Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[658Greninja]

Lately I have been given the impression that I am the bootlicker of SV OU and see nothing wrong with the tier, but I do believe there are a few issues to be addressed. One of those being

Firstly, I don’t think Tera Blast is the issue. Very few mons actually got banned because of it, one of them was more broken cause of Speed Boost + Stored Power than Tera. Tera Blast is a dead slot until you run into the matchup you’re looking for. Stuff like Gambit rarely runs Tera Fairy Blast these days. The stuff you’ll see use Tera Blast are

-CB Dragapult for Ghost STAB or to lure Kingambit with Tera Fighting/Fire.

-Dnite for Tera Fairy Blast or Tera Flying Blast.

-DD Kyu for Tera Ground/Fire Blast.

-Moth for Tera Ground/Water Blast

-Enam for Tera Stellar/Ghost/Ground

-and Serp

Most of these are good, but also Tera reliant. They do have clear weaknesses such as CB Pult being prediction reliant, Dnite having a 4mss, DD Kyu being telegraphable in preview, Moth having it HP cut by rocks and only coming in once or twice, Enam being frail with an ok speed tier, and Serp is Serp. Volcarona is not one of them.

In comparison to other Tera Blast users, Volc has a much higher reward that comes with it due to its bulk and set variety. Unlike something like Kyurem where you can figure the set out in preview, you have no idea with Volcarona. So what sets does it run?

Standard Bulkarona
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Ground/Dragon/Water/Grass/Fairy/Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 Spe
Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- Tera Blast/Giga Drain/Bug Buzz
- Morning Sun

The most common set you’ll find. It can pick whatever Tera it wants.

Tera Ground makes you immune to T-Wave Dragapult and also hits Fire resists.

Tera Water cteams Rain and Sun while hitting Balloon Tran and other Fire resists.

Tera Dragon smacks Dragons while still letting you 1v1 Heatran cause it lost Toxic and at the same time, avoids being rkilled by CB Rilla.

-Tera Grass with Giga Drain smacks Primarina and Garg while also beating Tera Water Wogre.

-Tera Fairy also smacks Dragons while giving you a Sucker Punch resist.

-Tera Steel can shit on Toxic Gking, and still keeps your Fairy/Ice resist.

Wisp Bulkarona
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Steel/Fairy/Water/Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun

This is what I refer to as Honest Volc. Wisp gives you early-to-midgame utility while crippling checks like Dnite or Moon. Annoys the shit out of offense.

Offensive Volcarona
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Dragon/Ground/Water/Fairy
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance/Flamethrower/Fire Blast
- Tera Blast
- Giga Drain/Bug Buzz/Morning Sun

The same as Bulkarona but more offensive. At +1 you OHKO Raging Bolt, G-Fire, with Tera Ground or Dragon. With Giga Drain it 1v1s non-AV Prim, and the spicy option here is Fire Blast which OHKOs Lando, Tusk, and physd Gliscor after rocks at +1. Since you have 135 SpA, you could even fish for Fiery Dance boosts vs Balance and kill Gking with Fiery + Tera Ground.

Sub-QD
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Water/Ground/Dragon/Fairy
EVs: 180 HP / 112 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance/Flamethrower
- Tera Blast
- Substitute

Degenerate asf. The counterplay to Volc for most Balances is to swap into Gliscor or Gking and click Toxic, then Volc whips out the Substitute and now the whole team gets wiped. Also it ruins Garg.

So Volc can be any one of these sets and Teras, which creates a problem of actually checking it. Here’s a list of checks that either lose to a certain Volc set/Tera or don’t.

Can’t T-Wave vs Tera Ground. Every other set loses to Tera Fairy or Dragon.

SpD Gliscor can trade with Volcarona and click Toxic, however you’re likely to lose Gliscor since offensive Volc still does a shitton. Also loses to Tera Water Blast and Sub-QD.

Loses to Bug Buzz or Tera Dragon variants. Also loses to Wisp + Tera Grass.

Forced to Tera against Volc since +1 Bug Buzz, Tera Dragon/Fairy Blast will one-shot. Also risks getting burnt by Wisp or Flame Body.

Can tank a few hits from Volc, especially with AV. However since Gking is tasked with checking other specially offensive threats on Volc’s team, it gets overwhelmed fast and won’t be able to maintain the moth. Also Sub-QD and Tera Steel shits on this.

Loses to Wisp or Tera Fairy variants.

Loses to Tera Ground or Tera Grass Giga, especially with Sub QD.

Loses to Tera Ground or Dragon.

Non-AV loses to Giga Drain or even Tera Ground Blast since Prim doesn’t do enough to +1 Volc.

One of the few reliable Volc checks as it can phaze out any Volc set, but loses long-term due to no recovery.

2HKOd by Tera Ground. Tera Water also gets forced to clicking Recover vs Offensive variants with Bug Buzz or Giga Drain.

Clod and Blissey are the only long-term checks to the Moth, even Tera Ground fails to break past Unaware Clod. CM Blissey 1v1s Volc.

Even without Tera Ground/Water, Volc can still 1v1 this after a few QD boosts since no Toxic.

Denies Morning Sun recovery, but otherwise loses to Tera Ground Volc unless it techs Roar.

These are not real.

So what is the counterplay to beating Volc? Either hope it’s not the set your team loses to, stack a bunch of Volc checks, or run Ting/Clod/Blissey because that is what it boils down to. The builds that have the hardest time against Volc are BO/HO. Their answers are Glimmora who is almost never on the field and is setup fodder for certain Volc variants, Encore Val who only comes in once and Volc can just switch out, or Primarina who can lose to Giga Drain variants or lose the 1v1 to Offensive Tera Ground/Fairy.

If there is one mon that incentivizes a slower paced meta filled with Balance or Stall, it’s Volcarona. So if we don’t want the tier to be like this, then action should be taken on Volc.

But wait, doesn’t Volc provide some defensive value to the tier? Yes, it does, but here’s why it doesn’t matter.

Volc is one of the best Kyu checks and without it, Kyu would run over the tier, right? Wrong. Specs Kyu is overrated due to being more support reliant and harder to fit than other breakers. Any good Balance team can respond to Specs with SR + scouting from Tect Gliscor while packing Glowking, or an Ice resist. Boots variants have less horsepower and can be played around with Garg, SpD Clef, Glowking, Dirge, Weavile, Mirror Coat Mola, SpD Corv, etc.

Volc covers these two nicely, but unlike in Home or DLC1, we aren’t lacking in offensive Val checks. Stuff like Primarina comes to mind. On the defensive side we have Pjab Clod, Glowking, Corv, Mixed Dfse Mola, Dirge, Clef, etc. Enamorus is not nearly on the same threat level it was in Home due to the meh speed tier. In fact, banning Volc would make it easier to check them and open up other possible Fairy checks like

These two are discouraged from clicking their spammable Grass moves with Volc, but Volc also doesn’t switch into them well due to Knock. The role of Rilla check can already be accompanied on Balance by Corv or Heatran.

Volc has been the most consistent Ghold check since its been in the tier. I would argue it’s an outright counter. So Volc being banned would make Ghold the biggest winner. This is the main thing that makes players hesitant on banning Volc due to its matchup against slower builds, but I don’t think its going to be broken. Defensive counterplay such as Gambit, Ting-Lu, Unaware Clod, G-Fire, AV Hoopa, and Tera Water Garg do exist. Faster paced teams don’t need Volc’s help with Ghold, they have like 5 fucking Dark types to work with. Balance will live.

While Volc is beneficial to the tier defensively, it generates matchup fishy scenarios where checking it offensively/defensively is almost entirely dependent on the set or Tera. The only archetype that can consistently deal with Volc is Stall or by stacking 2-3 Volc checks on Balance. Raging Bolt is another bulky CM sweeper that can break its checks, but it’s balanced out due to its lackluster speed plus its reliance on Tera and Thunder Clap to handle BO.

Imo the best archetype in the tier is Special BO or HO (more on that in a future post). Volc can be handled by Gking + SpD Gliscor or Ting-Lu, but when you also have to fend off a Raging Bolt or Primarina, it makes things too difficult, creating an eerily similar problem with Archaludon. If I haven’t made myself clear, Volc should be the next suspect, regardless of the defensive value it provides in the tier.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

the "but it benefits the tier defensively" argument never held water—if something is broken, it doesn't matter whether it brings value to the tier, it should be banned. whatever consequences that ban brings, it should happen regardless. remember dlc1 gliscor? it buffed a ton of defensive playstyles that otherwise were just straight-up not good in dlc1. but we had to get rid of the mon anyway because it was broken, and that was ultimately the right decision (stop crying about zap-king-lu balance, it was fine). remember archaludon? outside of its one broken move, it had a fantastic defensive profile and could have easily been one of the biggest defensive powerhouses of the generation. but the electro shot sets made it broken, so it had to go. if we want to keep mons that are broken on the whole but benefit the tier in some specific way, the only feasible way to do that would be to isolate and remove the broken part while keeping the useful part, which would require either a substantial policy change (for signature moves like electro shot or come-on-they're-basically-signature-no-one-else-uses-this moves like rage fist) or complex bans (for something like volc where there's no easy way to isolate the contentious part without massive collateral damage). the latter is anathema to tiering philosophy, and the former is something that i personally would like to see happen but the higher-ups are vehemently against

tl;dr no one cares if something broken has defensive benefits, get it away

 

[Bold School]

Tera Blast is a red herring for problems with Tera and/or problems with pokemon that us it. Normally, I would be against this. However, I have come to the conclusion that banning it could have some potentially positive consequences. So I am kinda for it now. Not that I expect it to happen.

I agree with most people who say it won't have a support and so we should focus on Volc. Maybe a TB ban can come later if it proves to be an issue still somehow. My problem is how do we know Volc itself will have enough support? This could easily be seen as the special attacking version of Gouging Fire.

We need to make sure the reasons and arguments to ban Volc are stronger going into a suspect than they have been in the recent past. Because technically almost every set it runs can be countered. It's just that all of them can't at once and it become matchup moth. Same for all the borderline threats, TBH. And so, anything left under the microscope can probably be justified as not ban worthy by enough of the voters to ensure it stays. How do we get past that issue with Volcarona?

the "but it benefits the tier defensively" argument never held water—if something is broken, it doesn't matter whether it brings value to the tier, it should be banned. whatever consequences that ban brings, it should happen regardless. remember dlc1 gliscor?

You had me until DLC 1 Gliscor. IMO, that was one of the biggest mistakes this gen. Gliscor was a red herring for the spikes issue. There is also an argument that the meta that followed was unhealthy.

But sure, benefits the tier defensively isn't a reason not to be something. While we tend to mostly ban extreme offensive threats, anything can be broken. From defensive mons, to pivos, to supports. It's not just overwhelming offensive threats that we should ever look at. And we shouldn't necesarrily be more lenient because something seems good for the tier in some way. Broken is broken. Smogon tiering policy is supposed to be about focusing on the problem mon and worrying about the after effects of a possible ban later.

So I agree with your main point. You just used a poor example.

As far as Volc's defensive utility goes, I would like to point out that we have a lot of options. Iron Moth and Moltres can both be decent substitutes depending on what folks are looking for. Heatran and Gouging Fire also have good defensive utility as fire types. More purely offensive fire types such as Cinderace and Ceruledge can also be utilized.

 

[East Coast Elite]

What are some options for boots space ti deal with Gholdengo? I’ve noticed it’s been putting more of a strain on balance lately. We’re reaching the point in the meta where things slow down a bit and it’s back to being sort of broken. (I know it won’t get banned because nothing does dw)

 

[Magcargo]

I'm personally on the fence on Volcarona. It brings a lot of defensive value for sure, but Morning Sun in a Gking metagame can feel rough & using it as an answer for stuff like Kyurem or Ghold also doesn't feel great since that's interrupting its main purpose of being a wincon. The ideal way to use its defensive utility isn't as a check to the aforementioned Pokemon, but rather an oppurtunity to setup.

IMO the "broken" sets are the ones with Morning Sun since those are bulky enough to get good setup oppurtunities, and can easily play around priority users, but those sets have coverage issues where they are always going to be stonewalled by something. Being so Tera reliant also creates holes when pairing it with other Pokemon that want to use Tera, like Dragonite or Garganacl & the fact its so reliant on Tera for coverage makes it more difficult to useful types like Steel or Poison to handle Toxic users. A lot of its coverage types also have some notable drawbacks. Ground and Rock are pretty good, but still leave it weak to water-moves. Dragon and Grass are useful against Water-types, but are either flawed in other ways (in the case of Grass) or don't really help it against bulkier special walls like Clodsire (in the case of Dragon).

Really though, that might be part of the problem. Volcarona is a really MU fishy, so its power level can vary wildly based off of what it runs. Sure, Moltres and Spdef Dondozo are generally decent checks and will work in 10 out of 12 scenarios, but what if Volcarona is Tera Rock or Grass? Quiver dance is a very variable move, esp on Volcarona, so the impact of the boost can matter more or less depending on positioning & team structures. Generally, the fatter a build is, the less Volcarona will even be able to accomplish I feel. It also doesn't help that most Tera flips work against Volcarona too, with threats like Tera Fire Zamazenta exploiting a good teal of Volcarona variants. This is a tricky Pokemon to evaluate.

 

[Eeveeto]

Good to see some talk about a potential Ban again. I prefer Volcarona gone over Waterpon, but will vote Ban on either if the opportunity arises.

 

[MegaScizor32]

the "but it benefits the tier defensively" argument never held water—if something is broken, it doesn't matter whether it brings value to the tier, it should be banned. whatever consequences that ban brings, it should happen regardless. remember dlc1 gliscor? it buffed a ton of defensive playstyles that otherwise were just straight-up not good in dlc1. but we had to get rid of the mon anyway because it was broken, and that was ultimately the right decision (stop crying about zap-king-lu balance, it was fine). remember archaludon? outside of its one broken move, it had a fantastic defensive profile and could have easily been one of the biggest defensive powerhouses of the generation. but the electro shot sets made it broken, so it had to go. if we want to keep mons that are broken on the whole but benefit the tier in some specific way, the only feasible way to do that would be to isolate and remove the broken part while keeping the useful part, which would require either a substantial policy change (for signature moves like electro shot or come-on-they're-basically-signature-no-one-else-uses-this moves like rage fist) or complex bans (for something like volc where there's no easy way to isolate the contentious part without massive collateral damage). the latter is anathema to tiering philosophy, and the former is something that i personally would like to see happen but the higher-ups are vehemently against

tl;dr no one cares if something broken has defensive benefits, get it away

I wanna agree with you but ultimately we have to look at the suspect mon as a whole and that includes both pros and cons of said mon. If it brings something to the tier defensively it adds one healthy aspect to it and people are less willing to ban it.

Just look at the suspect test. It was extremely polarizing and its power level so high, 55% of voters found it broken. The remaining 45% voted DNB because they thought it was too valuable in adding a ghost check for the OU tier. And even tho I disagreed with this reasoning personally it was still a point of why some wanted to keep it. Honestly its all up to the voters discretion to decide whether a mon is broken enough to ban and its positives traits are influential to this decision.

 

[East Coast Elite]

Good to see some talk about a potential Ban again. I prefer Volcarona gone over Waterpon, but will vote Ban on either if the opportunity arises.

I’m not hopeful. All the conversation sounds like the same thing before the last two suspects for me. People are split, a high ranked player comes from the top rope and says everyone who votes ban is swine who are a blight on the education system, and then the Mon at issue isn’t banned by a vote of like 51-49.

 

[DaRotomMachine]

I'm personally on the fence on Volcarona. It brings a lot of defensive value for sure, but Morning Sun in a Gking metagame can feel rough & using it as an answer for stuff like Kyurem or Ghold also doesn't feel great since that's interrupting its main purpose of being a wincon. The ideal way to use its defensive utility isn't as a check to the aforementioned Pokemon, but rather an oppurtunity to setup.

IMO the "broken" sets are the ones with Morning Sun since those are bulky enough to get good setup oppurtunities, and can easily play around priority users, but those sets have coverage issues where they are always going to be stonewalled by something. Being so Tera reliant also creates holes when pairing it with other Pokemon that want to use Tera, like Dragonite or Garganacl & the fact its so reliant on Tera for coverage makes it more difficult to useful types like Steel or Poison to handle Toxic users. A lot of its coverage types also have some notable drawbacks. Ground and Rock are pretty good, but still leave it weak to water-moves. Dragon and Grass are useful against Water-types, but are either flawed in other ways (in the case of Grass) or don't really help it against bulkier special walls like Clodsire (in the case of Dragon).

Really though, that might be part of the problem. Volcarona is a really MU fishy, so its power level van vary wildly based off of what it runs. Sure, Moltres and Spdef Dondozo are generally decent checks and will work in 10 out of 12 scenarios, but what if Volcarona is Tera Rock or Grass? Quiver dance is a very variable move, esp on Volcarona, so the impact of the boost can matter more or less depending on positioning & team structures. Generally, the fatter a build is, the less Volcarona will even be able to accomplish I feel. It also doesn't help that most Tera flips work against Volcarona too, with threats like Tera Fire Zamazenta exploiting a good teal of Volcarona variants. This is a tricky Pokemon to evaluate.

Has anyone ever used Will-O-Wisp Volcarona?

set here

Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Tera Type: Whatever
Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp
- Fiery Dance

Yes first thing you would see is that its only move is Fiery Dance. Oh, you get walled by Toxapex. Or Oh, you can't hit Ogrepon Wellspring at all which good lead to it sweeping your team. But that's not the point. Once you eliminate these threats (or things you can't hit) you get a wincon that can perfectly neutralize sweeper stoppers like Kingambit with Will-O-Wisp. And the thing is, most people are probably not gonna be expecting it.

 

[TCTphantom]

Honestly, I doubt *anything* right now would be able to hit 60% in a suspect test. I feel like we see at least one ban discussion every week which goes through the same framework. That isn't a bad thing, but I doubt Volcarona, Ogerpon, Kingambit, Gholdengo, or what have you would hit a 60% ban percent in a suspect test. I think this is just the sin of a high power level format like SV OU. There is like anywhere from 5-10 mons people could make a post for saying that it is the problem with the tier, but I doubt after Kyurem and Gouging Fire anything is going to have that unified support to ban.

Before anyone says unban something, pretty much every uber would objectively make the tier worse right now at best or is extremely dumb. Your Lugias, Solgaleos, and the like are going to be dumb as heck if they ever got unleashed on OU. *Maybe* you could make a case that Zamazenta Crowned wouldnt be completely ass to play against, but I doubt it would ever get a full unified effort for an unban since it can be a cheese mon. So yeah, I think for the forseeable future unless public sentiment shifts we are kind of stuck for a while. Tera is going to stay, most suspects will likely be close as heck that lead to things surviving, and nothing is going to drop.

 

[Magcargo]

Honestly, I doubt *anything* right now would be able to hit 60% in a suspect test. I feel like we see at least one ban discussion every week which goes through the same framework. That isn't a bad thing, but I doubt Volcarona, Ogerpon, Kingambit, Gholdengo, or what have you would hit a 60% ban percent in a suspect test. I think this is just the sin of a high power level format like SV OU. There is like anywhere from 5-10 mons people could make a post for saying that it is the problem with the tier, but I doubt after Kyurem and Gouging Fire anything is going to have that unified support to ban.

Before anyone says unban something, pretty much every uber would objectively make the tier worse right now at best or is extremely dumb. Your Lugias, Solgaleos, and the like are going to be dumb as heck if they ever got unleashed on OU. *Maybe* you could make a case that Zamazenta Crowned wouldnt be completely ass to play against, but I doubt it would ever get a full unified effort for an unban since it can be a cheese mon. So yeah, I think for the forseeable future unless public sentiment shifts we are kind of stuck for a while. Tera is going to stay, most suspects will likely be close as heck that lead to things surviving, and nothing is going to drop.

Yeah, the only mon I'd really vote ban on RN is Ogerpon-W and Tera Blast if that is ever looked at. Every other mon that's in consideration for a test, I'm likely to vote DNB on (except some mons I'm personally biased against like Manaphy and Moon but those aren't gonna get suspected). There might be calls for a Tera retest later, but the only way I'd consider voting ban on the mechanic as a whole is if all of Urshifu-RS, Ogerpon-HF, and Archaludon are immediately unbanned.

 

[Avira]

Honestly, I doubt *anything* right now would be able to hit 60% in a suspect test. I feel like we see at least one ban discussion every week which goes through the same framework. That isn't a bad thing, but I doubt Volcarona, Ogerpon, Kingambit, Gholdengo, or what have you would hit a 60% ban percent in a suspect test. I think this is just the sin of a high power level format like SV OU. There is like anywhere from 5-10 mons people could make a post for saying that it is the problem with the tier, but I doubt after Kyurem and Gouging Fire anything is going to have that unified support to ban.

People said this after the Kyurem suspect, and Archaludon was banned with a 76% majority. You omitting Archaludon to commit to your narrative that nothing else will be banned is disingenuous. Will it be harder to ban further mons from now on? Yes, but to suggest that there will be no further action is unnecessary fearmongering.

 

[East Coast Elite]

Yeah, the only mon I'd really vote ban on RN is Ogerpon-W and Tera Blast if that is ever looked at. Every other mon that's in consideration for a test, I'm likely to vote DNB on (except some mons I'm personally biased against like Manaphy and Moon but those aren't gonna get suspected). There might be calls for a Tera retest later, but the only way I'd consider voting ban on the mechanic as a whole is if all of Urshifu-RS, Ogerpon-HF, and Archaludon are immediately unbanned.

I also think Moon is cracked, it has very minimal answers if you don’t Tera to stop it or run stall. Agree it won’t be banned though.

 

[TCTphantom]

People said this after the Kyurem suspect, and Archaludon was banned with a 76% majority. You omitting Archaludon to commit to your narrative that nothing else will be banned is disingenious. Will it be harder to ban further mons from now on? Yes, but to suggest that there will be no further action is unnecessary fearmongering.

You are omitting the most important sentence from the second paragraph that alludes to that.

I think for the forseeable future unless public sentiment shifts we are kind of stuck for a while.

Sentiment around Arch being a problem was very low outside of a few top players until its test happened, as illustrated by its poor survey scores. But afterwords, we did see people coalesce around banning it. It got a higher ban percentage than any of our banned suspects except for Ursaluna Blood Moon. Higher than Chien Pao, higher than Roaring Moon, higher than Gliscor. If public sentiment does shift, yes obviously we can ban anything. Maybe the tier will wake up tomorrow, decide X mon is a problem and vote it out of the tier. But I am not going to bet on change with the tier in its current state. Could things change? Yes, obviously. But until they do, I'm going to go with the mentality that there will not be bans for a while. Maybe something pops up in discussion down the road as a late blooming threat, a SM Zygarde or a SS Kyurem. But again, betting on that isn't productive.

Conversely, I think that saying that we won't have future action isn't out and out fearmongering. We have our toolbox the way it is, for better and for worse. We should use it to build the best meta we can. Player innovations can help curb bad tendencies in the meta. The meta adapted to Kyurem and Gouging Fire. New meta trends pop up and rise mons that were worse back up. Lando T is once again a good mon in the tier. Darkrai and Deoxys Speed have mounted comebacks. Iron Crown, despite being written off early on, is actually a pretty solid mon. The tier isn't perfect, but that does not mean that we can't make a fun metagame out of it.

 

[Finchinator]

To me, Volcarona is clearly the most banworthy Pokemon. It has the ability to circumvent virtually all counterplay and, unlike most versatile Pokemon, it doesn’t tip off set at team preview a ton.

It will be missed as a Fairy and Ice resist on offenses for sure, but you don’t want to fall down the rabbit hole of preserving a would-be broken for stuff like that — that’s why tiering isn’t just one act and can have follow through after all.

Wellspring is also pretty dumb, but at least we are seeing a little adaptation here and there. Still clearly suspect worthy to me, but not as pressing.

 

[arnimacarni]

To me, Volcarona is clearly the most banworthy Pokemon. It has the ability to circumvent virtually all counterplay and, unlike most versatile Pokemon, it doesn’t tip off set at team preview a ton.

It will be missed as a Fairy and Ice resist on offenses for sure, but you don’t want to fall down the rabbit hole of preserving a would-be broken for stuff like that — that’s why tiering isn’t just one act and can have follow through after all.

Wellspring is also pretty dumb, but at least we are seeing a little adaptation here and there. Still clearly suspect worthy to me, but not as pressing.

I'm sorry for the ignorance, and I seriously don't ask this maliciously, but where does this anti-Volc sentiment come from? I have been following the thread and VR closely and it seems like we were all saying that Woger was super broken and all of a sudden now Volc is unbearable? It be doing what it always does, no super groundbreaking development has been found. And as many have pointed out, it doesn't even run TB THAT often, plus the GFire matchup is horrendous. Any clarity on this push for Volc ban is appreciated. Thx for the work

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

The remaining 45% voted DNB because they thought it was too valuable in adding a ghost check for the OU tier.

not entirely, a pretty substantial amount of them were just trying to force action on tera and thought the best way to do that was to keep a pokemon in the tier that they considered only broken thanks to tera. it's like what happened with the dugtrio suspect where a bunch of people voted dnb on the basis that arena trap was the problem, except that time they were right and this time they weren't

 

[Tio Chico]

About Tera, I think I've overthrown my king before, but I reaffirm, even though I'm totally against the presence of this unhealthy mechanic for several reasons that I don't want to mention so as not to take away from the main focus, there has never been an agreement between doing something or not and neither about what to do. Even the topic about Terastal on Policy Review had been inactive for months and was archived. Even if a member of the council says never say never, just to cool things down, we already know that it is something that will remain.
With that I say we should stop treating future threats as broken only with Tera. Tera is something inseparable from the degree of threat and diversity that a Pokémon presents, and should be treated as such.
This may affect some "innocent" mon who are really only broken due to the mechanics, like Regieleki was, but it will be the price to pay to have some development in the tier, the price to pay to maintain the mechanics.

I also believe that we have already left an initial metagame state and there are no releases/dlc scheduled, and the broken checks broken mentality that shouldn't even exist should be rethought. Concepts of "centralization" and "unhealthy" conditions need to be weighed together with "broken". This could have a domino effect once a key piece falls, but it seems like it's something that needs to happen.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I also believe that we have already left an initial metagame state and there are no releases/dlc scheduled

oh just you wait, they're gonna pull some bullshit like "surprise! remember that new mythical all the leakers were talking about that turned out to actually be nothing? well here it is without an announcement" or "haha what if we added megas and kalosian forms when legends zaza comes out, wouldn't that be funny" and the meta will be turned on its head yet again

 

[Finchinator]

I'm sorry for the ignorance, and I seriously don't ask this maliciously, but where does this anti-Volc sentiment come from? I have been following the thread and VR closely and it seems like we were all saying that Woger was super broken and all of a sudden now Volc is unbearable? It be doing what it always does, no super groundbreaking development has been found. And as many have pointed out, it doesn't even run TB THAT often, plus the GFire matchup is horrendous. Any clarity on this push for Volc ban is appreciated. Thx for the work

Volc has been this way the whole time for me; Wellspring got discussed more because it was more recently (probably started in February) of a development.

Idk who said it doesn’t run TB that often; almost every set does (besides Wisp) and the two most common TB hit Gouging Fire.

Volc was over a 3 on surveys a while back, too, and it’s only grown more versatile since really. A suspect seems more than appropriate.

 

[Tio Chico]

oh just you wait, they're gonna pull some bullshit like "surprise! remember that new mythical all the leakers were talking about that turned out to actually be nothing? well here it is without an announcement" or "haha what if we added megas and kalosian forms when legends zaza comes out, wouldn't that be funny" and the meta will be turned on its head yet again

I don't believe Game Freak will want to go through the trouble of adding Megas in the current generation.
The most that Legends Z can provide us with is a few variants of the Kalosian form, as was the case with Hisui/LoA. And this is likely at the end of 2025. Plus compatibility considerations to be seen. Then the changes wouldn't be so serious.
Yes, I understand your comical point, just in case anyone decides to hold back because of this.

 

[Time Waster]

Echoing that I don't see the point of banning Tera Blast when the only real abuser of it who isn't already banned is Volc. Also has by far the most variety in its tera types among the mons that do use tera blast. It's match up moth for a reason. Iron Moth is probably the second best user but is a lot more predictable (it's almost always ground) and it's not consistent like Volc is. Pult/Kyurem use it for physical moves occasionally but those sets are far from broken. Stellar Enam fell off hard and the only reason Serp is still an OU mon is glare hax. Everything in the game gets this move but very few actually use it and almost none do so regularly. I think that speaks to its brokenness. For most mons it's not worth the tera requirement and the potentially useless moveslot.

The biggest pro to a tera blast ban is that Eleki could be dropped for another spinner I guess. Overall I don't think this would change much.

 

[Dhrabb]

I really don't get the sentiment of suspects not being able to reach the required majority for a ban. Yes, Kyurem and Gouging Fire were seen as broken initially and did not get banned but that just shows the suspect system actually worked, we could actively see the meta adapting to them in real time, the easiest example to showcase being the rise of Lando T during the Gouging suspect. If you still think this mon is broken even after the pages of discussion on the suspect thread regarding counterplay and multiple voters switching sides after getting reqs then idk what to say; the mon really isn't broken and thus, not banned.
My point is that if something IS deemed broken, Volc and Wellspring from the discussion here, it is still likely to be banned unless we also see real time adaptation to them just like with Gouging Fire. In which case, fair enough if it doesn't get banned. But idk about y'all, but I'm not seeing major shifts that make Volc's insane set variety any easier to handle, nor do I think the counterplay most people state about Oger is enough for it to be a healthy presence.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Can't we literally just ban tera instead of EVERYTHING SURROUNDING IT? Like, so what if it's the generational gimmick? It is the very cause of why OU is in the state it is, it's why over half of the tier is as offensively oppressive as they are. I truly do not and until it's banned, will not understand the prospect of keeping terastallization in OU at all. I lack the skill to play OU at the top level and I'm almost certain tera won't get suspected ever again but even still man... I just don't see why banning VOLCARONA is more important than banning the thing it and multiple other pokemon abuse :_

 

[Heatranator]

Can't we literally just ban tera instead of EVERYTHING SURROUNDING IT? Like, so what if it's the generational gimmick? It is the very cause of why OU is in the state it is, it's why over half of the tier is as offensively oppressive as they are. I truly do not and until it's banned, will not understand the prospect of keeping terastallization in OU at all. I lack the skill to play OU at the top level and I'm almost certain tera won't get suspected ever again but even still man... I just don't see why banning VOLCARONA is more important than banning the thing it and multiple other pokemon abuse :_

Say it with me kids:
Even if tera is banned, most mons that would be banned would still be banned, and most problematic mons in this meta would most likely still be oppresive.
We literally have regieleki, volcarona, terapagos and maybe espathra (though I'm less sure about that one not being broken) that would be alright if tera is banned. Every other mon uses tera, yes, but they are still overpowered without it. Arch didn't need to tera, it was just a nice bonus. Waterpon doesn't need to tera, tera just makes it hit harder, but it still hits pretty damn hard without it.