or battle layout (such as the official Nintendo tournament community).

Shadow Tag only activates after the first full turn after its Mega Evolution. This allows a switch into a counter, subsequently nullifying Shadow Tag by forcing a switch, or even KOing.

If Gengarite doesn't OHKO, he is OHKOed. Without the use of an item, he so commonly fails to OHKO COMMON OU Pokemon. Please understand this.

Any Pokémon which can threaten Mega-Gengar with a OHKO is a Pokémon that Mega-Gengar can either OHKO itself, or switch out of. We've already determined that even the best Pursuit users can't stop it from switching out. And once switched out, you lose the grace period. And this is still making a lot of assumptions in the favor of the team facing Mega-Gengar.

 

[Soul Fly]

a counter is something which can switch in



please tell me which of these things are switching in.

 

[Schpoonman]

No, Snorlax doesn't just wall Mega Gengar. I dare say that if you're dumb enough to leave Mega Gengar in on an Assault Vest Snorlax you deserve what's coming to you, because that Crunch off 110 base Attack with a positive nature like Brave (which AV Snorlax can afford to run, because what is Snorlax outspeeding anyway?) is going to hurt.

You seem to still be missing the point. If Mega Gengar's supposed brokenness lay in its offensive prowess, we would not be having this discussion. Blissey and Chansey still wall it. Goodra, a new addition with HIGHER special defense than Blissey or Chansey and very significant offense with which to royally fuck Mega Gengar, walls it. Yeah, Assault Vest Snorlax walls it and destroys it with Pursuit and Crunch. You know what? None of these Pokemon can stop Gengar from Perish Song trapping. That is why Gengar is being quick banned, not because it's an offensive force of nature.

 

[shadowyoshi64]

I'm just throwing something out there, but if one of the targets of MGengar is holding a Shed Shell, then it would be possible to counter MGengar, because you are able to switch?

 

[StonekingZ]

I'm just throwing something out there, but if one of the targets of MGengar is holding a Shed Shell, then it would be possible to counter MGengar, because you are able to switch?

Yes, but why force someone to carry shed shell when you can just ban it all together?
If you have a poke with worry seed it can stop Blaziken from abusing speed boost.
Does that mean it should be OU?
Of course not.