Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[Bold School]

Great news. It's nice to see a ban in DLC 2 besides Arch. Volc in particular was way too much cheese and matchup flipping. Not dealing with it will make things much easier on the builder. It was very necessary to see it go.

I mean I'm glad Volc went, but I feel like the tera problem will be unavoidable at a certain point, since i common thread amongst all the brokens and potential brokens not named waterpon or Kyurem on Finch's graph is almost all due to tera, I think tera is actively making the meta less fun to play, amd is the reason why I don't engage because the tier isn't fun and is not fun to build teams for at all, not banning tera is easily the biggest tiering mistake of this entire gen, and I think we as a community need to take accountability for that.

As someone who has also been anti-Tera, I don't really think this is the time to harp on it. I also believe the Volc ban would be more likely to result in action on Tera than if it hadn't happened. Off the top of my head, you can now point to at least Regieleki, Espathra, and Volcarona that were banned in part because of Tera Blast specifically. Ogerpon has one form banned and another heavily on the radar, both of which probably wouldn't be needed without Tera. There has been a lot of stuff that was broken regardless, but now pretty much everything that is left is a borderline threat. A potential case is forming that an increasing percentage of these bans are/will be because Tera pushed them over the top.

 

[weirdo faye]

I'm surprised people voted out Volc, thought it was gonna be a lot more contentious


At this point though, when we ban everything like what are we left with?






I don't even play SV anymore but I'm still an onlooker who pays close attention to the tier.




I'm just gonna keep engaging with oldgens and discuss the current metagame and not play it unless tera gets out, because I know deep down the meta would be better with it gone and it's upsetting that players keep ignoring it despite being responsible for a large portion of the OU tier's issues at its core.

ok cool thanks for sharing and were banning ur 4head next

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

tfw no philisophical discussion

im not mad though. I've been using volc always since suspect and shit goes hard. If we ban tera blast in the future i want her back though.

Guessing Gliscor goes next.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Great news. It's nice to see a ban in DLC 2 besides Arch. Volc in particular was way too much cheese and matchup flipping. Not dealing with it will make things much easier on the builder. It was very necessary to see it go.



As someone who has also been anti-Tera, I don't really think this is the time to harp on it. I also believe the Volc ban would be more likely to result in action on Tera than if it hadn't happened. Off the top of my head, you can now point to at least Regieleki, Espathra, and Volcarona that were banned in part because of Tera Blast specifically. Ogerpon has one form banned and another heavily on the radar, both of which probably wouldn't be needed without Tera. There has been a lot of stuff that was broken regardless, but now pretty much everything that is left is a borderline threat. A potential case is forming that an increasing percentage of these bans are/will be because Tera pushed them over the top.

Yes and that has been one thing I have been saying, but let's just focus on a Waterpon or a 2nd Kyurem suspect since their brokenness ties to other stuff.

ok cool thanks for sharing and were banning ur 4head next

Done with the philosophical stuff now so no need

 

[Magcargo]

Unfortunate but a necessary result. Hopefully something is done about Primarina next. This mon is 6-0ing every team.

 

[Kallum]

I was having a pretty tiring and busy day but then I heard Volc got banned so my day is good!

Thanks guys (now plz dont ban kyurem next i like him - your local 1280 elo player)

 

[Mijzelffan]

Hopefully kyurem is next

It's barely been three months since the last kyurem suspect has been concluded, I don't know if smogon has actual policy for this but it seems like a bit of a slap in the face of anyone who took the time to get reqs and voted no ban to have that invalidated already. Maybe if the majority of the no ban voters from back then turn out to have changed their mind on a tiering survey it could be considered.

 

[Eeveeto]

It's barely been three months since the last kyurem suspect has been concluded, I don't know if smogon has actual policy for this but it seems like a bit of a slap in the face of anyone who took the time to get reqs and voted no ban to have that invalidated already. Maybe if the majority of the no ban voters from back then turn out to have changed their mind on a tiering survey it could be considered.

If the playerbase feels Kyurem is the most broken thing of OU, this is not a very good argument. I myself think Kyurem is not broken at all though and would Suspect Waterpon (having several other Mon in the list before Kyurem as well).

 

[Finchinator]

I think we should take a moment to let things soak in and reassess once everything settles. We do not need another suspect up tomorrow, but obviously the story of SV OU is very much still in-the-making.

 

[zioziotrip]

ban wellspring now tho finch ?

 

[Finchinator]

ban wellspring now tho finch ?

maybe

 

[awyp]

Personally, the only thing I think stands out outside the usual suspects Gholdengo / Kingambit (which shouldn't be looked at now) is Roaring Moon. It's very easy to plug and play, Knock + Acro + DD and 4th move is the most common set, you know its coming but there's not much you can do about it. And I still believe it's tera is very much underexplored and people always Tera-Flying. I personally think Roaring Moon feels to be a much needed evil sometime but I feel like if there's anything on the cutting board it's Roaring Moon.

I personally think we shouldn't have a suspect test in the next 30 days, I want people to actually unravel and enjoy the meta as is so they understand there are still things running around loose that personify uncompetitiveness.

 

[zioziotrip]

roaring moon is literally bad bruh sweeping w that shit is impossible w the 5 million speed control options+prio+helmet+barb that u have to get through with any prospective tera typing/set it doesnt have nearly enough moveslots to have any one set that is ultra consistent at doing anything more than forcing one kill

ban wellspring. it runs cudgel leech/pwhip pr sd and kills everything barring unviable grasses that have no place on a serious team outside of checking wellspring

 

[Moyashi]

roaring moon is literally bad bruh sweeping w that shit is impossible w the 5 million speed control options+prio+helmet+barb that u have to get through with any prospective tera typing/set it doesnt have nearly enough moveslots to have any one set that is ultra consistent at doing anything more than forcing one kill

Banworthy? No. Bad? Yeah that's a take alright. Million speed control? It's literally just scarf Meow (which is shit) that is faster and priority. Yes, it's containable with hazard+chip+other unique options like Barb, but don't exaggerate or make silly claims.

 

[GummyRowlets]

Unfortunate but a necessary result. Hopefully something is done about Primarina next. This mon is 6-0ing every team.

Prim? I can see why honestly. The dam pokemon typing is god-like and it stabs hit the whole meta-game for at least neutral and it bulks means it will always trade 1 for 1 or more, and pray to god it doesn't tera steel or else you're really screwed. I think it speed does hold it back and being susceptible to encore and faster mon is bad, but I'm not against discussions of prim

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

i've finally done it. i've cracked the da finchy code

I think we should take a moment to let things soak in

"soak", as in the move that turns you into a pure water-type. you know, like how waterpon turns herself into a pure water-type. so the next suspect will be waterpon

and reassess once everything settles.

if you take away the most commonly occurring letters of the alphabet (r s t l n e) from this phrase, it becomes "adaocvyhig", which is an anagram for "ivy chad a go", meaning that once waterpon goes they're going to decide to ban ivy cudgel instead and free the two banned ogerpons

We do not need another suspect up tomorrow,

an obvious reference to when the kyurem suspect ended and the archaludon suspect went up the next day, so you'd think this is clearly laying the groundwork for a second kyurem suspect, if you were a naïve fool who didn't think to look below the surface. in fact, this is actually a reference to their plan to retest gouging fire. think about it: gouging fire was the 11th suspect in sv ou, and kyurem was the 11th suspect last gen. the numbers don't lie

but obviously the story of SV OU

the story of sv. now, what mon is prominently featured in the story of sv? mabosstiff. mabosstiff is a physically offensive dark-type that thrives on predictions. and who else is a physically offensive dark-type that thrives on predictions, that's also extremely centralizing and the most used mon in the tier thanks largely to its incredibly powerful ability and setup potential? that's right, tyranitar in gen 3. so the next course of action will be a policy review regarding whether or not we should mod pursuit back into the game

is very much still in-the-making.

and here's the final puzzle piece. this could only possibly be a reference to phione, which obviously hatched before it fully developed into a manaphy and is therefore very much still in-the-making. i'm glad the council has plans to get all of these dangerous threats out of the tier

 

[PastaMechKaku]

I'm so proud of Primarina for going from a UU mon with some niche in OU during past gens to an Overused powerhouse. While it is very strong thanks to its great typing + high special stats, most of its sets make it vulnerable to hazards and its combination of low speed + middling physical bulk + lack of reliable recovery give it a fair amount of counter-play so it can't face-roll your team with ease unless said team is really weak to Prima. Very good, great glue 'mon, but not ban-worthy.

 

[Heatranator]

Volcarona is banned: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-round-12-voting.3742100/page-6#post-10090923

Doomers begone.

Honestly, I am happy about this since there is not going to be hysterical posts that "SV OU is doomed".

WOOOOOOOOOOO

This was well-deserved. Imagine being so broken that Storm Zone thinks you should go. (I.e the guy who defended Archaludon and Chien-Pao in the past)

I believe this is the step in the right direction regardless of what you think is the more broken mon.

Winners
View attachment 628442
Enam and Val are the obvious ones, being checked by Volc. Volcarona getting deported also means they can be slot in more often on HO (not that Val needed help or anything.

Grassy Glide stonks go up, plus Heatran or G-Fire can be run in place of Volc as the bulky Ghold check.

Ghold was already great in the metagame, but Volc was a near hard counter to Ghold. With it gone, Ghold is most likely to get better. Can’t say its a good or bad thing rn.

Kyurem is another great mon, especially with Balance teams being incredible rn. Though Volc was a fake check (Specs Draco trucks it and Kyu techs Rock Slide), it still appreciates not having it in the tier as it makes clicking Ice Beam and Freeze Dry easier. It won’t be broken though.

Crown and also Scizor are underrated mons that benefit from the Volc ban. Plus they both check Kyurem which will be in higher demand.

Losers

Tbh, I don’t think there are any actual losers of the ban. Those that “lost” either don’t mind the ban like Stall or was already going downhill like Skeledirge. The mons that were cited as Volc checks like Glowking, Prima, Dnite and Ting-Lu actually improve. Remember that these mons also check other shit, so without Volc chipping them down or killing them with Tera, they have more breathing room to fulfill their roles.

With Volc gone, is there anything I consider broken? Nothing atm, though I will keep an eye on SD View attachment 628455.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2111729756?p2

This is a mid ladder replay, but here Gliscor gets every kill and survives a Tera Ghost Hex cause of the SpD investment, and proceeding to heal up back to full since Pinkacross’ ToTw has several free entries for Gliscor. Even with the Skarmory, the team eventually falls to the Tera Normal SD Facade. The replay also demonstrates why Skarmory sucks.

Something about Gliscor shredding through even well-built teams like that seems off, but we’ll see in a couple weeks.

Nah, Gliscor ain't broken. SD always has coverage issues, such as being walled always by the metal birds, having to get multiple boosts to hurt tusk and being hard walled by ghold if it chooses facade.

 

[Finchinator]

Realistically we are at a point where we just had the first ban in months and it’s been less than 12 hours. Calls for other bans or suspects just don’t make much sense. There will be a time for them for sure, but it probably won’t be today or tomorrow — just think we need to let shit settle.

I’m absolutely in favor of an eventual discussion on Wellspring or whatever else people view as problems regardless of my personal stance. Discussion is good and who knows where it can lead. Above all, I appreciate the many strong and experienced players who voiced their opinions to me. It’s not being ignored, but we need to be cognizant of the metagame’s context.

 

[Magcargo]

Call it a hunch but I think Scizor will be good in this new meta. Volc is gone, the legendary birds are still weaker than ever, and dirge + tera fire mons will see less usage. In Volc's absence, we will see more fairy and Grass-types, which scizor profits off of. We'll probably see more Darkspam teams too, which scizor does well vs. It's defensive profile pairs well with many top tiers like Tusk and Dragapult & Bullet punch is more useful than ever to revenge kill the many fast mons like Deo-S, Valiant, Pult, and Roaring Moon. IMO that offensive SD set probably isn't gonna be viable because of how much recoil it's inflicting on itself + no longevity, but I think CB will find a place on more standard teams than in the previous meta, esp given how nice priority is in this meta.

 

[tommytt22]

I'm not really a high ladder player I usually sit in the 1600s to 1700s and I feel like sentiment is so different between mid ladder and high ladder players (the ones who get reqs) I really never struggled with volcarona or found it constricting. Top threat for sure but in the same way gambit or roaring moon is a top threat. I don't care that it's gone but I'm VERY surprised.

Call it a hunch but I think Scizor will be good in this new meta. Volc is gone, the legendary birds are still weaker than ever, and dirge + tera fire mons will see less usage. In Volc's absence, we will see more fairy and Grass-types, which scizor profits off of. We'll probably see more Darkspam teams too, which scizor does well vs. It's defensive profile pairs well with many top tiers like Tusk and Dragapult & Bullet punch is more useful than ever to revenge kill the many fast mons like Deo-S, Valiant, Pult, and Roaring Moon. IMO that offensive SD set probably isn't gonna be viable because of how much recoil it's inflicting on itself + no longevity, but I think CB will find a place on more standard teams than in the previous meta, esp given how nice priority is in this meta.

About a month ago I posted a core I was using got me to about 1800 rocky helmet physdef chomp, expert belt magnezone and CB scizor it was farming the meta pretty hard, it'll be even better now.

 

[Soiramio3000]

I hope the next ban vote will NOT be about tera as a whole.

Anything but that.

 

[Finchinator]

I hope the next ban vote will NOT be about tera as a whole.

Anything but that.

It won’t be.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

your posts appear innocuous, mr. inator, but your secret messages can't escape from the brilliant mind of daddybuzzwole. welcome to the da finchy code 2: finch harder

Realistically

this is obviously a reference to the council's plan to ban the most realistic pokemon, alomomola

we are at a point

point, like poison point? exactly. the next ban after alomomomomomola will obviously be famed poison point user clodsire

where we just had the first ban in months and it’s been less than 12 hours

you know what's named after a month and lives for less than 12 hours? a mayfly. clearly a reference to a third kingambit suspect after the second one i talked about before. how so? because it may be a flying-type

Calls for other bans or suspects just don’t make much sense.

sense. as in cents. as in coins. which means that gholdengo is next on the docket

There will be a time for them for sure, but it probably won’t be today or tomorrow

if it "won't be today or tomorrow", that means the next suspect after ghold won't be a mon from the present or the future, so it must be one of the past paradoxes. and who's the past paradox mon that everyone's had on their radar since the beginning of the dlc? that's right, brute bonnet

just think we need to let shit settle.

settle, like how you live among settlers in the hisui region in pokemon legends arceus. combined with the previous statement being about time, it obviously means the next suspect after brute bonnet will be testing down dialga-origin and

ah fuck it, this joke is already getting stale, i better quit while i'm ahead

 

[Heatranator]

ah fuck it, this joke is already getting stale, i better quit while i'm ahead

You say that like you didn't buy it stale /jk

But while dirge is going to fall off, I still think it could be pretty good in the meta, now it can invest in defense easier, which is probably the better set. I am interested in roar, sub and encore skeledirge (not in the same set though). Roar skele is a good phazer which has reliable recovery, sub skele could capitalise on switches it forces in order to start boosting and encore skele is probably the most niche of them, but does lock things into awkward situations if they are slow such as Garg, gambit and primarina. These are mons which usually beat it that now don't, due to it ignoring there boosts.