Gen 3 Yamato

[teal6]

Hi all,

Since I've been active over the last year or so, a bunch of people have noticed that my registration date doesn't really jive with what I play or am known for. Truth be told, I joined Smogon back actually in like 2006, played for a little while on that classic simulator NetBattle, and then quit for most of a decade.

However, when I did play, I recall the main generation being ADV, and I loved it. I still remember, however vague, predicting a switch for the first time and attacking with a coverage move, it's sort of notable doing that when you hadn't fully developed critical thinking capabilities by that point. Since I've come back, though, I've found that I am actually straight trash at ADV (and most older gens) despite enjoying playing them a lot. I usually have used super standard teams aped from replays when I've played lately, but I tried to build a team on my own for my own use.

So, I guess this is like a note, it's not an RMT from some well established player with notable ability, I actually am really looking for help on this team and would like to make it better.

Team Building Process

I named this team after the famous warship Yamato, thinking that it'd be cool to use a powerful sounding underwater creature. Knowing I wanted to build around one of my favorite mons, Swampert, I looked for a set that would be both slightly different than normal but still hopefully viable.

In thinking of things that have strong grass coverage, I was most concerned with Celebi and Giga Drain Gengar. With Swampert being pretty slow, it'd be nice to add speed to the team so I'm not constantly on the back foot, basically asking to receive unfortunate luck. Something that could scare out both of these, while still hitting HP Grass Tyranitar was Aerodactly. Additionally, decent type synergy between them made Aero seem a logical choice.

Considering I wanted Pert to be the centerpiece of the team, I really didn't want it constantly switching in on spikes should I let them go up. Swampert and Aero cover fire types well enough (as well as them not being super common to begin with) so I added Forretress to compress spinning as well as hazard laying of my own.

I wanted a different "speed" of setup sweeper, something that with a free turn could become difficult to handle. Additionally, I wanted something that scared out Celebi with a free turn, so I went with Tyranitar, who is also just generally one of the best mons in the tier.

With sand + hazards, I thought it'd be a good idea to add a spinblocker to keep my momentum with timely predicts as well as make sure repeated switches bring things into Aero or +1 Tyranitar range. Gengar is a thorn in the side of many teams, and can help spread status, bringing stuff to that nice 2/3rds health range where setup sweepers can really take advantage of.

Finally, I realized I was getting straight bossed by water types at this point. Cleric Celebi gives me a bit of counterplay there, as well as a generally annoying mon to pivot in and out of. Additionally, Celebi and Gengar give me solid fighting and ground switchins to help Tyranitar pick a good time to setup.

Set Explanation

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 68 SpA / 188 SpD
Sassy Nature
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Rest

Curse Swampert seemed like a really fun mon to use, considering it's not seen super often anymore. I went with a SpDef set to live various HP Grasses (think Jolteon) and KO back if necessary. Swampert has enough SpA to OHKO Salamence after a turn of sand damage, just a small benchmark I thought I'd hit so I don't have to deal with taking two HP Flyings or whatever, and also does moderate damage to Celebi's on the switch, hopefully forcing a Recover as I switch out.

Aerodactyl @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake

Standard CB Aero, explanation for why I thought I'd use it above. Move choices are obvious enough for anyone remotely familiar with the tier, didn't go Adamant because I don't really feel like losing speed ties to scary things.

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Earthquake

Standard Forry, used to keep hazards off my field and on the opponents. Honestly, I haven't found a huge amount of times I've actually clicked HP Bug - is it really necessary? Went with EQ over boom so I can beat Magneton 1v1, as I don't want to eat Toxics or HP Grasses with Swampert.

Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 16 HP / 192 Atk / 120 Def / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Bug]

Dragon Dance Tyranitar as elaborated on above, went with HP Bug coverage to ensure I can beat Celebis. The DD set hits some pretty important benchmarks with the EVs, so I didn't change much aside from a few more Speed EVs in order to beat that very same dex set. In a tournament setting I would likely throw on even more EVs just to creep - but at what point does going Jolly become beneficial? This is something I'm not sure how to tell, I think I have enough ways to beat Gengar but Dugtrio is a bit more problematic, so maybe it is appropriate here?

Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 172 HP / 148 SpA / 188 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch
- Giga Drain
- Hypnosis

Again, EVs hit some pretty neat things already, though I could realistically drop some HP (lives a Metagross Meteor Mash) considering I have Forretress and Swampert as defensive switch ins. For now, I'll leave it unless suggested otherwise. Three attacks and Hypnosis seems to work best, but WoW is definitely an option over Giga Drain, I figured. Also offers me some Skarmory counterplay, which the team sort of struggles with otherwise.

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
- Psychic
- Leech Seed
- Heal Bell
- Recover

Gives me another ground switchin, can wake resting Swampert up, Leech Seed lets me setup on more targets if they stay in for a turn. Celebi is also my main answer to water types, but sometimes they still get out of control especially CM Cune. Though Celebi is bulky enough to take the occasional Ice Beam, I do think I probably need better anti-water gameplan, as having to pivot from Forretress to Celebi on Beam -> Surf/Pump gets kind of miserable.

Conclusion
So basically I think I have a fundamental idea here, but in practice it's been underwhelming. While I've certainly just been outplayed my fair share, I know a good amount of skill can be made up for with creative and solid teambuilding. If I am looking to do well in ADV competition moving forward, I'll need better teams, and being able to build myself will help me a lot more in that.

I am currently finding myself struggling a good deal against CM Sweepers and general stall + phazing. If anyone could offer ideas, please let me know and I'd be glad to implement them.

Thanks

 

[BKC]

Hello teal666, your problems include:

1) Spikes teams with Gengar. You have no way of punishing them for switching Gar in to block Forretress' Rapid Spin.
2) Physical attackers. Your lack of Defense on Swampert leaves you open to Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Salamence and Aerodactyl.
3) Offensive CM Suicune. It will easily rip a huge chunk out of your team, and can potentially sweep you.

There are a few ways you can address the first issue. The most obvious is changing Tyranitar to a Pursuit variant. This would also benefit a potential Aerodactyl sweep, since Gengar removal means Double-Edge and Earthquake become more dangerous. Another route you can take is HP Ghost on Forretress, which is more unexpected. It still does decent enough damage to annoy bulky Starmie. The last option is to use Skarmory over Forretress. While this doesn't do anything to hit Gengar, you can Whirlwind the often telegraphed switch to it to rack up more Spikes damage on the rest of their team, while giving yourself a phazer, another Spikes immune and a decent stallbreaker with Speed EVs and Taunt, which can be your anti-Spikes.

If you go with one of the latter two suggestions and want to try some different Tyranitar sets, Choice Band and Rock Slide / Earthquake / HP Bug / Roar @ Leftovers (Adamant max HP max Attack) both work incredibly well with Spikes. Both work with Skarmory but I'd recommend Roar alongside HP Ghost Forretress so you have at least one phazing move. Of course, there's nothing wrong with Dragon Dance.

If you don't find yourself using HP Flying with Aerodactyl very often, consider HP Bug. The harder hits on Celebi, Starmie and Claydol are very notable, and having another move to hit Tyranitar with is good.

The second issue is easy to fix: load Swampert full of Defense EVs with a Relaxed nature. You can keep some SpDef for a scenario such as this:
252+ SpA Zapdos Hidden Power Grass vs. 240 HP / 44 SpD Swampert: 340-400 (84.7 - 99.7%)
However, Swampert needs Defense to do its job or an onslaught of Dragon Dancers is going to overwhelm you very easily. Even Aerodactyl and CB Metagross can power through you themselves without much trouble. To back it up, I'd consider giving Gengar the 248 HP / 44 Defense necessary to survive a +1 Salamence HP Flying (92 for surviving sand afterwards); with Spikes, sand and Hypnosis, it doesn't need all the Special Attack EVs it has now. I'd also consider giving Swampert Protect, since Leftovers recovery adds up really quickly and RestBell isn't always going to work. It can also guard against Explosion. Protect + Curse is legit, so no worries there; Curse has always been and always will be the move Pert can use if there's an opening for it, but its job first and foremost is staving off physical attackers. This change is optional of course, but if you do use it then you can try other moves over Heal Bell on Celebi such as Reflect, HP Grass, Substitute or Calm Mind.

Speaking of Celebi, for the third issue I would bump its Speed up to 270. This allows you to outrun Suicune (and Heracross!). It's not a perfect fix by any means, but it's something. Some Special Defense EVs would work nicely, they'd also help with Gengar's Ice Punch and HP Ice from Electrics.

Viva Satan

 

[teal6]

This is great, thanks a lot BKC, I really appreciate the help. I've implemented those changes, and I've yet to have a chance for some test battles, but the following is the import and I can actually see how I would perform better against things I was struggling with a bit before.

If anyone has any spread tweaks too, please let me know, and I'd be glad to change them!

Hide

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 144 Def / 68 SpA / 44 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Curse
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Protect

Aerodactyl @ Choice Band
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Hidden Power [Flying]
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake

Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Hidden Power [Bug]

Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 28 SpA / 188 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch
- Giga Drain
- Hypnosis

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 48 SpD / 136 Spe
Bold Nature
- Psychic
- Leech Seed
- Calm Mind
- Recover

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Taunt
- Spikes
- Whirlwind

 

[PumpedAaron]

I'm not exactly an expert on this tier either, but if you could somehow fit Machamp onto your team, you'd have a Psy-Dark-Fight type core, a decisive answer to Blissey and Lax and some more offensive type coverage! You could even run Bulk Up to try a physical win condition along with Celebi's calm mind,depending on what your opponent is weaker against. It seems that Swampert works at doing a job similar to Machamp, though, but its definitely a fair option if you like it.

 

[eden]

Yo teal6!

I just wanna help tweak some stuff; I wanna repeat that physically defensive Swampert is probably the best course of action(also extremely helpful considering how it gives you a decent switch in for Tyranitar/Aerodactyl/Metagross and a host of other metagame threats). You should probably just look to run the standard defensive Swampert, because your team is extremely reliant on it, Of course using Swampert, makes the mixed versions of the above threats much harder to deal with, but hopefully the other changes I suggest can fix that.

Using Forretress is good role compression, and gives you a way to spin which admittedly looks very tough for your team considering how much of the team can be Spiked on easily; I'd say being able to force spin versus a Spikes orientated stall is really important. So there are two things that can help, you can run Lum Berry Special Tyranitar with like Fire Blast or Roar/Crunch/Pursuit/HP:Grass; or you can run HP:Ghost>HP:Bug, on Forretress. I personally think Special Tar helps the team offensively by possibly letting you bluff Band and opening up the way for Aerodactyl to push through the opponent. Pursuit Tyranitar also lets you force at least one trade probably, before Dugtrio comes in or anything.

I think Will-O-Wisp is really good here actually considering you don't want Swampert to become overburdened by having to check multiple DD'ers and/or things like CB Tar and Gross over the course of one game. There is actually an optimized EV spread for Gengar to help it take on +1 HP'Flying Mence/+1 HP:Flying Gyarados, and trade with them, allowing it to check them over the course of a game. This also has Explosion to help take out threats to your team in a pinch. This also helps you out with Heracross a bit.

more defensive Gengar set

Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 124 HP / 160 Atk / 116 Def / 12 SpA / 24 SpD / 72 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch
- Explosion
- Will-O-Wisp

I actually think this sort of build is heavily pressured by stuff like CB Gross or CB Aero/CB Tar + HP:Grass Mence/Tar/Gross and stuff, because you basically have only Swampert as your answer to a ton of stuff it is vulnerable to getting lured.

Heracross is one more thing that looks like it pressures you, and one thing that definitely works is opting to run CB Mence>CB Aero, but then that opens you up to a ton of scary things like Starmie and makes playing around Gengar even harder.

Also for what its worth I think the team has limited available plays against stuff like CM/Ice Beam Suicune, and limited ability to play around stuff like last mon CurseLax. Here with Spikes+Roar Special Tar+Gengar though you can probably keep CurseLax at bay easily. CM Ice Beam/Surf Cune is another matter though. Seeing how you struggle with opposing Suicune, running a CM/Roar or even a Surf/Ice Beam Suicune of your own with a tad of Speed creep is also an option, if you opt to run Swampert+Cune or something(this also means you don't just lose to Boom/something to lure Pert+Aero/Mence/Gross/Tar), then running it over Celebi is an option though Heracross becomes a tad more trouble/the offensive Electrics become extremely difficult to deal with.

Also want to say that off hand things like CM Rachi look very difficult for you to deal with; especially the more defensive CM/Wish variants(the offensive one is also difficult to deal with though). CM Spam is troublesome as well n_n.I'll update more with some tweaks/changes if any hit me!

EDIT: I see you've replaced Forretress in your build, probably for the best seeing as how it struggles to spin effectively. Also MixMence pressures this build a lot, as it does a lot of standardish tss builds.

 

[Jorgen]

No lie, the first version of this team is almost exactly what I used when I was (unsuccessfully) trying to pick up ADV. A few key differences were:

-Taunt-Dbond Gengar
-Explosion > Hidden Power on Forry
-ST Zapdos > Aero (it was before the mechanics were corrected so ST Zapper was actually good)
-More defensive Pert (I think I used the standard spread with Protect + Hydro Pump, and occasionally the ST set to better absorb status)
-Pursuit Ttar
-Calm Mind > Heal Bell on Celebi

I never really ran into any huge issues with CurseLax; Leech Seed from Celebi normally dealt with it just fine. What tended to be a huge problem was CM spam. So, essentially, the trio of offensive Celebi + Jirachi + Suicune. Raikou was also a pain as I had nothing faster than it. That sort of team just wears you down so freaking fast and you don't exactly have any solid counterplay against it (not without laying Spikes down anyway, but good luck getting Forry in safely). I was constantly looking for a way to get around this weakness - Taunt + Dbond Gengar, blowing up on something with Forry, using CM on Celebi to try to outlast shit like IB Cune, and trying out alternate sets/mons such as Psong Celebi and even using EQ CurseLax / CM Blissey in lieu of Ttar while using HP Ghost on Forretress. All of these "solutions" give up major concessions (Heal Bell is Celebi's natural "goodstuff" 4th move on a team like this imo; Dbond is not a reliable way to take out CMers at all, and using Taunt to try to make it a tad more reliable means giving up status; Forry without HP Bug struggles to keep Spikes up against Starmie or Claydol; replacing Ttar makes it way harder to punish spinblocking, especially if your opponent decides to bring back a blast from the past in Dusclops), and I was never really able to find a fix that I felt comfortable with. In the end I sort of gave up on this team and just started using hyper-offensive teams such as Physicals + Mag & a SuperCM spam variant of my own in an attempt to just throw my (generally better) opponents off guard.