Unpopular opinions

[stage7_4]

Please don't use terms like "triggered" and then "git gud." It devalues them, and this is an open community where everyone is entitled to their opinion. And I'll admit I use hyperbole to make an eye-catcher but let's open the floor to discussion:

1. Route 216 and 217 to Snowpoint are definitely hard, but not really due to being challenging. They're hard because they are long levels of attrition designed to break your patience. While some of the isolated elements could make for a good level (the abundance of Ace Trainers and lack of checkpoints do give the game some needed bite), it really comes down to nesting a lot of these elements into one long route. It sucks to be fighting hard trainers with half a team of HM slaves and constant hail while getting stuck in a snow bank every five steps with low visibility.

And really, can anybody even defend the deep snow mechanic? It doesn't add anything of value and just makes the trek take longer. And realism isn't a defense when you have fish that shoot lasers.

2. Linearity here is that there is one golden path without any player input on the order of events. Remember how in Kanto you could do over half the gyms in any order? And in Johto you had that T-split in Ecruteak city where you could do the Lake of Rage first or the Olivine lighthouse first? That's what I'm talking about.

Linearity vs. non-linearity isn't really a "one's better than the other" discussion, as both are tools that deliver a specific experience. It's just that Sinnoh has a linear path but doesn't really utilize it to deliver anything and still has a lot of backtracking as you crisscross around the map despite the linearity. Mt. Silver you only visit once, Mt. Coronet you revisit multiple times in growing doses.

Gamefreak themselves recognized this problem in Platinum, as they re-worked the gym order from Diamond & Pearl so it made a little more sense.

3. Well, count along with me: (discounting Fly in both instances since it's the fast travel option).

Hoenn had: Flash, Cut, Rock Smash, Strength, Surf, Dive, and Waterfall.
Sinnoh had: Flash (as a TM now but still utilized for puzzles), Cut, Rock Smash, Strength, Surf, Waterfall, Defog, and Rock Climb.

That's one extra field move over Hoenn.

4. Opinions, so let's just move on. Good for you if you liked them, but I didn't.

5. While overall I liked Unova's art asthetic (very Earthbound and I love Earthbound), the routes themselves seemed to be lacking, like something was missing. It's a feeling I've had for every game in the series since.

For example, as part of the new linear gameplay and downplaying HM's, Unova had a lot of artificial barriers to halt exploration (like a group of men dancing for no reason). While mechanically there isn't much difference between a group of dancing men halting you from going to the next town and a wide ocean you can't surf yet, aesthetically it feels different.

An ocean, to me, felt like "wow once I get surf I can explore all of this." It was like a present waiting to be opened. Being able to surf gave new gameplay options.

Men dancing for no reason felt like the game was trying to stop me from having fun. A very "eat your brocoli first, we need N and Cheren to rant about empty platitudes for 3 more hours before you can come back here." These barriers were taking away gameplay options that had already been provided.

 

[Altissimo]

this is an open community where everyone is entitled to their opinion.

agreeing with this, people are allowed to think sinnoh sucks and there's really nothing good to come out of going "you're wrong because i said so here's why". this is an unpopular opinions thread not an "unpopular views on Objective Fact" game

i mean of course there's room for debate but saying "git gud" is just a dick move.

 

[hypno28]

I'll never understand the complaints about the guys dancing. It's sort of dumb, but at least it doesn't make the world revolve around the player, like other roadblocks -- especially many that require HMs. Not being able to surf is one thing (that makes sense), but, for example, the whole route north of Mauville in Hoenn being blocked by rocks is just ridiculous.

 

[stage7_4]

I'll never understand the complaints about the guys dancing. It's sort of dumb, but at least it doesn't make the world revolve around the player, like other roadblocks -- especially many that require HMs. Not being able to surf is one thing (that makes sense), but, for example, the whole route north of Mauville in Hoenn being blocked by rocks is just ridiculous.

I mostly use the dancing men one as the example because it's the silliest and most in-your-face about it's status as an artificial barrier. Usually it was because the bridge was up or a girl really wanted to sniff around with Stoutland, you really need that gym badge, power failure (when lights are clearly on in the distance), or a many other lame to mundane to entertaining excuses. Any one of these can be substituted into the argument of "artificial story-trigger barriers."

I'll agree that piles of rocks don't make much sense either, and accomplish about the same mechanically as any other barrier.

You can make a small case for Surf and Strength being used to enhance gameplay (giving different areas to explore or creating puzzle opportunities) along with acting as "keys" to parts of the map, but the rest of the HMs are functionally no different from walls of dancing men. It was more how they feel to me, which as always is open to opinion.

 

[BlizzardHero]

1. Route 216 and 217 to Snowpoint are definitely hard, but not really due to being challenging. They're hard because they are long levels of attrition designed to break your patience. While some of the isolated elements could make for a good level (the abundance of Ace Trainers and lack of checkpoints do give the game some needed bite), it really comes down to nesting a lot of these elements into one long route. It sucks to be fighting hard trainers with half a team of HM slaves and constant hail while getting stuck in a snow bank every five steps with low visibility.

And really, can anybody even defend the deep snow mechanic? It doesn't add anything of value and just makes the trek take longer. And realism isn't a defense when you have fish that shoot lasers.

I mean, I'd rather have it difficult even simply as a result longevity than boring. At least there's a tangible challenge, rather than later games like Alola, where most of the routes you can just do on auto pilot. I actually lost battles in Sinnoh against difficult trainers (and not as a result of bad RNG, just simply the difficulty curve). Elesa from Gen 5 was the only other trainer in the main series I ever lost to since Sinnoh, and that has more to do with my team comp than anything.

Of course, the deep snow is a bit overly annoying, same as the swamp in the lower route (too lazy to find the actual name :P). However, I think that has more to do with hardware limitations. Gen 4 just plays slower (though HGSS is marginally faster) than Gen 3, beacuse of how much more detail there is, thus challenges that affect playtime feel longer than they were intended to be.

2. Linearity here is that there is one golden path without any player input on the order of events. Remember how in Kanto you could do over half the gyms in any order? And in Johto you had that T-split in Ecruteak city where you could do the Lake of Rage first or the Olivine lighthouse first? That's what I'm talking about.

Linearity vs. non-linearity isn't really a "one's better than the other" discussion, as both are tools that deliver a specific experience. It's just that Sinnoh has a linear path but doesn't really utilize it to deliver anything and still has a lot of backtracking as you crisscross around the map despite the linearity. Mt. Silver you only visit once, Mt. Coronet you revisit multiple times in growing doses.

Gamefreak themselves recognized this problem in Platinum, as they re-worked the gym order from Diamond & Pearl so it made a little more sense.

Linear gameplay isn't anything new tbh, from a developer's standpoint, it's far easier to do. The more freedom you give the player, the more likely they'll find a way to break the game. DPP was another complete overhaul of the engine, and built on different hardware (GB -> DS), so they had to cut corners to make sure everything worked and came out on time. At least the map doesn't look linear, where as Unova and Kalos are basically two giant circles -_-

Considering the hardware jump, Gen 4 was really detailed. In recent history, from Unova to Kalos, and ORAS to Alola, content has always taken a massive hit, with far less to do than the previous title. However, DP doesn't feel like that, there's plenty to do postgame that will occupy your time.

3. Well, count along with me: (discounting Fly in both instances since it's the fast travel option).

Hoenn had: Flash, Cut, Rock Smash, Strength, Surf, Dive, and Waterfall.
Sinnoh had: Flash (as a TM now but still utilized for puzzles), Cut, Rock Smash, Strength, Surf, Waterfall, Defog, and Rock Climb.

That's one extra field move over Hoenn.

You could... you know... use HM's as actual combat moves, like they were intended XD. You can get away without using Flash (hehe, #BlindAsAZubat=HitEveryWallXD) and Defog, but every other HM has a real in battle use. I used Rock Smash on my Chimchar, and that worked fine until I could eventually remove it. Gamefreak didn't intend for people to use HM slaves, they actually wanted you to use these moves, then eventually get rid of them on your Pokemon as you got better and more skilled at training your Pokemon. They're good training wheels, but it's just the Game Freak forgot people are stupid and won't understand that.

 

[Kurona]

I like the dancing men itself because it's so unabashed about what it is and makes it funny. I appreciate they had a sense of humour about it rather than having something like a news reporter which just annoyed me.

 

[hypno28]

I mostly use the dancing men one as the example because it's the silliest and most in-your-face about it's status as an artificial barrier. Usually it was because the bridge was up or a girl really wanted to sniff around with Stoutland, you really need that gym badge, power failure (when lights are clearly on in the distance), or a many other lame to mundane to entertaining excuses. Any one of these can be substituted into the argument of "artificial story-trigger barriers."

I'll agree that piles of rocks don't make much sense either, and accomplish about the same mechanically as any other barrier.

You can make a small case for Surf and Strength being used to enhance gameplay (giving different areas to explore or creating puzzle opportunities) along with acting as "keys" to parts of the map, but the rest of the HMs are functionally no different from walls of dancing men. It was more how they feel to me, which as always is open to opinion.

I think the dancing men obstacle is probably one of the most plausible they've used. That and the drawbridge being up are 100% fine to me. The issue with something like rocks blocking the road is that it means that entire area was semi-permanently blocked for everyone in the region until the player character showed up and used Rock Smash (or, strictly speaking it goes back to being blocked after you leave too).

The point for me is that the dancing men follow the right principle. When roadblocks make it seem like the world is physically designed around the needs of the player's adventure, that's absurd and hurts realism. If the dancing men seem dumb to someone else, okay; they've done plenty of actually dumb ones that followed basically the right approach but didn't execute it well (the Tauros ones in SM, for example), and they should try to make them as plausible as possible.

 

[Nelson Tangela]

I'd take those dancing guys and random rocks or bushes over this bs any day.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

I'd take those dancing guys and random rocks or bushes over this bs any day.

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sadly that's what they did in sinnoh. :-(. I hate hate hate barriers and imo they shouldn't exist. At all. I'm an open world junkie so I'm biased though.
Alright sorry if I was being toxic. I wasn't trying to be. I'll again respond in underline.

Please don't use terms like "triggered" and then "git gud." It devalues them, and this is an open community where everyone is entitled to their opinion. And I'll admit I use hyperbole to make an eye-catcher but let's open the floor to discussion:
Yeah, sorry fren.
1. Route 216 and 217 to Snowpoint are definitely hard, but not really due to being challenging. They're hard because they are long levels of attrition designed to break your patience. While some of the isolated elements could make for a good level (the abundance of Ace Trainers and lack of checkpoints do give the game some needed bite), it really comes down to nesting a lot of these elements into one long route. It sucks to be fighting hard trainers with half a team of HM slaves and constant hail while getting stuck in a snow bank every five steps with low visibility.

And really, can anybody even defend the deep snow mechanic? It doesn't add anything of value and just makes the trek take longer. And realism isn't a defense when you have fish that shoot lasers.
While the pokemon don't tend to be realistic, everything else can be. It's not about patience. I know it's grueling, but you can't deny the realisticness of trekking through a snowstorm, being bogged down by everything.
2. Linearity here is that there is one golden path without any player input on the order of events. Remember how in Kanto you could do over half the gyms in any order? And in Johto you had that T-split in Ecruteak city where you could do the Lake of Rage first or the Olivine lighthouse first? That's what I'm talking about.

Linearity vs. non-linearity isn't really a "one's better than the other" discussion, as both are tools that deliver a specific experience. It's just that Sinnoh has a linear path but doesn't really utilize it to deliver anything and still has a lot of backtracking as you crisscross around the map despite the linearity. Mt. Silver you only visit once, Mt. Coronet you revisit multiple times in growing doses.

Gamefreak themselves recognized this problem in Platinum, as they re-worked the gym order from Diamond & Pearl so it made a little more sense.
Yeah the DP gym order was, um, weird. I do think that the criss cross should have let you do gyms in whatever order you want. As for backtracking, well, I really can't argue with that. I never found it slow or tedious but I'm biased because I was in 3rd grade and oblivious.

3. Well, count along with me: (discounting Fly in both instances since it's the fast travel option).

Hoenn had: Flash, Cut, Rock Smash, Strength, Surf, Dive, and Waterfall.
Sinnoh had: Flash (as a TM now but still utilized for puzzles), Cut, Rock Smash, Strength, Surf, Waterfall, Defog, and Rock Climb.

That's one extra field move over Hoenn.
Flash is only used once, so counting it is unfair to sinnoh. Defog you can also get by without, and rock climb is rarely ever used either. In HOenn, almost every route REQUIRED an HM - well, not almost every but a lot more than sinnoh really. I got by with a Bibarel that I caught and one fly mon.

4. Opinions, so let's just move on. Good for you if you liked them, but I didn't.
Subjective, I shall agree.

5. While overall I liked Unova's art asthetic (very Earthbound and I love Earthbound), the routes themselves seemed to be lacking, like something was missing. It's a feeling I've had for every game in the series since.

For example, as part of the new linear gameplay and downplaying HM's, Unova had a lot of artificial barriers to halt exploration (like a group of men dancing for no reason). While mechanically there isn't much difference between a group of dancing men halting you from going to the next town and a wide ocean you can't surf yet, aesthetically it feels different.

An ocean, to me, felt like "wow once I get surf I can explore all of this." It was like a present waiting to be opened. Being able to surf gave new gameplay options.

Men dancing for no reason felt like the game was trying to stop me from having fun. A very "eat your brocoli first, we need N and Cheren to rant about empty platitudes for 3 more hours before you can come back here." These barriers were taking away gameplay options that had already been provided.
Barriers are always annoying and imo they shouldn't even exist, and if they should, they shouldn't be lazy af and weird af like those dancing men (I remember laughing out loud when I saw those, but then becoming very pissed). What I liked about Unova's route were how... big they were. I wrote about this in the little things you like thread. Each of them is so big and beautiful, you can explore it, do whatever. I should have made that clear, sorry free.

So yeah, sorry if I was being toxic. I was tired af.

 

[Rapti]

I would just like to say that Sinnoh's route design was so bad Gamefreak apperently got actual complains from japanese parents and that's what lead to every game since then having more linear routes and less exploration

(and don't go and tell me Sinnoh had no exploration I mean lots of people even missed Fuego Ironworks)

 

[Caramel Prisoner]

You could... you know... use HM's as actual combat moves, like they were intended XD. You can get away without using Flash (hehe, #BlindAsAZubat=HitEveryWallXD) and Defog, but every other HM has a real in battle use. I used Rock Smash on my Chimchar, and that worked fine until I could eventually remove it. Gamefreak didn't intend for people to use HM slaves, they actually wanted you to use these moves, then eventually get rid of them on your Pokemon as you got better and more skilled at training your Pokemon. They're good training wheels, but it's just the Game Freak forgot people are stupid and won't understand that.

The problem is that that's really boring. Using a Bibarel with Cut, Strength, Surf and Waterfall just isn't very interesting. Maybe that's just me, but I find using the same moves again and again incredibly tiring.

 

[BlizzardHero]

The problem is that that's really boring. Using a Bibarel with Cut, Strength, Surf and Waterfall just isn't very interesting. Maybe that's just me, but I find using the same moves again and again incredibly tiring.

Gamefreak didn't intend for people to use HM slaves, they actually wanted you to use these moves, then eventually get rid of them on your Pokemon as you got better and more skilled at training your Pokemon.

As in, DONT USE HM SLAVES -_-. Bibarel gets STAB from Cut/Strength/Waterfall, which makes them great options for Bibarel who's very physical. But there are other options. In Eterna Forest, there's Bunery who doesn't get a good Normal type move for until level 36, so Cut works well on it. Ponyta is available on Route 206, and it doesn't get any good physical moves, so running Strength on it is not a bad idea until level 44-48. Psyduck doesn't get a good special water type move until level 48, so you might as well run Surf. You can run Waterfall over Aqua Tail on Gyrados just fine, as the attack drop isn't really noticeable (and they're available literally everywhere in Sinnoh), plus you get flinch chance and 100% accuracy.

There's plenty of options if you're willing to look around for it. Game Freak didn't intend for people to make HM slaves in the first place, you're supposed to switch around Pokemon and use HM's in battle, not just as a means to an end.

 

[Xen]

You could... you know... use HM's as actual combat moves, like they were intended XD. You can get away without using Flash (hehe, #BlindAsAZubat=HitEveryWallXD) and Defog, but every other HM has a real in battle use. I used Rock Smash on my Chimchar, and that worked fine until I could eventually remove it. Gamefreak didn't intend for people to use HM slaves, they actually wanted you to use these moves, then eventually get rid of them on your Pokemon as you got better and more skilled at training your Pokemon. They're good training wheels, but it's just the Game Freak forgot people are stupid and won't understand that.

Problem is, you can't just simply remove them later on. Sure you can eventually drop Rock Smash off your Chimchar, but that's not going to change the need of the move to advance in the over-world during the story, which means the move will just transfer to another party Pokemon and compromise their movepool as a result. That's why HM slaves are used, because you truly cannot discard HM moves until you're at the League's doorstep and can Fly to the move deleter. Even then that requires you to keep at least Fly, and if you plan on exploring any post-game areas you'll (most likely) need them once again.

Also saying that all HMs have real battle use is stretching it. Sure moves like Surf and Waterfall are great, and you can get by with Fly, but stuff like Flash, Cut, and (to a slightly lesser extent) Rock Smash are trash moves even at the beginning of the game. Heck, there was a point in the franchise when Tackle was a better move than Cut. That's pretty problematic when you can't just simply write them off for better moves without needing a specialist NPC. Why should someone be forced to use stuff like Cut for the sake of story progression when they have options like Return or even the HM Strength?

 

[Suspicious Derivative]

It's not often I feel like I absolutely have to say something on a subject, but given some recent discussions here, this is one of those situations. I also have an opportunity to say some things I have been thinking about posting somewhere for quite a long time, so let's go.

This became quite long so I put most of my thoughts in spoiler tags. My apologies.

Evil teams - Galactic, Rocket and Skull

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First of all, I like Team Galactic as an evil team. I also like Cyrus as a leader and a character. Before OR/AS, I would say that Galactic was my second favorite evil team behind Plasma, but after the improvements of Aqua/Magma in OR/AS and the appearance of Skull in S/M, I'm not exactly sure where to rank Galactic anymore. But they are somewhere in the top at least. I should also say that I don't count the Aether Foundation as an "evil team" since most of the members seem to be working for good causes, Lusamine and Faba to an extent are the only bad guys in them from my perspective.

Then, onto something else. I am not that fond of Team Rocket. I think this is rather unpopular since they get so much praise at various places, especially here on Smogon. They are my least favorite evil team in the series. I find them to be extremely generic and boring. Theft is among the simplest of crimes so there's not a whole lot you can do with it. What is even worse is that they don't do everything they could. Team Rocket never steals Pokemon from you, or any other important character. All you hear is one or two random NPCs mention it, then nothing more.

As for the other things they did, nothing was interesting or outstanding. Finding fossils at Mt. Moon? There's nothing wrong with that since you (as the player) do the same thing. Running a Game Corner? That's not illegal. Killing Marowak? Okay, this is kinda brutal but it is just one Pokemon, and I never understood why they did it in the first place. Taking over Silph? Interesting, but extremely lame for a main goal compared to the other teams. Their actions at the Sevii Islands are rather interesting though, that's probably the closest Rocket ever got to being somewhat cool. What they do in the Johto games aren't interesting at all though. Selling Slowpoke tails? Taking over a Radio Tower? Not cool, unique or interesting... unless you are under 12, like when I played Silver for the first time. Nowadays, it doesn't impress me at all. I definitely prefer the more recent evil teams and their over-the-top goals and motives.

Team Rocket often gets credit for the creation of Mewtwo, but as far as I know, that is never outright stated in the games (it is stated in other media like the anime and Pokemon Adventures). So I don't consider that to be something they are behind either when it comes to game canon.

That said, I do like Giovanni as a character. He is one of the few good things about Team Rocket. It is just a shame that the rest of the team doesn't live up to the same qualities. Looking back though, I don't think there's a single evil team leader I dislike. As for the Rocket Admins though, I find them uninteresting and forgettable, I can't even remember their names or designs without looking them up. I definitely prefer the Galactic Admins over them, they were far more interesting.

Then there's Team Skull. I feel like they are a successful version of Team Rocket, yet vastly different at the same time. Let's compare them and see. Team Rocket seems serious at first, criminals and thieves with potentially huge ambitions... but they never really do anything serious or threatening, and the overall impression I get from them is that they are boring and uninteresting. They could have been great, but the potential was lost somewhere along the way. Team Skull on the other hand, start out as extremely unserious and humorous villains with the weirdest goals (I started to laugh when I first saw them trying to steal the bus sign!). But later in the game, we find that they are actually cooperating with and working under Lusamine (and the Aether Foundation). They are the exact opposite of Team Rocket and a good version of them at the same time.

I think that was what I had to say regarding the evil teams. Moving on...

Regions - Is Sinnoh good or bad?

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I have been thinking about this for a bit lately and I finally arrived at a conclusion I was almost afraid of, but one I can now accept without problems. It is this: Sinnoh is my second favorite region in the series. It has literally everything I look for in a Pokemon region: Lots of variation in terms of environments, it is large and linear, has optional areas along the way, a great regional dex (Platinum only), a good level curve as well as large post-game areas with new Pokemon and strong trainers. So yeah, second favorite. It is not as good as Unova but better than everything else.

Next, I want to look at some of the criticism that was given to Sinnoh and how I feel about those things.

1. Snow Routes. Okay, unpopular opinion ahead, I guess (so it suits this thread, yay!). I love the snow routes in Sinnoh. I love snow in real life and winter is my favorite season as well as my birth season so I do have a bit of bias I guess, but anyway, seeing snow in a Pokemon game for the first time was fantastic. I loved exploring these routes every time I played through the Sinnoh games. I didn't mind there being no Fly spots since there was the cabin where you could heal your team, and personally I didn't find Snowpoint to be that far away. The large amount of Ace Trainers gives you some good training, or a challenge depending on how you play (and since the fandom often complains about the recent games being too easy, how could you dislike that?). IIRC it doesn't take more than one HM to get there (Strength at one place in Mt. Coronet, correct me if I'm wrong), with Defog being optional to go through the foggy part of the cave. I didn't mind being forced to go slowly through the snow, it was kinda fun and relaxing in a way. So yeah, I love the snow routes, though I can understand why other people dislike them.

2. Linear region. Unpopular opinion again(!), I prefer linearity over non-linearity when it comes to Pokemon regions. Linearity allows the games to have better control over story, level curve and what Pokemon the player has access to, non-linearity does not. While Sinnoh isn't perfectly linear like Unova, it comes quite close. There are also several optional areas. I'll admit that it could be a bit confusing at times (in D/P at least, I believe Platinum fixed this), but it wasn't that bad. It could have been so much worse. It could have been... okay, never mind, I'll get to this soon anyway.

As for the alternative, non-linear regions, I'm not so fond of them. You could do half of the Kanto Gyms in any order, but what was the point? You would just be underleveled for one Gym and then overleveled for the one you skipped. Not to mention waiting with some Gyms would lock you out of using some HMs since they were locked to Gym Badges in those games. The most notable being Surf (Koga) and Fly (Lt. Surge) which limited your means of exploration or made the game less convenient if you chose to skip them. I also feel that the level curve of Kanto could have been better, but at least it wasn't as bad as that of...

Johto! You could choose between going to Olivine or Mahogany after Ecruteak... but it came at the cost of the level curve being awful. I'm consistently astonished by the fact that some people seem to actually like this crap but hate on every little thing that's linear, while I'm on the other side as I like linearity but can't stand bad level curves. Guess that's a clear example of opinions right there.

One other thing I should mention here is the story factor. Linear games allow them to have better stories (yes, I know this is subjective), I definitely prefer the stories of Sinnoh and Unova to those of Kanto and Johto.

I think that was all regarding that.

3. Too many HMs? I honestly never had a problem with the HMs in Sinnoh. Using one or two HM slaves was always enough. However, I didn't like the HM usage in Johto. I believe this was because of two factors. I find Johto to be a lot less convenient with its HM usage, like with the fact that you need Rock Climb to reach Red in HG/SS or that one room in Mt. Mortar that forced you to surf across a ton of small ponds after one another which was annoying as heck. Then I found the PC system in the Sinnoh games to be much better than the awful one in HG/SS, or the ancient and outdated one in G/S/C. The Sinnoh system was by no means perfect, but it was convenient and simple to use, which was enough for me. The HG/SS PC system was extremely convoluted and difficult to use, I never liked it. So withdrawing my sweet little HM slaves was much easier in D/P/P than in HG/SS, making the HMs less of an issue in the Sinnoh games.

4. More annoying routes. Once again, I disagree (insert Colress face here lol). I honestly loved Mt. Coronet, it was the first real mountain in the games and I never got annoyed by the HM usage there, not going to repeat what I have already said. As for the Swamp routes, getting stuck there could be annoying but it was never that bad. I didn't mind the Great Marsh, I liked how they tried something different with the Safari Zone for once. And they did at least do it very well, unlike the awful Safari Zone in HG/SS. As for the Survival Area... I do agree that the Route east of it (226) was a bit annoying with all the Rock Climbing, which is why I never returned to it (coming from the Survival Area) once I had beaten all the trainers there. Other areas... I don't know. This is getting long already, and I have more to say on other subjects.

5. The future after Sinnoh. Players complained that Sinnoh was too complex and difficult. Game Freak made Unova more simple and linear. Players complained that Unova was too simple and linear. That's the Pokemon fandom for you. Never satisfied, always complaining about everything... or at least something. Generalizing but I'm guilty of this too so I think that makes it okay. The problem is that people seem to dislike linearity, but still not like the linear non-linearity of Sinnoh... guess that explains it, making it less of a problem. Yet it seems that few people had a problem with the awful Johto level-curve or Kanto's lackluster story... guess I'm one of the few who do. I also like most of the routes in the newer games. Unova had interesting optional areas on a majority of its Routes, most of the main routes were also very long. Kalos was similar. Alola could have been better at times though, but it wasn't bad.

A short thought on Roadblocks. I don't mind them in most cases, and I still think the dancing men in B2/W2 is one of the best and funniest roadblocks in the series.

Last words on Sinnoh

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Okay, one last thing I have thought about for a while. The fandom seems to be rather split when it comes to Sinnoh. One one hand, we have the Sinnoh haters who look at the bad things D/P did and refuse to accept that they did anything good at all. They also ignore all the good things from Platinum and pretend they didn't happen or that they were done by other games instead (most often HG/SS, sigh). On the other hand, we have the Sinnoh lovers who refuse to see the flaws with D/P and pretend that the good parts from Platinum existed in them as well, such as claiming D/P had the Battle Frontier (yes, I have seen people do this). I'm so sorry for generalizing but I just wanted to get the point across, I know that not all fans fall into either group. In fact, there are probably many who doesn't.

So where do I stand in all of this? The answer is that I like Sinnoh and the Sinnoh games. Second favorite region as said, the games are not my top favorites but they are nowhere close to the bottom either. I can definitely admit that D/P had flaws but I still like them and I found them highly enjoyable for their time, which is important. I think Platinum is a really great game overall with lots of content and fun features, it is not my top favorite game in the series but it is rather close. I'd say Platinum is my 5th (or 6th, depending on how you count) favorite game in the series, with D/P right after it. Though, after writing this, I might actually have to rank Platinum higher... I'm not really sure. It is not easy to pick a favorite when there are so many good Pokemon games!

I think that's all. Could have written more, but I left out some details I didn't consider important. This is not meant to be a personal attack on any member here, I sincerely apologize if anyone took it as one. I tried to be as gentle as I could. After all, these are just my opinions on things. If you disagree, then that's completely okay with me.

I feel like this post became too long... but writing a long post like this once in a while is probably a good thing to do. I should try to do it more often.

 

[Codraroll]

Another problem with Sinnoh's routes is that they are just so bland. Okay, the snowy routes are memorable, but the rest of them?

Sinnoh routes

The same bland tileset everywhere. The same trees line the path. The same quasi-maze layout. Very few natural features save for the cliffs everywhere (which also look the same all over the region). No landmarks, no houses, no quirky geography (save for some rainy and some foggy areas). Contrast Hoenn, on the previous console:

Hoenn routes

Several distinctly different types of trees, often within the same route. Several different types of tilesets. Differently-coloured cliffs. A distinct geographical feature for every route, from the ash-covered hills in the north of the region to the open and garden-like road between Verdanturf and Mauville, through the rainforest of Route 120.

Sinnoh was an absolute chore to trek through, while Hoenn was a joy and a visual feast. You could feasibly traverse most of Hoenn's land on foot, while in Sinnoh you ended up Flying everywere as soon as you could, because the routes were so nightmarish to pass through, and the places of interest were located on diametrically opposite sides of the region (Pal Park, Battle Zone, Pokémon League, Day Care. Try walking between any two of those to see what I mean).

Hoenn might have an abundance of samey water routes, but all of Sinnoh is fly-over territory. And don't even get me started on the cacophonic jumble of instruments that is the soundtrack. You may surely remember the handful of good tracks, but a lot of the route music in Sinnoh could be boiled down to a statement from the composer: "Listen to all the instruments we have! And we can make them all play different tunes at the same time!". Give me the triumphant trumpets any day.

 

[Kurona]

You've... actually got quite a point there, Codra. I never thought about it that much due to the layouts being memorable -- at least for me -- and having a lot of stuff to come back to whenever you got a new HM. I really hope they make 'em a lot more varied in the DP remakes, whenever they come out.

I'm fine with barriers if you're making a linear experience, though at the same time a linear experience begs a really really good reason for being a linear experience when you've got an interconnected world and the game is supposed to be about adventure. BW at least has the excuse of being linear because story - no matter how well that was or wasn't done; just on principle sacrificing non-linearity for story is fine imo - but what excuse does Sinnoh or Kalos have? And, of course, if you're going to have a barrier; have it be bearable or at least make it funny if you can't think of a good reason.

 

[The Faz]

You've... actually got quite a point there, Codra. I never thought about it that much due to the layouts being memorable -- at least for me -- and having a lot of stuff to come back to whenever you got a new HM. I really hope they make 'em a lot more varied in the DP remakes, whenever they come out.

I'm fine with barriers if you're making a linear experience, though at the same time a linear experience begs a really really good reason for being a linear experience when you've got an interconnected world and the game is supposed to be about adventure. BW at least has the excuse of being linear because story - no matter how well that was or wasn't done; just on principle sacrificing non-linearity for story is fine imo - but what excuse does Sinnoh or Kalos have? And, of course, if you're going to have a barrier; have it be bearable or at least make it funny if you can't think of a good reason.

Well, they could easly had make like that new Legend Of Zelda: every area avaible since start, if you can handle they. Game Freak can make so the entrance of routes you have a trainer thats more or less the same level that you is supposed to be to go to that route. All areas is avaible since the start, (except the League, but you have a reason to not be there) but you wouldnt be in the lv needed to survive there. I remember of an DP playtrought, and I couldnt pass an battle, I think the dude had an drapion... I grinded and was able to progrees. This would be more interesting than "oh no, a small tree blocks your path".

 

[Caramel Prisoner]

As in, DONT USE HM SLAVES -_-. Bibarel gets STAB from Cut/Strength/Waterfall, which makes them great options for Bibarel who's very physical. But there are other options. In Eterna Forest, there's Bunery who doesn't get a good Normal type move for until level 36, so Cut works well on it. Ponyta is available on Route 206, and it doesn't get any good physical moves, so running Strength on it is not a bad idea until level 44-48. Psyduck doesn't get a good special water type move until level 48, so you might as well run Surf. You can run Waterfall over Aqua Tail on Gyrados just fine, as the attack drop isn't really noticeable (and they're available literally everywhere in Sinnoh), plus you get flinch chance and 100% accuracy.

There's plenty of options if you're willing to look around for it. Game Freak didn't intend for people to make HM slaves in the first place, you're supposed to switch around Pokemon and use HM's in battle, not just as a means to an end.

Fair enough, I see your point. Still, you won't disagree that it limits my team options somewhat, right? What if, for example, I want to use a physical water type, and nothing else on my team can learn Surf? That's a waste of a move slot there, forcing me to either use my water type's weaker attacking stat for it's stab move or use two, limiting my coverage.

 

[BlizzardHero]

Fair enough, I see your point. Still, you won't disagree that it limits my team options somewhat, right? What if, for example, I want to use a physical water type, and nothing else on my team can learn Surf? That's a waste of a move slot there, forcing me to either use my water type's weaker attacking stat for it's stab move or use two, limiting my coverage.

Oh, of course it limits your team comps. HM's weren't designed for people planning out their teams or their runs, they're very fixed in their functionality. See, Game Freak (and TPC to pretty much the same extent), as much as we love them for giving us this wonderful franchise, are completely and utterly tone deaf.

When the community wants something changed, or wants something to stay the same, it usually falls on deaf ears. Game Freak is notorious for not listening to the community, and doing whatever the hell they want. The issue with HM's, is that they force you to play a certain way. They aren't necessarily a bad mechanic, it's just that they're limiting. So what did Game Freak do from Gen 4 -> 5 to try and fix this? They decided that the best way to fix the issue, was to move the Move Deleter closer in the linear story line. Their reasoning was that maybe people just want to be able to remove moves from their earlier Pokemon asap as they got outdated. Of course, that's not the underlying issue, it's that you need them to complete the game. But Game Freak doesn't care! It was probably the use of Latio/as fly in ORAS that eventually got Game Freak to remove HM's, beacuse it's a fun mechanic that makes it so you don't always have to lug around a fly Pokemon, not constant complaining from the community.

Whether its the rampant hacking in the VGC community, or people complaining about great mechanics like the PSS being removed, Game Freak does not give a rat's arse. We'll always get what Game Freak thinks is best, not what we, the community thinks is best, and of course unlike newer games were the fanbase can easily fluctuate if the developers do something stupid, Game Freak knows we chumps won't stop playing/buying Pokemon ever.

 

[Altissimo]

So what did Game Freak do from Gen 4 -> 5 to try and fix this? They decided that the best way to fix the issue, was to move the Move Deleter closer in the linear story line. Their reasoning was that maybe people just want to be able to remove moves from their earlier Pokemon asap as they got outdated. Of course, that's not the underlying issue, it's that you need them to complete the game. But Game Freak doesn't care!

But... you didn't actually need any HMs to complete B/W except Cut that one time to get to the Dreamyard?? So saying "you still need to complete the game with them" is actually inaccurate in this case. You can remove them earlier and they're not required, seems fair to me.

And don't even get me started on the cacophonic jumble of instruments that is the soundtrack. You may surely remember the handful of good tracks, but a lot of the route music in Sinnoh could be boiled down to a statement from the composer: "Listen to all the instruments we have! And we can make them all play different tunes at the same time!". Give me the triumphant trumpets any day.

I just. Don't remember any overworld soundtracks from games in 4th gen or later. 8-bit beeps and boops are easy enough to recognize and sing along to; Hoenn's trumpets were fantastically bombastic and brilliant. Sinnoh music was just... slow and hard to care about. It didn't seem to stand out any.

 

[The Faz]

But... you didn't actually need any HMs to complete B/W except Cut that one time to get to the Dreamyard?? So saying "you still need to complete the game with them" is actually inaccurate in this case. You can remove them earlier and they're not required, seems fair to me.



I just. Don't remember any overworld soundtracks from games in 4th gen or later. 8-bit beeps and boops are easy enough to recognize and sing along to; Hoenn's trumpets were fantastically bombastic and brilliant. Sinnoh music was just... slow and hard to care about. It didn't seem to stand out any.

False. Play pokemon mystery dungeon and you know what I am talking about.

Gen 4, one of the greatest tracks from PmdExplorers

 

[hypno28]

Whether its the rampant hacking in the VGC community, or people complaining about great mechanics like the PSS being removed, Game Freak does not give a rat's arse. We'll always get what Game Freak thinks is best, not what we, the community thinks is best.

That's how it should be. They shouldn't do anything because fans ask for it, but because it's actually the best thing to do (as they see it). Catering to the (usually dumb) fans is in line with putting marketability over quality as a priority, an approach that gets you absolute garbage like Mega Evolution, Z-Moves and a talking 'dex.

That's not to say it isn't good to solicit ideas from fans, for consideration, and you're right to point out that they seem to be very slow to make simple changes.

 

[The Faz]

That's how it should be. They shouldn't do anything because fans ask for it, but because it's actually the best thing to do (as they see it). Catering to the (usually dumb) fans is in line with putting marketability over quality as a priority, an approach that gets you absolute garbage like Mega Evolution, Z-Moves and a talking 'dex.

That's not to say it isn't good to solicit ideas from fans, for consideration, and you're right to point out that they seem to be very slow to make simple changes.

Mega Evolution, Z-Moves and the Rotom Dex arent garbage, and these things ARE the fans fault. Heres my theory:
Y´know, a lot of pokemons when released were begging for an evolution, like misdreavus, so the next gen they could give him an evolution - the cross-gen evolutions. But the fans started disliking it on gen 4 (where they added some pre-evolutions), so they didnt add any to BW.
But they ended up stuck with a lot of pokemons that was planed to had an evolution, but they cant add because the fans wouldnt like.
So they added Mega-Evolutions to fix the problem, and they added some more popular pokemons, like Garchomp and Lucario, because the fans "would like it".
This explains why some pokemons that arent popular got some, like Kangashan, Pinsir, Ampharos, Mawile, Manectrick, Medicham, Bannet, Absol (remember, this pokémon was added in gen 4, so they still were thinking about Cross-Generation Evolutions.) and Abomasnow (also gen 4).
Why do you think these pokemons were given megas? All these pokemons are with a design more "simple" if compared to others final evolutions.
And most of they are from an evolutionary line with 2 or no evolution at all. This is just my theory on it. And the Rotom-Dex is a great thing, isnt garbage.

 

[Siggu]

But... you didn't actually need any HMs to complete B/W except Cut that one time to get to the Dreamyard?? So saying "you still need to complete the game with them" is actually inaccurate in this case. You can remove them earlier and they're not required, seems fair to me.

BW had the right approach with HMs. Teach the player that HMs exist, then leave them for bonus areas.

Unfortunately, in BW2 that was already dropped.

 

[Pikachu315111]

I'd take those dancing guys and random rocks or bushes over this bs any day.

Best part about this road block is that at night the windows are still lit up. Doesn't look like a blackout to me. Actually, that image also shows a problem with this excuse: THE NPCS ARE WALKING PAST HIM!

Honestly, I don't get why they did this. Like if they don't want you challenging the Gym or having access to the other gate just have them closed. Why cut off more than half the city? If anything it was a chance to promise more to come, like shops having good but limited items/services which makes you interested in coming back to it when you officially visit it the 2nd time (when you can challenge the Gym) or 3rd visit/post game. I'd also have the Looker Missions taking place episodically but that's going into a different discussion so let's move on.

False. Play pokemon mystery dungeon and you know what I am talking about.

Gen 4, one of the greatest tracks from PmdExplorers

But that's for Pokemon Mystery Dungeon, not the main series. If you want memorable main Gen IV music there's the notable battle themes (Pearl, Cyrus, Cynthia, Giratina, Frontier Brain), Game Corner, & Distortion World. And listening through the City/Town & Route music, once I hear them start playing I remember them. Yeah, they're HEAVY on the synth, but many are catchy and they general have a different feel from each other. It's also the gen that introduced Looker's theme.

That's how it should be. They shouldn't do anything because fans ask for it, but because it's actually the best thing to do (as they see it). Catering to the (usually dumb) fans is in line with putting marketability over quality as a priority, an approach that gets you absolute garbage like Mega Evolution, Z-Moves and a talking 'dex.

That's not to say it isn't good to solicit ideas from fans, for consideration, and you're right to point out that they seem to be very slow to make simple changes.

Actually the main issue isn't the fans wanting GF to make something catering to them, a lot of the time it's they want GF to KEEP a liked feature or saying GF did it better previously (or aren't giving it much attention any more). Walking Pokemon, Poketch, DexNav, Join Avenue & PSS better than Festival Plaza, ignoring Mega in favor of Z-Moves, etc..