The Double Battle Metagame (GBU)

soul_survivor

VGCPL Champion
I feel like I should practice using my Autumn friendly team, but I don't want to get match with a actual gbu team, and then have to forget about what I do vs vgc 11 teams, and battle a whole new set of strategies. I feel anyway vgc is more important than a wifi tournament, and I'm a person that see's a strategy, and I'm like must....test.....strategy. Though I guess this is why most of my teams last 30-50 battles, sometimes less than 10.
 
and I'm a person that see's a strategy, and I'm like must....test.....strategy.
This is very often the impetus for a new team of mine. It's probably true for many people.

My teams used to last a while. I remember how many matches most of mine lasted... The first team I used was for about 50 battles, the second for about 60, the third for just over 200, the fourth (an amalgam of VGC2011 Pokemon that I switched around a lot) for 170-180, then a poor team that went almost half-and-half in wins/losses for ~20 matches, then another that netted a little over 100 straight wins, then it gets kind of confusing. The next 200 wins were over about ten teams, and I don't think anyone wants to hear all that (if they've even wanted to hear all this).

There are a crapload of losses mixed in there too, and a number of D/Cs slightly bigger than the number underneath this post, but I remember the "eras" by how many wins I had.
 

soul_survivor

VGCPL Champion
I just feel theres 1000 ideas and I can only choose 1 haha. I mean I get ideas from ANYWHERE. I had a earlier post about encore infernape. I thought of that as soon as I was in the battle subway, and I got encored into a fake out, and I was like woah this is amazing haha. Though my most successful team, I always try to revamp like im tryna do right now.
 
I just had a very interesting experience. I've been running a team centered around Sableye for a little while and earlier today I encountered a guy with 24 wins. He was running a rain team, nothing very surprising on it. What followed was a very weird, edge-of-your-seat type of battle. I got haxed pretty bad early and thought for sure I was going to lose, and then JUST the right things happened that I was able to win. It's hard to express how thrilling it was. I should have saved the battle.

Just now, I encountered the same guy, with 30 wins now, and you know what? One of his Pokemon had been replaced by Sableye. ...I'm about 90% sure that he brought it in because of his match with me, because Sableye's Swagger activating just in the nick of time and Will-o-Wisp hitting right when it needed to was so crucial to the match. This battle was a little simpler, nothing outstanding.

Seeing that Sableye in his roster, though, was the highlight of my day and I laughed audibly. Also, while I won't say his ingame name since I don't know if he'd want that, if you're the guy I battled: Thank you very much for respectfully forfeiting instead of disconnecting on me. I really do appreciate that.
 

soul_survivor

VGCPL Champion
Hah, that'd be cool seeing that though i've been running farely standard stuff recently.

Hah I remember this jp player with a ign of ------ or _____. Our first battle we were both in the 1500's in rating and he ran a farely standard tailwind team, and I won. Our next battle would be the next day and he ran a more efficient tailwind team, bug I still manage to win barely. 2 days later I battle the same guy(now he's at 1810), and I'm using my same team frim the 2nd battle, but from what I saw in team preview I was expecting goodstuff. He led with a scarf volcarana and used rage powder and easily set up trickroom. This would be my First ever match where I won 0-0, with my ferrathorn's iron barb taking his escaviler out on his last megahorn. This video is in this thread when I said what happens when two players have no more usable mons. Our final match which would happen a week later with him at a 1964 rating would be probably my closest match ever and AGAIN i end up winning 0-0 after it was my emboar vs his/her infernape. the players nape used close combat boosted by LO, leaving emboar at a bare 5% to where I hammer arm nape, and my own LO finishes me. I wonder what would happen if I was to battle him again haha.
 

Sprocket

P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
I saw the most bizarre doubles team involving Gengar using Trick Room. It actually threw me for a loop. The full team used against me was Amoongus, Infernape, Gengar, Machamp.

Lately the vast majority of teams are VGC2011 teams, which admittedly are still damn potent even against the full Pokedex.
 
I saw the most bizarre doubles team involving Gengar using Trick Room. It actually threw me for a loop. The full team used against me was Amoongus, Infernape, Gengar, Machamp.

Lately the vast majority of teams are VGC2011 teams, which admittedly are still damn potent even against the full Pokedex.
Yeah, I agree. I was surprised when I was once told that Unova Pokemon were just "not that good" in general play.

I ran across another person that I, in my vanity, believe adopted a Sableye after a match with me. I saw it use Gravity, and my mind went aflame with ideas for teams. How did I not notice it when I was making my Sableye?! It didn't occur to me until after the match that, wait, isn't Gravity a HGSS tutor move? Sure enough, it was; on a Prankster Sableye, no less.

I remembered too that I had seen it in a Master Ball, and it had Recover. So it was both a DW-ability Pokemon with a 4th Gen-only move, and caught in a Master Ball with an egg move. I knew about things like Aqua Jet + Belly Drum Azumarill, but I never thought I'd see anything threatening in Doubles from a pseudo-legit hack (I don't know what else to call it). I didn't disconnect on him because he was still a skillful player, and because he at least was effective using his illegal moveset/ability combination on the field (He used it in tandem with things like Hypnosis and Hydro Pump). It could be that people who hack their team into existence so frequently start to just pick their moves without considering that they might be illegal together when they make a given Pokemon.
 

Sprocket

P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
I ran across another person that I, in my vanity, believe adopted a Sableye after a match with me. I saw it use Gravity, and my mind went aflame with ideas for teams. How did I not notice it when I was making my Sableye?! It didn't occur to me until after the match that, wait, isn't Gravity a HGSS tutor move? Sure enough, it was; on a Prankster Sableye, no less.
It's definitely an illegal combination. But still, if it were a legal combination, holy crap that would be awesome.

What about made me pull my hair out was a Minimize Chansey user with a Follow Me Togekiss, and two partners that used Psych Up.
 

Sprocket

P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
I'm trying to figure out what Dragonite's "niche" is in this metagame. Thus far the only one I've come up with is Inner Focus versus Fake Out leads, but then it means it's bait for other dragons, or ice attacks. On the other hand Multiscale can take almost any hit at full health, but is prone to Fake Out and flinching, and Multiscale is useless once it takes even a little bit of damage. So it's sort of a no-win scenario for Dragonite in doubles.

Dragonite can't take Rock Slide as well as any other dragon either. True Salamence is also weak to it, but it can also use Intimidate to weaken the damage.

Which explains why I rarely see Dragonite at all in doubles, and why this meta is dominated by other dragons instead.

Thoughts?
 

soul_survivor

VGCPL Champion
Dragonite to me is virtually useless. You want a special attacker, latios outclasses it. Want a physical one, oh wait theres garchomp, and mixed is salamememce. But wait Drago has that multi-scale ability. It would be good ya know if there wasn't TWO pokemon on the field. I mean it can abuse hurricane and thunder in rain, but other than that its outclassed. Though it does have extreme speed.
 

Sprocket

P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
That's pretty much the same conclusion I came up with, soul_survivor.

Extremespeed is nice at least, but that's about it.
 

cosmicexplorer

pewpewpew
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
It's impossible to OHKO with Multi-Scale active outside of strong Ice-type attacks, which is basically limited to Abomasnow's Blizzard, and Fire Punch / Flamethrower OHKOes Aboma. It can take Latios's Life Orb Dragon Pulse, and even Draco Meteor with some investment. That's a huge advantage over Garchomp, which basically has to choose between Yache or Haban if it wants to survive either attack. In addition, it has excellent base Attack and Special Attack. Its combination of power and bulk, especially with Multi-Scale active, makes it easily viable.
 

soul_survivor

VGCPL Champion
yea I know its pretty much impossible to ohko him, but in doubles theres 2 pokemon, and multi-hitting moves are everywhere. Usually abama's in tr allowing him to hit 1st, but theres always the partner pokemon. in 1v1 situations gg, but in 2v2, or 1v2 even with multiscale its pretty darn hard to survive.



Also I just had a odd battle, and began thinking of tailwind + trickroom. I believe its called fast room, but I never thought it can be 2 effective. I just had a crazy-good battle and am now thinking about testing1. Heres the bv of me vsing it:

bv:69-42830-63642
 
I'm inclined to agree that Dragonite, in spite of its ability, isn't as profound in Doubles as in Singles. Its boon in the virtual absence of entry hazards is somewhat negated by its lack of heavy artillery; the best teams I've seen it on are rain teams, utilizing its very "meh" SpA stat better than its Atk.

I haven't used it in every scenario, but when I used it on a paralysis-centered team, it just didn't do much for me. It can Thunder Wave the enemy, but then what? Even in Doubles, the Dragon type offensively is best in a situation when a very powerful attack can be fired off and faces only Steel to resist it. Yet Outrage is about out of the question, and Dragon Dance is often a wasted turn; Dragonite can't really accrue the momentum that it could in Singles with just Dragon Claw. It too has a hard time finding good coverage while taking a support role, in which it's outclassed anyway.

It still has things going for it, of course. The presence of Inner Focus as its ordinary ability means that, unless the foe can read you well, he will be hesitant to Fake Out Dragonite, meaning your Multiscale will often remain unbroken from that attack. It has a diverse movepool too, whether or not it can be used to its fullest in Doubles.

I also agree that Garchomp isn't much better in Doubles either. It can't use Outrage any better than Dragonite can, and it won't be KOing Dragon-types (Common ones, like Latios/Latios/Kingdra) with Dragon Claw at its Spe (And it won't be doing enough neutrally). And, while some people think Earthquake was just absolutely MADE for Doubles, it's actually very dangerous and, in my experience, it seldom is worth Protecting with the ally-slash-having a Ground-immune ally to hit both of the foes, especially since 75% of the time at least one of them won't be taking more damage from Earthquake than he would if your other Pokemon had attacked (Assuming it Protected).

If someone could give me a good account of Dragonite's performance I'd change my mind. As it is, it certainly isn't bad. It's just that, usually, I find it being "excess fat" that I have to trim to make the party more efficient.
 

Solace

royal flush
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Dragonite's a really cool Pokemon, but it requires some support to do what it needs to do.

Cloud Nine support is big for Dragonite against damaging weathers, Quick Guard support for Fake Out, among other things. Sure it's a bit difficult, but well played Multiscale Dnite can be quite potent.

Once I finish teaching moves to mine I'll show a battle video and that should hopefully change everyone's mind :P
 
I saw a neat team today.

Leads:

Persian and Weavile

Other Two:

Murkrow and Swoobat

The swoobat had the simple ability. Persian and Weavile Swaggered my pokes. Murkrow used Attract and other Prankster trolling moves. Swoobat ame in and used Psych up. Persian got in some Screeches and Swoobat sweeped with Heart Stamp. It was a cool combo but Swoobat having Simple is illegal atm. I tried the same strategy with a Latias with Psych Up for surprise factor and lost pretty badly. It's easy to break the strategy once you know what I'm doing.

I think I'm going to try a rain team? I don't know. I'm really terrible at competitive battling and I want to try something unconventional but no luck so far.
 

Sprocket

P(n) = 1 - (1 - P(1))^n
Wish the dude didn't disconnect so I could have saved a battle video, but I had an epic 17 minute doubles match with some japanese dude consisting of:

My team: Gallade, Amoonguss, Metagross, Gastrodon
His team: Sableye, Whimsicott, Tyranitar, Cresselia

He sure as hell didn't expect my Amoonguss to use Clear Smog, nor my Gallade to carry Trick Room :P
 

soul_survivor

VGCPL Champion
I've been working on a odd core for goodstuff for a couple of months now to ladder up.

Its pretty much in summary DGPF(dark, ghost, psychic, fighting core). Its a odd core when I 1st experimented with it, but its synergy i noted is amazing. My current core works around sash weaville,gem latios, scarfed chandelure, and chople terrakion. Then of course I still have two spots on my team just being used as counters or add to my synergy like metagross who worked as a excellent non-ghost trickroomer counter who benefited from my weaville using feint and then exploded, or chandy's useful resistance to normal. Now I just had another spot and teched in ludicolo for drizzle encounters.

My previous core using it was bulky paralysis team with dark gem Krookodile, gem hitmontop, and musharna(no ghost here.) I guess the team works because they cover each other's weaknesses. The only hard counter I ever faced was scarf hydreigon, and how common is that.

My question now is have anyone else ever experiment with a core they call their own?
 
A long overdue answer, but anyway: I used, for a while, Sableye as a core. I had a good bout of battles one night which led me to believe that I had a very good team centered around it, ignoring the slowly encroaching evidence to the contrary when I would go 50/50 in wins/losses for days afterwards.

I think some people like me need to have cores or themes to their teams in order to feel like it's going somewhere or has a "plot;" otherwise we have a hard time knowing where to start when teambuilding or how to make adjustments once done, since we don't feel like the team is an organism, just a bunch of disconnected ideas. The inclusion of cores makes it so that the player only allows himself to change a small part of the team and not its essence; for people with short attention spans, this makes it much, much easier, because we aren't given as big a puzzle to assemble.

I can't really battle on the GBU right now until the city of Jackson gets its act together, but I would like to hear about things that people notice or use in regards to what soul survivor asked, about cores. Do you think successful teams have a "plot?" Are more intelligent players able to keep their whole team in their mind at once, without having to layer it like a story? Are these even accurate parameters to judge the structure of a team?

EDIT: What do y'all think the impact of any given Pokemon of the first 493 will/would be in the Double Battle GBU metagame, if it got its DW ability in the voting contest? What do you think of the possibility of Ditto, Breloom, Zapdos, etc. would be? Some of these aren't very likely to win, but I'd like to know what you think.
 

soul_survivor

VGCPL Champion
What do y'all think the impact of any given Pokemon of the first 493 will/would be in the Double Battle GBU metagame, if it got its DW ability in the voting contest? What do you think of the possibility of Ditto, Breloom, Zapdos, etc. would be? Some of these aren't very likely to win, but I'd like to know what you think.
While there are many I personally like I would've loved to see underappreciated pokemon get there DW abilities.

Like Serperior for example. When thats ever released I would love to use fakeout+leafstorm for the instant 2+.

Then theirs typlosion. Imagine under the sun getting a flashfire boost and a firegem eruption out. GG

I'd also like techniloom. I mean a powerful mach punch. Bullet seed as a grass attack, and it has spore for support.


Another one is intimidate scrafty. Then it'll be competition on top vs scrafty. I'd love both on my team XD.


Then of course theres zapdos. He'll be the rain powerhouse, and with him I see no need to have thunderus in rain.

Other notables off the top of my head include waterabsorb suicune, and sheerforce Feraligatr. Though These are all good, and probably won't be released for months. I wanna get my hand on them as soon as there released.
 
I never thought of Contrary Serperior in Doubles, but you make a good point. Fake Out + Leaf Storm sounds great; a Grass Gem maybe to give it fantastic first-turn power, after which it's stronger than it was with the item on.

Even outside of Ditto's functionality, I'd like to use it because I'd like to see what kind of movesets/EVs people use on their GBU Pokemon.

Off of that topic, if anyone has actually been able to soft reset/RNG a good one in Entralink, has anyone gotten good use out of Unburden Hitmonlee? It seems like it would be nice to outspeed Scarf and Tailwind users, although its incredible physical frailness means it falls to priority easily. I've been a Hitmonlee > Hitmonchan person since about the day Red and Blue came out, so I'm eager to hear anything good in its regard.
 
I also f'ing LOVE Hitmonlee. I've been using this set since the day I got my first DW Tyrogue :)

Hitmonlee @Normal Gem
Unburden
Adamant
EV's: 252 atk, 252 spe, 6 hp
Close Combat
Fake Out
Rock Slide
Protect/Helping Hand/Wide Guard/Feint

Just plain awesome. Use Fake Out first turn, powered by Normal Gem, insta-unburden, and then sweep or assist.
I've been playing around with the fourth slot for like a week, and I'm pretty comfortable with Feint, but Helping Hand has proven itself really useful when Lee is about to be KO'ed, and Wide Guard and Protect are awesome doubles moves, so.....yeah.
 
I wish Serperior with Contrary was actually legal I stay away from non released stuff. Would it even be allowed on GBU? Hitmontop is always annoying when I am considering my team, and I wanted to know, is Intimidate or Technician more popular? or steadfast, people are bound to be lured into trying to FO Hitmontop but the other two are just so much better
 
~Golden Emp said:
I also f'ing LOVE Hitmonlee. I've been using this set since the day I got my first DW Tyrogue :)

Hitmonlee @Normal Gem
Unburden
Adamant
EV's: 252 atk, 252 spe, 6 hp
Close Combat
Fake Out
Rock Slide
Protect/Helping Hand/Wide Guard/Feint

Just plain awesome. Use Fake Out first turn, powered by Normal Gem, insta-unburden, and then sweep or assist.
I've been playing around with the fourth slot for like a week, and I'm pretty comfortable with Feint, but Helping Hand has proven itself really useful when Lee is about to be KO'ed, and Wide Guard and Protect are awesome doubles moves, so.....yeah.
This is more or less what I expected out of Hitmonlee. While I see evidence of Wide Guard being a useful move, I think it is less suited to a Pokemon that will be, at this point in the battle, ridiculously faster than everything else; I could only see it being useful in a scenario where your other, non-Hitmonlee Pokemon was both slow AND at the time very important, so that Hitmonlee blocking an incoming wide-attack would allow that other Pokemon to dodge it and KO the opponent(s). I'm glad to hear it has been useful, though, one way or the other.

Drifblim said:
I wish Serperior with Contrary was actually legal I stay away from non released stuff. Would it even be allowed on GBU? Hitmontop is always annoying when I am considering my team, and I wanted to know, is Intimidate or Technician more popular? or steadfast, people are bound to be lured into trying to FO Hitmontop but the other two are just so much better
Pokemon with unreleased abilities are not legal on the GBU; I would have encountered hundreds of Chandelures if they were. I definitely see more Intimidate Hitmontops, though I've also heard people make a case for Technician.

If the only way to get a high-quality Tyrogue is through Entralink abuse (and I believe it is), it's very unlikely that people will try to use Steadfast Hitmontop. It's too impractical to get one just for that ability. Hitmonlee has a pretty decent ability, so I could see someone perhaps going through the trouble to try and get one for it.
 

soul_survivor

VGCPL Champion
I also f'ing LOVE Hitmonlee. I've been using this set since the day I got my first DW Tyrogue :)

Hitmonlee @Normal Gem
Unburden
Adamant
EV's: 252 atk, 252 spe, 6 hp
Close Combat
Fake Out
Rock Slide
Protect/Helping Hand/Wide Guard/Feint

Just plain awesome. Use Fake Out first turn, powered by Normal Gem, insta-unburden, and then sweep or assist.
I've been playing around with the fourth slot for like a week, and I'm pretty comfortable with Feint, but Helping Hand has proven itself really useful when Lee is about to be KO'ed, and Wide Guard and Protect are awesome doubles moves, so.....yeah.
Ah ze hitmonlee. I actual don't know where I stand on him:

Cons:
-He gets stopped by double protect which means he won't get that boost

-he gets beat by faster fakeouters which stop his gameplan

-Obviously get hurt vs trickroom

-low defense

-Intimidate stall or eject button top is probably the best counter
as w/o attack he's useless.

Pros:

-Good synergy and can fit in my Dark-fight-psychic core.

-Speed can help goodstuff vs tailwind, and weather boosters

-Substi Hydreigon makes a amazing partner as you fakeout a threat, and sub up. Not to mention fighting+dark has perfect coverage.

-Can hurt many common things like terrakion, abamasnow, ttar, and chandy to name a few.

-Nice atk stat.

-Can work with ttar to perform again the fight+dark combo

-Plethora of support in fakeout,feint,wideguard and HH. Though I'd go with fakeout and detect as he won't be able to take ever hit.

-Thats about it



Lee imo in ranking out of all pokemon definitely top50-70.*


*All of this is done through my theory and knowledge of the meta. So Im probably not on point.



Also on another note I've been running lanturn(not as a gimmick either). My team revolves around lanturn,rotom-g,garchomp, and toxicroak and I have alot of AOE moves with synergy. For example Lanturn can surf to heal up croak, whilst it can also Receive hp by sitrus or rotoms discharge. Rotom resist every Attack all opponents from lanturn and chomp can soak up discharges. Then of course my back ups are scizor, and toed for various situations.

Though the reason I posted my team is because its actually undefeated so far, and I've moved pretty far up the gbu ladder. Anyone got suggestions after this very quick-rundown?
 

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