nidoking's a direct improvement over nidoqueen offensively because he's faster and hits harder, so nidoqueen is perpetually one tier below nidoking as the "next best thing"
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Funny enough this isn't always true; in SS UU nidoqueen was way better because of its better bulk.
i could've sworn nidoking was solid ou last gen though, was i thinking of something else or did it just fall off
Nidoking wasn't ever OU I don't think, I just know it was also in UU and was much worse than nidoqueen. I didn't play OU last gen though.
It was UU but used often in OU
not by usage but it did see a bit of play in OU last gen. you can never really go wrong with diet landorus-I
“nidoking was never ou” mfs when i point out the best metagame ever (bdspou)
So is clodsire diet landorus-i on steroids? It seems to have copied the one ability it wasn't supposed to, then gone and went 'eh, screw this' then took steroids and became TANKE
Clodsire and Lando-I have vastly different roles in a team. Clodsire is a special wall that has utilizes its typing and abilities to check a decent chunk of the metagame, especially when running Unaware, while Lando-I is a special breaker that utilizes its ability and stats to break through teams with Sheer Force Life Orb boosted attacks that blast through almost any mon that tries to check it.
Nidoking WAS actually OU for a while early in the Crown Tundra metagame. And not just because of new toy syndrome. It was really quite good (pretty sure at some point it peaked around like A- rank in viability for a brief period).
An important point with nidoqueen over nidoking is that you always win against raging bolt, even if they tera, youre faster by 1 point and are immune to thunderclap. infact if they have tera'd already, you can actually switch in if youre in a pinch.
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Dragon Pulse vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 237-279 (71.1 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
this is just the standard set on smogon. With 0 hp you still easily live, even with a spike on the field. Here's another one of interest:
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Nidoqueen: 271-319 (84.4 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
248 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 367-432 (104.5 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
slightly tweaked the defense here but thats an important calc, adamant booster cant ohko with flare blitz
+1 72 Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 262-309 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and here is the bulky set at +1, no chance to ohko nidoqueen
I would really love to trial nidoqueen in OU, who knows it probably wouldve put a stop to archaludon as well.
252+ SpA Protosynthesis Raging Bolt Dragon Pulse vs. 48 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 237-279 (71.1 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
this is just the standard set on smogon. With 0 hp you still easily live, even with a spike on the field. Here's another one of interest:
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 52 Def Nidoqueen: 271-319 (84.4 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
248 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gouging Fire: 367-432 (104.5 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO
slightly tweaked the defense here but thats an important calc, adamant booster cant ohko with flare blitz
+1 72 Atk Gouging Fire Flare Blitz vs. 48 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 262-309 (78.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and here is the bulky set at +1, no chance to ohko nidoqueen
I would really love to trial nidoqueen in OU, who knows it probably wouldve put a stop to archaludon as well.
Nidoking had his niche for his better speed and Gen 1 movepool, but in a world with Great Tusk I can't see him coming back as a common offensive mon. 85 was crept mad hard this gen. Nidoqueen didn't hit any major speed points with Timid so she typically ran Modest which actually outpowered +Spe Nidoking. Unfortunately she's never had recovery (I didn't play BDSP, correct me) and had to rely on Black Sludge which hampered her as a defensive mon.
I'm really curious about this, I went looking and couldn't find it. Why is physical hoopa better? Disregarding the fact I'm a huge fan of mixed hoopa.
Sorry my post was a bit vague, i think the discussion was around page 216. Mixed hoopa is perfectly fine (it's actually ideal) my post was talking about why hyperspace fury is quite a lot stronger over dark pulse despite its higher spA. Even with 0 evs it deals more damage than max spA dark pulse. It's just how damage calculations are done, move base power and damage multipliers generally impact damage output way more than BST. That's why movepool is so critical. It's the same deal with valiants spirit break. Fully invested spirit break is only 2% stronger than uninvested moonblast. SpA valiants moonblast is SIGNIFICANTLY stronger than a physical variant.
but is hyperspace fury better than knock off on non-banded sets, though? the consistent power is nice, but i think knock off's utility is better in most scenarios, especially on bulkier hoopa sets where you really don't want the defense drop (fun fact: you can actually ev it to live a fully invested gambit sucker with 5 overlords even with a -def nature). full-power knock off is only marginally less strong than hyperspace fury too, so it still snags a lot of the same kos
Knock off/ hyperspace fury that's a personal choice, but both are objectively better than dark pulse, that's the point I was making
It depends I think. I would say most of the time, knock off is better. But if they have reliable recovery and hazard removal, say regen, than knock off has a lot less power on subsequent attacks, which in that case hyperspace hole is better. If you can abuse the item remoal of knock off, than knock off would be better, which most teams can do to somewhat of a degree.
For example:
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 187-222 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa-Unbound Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 181-214 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Technically, against dondozo, hyperspace fury is better in this scenario because despite the defense drop, it is a lot more spammable. Knock off, while still being great, doesn't acheive those numbers. (This is for choice band sets, but you can apply a non-choice band calc for a different mon. This is just to demonstrate my point) Against Dondozo with hyperspace fury they have to be careful to not drop 75% hp, as it will be 2 hit ko'd 98% of the time, which is massive. Against Dondozo with knock off they will have to lose their boots, but if they have something like corv, then that could be alright as you are now only guarenteed a 4hit ko. I know you say for non-banded sets, but sometimes you just want to have that raw power consistently.
A better example with assault vest hoopa:
44+ Atk Hoopa-Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Corviknight: 141-166 (35.2 - 41.5%) -- 74.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
44+ Atk Hoopa-Unbound Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Corviknight: 136-162 (34 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
In this case, while the calc says that knock off is better, corv can roost off the next knock off, so in this case it getting only 26% from fury compared to knock's 23% is marginally better. And the best part is you can use the hyperspace fury calc again, whereas knock's calc only happens once, meaning in the long term fury is better from a pure damage perspective, not including hazards.
TLDR, knock off is better for slowly breaking down cores if hazards can be abused, hyperspace fury is if you want to not have some mons wall you after their item is removed. I would still say you should choose knock off most of the time, but if you can play around the defense drops and have knock off somewhere else on your team, then hyperspace fury might be better.
I've been toying around with Maushold, and that 111 speed means it can revenge kill Ogerpon, even without chip:
252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 400-480 (132.8 - 159.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Eight hits is enough to OHKO from full, seven is a favorable roll, six or fewer and you need chip. I've been messing around (in low ladder, to be clear) with Maushold on a webs team as a cleaner/revenge killer, because Population Bomb is just that powerful and very little outspeeds a +1 Maushold in the endgame, especially if Webs stayed up.
252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 400-480 (132.8 - 159.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Eight hits is enough to OHKO from full, seven is a favorable roll, six or fewer and you need chip. I've been messing around (in low ladder, to be clear) with Maushold on a webs team as a cleaner/revenge killer, because Population Bomb is just that powerful and very little outspeeds a +1 Maushold in the endgame, especially if Webs stayed up.
What was rude about my comment? I see no need to sneak in that politely in there lol. I don't think it's that insane of an idea and it is just a suggestion, nothing more.
You could EV it to do this, but I wouldn’t recommend it. If your Hoopa is your last resort against Kingambit, that’s not good. Plus, you need to be at full HP, so you need to not take any damage ever. Including rocks. Which means you need some kind of removal on your team, like Great Tusk or “Cinderace”, both much better into Kingambit.
my brother in christ it's literally a sample set
How are you getting Maushold to +1 and keeping webs up
Yes I know and I always change the EVs to outspeed Gliscor, and replace Gunk Shot with Thunderbolt
It's not that your comment was rude, they were pointing out that if you contact an admin about a teraless ladder, you should do so politely, as some users have reportedly been a bit aggressive and threatening in regards to this request
I'm going to assume your suggestion was not out of bad faith and adding onto what the previous user already answered, it's very disingenuous to suspect something AFTER the fact or BEFORE the fact. you gotta see it like this: are you voting based on the state of the current meta or are you voting based on your impressions of a (by your account) temporary meta? The fact of the matter is that the current meta is what we have to work with. Everything else can give you an impression of things, but it's not going to be the meta you pull up on ladder, not the meta used in tournaments, etc... It's like if we suspected Archaludon without Archaludon allowed. Are you voting on Archaludon's brokenness or on your impression on the lack thereof? Because even if you find something broken, people might disagree. That's like the whole point of suspects, as least how I see it. Going into it without a clear opinion and form one as you play. If you removed tera to justify that teraless is better, you're just stating an opinion, not addressing how tera ACTUALLY affects the current meta.