CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 9.5 (Main/Secondary Ability Poll)

[Hyra]

Agreeing with Hyra in a way, Tar would often prefer no Sandstream and I think in the case of this pokemon too Sun is definitly a double edged sword.

what? you can't take what I say and try to get the counter point used. I was saying Tyranitar was the exception, not the norm. Abomasnow, Kyogre, Hippowdon, and Groudon (to a lesser extent than the others) all use their ability to influence their playstyle (they're in greatest-->least order of who uses it most). Abomasnow is used solely for Hail. Kyogre be a much smaller threat if it didn't have double-STAB Surf/Hydro Pump/Water Spout. Hippowdon uses Sandstream to help it stall stuff to death. Groudon uses Sun in the most general sense, either to remove Kyogre's rain or to boost the uncommon Fire moves on it. This Pokemon would be somewhere around Kyogre on how much weather influences it.

TTar doesn't fit in with the rest, because he doesn't really care about the 1.5x SDef boost most of the time. The boost and damage from Sand help him, but aren't essential to his strategy.

 

[Aldaron]

Wait what? When is Sun ever a problem for this Pokemon?

Also, what self respecting trainer actually doesn't want Tyranitar to get a Special Defense boost (...besides me...>_>)?

 

[Hyra]

Wait what? When is Sun ever a problem for this Pokemon?

Also, what self respecting trainer actually doesn't want Tyranitar to get a Special Defense boost (...besides me...>_>)?

those who care more about their other sweepers not losing 6% every turn. (walls don't count, they usually have Lefties).

also, they mean Sun makes Fire moves from Fire types stronger, and Fire types are counter #1 right now, so helping your #1 counters (somewhat) is a problem (somewhat).

 

[Hazmat]

woodman/heatran double trouble
the new gyaravire?

 

[Time Mage]

OK. First of all: You guys write too much! 8 pages in one night, wow. I actually read all of them, but... Damn.

Regarding Greenhouse, I think it's a potentially awesome ability to have in the metagame... but NOT on this pokémon. No. As said countless times, something with the Stat Rating of Abomasnow (or less, because Aboma gets also a full set of horrible weaknesses) would be great with this, but not the current bulky bastard we have.


Also, my votes:

Battle Armor, because it's a decent boost without making it overpowered, and has the bonus of fitting the artwork perfectly.

Scrappy, because Revenankh right now makes spinning away stuff really hard.

 

[Aldaron]

Fires do not counter this guy...how in the hell do Fires counter him? He Leech Seeds them and then laughs...

 

[Luck]

those who care more about their other sweepers not losing 6% every turn. (walls don't count, they usually have Lefties).

also, they mean Sun makes Fire moves from Fire types stronger, and Fire types are counter #1 right now, so helping your #1 counters (somewhat) is a problem (somewhat).

I disagree with fire types as the number 1 counter.Heatran is number 1 counter and the reason this poke is being made because fire types suck in standard play.The way metagame is set up no other fire can be count on constantly to beat this pokemon when stealth rock and sandstream,toxic spikes are such a big a part of the game.

Counter list

Heatran
Togekiss
Salamence/D-nite
Tentacruel
Crobat
Gliscor
Muk/Drapion/Nido
Regirock/Cradily

We have set movepool to where you have to choose between Hp ice and Hp ground.Choose ground the flyers beat it or choose ice heatran and poison crew beat it.

 

[Mekkah]

Sorry Aldaron, I know the risk, but it sounds too fun. If it's too bad I guess we'll have to justt send it off to ubers.

That's not a risk I'm willing to take. This project is made for OU. If this thing turns broken, I would rather nerf it than write it off.

Anyway, I'd love to vouch for Scrappy, but it is way behind monsters such as Greenhouse, Battle Armor and Rock Head. I'm really praying to my knees that this thing is NOT[/b ]getting Greenhouse, because it totally was not what I intended to make of this thing. I just wanted an anti-tank tank that could take and dish out hits...but not to this extent. I still think it should get Rapid Spin though. Those who yell about moveslot syndrome be damned, adding a useful move to a movepool is never a bad thing for that Pokemon. Being able to choose between 5 moves < being able to choose between 6 or more.

My votes are for Battle Armor and Rock Head. I really think it's a shame everyone went on such a lopsided ability such as Greenhouse.

EDIT: yeah X-Act I meant "not getting Greenhouse"

 

[eric the espeon]

my votes go to.

1. Solar Power
2. Rock Head

 

[Aki]

Right. The only people we have to blame here is ourselves. We went overboard at the suggestion at Auto-Weather, we didn't realise the implications. I've posted in the new Weather thread in regards to OU level auto-weather, and i really think that's the only way to deal with weather. This idea has been brought up too quickly too soon. I urge people to reconsider for the sake of the metagame, and that we discuss putting this on a future pokemon after discussing and changing the weather effects.

 

[Deck Knight]

Fires do not counter this guy...how in the hell do Fires counter him? He Leech Seeds them and then laughs...

Yes, because surely with 120 Base HP of its own, Leech Seed and Leftovers are healing a combined and MIGHTY 15% HP.

EVERY fire type is a sweeper (except Torkoal with LOL Rapid Spin for Leech Seed and Magcargo).

Adamant Arcanine Flare Blitz (no boost) to 252 HP Fire/Grass: 41-49%. You use Sunny Day and this 2HKO's you easily. It gets a Flash Fire off a lured fire move and it 2HKO's you easily. CB Arcy solidly 2HKO's you, and OHKO's with CB under sun or with an FF boost. Sure it costs it a load of HP, but it still beats the crap out of you.

Jolly Rapidash Flare Blitz (no boost) to 252 HP Fire/Grass: 35-42%. Yet another 2HKO under sun, or with Flash Fire.

Modest Magmortar/Moltres Fire Blast (no boost) to 252 HP Fire/Grass: 52-61%.

Timid Houndoom/Charizard Fire Blast (no boost) to 252 HP Fire/Grass: 39-46%. This falls under the same category of "have a nice day" during Sunny Day or with a Flash Fire boost or with Specs.

Modest Heatran Fire Blast (no boost) to 252 HP Fire/Grass: 53-62%. Solid 2HKO without sun, FF, or Specs.

Timid Ninetales Fire Blast (no boost) on 252 HP Fire/Grass: 35-41%. Ninetales has Nasty Plot and FF and it can use Sun, any one of which with NP turns into a OHKO.

Unless your set is Leech Seed/HP Rock/Fire Blast/Grass Knot, you don't have a shot in hell of defeating all of these pokemon before they slaughter you. Heatran easily defeats HP Rock, Charizard and Moltres solidly defeat HP Ground. Moreover, this cannot switch into any Fire type and Leech Seed because they all easily 3HKO it even with the minor healing it gets from Leech Seed.

As a matter of fact, if this gets Auto-Sun, Every single Fire type listed above can 2HKO it, no questions asked. In fact, they would just love to switch into Fire Blast too so they can utterly rape the next thing you send in.

Given this, if Gothic_Togekiss doesn't excercise sound judgement and kill Autosun now or shortly, there's no way in hell I'm supporting Stun Spore on this.

 

[X-Act]

I'm really praying to my knees that this thing is getting Greenhouse, because it totally was not what I intended to make of this thing.

I think you mean you're praying it's NOT getting Greenhouse. :x

By the way, have it ever occurred to you why all non-uber weather inducers have quite a few common weaknesses (most have a x4 weakness)?

This thing has none of these. Its weaknesses are Rock and Flying, together with Poison, which is seldom used. And it kinda gets a x1.5 weakness to Fire if it gets Greenhouse, which is traded for a x0.5 resistance to Water, where before it was neutral.

Not only that, but it's quite bulky as well. None of the other weather-inducers are this bulky. This thing is actually very slightly more bulky than Groudon and Kyogre (their overall tankiness is 78.8, which is about equal to this thing's overall tankiness of 78.9).

As I said, I really like Greenhouse, or even Drought... just not on this particular Pokemon.

 

[Aki]

X-Act wants to read my post in the Weather Discussion thread. As for Deck Knight, Are you supporting greenhouse or not?

 

[Grawl]

Greenhouse voters, realize what you are doing. Without Greenhouse, Woodman will be a perfectly fine OU'er. I would have been strong, but not too strong. What you are doing, is taking this strong pokemon and making it 1.5 times better. Could you image Suicune becoming 1.5 times stronger? Or Heatran?

And don't start with: Rain Dance/Sunny Day would do the same. The difference is, that he doesn't need it. He's basicly getting a stats boost. You're giving a top OU pokemon a stats boost.

And on the subject of RD/SD being different.
1) He gets one more move to use. So instead of Sunny Day, this guy will be using Hidden Power or a Ground move or a Rock move or hell, maybe even a recovery move.
2) Yes, you could just give another pokemon Sunny Day. But that would mean Woodman will suffer a hit while switching in. Add Stealth Rock Damage to that and he'll be a lot easier to take done. He might not even be able to switch in if the Sunny Day user and Woodman have the same counter (Heatran?)
3)Sunny Day has to be used first. Imagine Kingdra firing away to moment it's switched in. There isn't a lot that likes to take on 2 boosted hits from Kingdra and it's the same for Woodman. You think Blissey can take a special hit? Try taking two. Or maybe even more if the guys has Substitute. You want to switch Heatran in? Too bad that's one of the few "counters" left, so there will probably be waiting a HP Ground. Setting up first or attacking right away is a big difference. Ask any pokemon with a stat boosting move.

 

[Deck Knight]

X-Act wants to read my post in the Weather Discussion thread. As for Deck Knight, Are you supporting greenhouse or not?

If I didn't say it before, I hope Greenhouse crashes and burns in a firey, terrorist size explosioney death. I voted for Battle Armor and Leaf Guard.

IF it gets it though, I will gladly always carry Subversal 'Doom with pride and slaughter every last one of you. Or something. Or NP Ninetales. Or really anything that says "screw you" to this while being able to take out Heatran and otherwise use the Sun to effect harsh brutality on everything.

 

[Nokocchi]

I completely agree with DJD
And if this does turn out Uber, at least it is the only Grass-type and Fire-type uber :P
(Other than Arceus -_-)

Ho-oh.



Main Trait
Battle Armor

Secondary Trait
Leaf Guard

 

[Hyra]

Agreeing with Mekkah, Deck Knight, X-Act, and Grawl entirely. We can do weather traits, just not on something we designed to be competitive without the major boost Rain/Sun gives.

Also, Deck Knight said what I meant by Greenhouse somewhat helping Fires counter it. He forgot the switch-in damage, which is going to be high unless you have Flash Fire (I'm talking ~40%).

 

[Helios]

Just a thought; why don't we give this thing Greenhouse and remove hidden pow-*a new page occurs, making everyone ignore my post... AGAIN*. Anyway, I vote for Battle armour and Bask/Chlorophyll.

 

[Hyra]

Just a thought; why don't we give this thing Greenhouse and remove hidden pow-*a new page occurs, making everyone ignore my post... AGAIN*. Anyway, I vote for Battle armour and Bask/Chlorophyll.

no new page yet.

anyways, this would be a Good Idea, if not for the fact that everyone outside of Weedle + Kakuna clones, and Magikarp gets this move. Unown gets it (yes it is his gimmick) and he has the smallest movepool ever. I think it would be very hard to remove Hidden Power without destroying all remaining traces of theme.

 

[Deck Knight]

Agreeing with Mekkah, Deck Knight, X-Act, and Grawl entirely. We can do weather traits, just not on something we designed to be competitive without the major boost Rain/Sun gives.

Also, Deck Knight said what I meant by Greenhouse somewhat helping Fires counter it. He forgot the switch-in damage, which is going to be high unless you have Flash Fire (I'm talking ~40%).

Yeah, Arcanine with 212 EVs (same as Base 95 w/max) and positive nature deals 49-57% on 0/0 Arcanine. Really it neccesitates Flare Fire pokemon as counters to this, or Kingdra, which takes less that 30% from FB even in the Sun. Although LO Magmortar/Moltres Fire Blast and Overheat in the sun OHKOs this (I'm assumng 252 HP again) handily. CB Arcy Flare Blitz in Sunny Day OHKO's it half the time (geez this has big def). Houndoom should only come in if it has FF. Moltres needs 140 HP EV's to always survive Fire Blast + SR damage in the Sun (assuming 252 Modest on Fire/Grass. Without max SA it doesn't come close). It can then Roost off the damage. FB in Sun when resisted is essentially just as powerful as HP Rock/Ground when SE.

 

[Bass]

Well, some of the abilities I wanted didn't make it to the poll, so here are my votes:

Main Ability: Rock Head
Secondary Ability: Battle Armor

 

[Jace the Mind Sculptor]

Again, all the advantages of giving this pokemon Greenhouse can be done by giving this pokemon Solar Powr instead and while keeping it within the boundaries of its checks. Here is an example of an in battle situation:

Situation with Greenhouse:

Woodman comes in. Sun starts. Woodman takes 25% from Stealth Rock. Turn ends.

Opponent switches to a Woodman counter, Togekiss. Togekiss receives 25% damage from Stealth Rock.
Woodman uses Fire Blast on the switchin. Plenty of damage dealt.

If its not a KO, then Togekiss is dead next turn regardless. NOT a counter.

Situation with Solar Power:

Woodman comes in. Woodman takes 25% from Stealth Rock. Turn ends.

Opponent switches to a Woodman counter, Togekiss. Togekiss receives 25% damage from Stealth rock. Woodman uses Sunny Day. Turn ends.

Togekiss threatens with X moves (may it be paralysis or air slash) because it is faster.
Woodman must switch out or take nearly full damage. If Woodman stays in to KO Togekiss, it will surely die from its own Solar Power Recoil.

This situation roughly outlines how battles will be with either of the two abilities. Yes you can argue about many different supposed counters, but Togekiss feels like one of the best counters and if this pokemon had Greenhouse than it no longer is a counter, as with many other pokemon. Thus Solar Power is indeed the best offensive ability this pokemon should have. It gives a rise in Sunny Day teams, while not making this pokemon too uncounterable.

Also, I dont understand Rock Head at all. I honestly would like someone to give me a situation (other than blissey) where Flame Blitz/Wood Hammer out damages Fire Blast/SolarBeam/Grass Knot so much that there is an actual need to prevent the recoil damage from the physical moves. Honestly, giving this thing Rock Head just seems like complete wasted potential. It will not be a popular ability once this pokemon gets finished simply because a special set is just better. Please prove me wrong because I simply dont see the need. Besides, Synthesis should be given, which can compensate for the recoil damage, see my situation below.

Also, Leaf Guard makes for the best defensive ability. Honestly I dont know why so many peaple agree with Battle Armor. Preventing something that only occurs 6.25% of the time? Seems like a complete wasted ability. I much rather have an ability I can manipulate than one that I cant. Take this situation as an example:

X of my Pokemon Sets-up an 8 turn Sunny Day.

Opponent has a Gengar out.

I switch in Woodman. Gengar's Hypnosis was blocked.

Cool huh. Or:

Woodman uses Sunny Day. Opponent switches to Blissey.
(Blissey now can't possibly due anything to Woodman other than Seismic Toss it).
Woodman uses Wood Hammer/Flare Blitz. Blissey uses Seismic Toss.

Woodman uses Synthethis (which I am a proponent for). Blissey switches out.

You see how Leaf guard can be used as a great defensive ability. Honestly, we have the perfect oppurtunity to make a Pokemon that can change the metagame. With these two abilities, even with a shallow movepool, Woodman would be such a popular and even more viable pokemon than before. As a competitive community we should be as creative as possible, and this allows us to.

 

[jagged_angel]

Ok, you've all persuaded me.

I want to change my vote from Greenhouse to Chlorophyll.

My vote is now:
Chlorophyll
Leaf Guard

I am still not convinced that Woodman would be Uber or unbalance the metagame with Greenhouse. But CAP is supposed to be Fun and not about half the creative team going on a massive rant.

In the spirit of teamwork I propose leaving all further discussion of Weather Effects to the appropriate thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39843

I will be totally gutted if this thing gets No Sun+ Abilities because just by nature of its typing it is begging for one.

DJD makes a good point that Sunny Day is the only change of weather that is never seen in OU.

We need to Ensure that Sunny Day will get a moveslot in at least half the movesets for Woodman, if we're not gonna give it autosun.

 

[Mekkah]

Also, I dont understand Rock Head at all.

It's one of these abilities that gets a lot of votes from what I see, so I voted as to have a shot at stopping Green House. I think physical sets are kind of a waste on Woodman, especially taking into account that Hippowdon can actually wall it to a huge extent if you go physical.

Battle Armor pleases the folks that always whine about luck. I'm not one of them (in fact, I hate people who pretend they're always getting luckfucked), but this gives them an excuse to actually prevent those CHs instead of whining that they don't want to use Armaldo or Cloyster.

I don't know what people think of anyone other than the TL posting tallied votes so I'll hold off from doing that now.

 

[Deck Knight]

It's one of these abilities that gets a lot of votes from what I see, so I voted as to have a shot at stopping Green House. I think physical sets are kind of a waste on Woodman, especially taking into account that Hippowdon can actually wall it to a huge extent if you go physical.

Battle Armor pleases the folks that always whine about luck. I'm not one of them (in fact, I hate people who pretend they're always getting luckfucked), but this gives them an excuse to actually prevent those CHs instead of whining that they don't want to use Armaldo or Cloyster.

What pissed me off about the so-called Physical set was Head Smash.

Aki must be an idiot if he thinks the functional equivalent of a flinch-proof Focus Punch isn't going to randomly be put on a special set for the express purpose of raping fire types. Even if it gets Rock Head, Head Smash is out of the question. No Rock moves or Ground moves on this.