Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[ninth]

Many top players have come out and expressed their dissatisfaction with the state of affairs in SV OU. Every time I open TrainerAid there's an SPL starter saying "god I can't wait until I don't have to play this anymore" and that's probably not a good sign. The vibes are at a low point now that the freshness of the new meta has begun to wear off. As we know, if a metagame acquires bad vibes, it's pretty much cooked.

What we need is a ritual sacrifice which can make people feel better about the meta, and I believe that sacrifice should be Volcarona. Volcarona is the embodiment of everything that many players hate about this gen:

- User of defensive Tera and Quiver Dance to spiral out of control in one turn
- Notoriously matchup-dependent even before SV
- Flame Body
- Premier Tera Blast abuser to fill holes in its coverage
- This isn't really relevant but Fiery Dance is a completely unserious move lol 50% is such a silly roll for both parties involved

Are all of these attributes enough to make it broken? I'm not qualified to say if it is or isn't. But I think we should still tie it to a pyre and set it ablaze, because people aren't big on any of the attributes above and this one guy has all of them. This is a sinful and duplicitous mon that spits in the face of honest setup sweepers. It is not a new mon: we have been seeing the moth do the same thing for over a decade, and now it's gotten even better at being groan-inducing.

Nothing else on the table would be a sufficient sacrifice. People love Ogerpon for just being the cutest darn thing ingame, and also people really hate Alomomola. Tera Blast would just result in 40 pages of semantic arguments followed by a DNB anyways. Any kind of Tera or kokoloko action is dead in the water unless someone on here can invent a time machine — that kind of change to the status quo, this far into the lifespan of the game, would never get anywhere near enough support.

Meanwhile, Volcarona is an unsettling moth with kind of weird proportions and attributes that people generally despise. It's an easy scapegoat for the meta. I recognize that this analysis is almost entirely vibes-based: however, if you want to improve the vibes of the meta as a whole, there's no better target than Volcarona.

 

[awyp]

volc is kinda disgusting of a mon and I think maturity is realizing what the council did with the quickban in the summer was the right decision.

 

[EpicGuy321]

Hey chat! Weather’s funny out right now. I just got a bunch of snow! Anyway, I’m back with a cool new set, after giving up on Grass Knot Kingambit and just running SD instead.



Puff (Dragonite) (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Fire Punch
- Outrage

Tera Fire grants you a burn immunity, allowing you to avoid punishment from Volcarona or the occasional Moltres. It also powers up Fire Punch, good for that STUPID metal bird (). Tera Fire also resists Ice, flipping the Kyurem matchup and allowing you to OHKO with Outrage. Speaking of Outrage, at +1 it comfortably 2HKO’s Garganacl even after Lefties Protect, and it 3HKOs Dondozo after Stealth Rocks, beating the sleeping giant.

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Garganacl: 211-250 (52.2 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 144-171 (28.5 - 33.9%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Tera Fire Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ice Kyurem: 452-534 (115.6 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Tera Fire Dragonite Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 288-342 (72.1 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Feel free to use this set and tell me how it goes.

after more testing, I can confirm this set is actually pretty bad. Outrage locking you in sucks so much, and then when Skarm switches in for free, you tera fire and click Fire Punch just to hit yourself in confusion and let Skarm get back to full.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

volc is kinda disgusting of a mon and I think maturity is realizing what the council did with the quickban in the summer was the right decision.

man i remember when people were calling for actual, physical blood to be spilled over that shit and i was like the only one defending the decision. if anything, they didn't ban enough during that slate—sneasler barely dodged a qb that would have saved everyone a lot of trouble in the long run

 

[Heatranator]

man i remember when people were calling for actual, physical blood to be spilled over that shit and i was like the only one defending the decision

I think honestly that if there was more communication about the fact that they were thinking of quickbanning volc, then everything would have been alright.
But looking back on it, it was 100% the right decision, I remember the days when the matchup moth wasn't constraining the teambuilder. It feels like even if I pack both a heatran and a dachsbun, it could still bullshit its way through both of them. It doesn't seem as bad as some other things, that's why it was discussed less, but I'd say its even more bs.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I remember the days when the matchup moth wasn't constraining the teambuilder.

you've been here since gen 4?

 

[Heatranator]

you've been here since gen 4?

Fun fact, I started playing in Gen 8. Though to be fair, I have played Gen 4 OU a decent amount. (funnily enough, also trying out agility empoloen in RU lmao)

 

[veti]

Do Not Ban.
​

I personally think Volcarona is not at all broken, although I would appreciate a Flame Body (and Static!) ban off a basis of uncompetitiveness.

Counters

​

Volcarona does not have a limited amount of counterplay. The mons above alongside others like Ting-Lu, Blissey, Dragonite, and many bulky Pokemon with Teras such as Fire like Kingambit can all counter Volcarona, will talk about the checks (that lose to the uncompetitive Flame Body) below. Offensive teams are more limited in the number of counters but Volcarona can still be pressured to be unable to set up (especially if Flame Body is taken out of the picture) or revenge killed by certain mons.

Checks + Flame Body is actually the problem

​

Flame Body is an inherently uncompetitive ability that I think has no place in OU. Volcarona is the most notable Flame Body user though, and Flame Body heavily punishes checks like Tera Roaring Moon, Dragonite, and Rillaboom (checks if volc teras to water/ground/non resist + low hp) while giving it setup opportunities it should not have on mons like Tusk, Zamazenta, Meowscarada, Weavile, Kingambit, Physical Valiant and many others that could otherwise at minimum limit it to a single quiver dance. With Volcarona's Special Defense boosts it forces in these physical attackers and then 30% of the time effectively KO's them just for attacking Volcarona, which is very uncompetitive but not necessarily broken. The other mons are less relevant, however I think Flame Body is unhealthy on them as well, even if they can't use it to setup and win the game they still swing the game far too much with too little effort imo.

 

[Moyashi]

Volcarona does not have a limited amount of counterplay. The mons above alongside others like Ting-Lu, Blissey, Dragonite, and many bulky Pokemon with Teras such as Fire like Kingambit can all counter Volcarona, will talk about the checks (that lose to the uncompetitive Flame Body) below. Offensive teams are more limited in the number of counters but Volcarona can still be pressured to be unable to set up (especially if Flame Body is taken out of the picture) or revenge killed by certain mons.

glowking, dirge and clod lose to Tera ground Volc. TingLu can’t check it forever especially as Volc gets multiple chances often per game. Blissey is pretty much stall exclusive, Dragonige loses to Tera Dragon. And Gambit loses to Tera Ground (though late game sucker can maybe help).

Volc can realistically adapt and beat just about any counterplay and stay on top, it’s simply too hard to handle all its set possibilities.

 

[Baloor]

Do Not Ban.
​

I personally think Volcarona is not at all broken, although I would appreciate a Flame Body (and Static!) ban off a basis of uncompetitiveness.

Counters

​

Volcarona does not have a limited amount of counterplay. The mons above alongside others like Ting-Lu, Blissey, Dragonite, and many bulky Pokemon with Teras such as Fire like Kingambit can all counter Volcarona, will talk about the checks (that lose to the uncompetitive Flame Body) below. Offensive teams are more limited in the number of counters but Volcarona can still be pressured to be unable to set up (especially if Flame Body is taken out of the picture) or revenge killed by certain mons.

​

dirge is the most consistent in terms of flexibility and fitting on teams but has a hard time be healthy enough throughout the game so unless ur playing a set that literally cannot touch dirge there is a ton of micromanaging involved. slowking can threaten volc and stop it from setting up but again, not the most consistent thing and can be blown back if you are caught in a scenario where volc has to get a few qds. sub sets are also popular ish and it does absolutely nothing to those. clod is the best but very very niche, mostly being a stall pick, you shouldnt have issues with volc on stall anyway.

Checks + Flame Body is actually the problem

​

Flame Body is an inherently uncompetitive ability that I think has no place in OU. Volcarona is the most notable Flame Body user though, and Flame Body heavily punishes checks like Tera Roaring Moon, Dragonite, and Rillaboom (checks if volc teras to water/ground/non resist + low hp) while giving it setup opportunities it should not have on mons like Tusk, Zamazenta, Meowscarada, Weavile, Kingambit, Physical Valiant and many others that could otherwise at minimum limit it to a single quiver dance. With Volcarona's Special Defense boosts it forces in these physical attackers and then 30% of the time effectively KO's them just for attacking Volcarona, which is very uncompetitive but not necessarily broken. The other mons are less relevant, however I think Flame Body is unhealthy on them as well, even if they can't use it to setup and win the game they still swing the game far too much with too little effort imo.

no? this isn't gen8. latter two barely see usage, tran is niche and flamebody isnt its most popular ability. despite me being a moth hater, if anything flame body is a healthy in mitigating offensive threats such as zama. don't know how you conclude that this is the problem in this situation.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Volcarona does not have a limited amount of counterplay.

you're right! for it to have a limited amount of counterplay, it would need to have any amount in the first place, which it doesn't

 

[FayaWizard]

you're right! for it to have a limited amount of counterplay, it would need to have any amount in the first place, which it doesn't

Volc does have counterplay: you're never breaking Clodsire or Blissey, and you will struggle to break through certain checks depending on your set and tera of choice.

However, the fact that Volcarona can effectively pick what checks it (besides the two stall mons), is an issue. One worthy of a suspect? Maybe, though I'm still on the fence on it.

Also I'm still so confused why Tera Blast is on the chopping block it's really only an issue with Volcarona right now and that's because matchup moth does matchup moth things. In my mind it's comparable to Booster Energy: broken on a very few mons, but not really an issue anywhere else.

 

[Heatranator]

Volc does have counterplay: you're never breaking Clodsire or Blissey, and you will struggle to break through certain checks depending on your set and tera of choice.

However, the fact that Volcarona can effectively pick what checks it (besides the two stall mons), is an issue. One worthy of a suspect? Maybe, though I'm still on the fence on it.

Also I'm still so confused why Tera Blast is on the chopping block it's really only an issue with Volcarona right now and that's because matchup moth does matchup moth things. In my mind it's comparable to Booster Energy: broken on a very few mons, but not really an issue anywhere else.

252 SpA Tera Ground Volcarona Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 194-230 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Clodsire has to be very, very careful about coming in, at even 83% hp, it is always 2hit ko'd, which means that it is at best, a check.
Volc seems like a mon where it causes a lot of teambuilding strain, and doesn't have much defensive utility to it. Sure, it counters ice and grass types, but weavile isn't a problem, and it can't reliably beat kyurem due to draco ko'ing it from 65% range if HDB. For grasses, waterpon beats it, so that's no dice, meow and serp are mediocre, which means that rillaboom is the only relevant mon it checks. And rillaboom is far from a problem (unless you are ianlazerbeem). So why don't we just ban it? Seems like a good thing to do and nothing really loses.

 

[Anchor9]

Volc does have counterplay: you're never breaking Clodsire or Blissey, and you will struggle to break through certain checks depending on your set and tera of choice.

However, the fact that Volcarona can effectively pick what checks it (besides the two stall mons), is an issue. One worthy of a suspect? Maybe, though I'm still on the fence on it.

Also I'm still so confused why Tera Blast is on the chopping block it's really only an issue with Volcarona right now and that's because matchup moth does matchup moth things. In my mind it's comparable to Booster Energy: broken on a very few mons, but not really an issue anywhere else.

Wait till Tera Ghost becomes the new tech.

New York Times
Tera Ghost with Tera Blast! You beat Blissey, Heatran, AND Dragonite all in one set!

After thirty-seven years working in the back of a trailer in the middle of the Amazon Rainforest, Dr. Anchor9 discovered new Tera tech for Volcarano. When interviewed, he responded as quoted:

“It was worth all these years I spent toiling in my research trailer. They all called me mad. They said making a set to beat Heatran, Blissey, and Dragonite was impossible. But I’ve proved them wrong. Are you ready to see the chaos that will come in the meta after this announcement?”

The New York Times will keep close track on further developments of this story.

 

[Heatranator]

Wait till Tera Ghost becomes the new tech.

New York Times
Tera Ghost with Tera Blast! You beat Blissey, Heatran, AND Dragonite all in one set!

After thirty-seven years working in the back of a trailer in the middle of the Amazon Rainforest, Dr. Anchor9 discovered new Tera tech for Volcarano. When interviewed, he responded as quoted:

“It was worth all these years I spent toiling in my research trailer. They all called me mad. They said making a set to beat Heatran, Blissey, and Dragonite was impossible. But I’ve proved them wrong. Are you ready to see the chaos that will come in the meta after this announcement?”

The New York Times will keep close track on further developments of this story.

But isn't Dragonite a normal type? With multiscale it could take a hit or two and respond back with e-quake or ice spinner, while volc can't do anything with tera blast.

 

[MasterPlayer]

Have you guys tried Specially Defensive Flash Fire Fire Types with Tera Flying (and by this I mean not just Specially Defensive Heatran) to check Volcarona and see if some results can be achieved? I've been thinking of Kantonian Ninetales, since it speed ties Volcarona and has an impressive special bulk, but I also had Flareon in mind, since it being a Physical attacker that can't be burned and that also sports some decent special bulk could maybe give Volcarona some problems

 

[Anchor9]

But isn't Dragonite a normal type? With multiscale it could take a hit or two and respond back with e-quake or ice spinner, while volc can't do anything with tera blast.

First, Dragonite swaps in on the Quiver Dance. Then it Tera Normal Extreme Speeds, since it doesn’t expect Tera Ghost. That turn you Tera Ghost and take no damage while breaking Multiscale with Fiery Dance. After that, gg.

+1 252 SpA Tera Ghost Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Normal Dragonite: 202-238 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ghost Volcarona: 174-205 (55.9 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(You win this encounter since you will be faster)

 

[Heatranator]

First, Dragonite swaps in on the Quiver Dance. Then it Tera Normal Extreme Speeds, since it doesn’t expect Tera Ghost. That turn you Tera Ghost and take no damage while breaking Multiscale with Fiery Dance. After that, gg.

+1 252 SpA Tera Ghost Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Normal Dragonite: 202-238 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Ghost Volcarona: 174-205 (55.9 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

(You win this encounter since you will be faster)

Welp, now to use my tera normal Heatran tech.

 

[Bold School]

Have you guys tried Specially Defensive Flash Fire Fire Types with Tera Flying (and by this I mean not just Specially Defensive Heatran) to check Volcarona and see if some results can be achieved? I've been thinking of Kantonian Ninetales, since it speed ties Volcarona and has an impressive special bulk, but I also had Flareon in mind, since it being a Physical attacker that can't be burned and that also sports some decent special bulk could maybe give Volcarona some problems

The issue I see is you are targeting stuff like Tera Ground specifically. Tera Flying doesn't necesarrily work if it's Tera Dragon or something. Ninetails could maybe do something against Tera Water because of Drought.

The problem in general with running Flash Fire mons just for special defense is the powerful fire types we have are mostly physical besides Volc. Heatran is the main Flash Fire mon with balanced strong defenses and HP. I suppose something like Arcanine could maybe be worth a try. You get Flash Fire and maybe E-Speed.

I recently saw a Blunder video in my recommended feed where he seems to have made Coalossal work. Steam Engine could be a pretty funny anti-meta tech. Not that I know if he used this set. I didn't watch it. It could just be some random gimmick.

 

[Heatranator]

The issue I see is you are targeting stuff like Tera Ground specifically. Tera Flying doesn't necesarrily work if it's Tera Dragon or something. Ninetails could maybe do something against Tera Water because of Drought.

The problem in general with running Flash Fire mons just for special defense the powerful fire types we have are mostly physical besides Volc. Heatran is the main Flash Fire mon with balanced strong defenses and HP. I suppose something like Arcanine could maybe be worth a try. You get Flash Fire and maybe E-Speed.

I recently saw a Blunder video in my recommended feed where he seems to have made Coalossal work. Steam Engine could be a pretty funny anti-meta tech. Not that I know if he used this set. I didn't watch it. It could just be some random gimmick.

From what I heard, he sacked it like every time and it didn't do anything, which is like all the shit mons he uses.
Coalossal is an interesting mon with its ability and support movepool such as rapid spin, spikes and scald, but it's shit typing holds it back. If it had fire+ground, it could work. There could be a way to make it work, but it looks like something that you use because it's funny, not because it could contribute much to a battle.

 

[ianlazerbeem]

I personally have played both (some of you seem to have blocked the memory of DLC1 out, I have to say I'm kind of jealous) and would rather play a meta with Volcarona present. Without Volcarona, grassy terrain teams are way too powerful, essentially allowed to exist uncheckable, and are essentially the vast majority of teams used, not only in tournament but the ladder too. Volcarona being the single best Pokémon into Rillaboom helps prevent this, and even still Gterrain is making waves in the meta and was super popular in SPL. Imagine what the meta would be with the best counter banned. Iron Valiant and Kingambit, two very important mons to the meta, also lose a key piece of counterplay - remember in the Volcless days when everyone complained about those two? Without Volc the balance of the meta is thrown out of whack in extremely unsavory ways and for that reason I believe the tier would get a lot worse without it around. And before some clown says "uh that's broken checks broken, if something is broken when the check is banned we will deal with it later" but I don't particularly want to see an SV OU without Gambit or Valiant either. Revenge killing at that point is what, completely structured around pult and Zama? No, we can't go down that road again. Keep Volc legal.

If you believe the meta is almost fine, just ban Wellspring and we're good. If it's a mess and something big needs to change ban Ghold, or Tera. Let's not plunge the meta into chaos and disrepair again.

Flame Body is an inherently uncompetitive ability that I think has no place in OU. Volcarona is the most notable Flame Body user though, and Flame Body heavily punishes checks like Tera Roaring Moon, Dragonite, and Rillaboom (checks if volc teras to water/ground/non resist + low hp) while giving it setup opportunities it should not have on mons like Tusk, Zamazenta, Meowscarada, Weavile, Kingambit, Physical Valiant and many others that could otherwise at minimum limit it to a single quiver dance.

this is a good thing! We have so many bullshit offensive threats in SV OU that Volcarona being able to switch in on the contact move to disarm them is actually great and keeps the meta in a much healthier equilibrium!

 

[Heatranator]

Without Volcarona, grassy terrain teams are way too powerful, essentially allowed to exist uncheckable, and are essentially the vast majority of teams used, not only in tournament but the ladder too. Volcarona being the single best Pokémon into Rillaboom helps prevent this, and even still Gterrain is making waves in the meta and was super popular in SPL. Imagine what the meta would be with the best counter banned.

Uh, when the best mon to abuse g-terrain teams is hawlucha, yeah I don't think that g-terrain teams would be busted. Rillaboom is a great mon, but it has flaws that can be exploited, such as a overeliance on band to truly get the damage it wants, only alright speed if it doesn't use grassy glide and the fact that so many top mons are resistant to grass. If you want to see a time that is dominated by grassy terrain teams, that was when sneasler was allowed in the tier.
Furthermore, gambit is already somewhat problematic, I don't think it staying or leaving would prevent that. Gambit can still easily ko volc with sucker punch after an sd, so it isn't a good counter. It's at best a temporary measure of "oh shit, I guess I have nothing else". Iron valiant is nowhere near problematic, and volc can even be used by sd sets to setup, due to them carrying encore often.
But you probably won't listen to me since you will die on the hill that rillaboom is broken, which you do you, I guess.

 

[East Coast Elite]

Finchinator do you have any thoughts on Roaring Moon. It feels like even though it isn’t the Mon that usually wins games, it always makes an uncompetitive amount of progress and has extremely limited counterplay. It often requires you to Tera or trade 1.5 mons in return for killing it, especially for balance structures.

while we’re on this- if anyone has a roaring moon switch in that works let me know.

 

[Bold School]

I personally have played both (some of you seem to have blocked the memory of DLC1 out, I have to say I'm kind of jealous) and would rather play a meta with Volcarona present. Without Volcarona, grassy terrain teams are way too powerful, essentially allowed to exist uncheckable, and are essentially the vast majority of teams used, not only in tournament but the ladder too. Volcarona being the single best Pokémon into Rillaboom helps prevent this, and even still Gterrain is making waves in the meta and was super popular in SPL. Imagine what the meta would be with the best counter banned.

Come on, man. Aside from Sneasler, which was banned for a reason, I don't recall Grassy Terrain teams being nearly that dominant. I do recall wanting to ban Waterpon and Manaphy in DLC 1 before the latter fell off hard and the former was overshadowed somewhat by more powercreep. Wellspring is still up for debate I guess. Yes, we all know what your opinion is.

Volcorona is not the only check to grassy terrain in a tier with plenty of Fire, Steel, and Dragon types. Like what? Ever heard of Gouging Fire? Ever heard of Corv or Skarm? Even heard of Ghold or Gambit? Ever heard of Dragonite? Did you know we have 6 Fire types in OU and two more in UUBL that are usable on some teams? Volcarona is only one of those. And if we take out Torkoal since that is mostly just a sun setter, you have like 4-6 mons you can put on your team before we even get to things like Moltres or Skeledirge. Did you know we have even more Dragons than that? Did you know we have this great move called ICE SPINNER now that gets rid of terrain? Revolutionary, I know. What the heck do you mean Grassy Terrain teams are essentially uncheckable?

G Terrain is strong because Rillaboom is one of the best priority users in the tier and it is the only terrain setter in SV that isn't a liability in OU. The other terrain types have bad setters. Grassy terrain is good utility and the EQ resistance allows you to support ground weak mons. Grassy Seed is a good item on some mons, but not nearly as strong as Booster Energy or anything. Nothing that is OP on Grassy Terrain isn't OP off it. It's simply a good archetype.

 

[Heatranator]

Finchinator do you have any thoughts on Roaring Moon. It feels like even though it isn’t the Mon that usually wins games, it always makes an uncompetitive amount of progress and has extremely limited counterplay. It often requires you to Tera or trade 1.5 mons in return for killing it, especially for balance structures.

while we’re on this- if anyone has a roaring moon switch in that works let me know.

Orthworm @ Leftovers
Ability: Earth Eater
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Iron Defense
- Rest
Best I could come up with.


Okay, for realsies, you don't really, you just try to hit it before it gets set up and maybe use priority to revenge kill it if it teras. Maybe somebody else would come up with something better.