Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

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Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
sry if this post seems rushed, but i want to reply to this. All of those pokemon florges 'walls' have ways around it. If gren is protean gunk shot it beats it and if it has rocks and 1 layer of spikes up it wins, sab can cripple it w/ knock, koko can volt switch and specs 2hkos after rocks, zam wins if its cm, blace 2hkos w/ specs fb and sub cm gets free setup, zyg can win w/ groundium (which is an actual set, albeit uncommon), cm keld wins after sr, pelipper 2hkos w/ specs hydro and synthesis is weakened by rain, rotom can volt switch, and tang can knock. It also baits in a ton of pokemon like heatran, and every steel in the tier really. Gives mons like volc, mage and cm blace free setup, and has 4mss, so u have to run synthesis for recovery to be able to fit more important moves like defog and heal bell. Those replays dont rly show much of worth bc theyre all around 1400-1500, which still is full of dumb low ladder shit and the players in the replays ,ade a few crucial misplays, for example, in the second replay, the player stayed in on koko w/ steela, their only florges answer, for no good reason. Florges also loses to common hazard setters like ferro, heatran, cm clef, excadrill, suicide lead gren, etc. so ye, dont rank florges.
Some quick things to address here.

-Specs Blacephalon does not 2HKO with Lefties intact: 252 SpA Choice Specs Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges: 160-189 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

-Specs Koko 2HKOing after Rocks is also false, it's a roll w/o lefties: 252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Florges in Electric Terrain: 142-168 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

-Protean Greninja wins with Gunk Shot, yes, but I never said it beat Protean: I said it beat Ash-Greninja.

-You yourself say Groundium Zygarde is uncommon. And yeah, it is uncommon. Like, <5% usage common on the top of the ladder no less. In lower levels, it doesn't even reach 3% usage. I don't think it's that much of a big deal.

-Tang and Sableye can Knock Off Florges, but they still lose 1v1.

Everything else you said is, admittedly, true. Florges' niche is a specially bulky defogger that isn't weak to Electric moves and doesn't fear Stealth Rock as much as Mantine. It's also one of the only hazard removers that can fit cleric support like Wish and Heal Bell into its moveset. It's a fairly specific niche, hence why I have nominated it for C.
 
Just as a couple of possible discussion points:


Kartana A --> A+

Meta conditions look favorable for Kartana. The massive influx of T-Tar, the addition of a great dark type move in Knock Off to Kartana's repertoire, and Blace as a possible good partner make all the difference for Kartana. Kartana can even revenge kill certain Blace forms with Knock Off, which is pretty neat. Knock Off basically means that the already small list of good switch ins to Kartana has been decreased further, as not having an item is pretty disadvantageous. Again, this is just a discussion point, not necessarily my view point on the matter, I just want to hear what others have to say

Tapu Lele A --> A-

The aforementioned influx of T-Tar makes things harder for Lele. Although T-Tar can't switch in unless if Lele is choice locked, it is a great revenger killer. This could force Lele to run Fightinium Z Sets, which carry less power and less speed then the Specs and Scarf sets respectively. Blace is also a problem, as it's a new mom which forces out Lele purely because of its typing and higher speed. Of course, Lele still has considerable power overall, and is a force to be reckoned with, but idk. Again, I just want to hear other's viewpoints.
 
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power

uh-oh, the game in trouble
Council seemed to be split on this on discord so I figured I'd post it to see what you guys think.

A -> A-

Protean Greninja is in a really rough spot. Scarf is a pure utility mon that hardly kills anything and is walled by over half the tier, and largely ends up spiking on a switch or uturning around a few times at best. Dual Hazards fits only only on HO, which is just struggling a lot lately. Life Orb / Expert Belt 3 atks + spikes is completely dead, and Z move spikes shows promise but the Z move is oh so valuable at the moment and this set has few results to back it up. 4 attacks is also certainly not A rank worthy.

But the important part is that Protean Greninja is not a metagame defining threat, and clings to the edges of the metagame. It is not a pokemon you think about while building the way other A rank mons like Tapu Lele, Mawile, Scizor, or Tapu Bulu are. It's a shell of its former self and is certainly the worst Pokemon in A. A pokemon should be ranked on the basis of its best set - while Protean Greninja does have several viable sets, none of them are good enough or defining enough to warrant the rank of A.
 
M-Lopunny possibly from A- to A

The Introduction of Blacephalon has discouraged the usage of some of a few pokemon it stuggles with. Such as Tapu Lele , Tapu Bulu and Celestella. It thrives in a meta where Tyranitar, Ferrothorn and Heatran are commonplace. It bears other offensive threats like non-choice scarf Kartana/ Protean Greninja and maybe Tapu Koko if it has Fake Out or taken SR damage.

Plus unlike its rival fighting Type Mega M-Medicham, it can also dispatch Blacephalon. Even Choice Scarf variants with Fake Out and previous SR damage.

It still has issues with defensive oriented teams and common walls such as Toxapex and M-Venusaur, but it has was to either disrupt them with Encore, or try break through them with PuP
 
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Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.

I fully support Protean Gren down. sedertz pretty much covered all there was to say. While it is decently versatile it's not actually all that splashable (with Scarf being just pretty bad in general, it only fits on teams that really need it, Dual Hazards only fitting on HO, and LO 3 Attacks just being garbage). I definitely find it quite the oddball in A.

I also have to fully support Blace up. Each of its sets are absolutely monstrous and take advantage of the meta quite well. Specs is honestly a pain to deal with and it's good for actually getting past TTar with that specs HP Ground. Scarf is just a nightmare for any offense team with a slower scarfer. I think that putting it in A- undersells its incredible power and versatility in roles all because of one match up it has that is easily covered by teammates and worn down. Basically Snowy was right. It's absolutely ridiculous imo that people are considering this being dropped.

Mew should pretty much drop as the defensive set isn't half as splashable as it used to be. Psychic is honestly not a very good typing right now with the influx of Tran, the popularity of TTar and Bug Buzz Volc. In addition there are other defoggers that can be used, it's not like Mew is the only decent one that fits outside of stall like how it was this summer.

I'm also gonna say that Gallade-Mega seriously needs to drop. Mew is dead and beating Mew was its only real niche. I'm not gonna take this lightly and I think it needs to drop to C because it's honestly that outclassed.

A- is disgustingly large lol. I already nommed Mew down but I also think that Weavile should be going down as it only really rose because of Naganadel and that got banned.

Also, IIRC Nihilego only rose to C+ because of TSpikes. That's not as effective as it was a while back due to the new defoggers. In the meanwhile we've seen more Tran and TTar and those two pretty much invalidate it. I say drop it to C or C-.

That's pretty much it since I can't really think of much else to say, the rankings look good for now!
I really need to stop with this site
 
I agree with M-Lopunny rise and agree with Nihilego drop, I mean if the meta is going to be around t-tar, and fighting types, theres no reason for Nihilego to stay at C+, its just going to get sandwiched between t-tar and other fighting types.
 
Council seemed to be split on this on discord so I figured I'd post it to see what you guys think.

A -> A-

Protean Greninja is in a really rough spot. Scarf is a pure utility mon that hardly kills anything and is walled by over half the tier, and largely ends up spiking on a switch or uturning around a few times at best. Dual Hazards fits only only on HO, which is just struggling a lot lately. Life Orb / Expert Belt 3 atks + spikes is completely dead, and Z move spikes shows promise but the Z move is oh so valuable at the moment and this set has few results to back it up. 4 attacks is also certainly not A rank worthy.

But the important part is that Protean Greninja is not a metagame defining threat, and clings to the edges of the metagame. It is not a pokemon you think about while building the way other A rank mons like Tapu Lele, Mawile, Scizor, or Tapu Bulu are. It's a shell of its former self and is certainly the worst Pokemon in A. A pokemon should be ranked on the basis of its best set - while Protean Greninja does have several viable sets, none of them are good enough or defining enough to warrant the rank of A.
Ah, I never thought I would see a day where Greninja-Protean is in a horrible spot. From hero to zero. I do think it's getting worse as the omnipresence of defog makes spikes sets worse than they usually are. You're right that 4 attacks is not that good anymore because it has real counters now (Magearna, Celesteela, Toxapex if Greninja doesn't have Extrasensory). Scarf also is useful primarily against setup sweepers like Volcarona and not much else. Greninja suffers from severe 4 moveslot syndrome and unlike in ORAS or even in early SM, gets walled by top-tier pokemon and fails to impress.

Fully support your nomination. I also want to see the arguments for keeping Greninja protean at A so I can have a better understanding of its situation.
 
Lele is still quite devastating despite the presence of ttar/blace/defensive tran simply because the types of mons that check lele have common and reliable switch ins themselves. Lele does not necessarily feel hindered by these threats, because the OU metagame continues to harbor various ground and fighting types that easily check/counter these mons and are easy to fit on a team. I disagree with a drop. To me it feels like dropping lele would feel like theorymonning. The game isn’t played in a vacuum - lele still has plenty of opportunities and still performs the role it always has.
 
I agree. Lele is Imo still better than most Mons in A- and definitely better than the A- ranked Mons that share its role. Special Wallbreakers and Choice users.

It is certainly stronger than Latios because Lele's Psychic/Psyshock come in with a boost. It can more reliably switch in because of the Fairy typing resisting Dark (neutral) and Psychic Terrain prevents priority meaning it won't have to fear Revenge killing through Priority (Sucker Punch) for as long as the Terrain is up. It can also run Scarf or Specs which M Diance can't and while M Diance has higher base SpA and Spe, Tapu Lele still packs a stronger STAB Psychic/Psyshock with the terrain. It also has an edge over Keldeo where Lele's STABs are a lot easier to hit Mons neutrally whereas Keldeo struggles a little here (Toxapex being so popular and it walls Keldeo completely even with HP Electric) and Lele also having stronger coverage (Lele has Thunderbolt). Meaning a lot less can wall Tapu Lele whereas there are more things that Keldeo just can't do anything to with it's more common set (Scarf). Not to mention Lele's Terrain is so important in it's ability to check Ash-Gren. With Scarf it will always outspeed and OHKO Ash-Gren with Moonblast whereas Keldeo if it was chipped can and will lose to Water Shuriken if it is ever under 30% HP. Lele also offers itself as a good check to M Scizor (Bullet Punch fizzles) and it takes a ton from HP Fire (between 76.9%-90.9%) and dies if it switches in (takes 32.3%-38.1% from Psychic and 22.7-26.8% from Moonblast) and stays in to U-Turn vs HP Fire so unless Scizor is 252 into SpD it will die switching in to Psychic and follow up with an HP Fire.

I myself think Blacephalon should go to A so I won't discuss Blacephalon vs Lele as I see them in the same level of powerfull Special Wallbreakers along the level of Volcarona.

Lele's speed is an issue, and it's weakness to Vest Ttar is known but Vest Ttar usage is not going to be as high as it was when Naganadel was running around still in the tier and it's ability letting it set up anti-priority means it is harder to revenge kill and protects itself from things like Quick Attack from M Lopunny and M Pinsir or Water Shuriken from Ash Gren which lets Lele safely force them out or revenge kill them. Not to mention Lele can still hurt Vest Ttar if Lele isn't choice locked with Focus Blast.

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs 252 HP / 220+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 338-400 (83.6 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Tapu Lele Focus Blast vs 252 HP / 220+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 260-308 (64.3 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In conclusion Lele should stay in A. Even if Assault Vest Tyranitar makes a splash again the amount of things Lele does over the other A- Special Wallbreakers and Choice users makes Lele more viable and overall a better Pokemon than them.
 


Roserade (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes / Toxic Spikes
- Giga Drain / Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis

Something that I found interesting myself, I've personally used roserade in ou and I honestly think it's viable. Some things that roserade can offer to a team would be...
  • Absorbs toxic spikes from toxapex.
  • Status absorber due to natural cure.
  • Provides spikes / toxic spikes for a team.
Roserade has chances to come in on quite a decent amount of pokemon in ou too and it has quite a high spatk stat so it's not passive without investment, some of which would be...
  • Tapu koko
  • Pre transformation ash greninja
  • Zapdos
  • Ferrothorn lacking gyro ball
  • Non z move variants of tapu bulu
  • Toxapex
  • Chansey
  • Mew
  • Clefable
  • Magnezone
  • Tapu fini
  • Tangrowth
  • Keldeo
  • Av magearna / non cm shift gear magearna
I'll provide some sample calcs, if anyone is interested they can calc the rest. :P






It does come with downsides though such as a weakness to blacephalon, which needs to be played around carefully if the team doesn't have a tyranitar as well. All in all, I'm not sure if roserade actually deserves a spot on vr, but I do think it can work out reasonably well on the right team in ou.
 


Roserade (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes / Toxic Spikes
- Giga Drain / Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis

Something that I found interesting myself, I've personally used roserade in ou and I honestly think it's viable. Some things that roserade can offer to a team would be...
  • Absorbs toxic spikes from toxapex.
  • Status absorber due to natural cure.
  • Provides spikes / toxic spikes for a team.
Roserade has chances to come in on quite a decent amount of pokemon in ou too and it has quite a high spatk stat so it's not passive without investment, some of which would be...
  • Tapu koko
  • Pre transformation ash greninja
  • Zapdos
  • Ferrothorn lacking gyro ball
  • Non z move variants of tapu bulu
  • Toxapex
  • Chansey
  • Mew
  • Clefable
  • Magnezone
  • Tapu fini
  • Tangrowth
  • Keldeo
  • Av magearna / non cm shift gear magearna
I'll provide some sample calcs, if anyone is interested they can calc the rest. :P






It does come with downsides though such as a weakness to blacephalon, which needs to be played around carefully if the team doesn't have a tyranitar as well. All in all, I'm not sure if roserade actually deserves a spot on vr, but I do think it can work out reasonably well on the right team in ou.
I've never used roserade before, so I can't comment on how it works in practice (especially since you didn't post any replays like you should've). However, is this the meta where Roserade deserves a place on the vr? Blacephalon's a big threat, spike spam is weakened by the influx of defoggers and all the things you listed, mega venusaur beats even harder without being a complete stick on the physical side. Except chansey. But chansey beats roserade 1v1 anyway, so w/e.

Oh, and for future reference. It's probably easier to post the relevant calc itself rather than a screenshot.
 


Roserade (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes / Toxic Spikes
- Giga Drain / Hidden Power [Fire]
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis

Something that I found interesting myself, I've personally used roserade in ou and I honestly think it's viable. Some things that roserade can offer to a team would be...
  • Absorbs toxic spikes from toxapex.
  • Status absorber due to natural cure.
  • Provides spikes / toxic spikes for a team.
Roserade has chances to come in on quite a decent amount of pokemon in ou too and it has quite a high spatk stat so it's not passive without investment, some of which would be...
  • Tapu koko
  • Pre transformation ash greninja
  • Zapdos
  • Ferrothorn lacking gyro ball
  • Non z move variants of tapu bulu
  • Toxapex
  • Chansey
  • Mew
  • Clefable
  • Magnezone
  • Tapu fini
  • Tangrowth
  • Keldeo
  • Av magearna / non cm shift gear magearna
I'll provide some sample calcs, if anyone is interested they can calc the rest. :P






It does come with downsides though such as a weakness to blacephalon, which needs to be played around carefully if the team doesn't have a tyranitar as well. All in all, I'm not sure if roserade actually deserves a spot on vr, but I do think it can work out reasonably well on the right team in ou.


I'm gonna have to disagree with you here. Roserade is really frail physically, nothing too amazing specially, and is a pretty terrible defensive mon anyways due to lack of reliable recovery. When you compare Roserade to defensive poison types viable in OU (Toxapex, Venusaur, Amoonguss) it is pretty terrible - they are all significantly bulkier, two have regenerator, and one has thick fat and is really hard to kill in general. The only niche I really see this mon having is spikes, but I think it's a bit ridiculous to justify using Roserade just for that. First off, your list is kind of flawed. It's not an amazing Koko check because of physical sets and because it is super susceptible to getting worn down by U-turn volt switch, as it is ridiculously vulnerable to spikes as well (and doesn't have regenerator like Tangrowth or Amoonguss). If Roserade is your Ash-Greninja check, you're gonna lose to Ash Greninja a lot - it forces you to Synthesis every time you come in to "check" it, it gets creamed by ice beam, and it's easy to get flinched or crit and killed. A lot of the mons on your list are defensive, and it doesn't actually handle them as much as not lose to them.. like listing Roserade as a Chansey check doesn't make much sense. I don't really want to keep elaborating but I really don't think Roserade is viable..

Mega Latios is actually really nice right now, I know it rose recently but if you look at this list a lot of the mons in B are pretty medicore. I would say it should move up, but frankly I think a few mons from B should move up. Excadrill, Hawlucha, and maybe some others like Kingdra and Suicune are definitely better than Alomomola and Latias. M-Latios has just been a great mon recently. I actually started running it with HP fire over roost because people are aware of Mega EQ at this point, but think their Ferrothorn/Scizor are super safe against it.. To be fair that team has Pex on it so I'm definitely less in need of a softish check to Keldeo and Zard-Y.
 
I think it would help to have some replays of Roserade, cause I haven't seen anyone use it. Absorbing toxic spikes is ok, but mega-venu, and toxapex both can do that. It can come in on tapu koko and hope it doesn't get hit by hp ice, coming in on zapdos is meh cause zapdos has hp ice and heatwave. greninja can run both ice beam and extrasensory, Magnezone also runs hp ice most of the time . A lot of people run defog also with steel types and with mons like mega-venu or toxapex, completely shutting down its toxic spikes. Like I said I think it would help to some of replays of it, since I think most people haven't seen Roserade, or just use better mons.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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I think it's fine to talk about Unranked Pokemon potentially being ranked, but you definitely need solid replays to back up your claim, as it says in the OP. Otherwise, yeah no reason to keep talking about it, especially with Rosy facing a lot of competition from other T-Spikers/Spikers in general, and with both of those hazards being harder to keep up with the influx in removal/absorbers.
 

NG Spencer

Banned deucer.
Speaking of underwhelming poison/grass types I think its time amoonguss goes down to b-. In the current meta theres little reason to use it over other and better defensive grass types like ferrothorn, the new av bulu, even tangrowth and especially mega venusaur who is superior in almost every way. Ferrothorn is amazing right now thanks to its ability to take on various top tier threats and set up busted spikes and can run knock to not let things like heatran in for free. Bulu holding av lets it take on similar threats while providing grassy terrain utility to teammates like heatran and with natures madness it forces counters like venusaur and scizor to heal instead of attack. While it has really fallen from grace, av tang still offers its perks by being able to knock off clef and pex and nail heatran with earthquake. Unlike amoonguss, venusaur can switch into threats such as aoa mawile and can handle sd kartana much better thanks to its better bulk, and offers greater speed, far superior offensive presence while having a wide movepool that includes earthquake, leech seed, knock and is customizable to fit your teams needs. Sure amoonguss can absorb tspikes, but you could instead use venusaur for this or ferrothorn who is immune to them and pair bulu and tang with toxapex as a way to remove them, and of course theres the new defoggers such as gliscor and rotom who can remove tspikes. Being able to make it a 5v6 with spore is cool, but not always a reality thanks to kokos high usage which means you have to deal with electric terrain being up and preventing grounded mons from falling asleep which sucks considering that mons that who love to switch into amoonguss like heatran and kyurem black are grounded. Also theres grass types like venusaur, who hard counters it, ferrothorn, which you needs hp fire to even scratch, av bulu and tang, which you need a poison move dent, who can block spore and running spore/giga/sludge/fire means you cant run double status which works decently well in matchups where no grass type is present. Another big point is that amoonguss is just so passive, while there are tons of calcs showing its poor damage output I feel these calcs demonstrate how even in the best case for amoonguss it hits like a wet bag:
0 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Ferrothorn: 104-124 (29.5 - 35.2%) blocks (stun)spore and takes nothing from giga or sludge
0 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-Black: 103-123 (26.3 - 31.4%) is often paired with koko meaning it doesn't worry about spore

And of course if you elect for stun spore > sludge bomb:
0 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 50-60 (14.5 - 17.4%)
0 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 56-68 (13.8 - 16.8%)

Basically amoonguss should drop since it faces tough competition from other grass types (and pex tbh), while being passive as hell making it susceptible to top tier threats.
 
A- to somewhere lower

To be fair, Tangrowth has been rather poor for the past month as it faces a lot of competition from Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, and particularly AV Bulu, which literally does pretty much everything better than Tangrowth. AV Tangrowth invites in far too many breakers (Think KyuB, MMaw, MMedi, ZardX, Blacephalon, Lele, and Kartana if its not running HP Fire). These are some Pokemon that are often paired with Tapu Koko, and also some of the most destructive breakers in the tier, making Tangrowth a risky play instead of a supposedly safe play. It struggles to check Ash-Greninja over the long run as it loses 10% of its health every time Rocks are up to pre BB gren, and Spikes just makes the equation works. Other coverage options such as Ice Beam have no problem whatsoever breaking past it. Giving boosters such as Pinsir and Volcarona free boosts doesn't help it. Landorus-T can just Knock it off and make it pretty much deadweight for the rest of the game. It also loses to Devastating Drake Zyg, and people are only more and more using Tectonic Rage Zyg.

Tangrowth also has very minor niches over AV Bulu, which on the other hand can actually punish switches with Natures Madness, actually has a strong grass move, and resists Ash Greninja's Dark Pulse. Bulu also has a grass STAB which is a lot stronger. Ferrothorn can set up hazards, Thunder Wave, and Leech Seed threats( even though it is not a particularly good Ash-Greninja or Koko check). Mega Venusaur is a lot better on balance teams, if it still has a Mega Slot as it checks MMaw and does not mind running HP Fire. Due to this, I don't believe it should be the same subrank as Mega Venusaur, Mega Lopunny, or Blacephalon, and at very best it is about as good as Mega Alakazam, Mega Charizard X, Mega Medicham, and Mega Swampert.
 
Maybe a bit controversial, but I've been using ZardX and having a good time. I've noticed others doing the same. Here's the set I've been using, and I think it has some advantages over the standard 252 Atk/Spe Jolly Set.

Charizard (Mega X)
Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw

B+ -> A-

First: since USUM, a few of Pokemon have enjoyed increased viability, and most of them have trouble with ZardX:
- Blacephalon: Spamming fire is now a turn lost to setup. While boosting sets are still a problem for Zard, the proper teammates (Weavile, Koko, Scarf users, etc.) can patch that hole.
- Kartana: While SD sets are still scary, Scarf sets have pretty much nothing to deal with Zard's reasonable bulk and wealth of resistances. Not to mention that Knock Off doesn't get a boost on a mega
- Heatran: It's everywhere working as a Blacephalon check and with the provided EV's, Zard outspeeds and cleanly OHKO's it - not to mention that Spdef sets are setup bait without Earth Power.
- Tyranitar: Again, everywhere as a Blace check and weak to EQ, so ZardX appreciates it, especially after the boost. While it can't OHKO unboosted (or safely switch in), merely the fact that people use Tyranitar means there's one more thing for Zard to plow through after a Dragon Dance

Second: existing metagame situations leave holes for Zard to sweep
- Common support/stall mons like Mew, Sableye, Ferrothorn, Clefable, Heatran, M-Scizor, Magnezone, Zapdos and Toxapex provide a hole for Charizard X and can't properly prevent either a setup or a 2HKO at +1. While some of these matchups are situational, most of them result in either a free DD for Zard or a free kill after the boost. That's big because of how useful most of these pokemon are to a huge variety of team archetypes.
- Sweepers lack the tools needed to deal with Zard: Koko, Bulu and Lele can't snag OHKO's against this set which can be really big late game once your opponent's walls are weakened
- The recent addition of like 10 Defog users provides Zard with a huge amount of usable teammates - after all, Rocks are ZardX's bigget enemy, particularly on a set like this without Roost. As a side note, I've used 3-attack Roost sets and they're great, but I almost always take the opportunity to boost over recovery on a pokemon that struggles to kill things like Toxapex or Clefable.

Third: Zard is inherently good, with good bulk, a decent speed tier, auspicious typing, a great ability and a wide enough move pool to cover a massive amount of threats without straying too far from STAB attacks
- Because there are a number of useful sets and coverage options, your opponent often has to scout to figure out what's going on with Charizard. At +1, that can mean the difference between losing your Heatran/Ferrothorn/Dragon type and living to tell the tale. I've seen a lot of people sack Zygarde or Heatran hoping that I didn't have the right coverage move.
- The only really really solid counters to a +1/+1 Zard are Haze Toxapex, who will take a good deal of damage on its Haze turn and Lando-T, who can be worn down or accounted for with the right partners. Given the number of things that Zard can setup on, it's worth worrying about the +1/+1 situation. Generally my rule is to wear down Lando and clear rocks before worrying about Zard setup.

Anyway, like I said, this isn't a totally bulletproof argument but I think Zard X is deserving of some added love. Hopefully this is at least compelling.
 
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Alright I think it's about time I make a nomination on probably the most overlooked threat right now:

A -> A+

Where to start with this monster? I guess I'll start with the decrease usage of Tangrowth and Mew. Tangrowth is mostly outclassed by AV Bulu now, it's simply too passive compared to Bulu who walls the same things that Tangrowth does but better and isn't passive. However, it has it niche of able to check any Zygarde/Kartana variant unlike Bulu which I'll explain later. Mew is pretty explainable why it's seeing less usage: Banded Tar, Blacephalon and Ash Gren being busted as it is. Mew was able to cripple and even knockout Zygarde with Ice Beam. The surge of defoggers also doesn't help Mew's usage as it's prone to all hazards unlike Rotom-W and Gliscor. With these two gone, it gives Zygarde even more breathing room.

Now, the meta trend. Banded Tar, Toxapex/Celesteela cores, AV Mage etc. all increase Zygarde's viability as it can shred through common cores like Toxapex/Celesteela, whilst it can abuse Band Tar locked into Stone Edge, Koko locked into Electric-type move or Blacephalon locked into Fire Blast as free setup opportunities. As of right the best answers are Scarfers like Latios (which has been seeing usage drop as well, due to TTar) or defensive Pokemon like Lando-T or AV Bulu. However, Lando-T is prone to getting worn down by Zygarde if paired with another threat like Tyranitar or Kartana. AV Bulu can actually be beaten by a certain set: Sub/Protect/Coil Mono Attack, you use Sub + Protect until Grassy Terrain runs out and at +1 Defense AV Bulu can never break your sub even with Wood Hammer (also Horn Leech never breaks sub even in Grassy Terrain at +1 Def, so using Wood Hammer just wears you down). Sub DD/Coil also beats Toxapex and Celesteela which is amazing considering those Pokemon wall the majority of the OU meta. It breaks AV Mage allowing strong special attackers like Lele/Ash-Gren to put in more work. Honestly the best answer for Zygarde right now is Unaware Clefable in my opinion. I hope this is compelling enough to warrant viability ranking increase.

60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. +1 252 HP / 120+ Def Zygarde: 87-103 (20.7 - 24.5%)
60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. +1 252 HP / 120+ Def Zygarde in Grassy Terrain: 84-99 (20 - 23.5%)
 
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Alright I think it's about time I make a nomination on probably the most overlooked threat right now:

A -> A+

Where to start with this monster? I guess I'll start with the decrease usage of Tangrowth and Mew. Tangrowth is mostly outclassed by AV Bulu now, it's simply too passive compared to Bulu who walls the same things that Tangrowth does but better and isn't passive. However, it has it niche of able to check any Zygarde/Kartana variant unlike Bulu which I'll explain later. Mew is pretty explainable why it's seeing less usage: Banded Tar, Blacephalon and Ash Gren being busted as it is. Mew was able to cripple and even knockout Zygarde with Ice Beam. The surge of defoggers also doesn't help Mew's usage as it's prone to all hazards unlike Rotom-W and Gliscor. With these two gone, it gives Zygarde even more breathing room.

Now, the meta trend. Banded Tar, Toxapex/Celesteela cores, AV Mage etc. all increase Zygarde's viability as it can shred through common cores like Toxapex/Celesteela, whilst it can abuse Band Tar locked into Stone Edge, Koko locked into Electric-type move or Blacephalon locked into Fire Blast as free setup opportunities. As of right the best answers are Scarfers like Latios (which has been seeing usage drop as well, due to TTar) or defensive Pokemon like Lando-T or AV Bulu. However, Lando-T is prone to getting worn down by Zygarde if paired with another threat like Tyranitar or Kartana. AV Bulu can actually be beaten by a certain set: Sub/Protect/Coil Mono Attack, you use Sub + Protect until Grassy Terrain runs out and at +1 Defense AV Bulu can never break your sub even with Wood Hammer (also Horn Leech never breaks sub even in Grassy Terrain at +1 Def, so using Wood Hammer just wears you down). Sub DD/Coil also beats Toxapex and Celesteela which is amazing considering those Pokemon wall the majority of the OU meta. It breaks AV Mage allowing strong special attackers like Lele/Ash-Gren to put in more work. Honestly the best answer for Zygarde right now is Unaware Clefable in my opinion. I hope this is compelling enough to warrant viability ranking increase.

60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. +1 252 HP / 120+ Def Zygarde: 87-103 (20.7 - 24.5%)
60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. +1 252 HP / 120+ Def Zygarde in Grassy Terrain: 84-99 (20 - 23.5%)

Many of the things you mention are true. I would just like to point out that the certain set that can get rid of AV Bulu is not a good set in general. The set is one dimensional, and it's only use seems to be getting rid of Bulu. It's honestly better to have an answer to AV Bulu on your team (i.e. Kartana, Mega Zard X, Celesteela, Toxapex w/ t spikes), and to instead run a more viable set such as DD.
 

Yung Dramps

awesome gaming
  • Garchomp is practically not worth using in this tier anymore. It's so outclassed on so many levels as a breaker, revenge killer, and offensive rocker, and is probably going to keep dropping.
Never in a thousand years did I think I would see the day where Garchomp would be called "outclassed" and "not worth using" in OU.



So long, Mr. G. It's been an awesome 3 generations.

See you in BL, dragon cowboy.
 
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