kilometerman
Banned deucer.
Epic my manWrong.
Epic my manWrong.
Epic as thinking that roar/whirlwind, dark void, scald, focus blast, will-o-wisp, toxic, precipice miss, and many more moves are uncompetitive.Epic my man
there are much more situations where a swagger confusion hit could lose a game without previous plays and strategies affecting the outcome than there are situations where a toxic miss could do the same. they're not really comparableEpic as thinking that roar/whirlwind, dark void, scald, focus blast, will-o-wisp, toxic, precipice miss, and many more moves are uncompetitive.
10.8% chance vs 10% chancethere are much more situations where a swagger confusion hit could lose a game without previous plays and strategies affecting the outcome than there are situations where a toxic miss could do the same. they're not really comparable
The difference between missing a Pblades and losing the game and getting a swagger hit is that you choose to put non-100% acc moves on your mons when building, so that RNG fluke is your own fault. But it's not your fault and it doesn't reflect your skill as a player if you get a Swagger confusion hit.10.8% chance vs 10% chance
Seems very comparable.
toAny move that relies on an RNG roll in order to decide or win 1v1s or games is noncompetitive by nature
The answer is simple. RNG is not inherently uncompetitive. Sure, swagger may be unpleasant to play against, however it's simply not uncompetitive. I have outlined the moves that would be considered as uncompetitive if we followed your logic in previous post.Obviously Pokemon is an RNG-heavy game but I don't understand why we wouldn't try and limit the game-breaking capabilities of RNG whenever possible, especially in a comp metagame where we want skill to be the deciding factor in winning and losing games.
"Pokemon is a gambling game" - ChaosLordThe difference between missing a Pblades and losing the game and getting a swagger hit is that you choose to put non-100% acc moves on your mons when building, so that RNG fluke is your own fault. But it's not your fault and it doesn't reflect your skill as a player if you get a Swagger confusion hit.
Obviously Pokemon is an RNG-heavy game but I don't understand why we wouldn't try and limit the game-breaking capabilities of RNG whenever possible, especially in a comp metagame where we want skill to be the deciding factor in winning and losing games.
Like I said earlier the difference is that a player chooses to put moves like pblades and toxic on their mons, therefore when that move misses it is no one's fault but the player's. Having a move like Swagger that uses a RNG roll to decide the difference between a loss and a win is very different. If you want to make comparisons with Swagger to other moves, why don't we talk about one-hit KO moves? Sheer Cold is in the same ballpark as Swagger in that you're banking an entire 1v1 encounter on a 1 in 3 roll.Welcome to Ubers tiering policy.
The only direction is to ban uncompetitive elements of the game.
You went from this
to
The answer is simple. RNG is not inherently uncompetitive. Sure, swagger may be unpleasant to play against, however it's simply not uncompetitive. I have outlined the moves that would be considered as uncompetitive if we followed your logic in previous post.
Like I said above yes Pokemon is an RNG-heavy game but this is a competitive meta so we should take steps to make sure player skill trumps RNG whenever possible."Pokemon is a gambling game" - ChaosLord
also, please do not imply that swagger takes no skill. it takes a tremendous amount of planning, set up, and skill to use such a move
You don't even understand how weak swagger is. Comparing swagger to OHKO is laughable.Like I said earlier the difference is that a player chooses to put moves like pblades and toxic on their mons, therefore when that move misses it is no one's fault but the player's. Having a move like Swagger that uses a RNG roll to decide the difference between a loss and a win is very different. If you want to make comparisons with Swagger to other moves, why don't we talk about one-hit KO moves? Sheer Cold is in the same ballpark as Swagger in that you're banking an entire 1v1 encounter on a 1 in 3 roll.
And also I touched on this a little bit before but I wanted to clarify. A good player will try their hardest to make plays so that entire games won't be decided on a pblades miss or scald burn. Both of those moves are avoidable by playinh well. A good player cannot think ahead and make plays in terms of a Swagger confusion hit, since its the opponent's mon and not his.
Like I said above yes Pokemon is an RNG-heavy game but this is a competitive meta so we should take steps to make sure player skill trumps RNG whenever possible.
And it doesn't take skill to click a 1 in 3 chance roll to win a 1v1, it is a big risk but that does not constitute skill.
Basically, we obviously care about what can potentially add or detract to the experience of playing this metagame. The collateral damage of keeping Swagger banned is 0, outside of further soiling our reputation as the tier that doesn't ban things. The potential risk of unbanning it is that we add more volatility in the game and down the line thimo makes a SwagPlay team and some noob cheeses the shit out of some top player with it. If we think that the risk is negligible, then we should just hurry up and unban Swagger.2. DryPass is nonexistent in Ubers - the only Pokemon that can make use of such a strategy is Mega Mawile, which is frankly a terrible Pokemon in the metagame. Thus, collateral damage from banning the move Baton Pass is also nonexistent.
I think it's due to the bitter taste the Shadow Tag suspect left in our mouths.Why don't we suspect tho
Isn't that all the more reason to do one? I mean it wouldn't be a Smogon™ metagame without suspect tests, so it makes sense that we should "remind" ourselves of the process on something rather insignificant like thisI think it's due to the bitter taste the Shadow Tag suspect left in our mouths.
I still find it funny that the last suspect that we've done was the Shadow Tag suspect which resulted in the tier leaders rigging the suspect. After this, the community was no longer allowed to vote and the tier leaders have complete control over this meta's rule set.I think it's due to the bitter taste the Shadow Tag suspect left in our mouths.
You dare doubt the divine power and knowledge of Daddy Smogon™? The community will only be able to make decisions on their meta if the all-knowing Smogon™ auth allows them to!I still find it funny that the last suspect that we've done was the Shadow Tag suspect which resulted in the tier leaders rigging the suspect. After this, the community was no longer allowed to vote and the tier leaders have complete control over this meta's rule set.
EDIT: my original post made no sense
This would be enough to quick unban it tbh.Having a higher threshold than OU in this case is silly as well.
You cant think like that in pokémon environment + isnt stall one of the most skill-involved playstyle ?The more RNG+stall you introduce the less skill is going to be the deciding factor in winning games
First off tf do you mean by "intended purpose" and how does relegating every decision to a council of 6 people help that? Especially considering the fact that the current Ubers auth has shown that they use personal bias in their decision making and break rules. Even if the council was perfect it wouldn't be the best system considering that at the end of the day people are human and humans make mistakes and bad decisions, sometimes purposefully. For example the council members play in tours, if they were having a problem facing Gothitelle than they might go ahead and ban Shadow Tag, without having any sort of dissenting opinion or other point of view. The reason that suspect tests exist is to get opinions and votes from both sides of the argument, that way the end decision is the least biased as possible.I disagree, dictatorship is the best way to ensure that a tier doesn't drift from its intended purpose. If ubers was a democracy, then primal groudon and xern would have been sent to AG long time ago.
It has been a tier since the Mega Rayquaza ban, and should be treated as such. Insisting that Ubers shouldn't be subject to suspect tests and community decisions is nothing more than auth wanting to keep power and making the tier into more of an echo-chamber.The point is that ubers historically doesnt work this way and shouldnt be considered as a tier as the others are by essence. I guess a lot of ppl could explain it better than me
How is saying "ubers is a smogon tier and it should therefore be treated as such" a dead argument? And why is it that Ubers "doesn't need" community-led decisisions when every other tier (including tiers with MUCH smaller communities than uber's) needs them?I dont see the point between this statement and the thread. Ubers work this way and no one has reason to complain about council wanting power or whatever which is a kinda dead argument.
I believe ubers doesnt need a whole community to decide while council is doing a good work.