Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Banned]

[East Coast Elite]

I don’t think the meta sucks, I’m just

and notably, the meta still sucks. we need more bans actually

I’m more pointing this out as sort of an interesting development in the meta than a reason for more bans. I think the issues with the meta mostly stem from the top tier mons being so powerful it allows periphery pokemon that are good, but match up reliant, to go off more often since they can take advantage of common holes in teams.

 

[viivian]

+2 252 Atk Ceruledge Shadow Sneak vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 138-163 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ceruledge: 378-446 (129.8 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 115-136 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- 43.5% chance to 4HKO
+2 252 Atk Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 76-91 (15 - 18%) -- possible 6HKO
0 Atk Dondozo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ceruledge: 206-246 (70.7 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Great 6-0 against stall

And requiring Tera to accomplish anything kinda sucks especially since you're still open to revenge kills afterwards due to your poor speed.

shoutout to tera grass solar blade ceruledge on sun teams. not having shadow sneak unfortunately means you have to rely on weak armor procs a lot more but you beat pretty much all of the standard defensive checks to ceruledge. it's a super potent set but sadly it's even harder to justify using nowadays than it was in DLC1

 

[veti]

and notably, the meta still sucks. we need more bans actually

I think we're currently in a good place, and we don't need any bans, stuff like pon, moon, kyurem, and others are just good wallbreakers and not broken.

 

[East Coast Elite]

I think we're currently in a good place, and we don't need any bans, stuff like pon, moon, kyurem, and others are just good wallbreakers and not broken.

I would disagree with this. I think threat saturation is still an issue. It’s not that one of those aforementioned mons are grossly problematic like Sneasler or Bax, but in the context of a meta with all of them, it creates a lot of team building stress unless you’re going very offensive. I still think balance and BO structures are very limited even if they’re viable.

 

[Eeveeto]

Mons that I currently would Ban in no particular order:

Gholdengo
Gliscor
Kingambit
Roaring Moon
Raging Bolt
Gouging Fire (this one for sure is not happening for at least 6 months though)
Waterpon
Iron Valiant
Enamorus
Walking Wake
Volcarona

Similar list to the one I posted a month ago, but notably Deoxys-S and Iron Boulder left it, while Waterpon entered inside. Kyurem, Zamazenta and Darkrai are completely fine in my opinion.
Not too optimistic regarding the future of the meta (Bans are not happening), but its for sure a lot better than what SS OU has become since middle 2021. Defensive and Balanced playstyles can be used without resorting to the same Mons again and again (except for a couple ones like Tusk and Corviknight, hazards are still broken) and even though Offense clearly dominates, its not impossible to beat and doesn,t mandate to resort to another (faster) offense to use yourself.

 

[Rekless_Zombie]

Mons that I currently would Ban in no particular order:

Gholdengo
Gliscor
Kingambit
Roaring Moon
Raging Bolt
Gouging Fire (this one for sure is not happening for at least 6 months though)
Waterpon
Iron Valiant
Enamorus
Walking Wake
Volcarona

Great list. I would swap enamorus with kyurem, but that seems to be debatable. Imo enamorus is not even close to an issue mon right now. All the other mons just blatantly increase the power level of the tier to quite extreme levels. I also want to point out a lot of these mons become much more manageable with either a booster or a tera ban... ;)

 

[RaikouLover]

+2 252 Atk Ceruledge Shadow Sneak vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 138-163 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ceruledge: 378-446 (129.8 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 115-136 (22.8 - 26.9%) -- 43.5% chance to 4HKO
+2 252 Atk Ceruledge Poltergeist vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 76-91 (15 - 18%) -- possible 6HKO
0 Atk Dondozo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ceruledge: 206-246 (70.7 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Great 6-0 against stall

And requiring Tera to accomplish anything kinda sucks especially since you're still open to revenge kills afterwards due to your poor speed.

shoutout to tera grass solar blade ceruledge on sun teams. not having shadow sneak unfortunately means you have to rely on weak armor procs a lot more but you beat pretty much all of the standard defensive checks to ceruledge. it's a super potent set but sadly it's even harder to justify using nowadays than it was in DLC1

This guy gets it. Solarblade Ceruledge cleaves through fat. I know the calcs because I’ve used the mon extensively. You drop Poltergeist though. Shadow Sneak is vital. Priority sweeping seems to have fallen out of favor this Gen and I’m not sure why. Revenge killing can only be done consistently by a faster ghost resist, the only three being Moon, Weavile, or Darkrai.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Ceruledge Shadow Sneak vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 199-234 (58.1 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Ceruledge Shadow Sneak vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 296-348 (86.5 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Its pretty easy to grab SDs vs Wake, considering the standard sun team uses Wake, Hatt, and Torkoal and the latter two being complete set up fodder for FF Ceruledge.

 

[viivian]

ogerpon-W definitely deserves a suspect test at this point and i wouldn't mind seeing kyurem retested at some point in the future. kingambit, volcarona and raging bolt also deserve to be carefully monitored as we move forward. anything i didn't mention i just don't think warrants serious discussion for a ban/suspect test but that's probably just me

 

[Duck Chris]

Mons that I currently would Ban in no particular order:

Gholdengo
Gliscor
Kingambit
Roaring Moon
Raging Bolt
Gouging Fire (this one for sure is not happening for at least 6 months though)
Waterpon
Iron Valiant
Enamorus
Walking Wake
Volcarona

Similar list to the one I posted a month ago, but notably Deoxys-S and Iron Boulder left it, while Waterpon entered inside. Kyurem, Zamazenta and Darkrai are completely fine in my opinion.
Not too optimistic regarding the future of the meta (Bans are not happening), but its for sure a lot better than what SS OU has become since middle 2021. Defensive and Balanced playstyles can be used without resorting to the same Mons again and again (except for a couple ones like Tusk and Corviknight, hazards are still broken) and even though Offense clearly dominates, its not impossible to beat and doesn,t mandate to resort to another (faster) offense to use yourself.

I just don't see how anyone can possibly believe things like Enamorus should be banned. It has shown absoutely no tournament success in any notable way, and has a very limited and predictable role on most teams. If you think something like this is overpowered you are just trying to play UU on the OU bracket.

Counterplay comes in a couple flavours for every pokemon. You can use pokemon that resist moves or otherwise "wall" an opposing pokemon: defensive counterplay. For Enamorus that would be Slowking-Galar, bulky Gholdengo, Volcarona, Blissey, or Corviknight.

Now you may say that some of these pokemon can be hit by coverage moves and yes that's true. But it's also true about every pokemon in the entire metagame thanks to tera. But what can you do when someone threatens tera? You threaten back. Offensive counterplay to Enamorus is extremely easy to fit on a team. Revenge killers like Iron Valiant and Raging Bolt paired with Stealth Rocks means Enamorus can't blindly get kills without enabling an opposing sweep. Set up sweepers like volcarona and dragonite can set up if you lock into the wrong move, meaning that choice sets are increasingly risky. And non choice sets get out sped by prominent attackers like Ogerpon and Weavile forcing your teammates to eat strong physical attacks or even risk a setup.

In this way you can see that offensive counterplay can come from a ton of different sources and most teams will have something like this simply by picking six random good pokemon. Defensive counterplay might be a little more specific to fit on a team but depending on your build you have plenty of choices. And that's common to almost all of the pokemon suggested to be banned in this and many other posts. If you simply rely on defensive counterplay on an offensive team then you are going to get steamrolled. Balance is harder to build than offense due to the amount of threats to cover but a well built team (that you build or at least come to know inside and out) will identify its biggest weaknesses and play around them. Just check out srn's latest post in the SPL analysis thread for some examples of teams that have notable holes but still work to cover them through various smaller choices like items, moves, and tera types.

I seriously think the ban everything mentality is lazy and refuses to acknowldge what game we're playing

 

[arnimacarni]

Mons that I currently would Ban in no particular order:

Gholdengo
Gliscor
Kingambit
Roaring Moon
Raging Bolt
Gouging Fire (this one for sure is not happening for at least 6 months though)
Waterpon
Iron Valiant
Enamorus
Walking Wake
Volcarona

Similar list to the one I posted a month ago, but notably Deoxys-S and Iron Boulder left it, while Waterpon entered inside. Kyurem, Zamazenta and Darkrai are completely fine in my opinion.
Not too optimistic regarding the future of the meta (Bans are not happening), but its for sure a lot better than what SS OU has become since middle 2021. Defensive and Balanced playstyles can be used without resorting to the same Mons again and again (except for a couple ones like Tusk and Corviknight, hazards are still broken) and even though Offense clearly dominates, its not impossible to beat and doesn,t mandate to resort to another (faster) offense to use yourself.

I'm not going to say I know more than you, or that no ban is necessary, but at this point it would make sense for you to start petitioning an OM where only mons ranked B+ or below in the VR are allowed. I wouldn't say any one of these are so broken that neither not running them is a disadvantage, nor are they incredibly demanding in the teambuilder. And I'm sorry if this is a defeatist (real archeops moment) attitude, but the meta is so centered around gambit and ghold and shit that banning them at this point would mean a complete erasure of everything built thus far. One can argue for their brokenness, I won't challenge that, but I think it'd be more productive to think SV OU as the meta where Tusk Gambit Ghold and Pult are going to be S-tier, and everything else has to adjust to that.

As someone pointed out recently, I would say that if anything, Gambit's presence is a positive. So much has been developed to stop it (IDBP birds, encore, wisp, sub...) and so much innovation has come not only to Gambit but to others (Tera Ghost for physical setup sweepers, Tera Fire for physical attackers in general, etc...) that I feel that a distinct enough metagame has been created where a certain balance between playstyles has been found. Balance is more viable than ever, and not in a ZapTingGlow kind of boring viable, but in a theres so much to build with kind of viable.

If anything, I'd say the only mon I'd personally ban rn is Kyurem, who you left off your list, but we're all going to disagree on shit. My point is that reshaping the tier in that way is not only not benefitial but also detrimental, and maybe UU is more up your alley (and I mean that in no condescending manner)

 

[MattC (Banned)]

As someone pointed out recently, I would say that if anything, Gambit's presence is a positive. So much has been developed to stop it (IDBP birds, encore, wisp, sub...) and so much innovation has come not only to Gambit but to others (Tera Ghost for physical setup sweepers, Tera Fire for physical attackers in general, etc...) that I feel that a distinct enough metagame has been created where a certain balance between playstyles has been found. Balance is more viable than ever, and not in a ZapTingGlow kind of boring viable, but in a theres so much to build with kind of viable.

Just gonna single this section out because I feel like it's the most important of your argument against "correct bans". I still think Kingambit doesn't deserve to be in OU and the same goes for any of the offensive mons that dropped to OU. You're basically saying we can unban Calyrex Shadow and counterplay will EVENTUALLY be found is your only valid argument for that. No, Calyrex Shadow is way too good even for Ubers to ever be allowed in OU (especially with tera), and the same goes for Kingambit and anything similar. JUST BECAUSE it's been in the tier long enough for some form of counterplay to emerge DOES NOT MEAN it is healthy.

 

[pika pal]

Just gonna single this section out because I feel like it's the most important of your argument against "correct bans". I still think Kingambit doesn't deserve to be in OU and the same goes for any of the offensive mons that dropped to OU. You're basically saying we can unban Calyrex Shadow and counterplay will EVENTUALLY be found is your only valid argument for that. No, Calyrex Shadow is way too good even for Ubers to ever be allowed in OU (especially with tera), and the same goes for Kingambit and anything similar. JUST BECAUSE it's been in the tier long enough for some form of counterplay to emerge DOES NOT MEAN it is healthy.

I feel like this is a bit of a flawed comparison because we have have Kingambit in the tier this long and the counterplay discussed (sufficient or not) has emerged. It's no longer a hypothetical, ignoring the hyperbole of choosing Calyrex-S as your extreme illustration, which I think is ill-fitting even for that purpose since Calyrex even conceptually lacks the traits people argue Kingambit brings in positivity like its defensive utility for Ghosts. To VERY BRIEFLY reference a different Uber (because this is for comparison, I advocate for neither), Lugia and Giratina were talked about because they offered things the tier needed and on the surface DO have offensive and defensive counterplay, limited or otherwise in an OU context.

To argue that Kingambit should still be removed from the tier and that the counterplay that has emerged doesn't change this, you have to prove that the counterplay it possesses is too niche or constraining, not simply appeal to a borderline-absurd comparison and say the counterplay it has doesn't count simply because time and law of averages bore out.

 

[YubelVT]

Mons that I currently would Ban in no particular order:

Gholdengo
Gliscor
Kingambit
Roaring Moon
Raging Bolt
Gouging Fire (this one for sure is not happening for at least 6 months though)
Waterpon
Iron Valiant
Enamorus
Walking Wake
Volcarona

Similar list to the one I posted a month ago, but notably Deoxys-S and Iron Boulder left it, while Waterpon entered inside. Kyurem, Zamazenta and Darkrai are completely fine in my opinion.
Not too optimistic regarding the future of the meta (Bans are not happening), but its for sure a lot better than what SS OU has become since middle 2021. Defensive and Balanced playstyles can be used without resorting to the same Mons again and again (except for a couple ones like Tusk and Corviknight, hazards are still broken) and even though Offense clearly dominates, its not impossible to beat and doesn,t mandate to resort to another (faster) offense to use yourself.

Pokemon I would ban in this exact order:
Kingambit
Raging Bolt
Roaring Moon
Kyurem
Gholdengo
anything that becomes broken because gholdengo leaves
Volcarona
Maybe Waterpon

everything else is (probably) fine but the top 3 NEED to go at minimum

I feel like this is a bit of a flawed comparison because we have have Kingambit in the tier this long and the counterplay discussed (sufficient or not) has emerged. It's no longer a hypothetical, ignoring the hyperbole of choosing Calyrex-S as your extreme illustration, which I think is ill-fitting even for that purpose since Calyrex even conceptually lacks the traits people argue Kingambit brings in positivity like its defensive utility for Ghosts. To VERY BRIEFLY reference a different Uber (because this is for comparison, I advocate for neither), Lugia and Giratina were talked about because they offered things the tier needed and on the surface DO have offensive and defensive counterplay, limited or otherwise in an OU context.

To argue that Kingambit should still be removed from the tier and that the counterplay that has emerged doesn't change this, you have to prove that the counterplay it possesses is too niche or constraining, not simply appeal to a borderline-absurd comparison and say the counterplay it has doesn't count simply because time and law of averages bore out.

My brother in christ there's a good chance a lot of these developments would have happened anyway, Kingambit has completely and utterly warped the meta around him and it shows because EVERY good team has at least 1 fighting or fairy type. A lot of these pokemon would have competition in a kingambitless metagame (I'm 100% convinced that Great Tusk, while remaining very good, would not be top 3 material in a meta without Kingambit). At this point fuck a suspect test, give OU like a month without gambit and then host a vote to see if kingambit should stay gone. If Kingambit's defensive presence is so necessary to the point we're willing to put up with his bullshit for this long, maybe we ban him and then excise the tier.

 

[RS25802580]

I think we're currently in a good place, and we don't need any bans, stuff like pon, moon, kyurem, and others are just good wallbreakers and not broken.

Mons that I currently would Ban in no particular order:

Gholdengo
Gliscor
Kingambit
Roaring Moon
Raging Bolt
Gouging Fire (this one for sure is not happening for at least 6 months though)
Waterpon
Iron Valiant
Enamorus
Walking Wake
Volcarona

Similar list to the one I posted a month ago, but notably Deoxys-S and Iron Boulder left it, while Waterpon entered inside. Kyurem, Zamazenta and Darkrai are completely fine in my opinion.
Not too optimistic regarding the future of the meta (Bans are not happening), but its for sure a lot better than what SS OU has become since middle 2021. Defensive and Balanced playstyles can be used without resorting to the same Mons again and again (except for a couple ones like Tusk and Corviknight, hazards are still broken) and even though Offense clearly dominates, its not impossible to beat and doesn,t mandate to resort to another (faster) offense to use yourself.

The duality of OU forum posters.

 

[East Coast Elite]

My brother in christ there's a good chance a lot of these developments would have happened anyway, Kingambit has completely and utterly warped the meta around him and it shows because EVERY good team has at least 1 fighting or fairy type. A lot of these pokemon would have competition in a kingambitless metagame (I'm 100% convinced that Great Tusk, while remaining very good, would not be top 3 material in a meta without Kingambit). At this point fuck a suspect test, give OU like a month without gambit and then host a vote to see if kingambit should stay gone. If Kingambit's defensive presence is so necessary to the point we're willing to put up with his bullshit for this long, maybe we ban him and then excise the tier.
[/QUOTE]


While I do think we all have a bit of Kingambit Stockholm syndrome. Tusk would still be too 3 without it 1) Tusk isn’t always a consistent gambit check because it’s easily chipped down and usually used early game as a spinner 2) the lack of hazard control in this tier and the sheer role compression tusk has a spinner, knocker, rocker, sweeper, or otherwise.

 

[YubelVT]

While I do think we all have a bit of Kingambit Stockholm syndrome. Tusk would still be too 3 without it 1) Tusk isn’t always a consistent gambit check because it’s easily chipped down and usually used early game as a spinner 2) the lack of hazard control in this tier and the sheer role compression tusk has a spinner, knocker, rocker, sweeper, or otherwise.

You're probably right about tusk actually that was a bit of an exaggeration, but without gambit you would get to go "I can use great tusk OR" instead of "I have to use great tusk AND" which is something I desperately want. Like yeah tusk is probably always gonna be the most optimal pick for that slot but if you need the niche upsides of a different pick you should be able to do that without just losing to the literal most used pokemon in the metagame.

 

[pika pal]

My brother in christ there's a good chance a lot of these developments would have happened anyway, Kingambit has completely and utterly warped the meta around him and it shows because EVERY good team has at least 1 fighting or fairy type. A lot of these pokemon would have competition in a kingambitless metagame (I'm 100% convinced that Great Tusk, while remaining very good, would not be top 3 material in a meta without Kingambit). At this point fuck a suspect test, give OU like a month without gambit and then host a vote to see if kingambit should stay gone. If Kingambit's defensive presence is so necessary to the point we're willing to put up with his bullshit for this long, maybe we ban him and then excise the tier.

This response doesn't really address what the point of my reply was, which is that the Calyrex-Shadow comparison went to an extreme that didn't match in nature, much less magnitude, for the sake of a hyperbolic shock that didn't actually contribute to the conversation. I don't advocate for or against Kingambit very strongly, but I took issue with the argumentation.

On that point, I don't think you're making the argument you think you're making. The claim that these developments would have happened anyway is kind of contradictory to the claim that Kingambit has warped the Meta around him, as the notion that Kingambit warps the meta implies much of its counterplay exists because of it to the point it would not exist in any significant measure with its absence/removal.

Great Tusk is trickier to say because the role compression is just that significant in this Meta, and he deals with or otherwise gives headaches to several other very significant Pokemon depending on move choice like Ting-Lu, Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire, Glowking, Gholdengo, Dragonite (Ice Spinner or a STAB depending on Tera) on top of utility potential. I'd even go the opposite direction and argue that Great Tusk's Kingambit match-up is one of the things masking its potential dominance, since this massive game changer is checked by a mon that it's almost hard NOT to fit onto a team that isn't Stall.

 

[Bold School]

Even without Gambit, we would still need Dark resists and Knock Off absorbers. There are many offensive dark types like Darkrai, Weavile, Roaring Moon, Hamurott, and Meowscarada. After that, there several important potential Tera Dark Knock Off users like Valiant or D-Speed. Even something like Sucker Punch Cinderace. These are all things you would need to contend with. Many of these have high speed and/or priority. Nobody is going to hit the Sucker Punch end game quite like Gambit, but you would still totally need the Dark resists. It's just a very strong offensive typing. This would still increase that value of mons like Tusk and Prim.

Another thing that is very, very good in the current Meta is Encore. Even without Gambit Sucker games, you would still want that for all the setup sweepers and Unaware walls.

My biggest problem with Gambit is how it interacts with Tera. This is something the whole gen has to deal with, but to me Gambit is one of the most egregious abusers of it along side Moon and Volc. You'll often see it come in at a point where your team is battered and it is difficult to scout for the Tera type. What would be checks are no longer checks. Then you lose if the Tera is unfavorable, the turn guessed is wrong, and so on. And I would like to clarify that I don't even support a Gambit ban. But to me, it is one of the mons that most exacerbates the Tera issues and thus makes the tier feel more matchup fishy.

What I tend to do on a lot of my teams is use strong psychic attacks as a lure. My most common ones are Future Sight Glowking and Psycho Boost on D-Speed. It's just kinda nice to be proactive rather than waiting for the end game every time.

 

[RainWaiv]

People need to remember kingambit isn't as egregious a case as Aegislash was in gen 6. They both share similar traits: they're both really centralizing, they have somewhat limited counterplay that bent the whole meta around them, they're both steel types. But while Kingambit provides some positivity in the metagame (bulky steel that resists ghost) Aegislash never really did. All Aegislash did was be good at killing things and not dying (effective 720 bst does that lol). I am not going to say that kingambit is a healthy presence, but i'm DEFINITELY not going to say it's unhealthy.

 

[Heatranator]

People need to remember kingambit isn't as egregious a case as Aegislash was in gen 6. They both share similar traits: they're both really centralizing, they have somewhat limited counterplay that bent the whole meta around them, they're both steel types. But while Kingambit provides some positivity in the metagame (bulky steel that resists ghost) Aegislash never really did. All Aegislash did was be good at killing things and not dying (effective 720 bst does that lol). I am not going to say that kingambit is a healthy presence, but i'm DEFINITELY not going to say it's unhealthy.

I don't think anything will be as egregious as gen 6 aegislash, though I do see what comparison you are trying to make in that they both cause 50/50s.
Also, people in Gen 6 said aegislash apparently 'didn't hit that hard because shadow ball only has 80bp', which was always a BS statement because it was off 150 sp.attack which hit hard and was mostly unresisted. But I don't think people are saying that about gambit.

 

[arnimacarni]

Just gonna single this section out because I feel like it's the most important of your argument against "correct bans". I still think Kingambit doesn't deserve to be in OU and the same goes for any of the offensive mons that dropped to OU. You're basically saying we can unban Calyrex Shadow and counterplay will EVENTUALLY be found is your only valid argument for that. No, Calyrex Shadow is way too good even for Ubers to ever be allowed in OU (especially with tera), and the same goes for Kingambit and anything similar. JUST BECAUSE it's been in the tier long enough for some form of counterplay to emerge DOES NOT MEAN it is healthy.

Piggybacking on pika pal response, one, I'm not saying you could drop Calyrex-Shadow. Two, I'm saying you totally could drop Calyrex-Shadow; tiering is not a natural state of matter. It doesn't happen by the grace of the gods. It happens because we agree on something. We agree that a certain power level can be reached, and a certain point beyond that is no longer desirable so we ban it. I think that banning certain mons is necessary because they're centralizing, but I also think that at a certain point, something will become the #1 mon in the tier, and the rest of the metagame will more or less form itself around it. Is Gambit going to be the #1 mon in SV OU? Then you have all the ways of countering it that I previously mentioned. Is Calyrex-Shadow going to be the #1 mon in SV OU? Well first of all skill issue because it gets destroyed by sucker punch lul but seriously, the point is that if Caly-S was allowed, the meta would form around it. Would it be a good meta? No, it would probably suck balls. But we gotta make the effort to remember that what we do here is artificial

Do I think it is completely unreasonable that Gambit is broken? No, I think the case can be made. I'm just saying that if you ban Gambit, the whole tier is going to crumble. If you ban Gambit, Pult and Ghold become incredibly strong. You would need to find a new Ghost resist(s). Moltres-G for OU? and then if the ghosts get banned, Enam would be next, and then Wake and then IVal... There's always going to be a point of reference for the strategies we build. Im no pro at teambuilding, but if I showed you a team with five Slush Rush mons, even if it was the best team conceptually that you've ever seen, you'd say "hey snow is not really viable this gen because a b and c". For a less goofy example, if I brought a Regen-core a la gen8, it might be a good team, but it is not a good team for the meta. When we say something is a good team, it is because it fits the meta. That's why it was so cool to see that guy who reached top500 with incineroar, dude understood the meta and found a new tool to play around it. It wasn't like a VGC incineroar set, it was a set built for SV OU. Everything is relative and like it or not Gambit is #1. I feel like something solid has been built from Gambit and banning it would be undoing the work of months

 

[Heatranator]

Piggybacking on pika pal response, one, I'm not saying you could drop Calyrex-Shadow. Two, I'm saying you totally could drop Calyrex-Shadow; tiering is not a natural state of matter. It doesn't happen by the grace of the gods. It happens because we agree on something. We agree that a certain power level can be reached, and a certain point beyond that is no longer desirable so we ban it. I think that banning certain mons is necessary because they're centralizing, but I also think that at a certain point, something will become the #1 mon in the tier, and the rest of the metagame will more or less form itself around it. Is Gambit going to be the #1 mon in SV OU? Then you have all the ways of countering it that I previously mentioned. Is Calyrex-Shadow going to be the #1 mon in SV OU? Well first of all skill issue because it gets destroyed by sucker punch lul but seriously, the point is that if Caly-S was allowed, the meta would form around it. Would it be a good meta? No, it would probably suck balls. But we gotta make the effort to remember that what we do here is artificial

Do I think it is completely unreasonable that Gambit is broken? No, I think the case can be made. I'm just saying that if you ban Gambit, the whole tier is going to crumble. If you ban Gambit, Pult and Ghold become incredibly strong. You would need to find a new Ghost resist(s). Moltres-G for OU? and then if the ghosts get banned, Enam would be next, and then Wake and then IVal... There's always going to be a point of reference for the strategies we build. Im no pro at teambuilding, but if I showed you a team with five Slush Rush mons, even if it was the best team conceptually that you've ever seen, you'd say "hey snow is not really viable this gen because a b and c". For a less goofy example, if I brought a Regen-core a la gen8, it might be a good team, but it is not a good team for the meta. When we say something is a good team, it is because it fits the meta. That's why it was so cool to see that guy who reached top500 with incineroar, dude understood the meta and found a new tool to play around it. It wasn't like a VGC incineroar set, it was a set built for SV OU. Everything is relative and like it or not Gambit is #1. I feel like something solid has been built from Gambit and banning it would be undoing the work of months

I don't like this 'if we ban a mon, then other things will become broken' argument, that is just broken checks broken in a different suit. If these mons are only kept in check because gambit checks them, I would say they are broken regardless. We don't tier with account for collateral (or at least, we shouldn't) because eventually nothing gets banned because people are scared with repercussions. If something shows as broken after a mon gets banned, we deal with the repercussions. For example, we banned arch despite the fact it kept a lot of mons such as gouging in check. We still suspected gouging when it showed itself as broken in many people's eyes. Of course, counterplay surfaced (in my eyes, not enough counterplay) and the same will most likely happen if gambit is banned. We aren't necessarily lacking dark types, we have 6 already without gambit and stuff like goltres could rise.

 

[Moyashi]

Do I think it is completely unreasonable that Gambit is broken? No, I think the case can be made. I'm just saying that if you ban Gambit, the whole tier is going to crumble. If you ban Gambit, Pult and Ghold become incredibly strong. You would need to find a new Ghost resist(s). Moltres-G for OU? and then if the ghosts get banned, Enam would be next, and then Wake and then IVal...

This is a ridiculous and unfounded statement. Gambit is not the only Pokémon keeping ghost types in check, but more importantly, the tier wouldn’t magically fall apart if Gambit were banned. Now I don’t believe Gambit is the biggest issue in the tier atm, I don’t think tiering action is needed so far. But the suggestion that Gambit alone keeps the meta together is ridiculous and, if it were true, would just hint of a deeper issue with the tier.

 

[arnimacarni]

This is a ridiculous and unfounded statement. Gambit is not the only Pokémon keeping ghost types in check, but more importantly, the tier wouldn’t magically fall apart if Gambit were banned. Now I don’t believe Gambit is the biggest issue in the tier atm, I don’t think tiering action is needed so far. But the suggestion that Gambit alone keeps the meta together is ridiculous and, if it were true, would just hint of a deeper issue with the tier.

I will retract myself because it is true that that argument is a bit unfounded. My point is more that Gambit is #1 and things are built around it, and if it's not Gambit then another mon is going to be #1 and things would be built around it too. I know that Gambit is very particular, but I'm trying to say that 11 bans to balance a developed meta doesn't seem reasonable in the slightest to me

 

[viivian]

Pokemon I would ban in this exact order:
Kingambit
Raging Bolt
Roaring Moon
Kyurem
Gholdengo
anything that becomes broken because gholdengo leaves
Volcarona
Maybe Waterpon

everything else is (probably) fine but the top 3 NEED to go at minimum

how is ogerpon is a "maybe" despite being worse for the meta than all 3? like there's no way you're telling me roaring moon should be prioritized over this thing

My brother in christ there's a good chance a lot of these developments would have happened anyway, Kingambit has completely and utterly warped the meta around him and it shows because EVERY good team has at least 1 fighting or fairy type.

every good team already had a fairy type well before kingambit even existed, and a lot of good teams definitely did not mind packing a fighting type either. i don't see an issue here

A lot of these pokemon would have competition in a kingambitless metagame (I'm 100% convinced that Great Tusk, while remaining very good, would not be top 3 material in a meta without Kingambit).

great tusk is literally the best hazard removal in competitive singles history, and in a metagame with limited options for hazard removal i think it's here to stay as a top 3 pokemon regardless of whether or not kingambit leaves the tier