Ultra Sun & Moon OU Analysis Discussion

Colonel M

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There appears to have been a slight typo made in the set details when the Heatran analysis was edited: 252 Speed EVs are mentioned in the set itself, while 248 are mentioned in Set Details.
First sentence is for the main spread on the analysis. The second mention is supposed to be for the Modest spread's min Speed.

I'll try fixing it later today to be more clear. Tomorrow at the latest.

EDIT: Made the fix. Here's how it reads:

Maximum Speed with a Timid nature allow Heatran to outspeed Jolly Tapu Bulu. The given HP and Defense EVs give Heatran a balance of defenses while decreasing the chances of Mega Sableye breaking Heatran's Substitute 31.25% of the time. If outspeeding Jolly Tapu Bulu is of no concern, 32 Special Attack EVs and a Modest nature allow Heatran to defeat Toxapex with the combination of Earth Power and Magma Storm's residual effect. In the Modest spread 248 Speed EVs let Heatran outpace neutral-natured Mega Heracross and Tapu Bulu while also outpacing Timid Magearna.
 

Martin

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I'd rather not make an update myself, but when checking out the way I needed to go about fixing a weird in set details of the sub set on the Heatran analysis I realised that the listed EV spread doesn't actually do what it says in set details.

The given HP and Defense EVs give Heatran a balance of defenses while decreasing the chances of Mega Sableye breaking Heatran's Substitute 31.25% of the time.
^ currently implies that there is only a 31.25% chance that the chance of its sub being broken is lower than it would otherwise be, which is just like ?????

When deciding how to re-word this, I ran the calcs to see what the sentence meant to say only to be left with this calc:

Listed spread: 0 Atk Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 212 HP / 44 Def Heatran: 76-90 (20.2 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

In order to ensure that there is a 0% chance for Sableye's KOff to break Heatran's substitute (i.e. a better rate than the inaccurate one listed in the text), only 216 HP EVs is required; the listed spread overshoots this substantially.

0 Atk Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 79-94 (20.9 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Does the listed defense investment achieve something else entirely, or is the analysis spread incorrect? If the latter, what should it be changed to?
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I'd rather not make an update myself, but when checking out the way I needed to go about fixing a weird in set details of the sub set on the Heatran analysis I realised that the listed EV spread doesn't actually do what it says in set details.


^ currently implies that there is only a 31.25% chance that the chance of its sub being broken is lower than it would otherwise be, which is just like ?????

When deciding how to re-word this, I ran the calcs to see what the sentence meant to say only to be left with this calc:

Listed spread: 0 Atk Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 212 HP / 44 Def Heatran: 76-90 (20.2 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

In order to ensure that there is a 0% chance for Sableye's KOff to break Heatran's substitute (i.e. a better rate than the inaccurate one listed in the text), only 216 HP EVs is required; the listed spread overshoots this substantially.

0 Atk Sableye Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 216 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 79-94 (20.9 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

Does the listed defense investment achieve something else entirely, or is the analysis spread incorrect? If the latter, what should it be changed to?
You have regular Sableye. This is the ckrrect calculation:

0 Atk Sableye-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 212 HP / 44 Def Heatran: 84-99 (22.3 - 26.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
(84, 84, 85, 87, 87, 88, 90, 90, 91, 93, 93, 94, 96, 96, 97, 99)

Note the damage rolls as well for the chances.
 
I really don´t see a reason for Jirachi not to run 64 speed EVs for outspeeding Timid Magearna, those 8 extra EVs really won´t make a difference in Bulk.
 
Made a quick to do list:

Alakazam
- None

Bisharp
- None

Celesteela
- Possibly give Physically Defensive Celesteela and Physical Autotomize sets.

Chansey
- lol

Mega Charizard X
- Replace Thunder Punch slash with Earthquake.

Mega Charizard Y
- Mention the real reason why Fire Blast isn't preferred which is PP.
- Remove Porygon-Z mention.

Clefable
- Remove Calm Mind slash, at least for now.

Dugtrio
- Possibly make Groundium Z Trapper first.
- Heavier mentions of Mega Charizard Y in Team Options.
- Mentioning an Adamant nature, possibly even slashing it in on the Choice Scarf set.

Excadrill
- Placing Swords Dance in front of Rapid Spin.
- Heavier mentions of Rockium Z and Steelium Z.

Ferrothorn
- Mentioning dual hazards in the actual set.

Garchomp
- This analysis could use a revamp to be honest, since it is outdated,
- Offensive Stealth Rock > Choice Scarf > Swords Dance + 3 Attacks (though last two sets can be argued in terms of order)
- Dragonium Z as first and only slash on Offensive Stealth Rock.
- Remove Rock Slide from Choice Scarf.
- Place TankChomp in Other Options.

Mega Garchomp
- None.

Gengar
- Lighten up the Overview since Gengar is average at the moment.
- Offensive Utility > Choice Specs.
- Mention Electrium Z.

Greninja
- Add Dark Pulse on the Spikes set.
- Spikes > Choice Scarf > All-out Attacker (this can be argued once again).
- Remove Water Shuriken from Other Options.
- Add Keldeo to C&C.

Ash-Greninja
- Make Spikes the first slash in the 4th slot.

Heatran
- Possibly placing Choice Scarf in Other Options.

Mega Heracross
- None.

Hoopa-U
- Unexplored Pokemon.

Jirachi
- Possibly remove the Wish set.

Kartana
- None.

Keldeo
- Possibly add a Calm Mind set.

Kyurem-B
- None.

Landorus-T
- Add Protect to the Defensive set.

Latios
- Possibly remove Choice Specs.

Magearna
- Add defensive Calm Mind to Other Options.

Magnezone
- Place Choice Specs in Other Options.

Manaphy
- In progress.

Mega Manectric
- None.

Alolan Marowak
- Possibly make Rock Head first.
- Stress its powerful niche in breaking most variants of stall.

Mega Mawile
- Make Swords Dance the first set (though this can be argued). Thunder Punch before Knock Off as well.
- Make Intimidate the first and only slash.

Mega Medicham
- Mention Double-Edge.

Mew
- Update EV spread.

Mimikyu
- Deslash Ghostium Z.

Nihilego
- In progress.

Alolan Ninetales
- Slash in Hail.
- Rework, if not completely re-do, Team Options

Mega Pinsir
- Deslash Close Combat.

Rotom-W
- Slash Wiki Berry.

Mega Sableye
- Remove Dragonite, Ash-Greninja, and Gengar from Team Options.
- Update EV spread.

Mega Scizor
- None.

Scolipede
- None.

Skarmory
- None.

Smeargle
- Remove mentions of Mega Metagross.
- Slash in Spore before Skill Swap.
- Replace Memento with Magic Coat.

Tangrowth
- Add Sludge Bomb into the Physically Defensive set.

Tapu Bulu
- Deslash Megahorn from Choice Band.

Tapu Fini
- Update EV spreads.
- Lighten up the Overview.

Tapu Koko
- None.

Tapu Lele
- Choice Scarf > All-out Attacker > Choice Specs

Toxapex
- Mention Infestation.

Tyranitar
- In progress.

Mega Tyranitar
- In progress.

Mega Venusaur
- None.

Volcarona
- The analysis looks very odd and disorganized.
- Mention Bug Buzz and Buginium Z.

Zapdos
- Mention Max SpA / Max Spe, Timid, Electrium Z.

Zygarde
- None.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Made a quick to do list:

Alakazam
- None

Bisharp
- None

Celesteela
- Possibly give Physically Defensive Celesteela and Physical Autotomize sets.

Chansey
- lol

Mega Charizard X
- Replace Thunder Punch slash with Earthquake.

Mega Charizard Y
- Mention the real reason why Fire Blast isn't preferred which is PP.
- Remove Porygon-Z mention.

Clefable
- Remove Calm Mind slash, at least for now.

Dugtrio
- Possibly make Groundium Z Trapper first.
- Heavier mentions of Mega Charizard Y in Team Options.
- Mentioning an Adamant nature, possibly even slashing it in on the Choice Scarf set.

Excadrill
- Placing Swords Dance in front of Rapid Spin.
- Heavier mentions of Rockium Z and Steelium Z.

Ferrothorn
- Mentioning dual hazards in the actual set.

Garchomp
- This analysis could use a revamp to be honest, since it is outdated,
- Offensive Stealth Rock > Choice Scarf > Swords Dance + 3 Attacks (though last two sets can be argued in terms of order)
- Dragonium Z as first and only slash on Offensive Stealth Rock.
- Remove Rock Slide from Choice Scarf.
- Place TankChomp in Other Options.

Mega Garchomp
- None.

Gengar
- Lighten up the Overview since Gengar is average at the moment.
- Offensive Utility > Choice Specs.
- Mention Electrium Z.

Greninja
- Add Dark Pulse on the Spikes set.
- Spikes > Choice Scarf > All-out Attacker (this can be argued once again).
- Remove Water Shuriken from Other Options.
- Add Keldeo to C&C.

Ash-Greninja
- Make Spikes the first slash in the 4th slot.

Heatran
- Possibly placing Choice Scarf in Other Options.

Mega Heracross
- None.

Hoopa-U
- Unexplored Pokemon.

Jirachi
- Possibly remove the Wish set.

Kartana
- None.

Keldeo
- Possibly add a Calm Mind set.

Kyurem-B
- None.

Landorus-T
- Add Protect to the Defensive set.

Latios
- Possibly remove Choice Specs.

Magearna
- Add defensive Calm Mind to Other Options.

Magnezone
- Place Choice Specs in Other Options.

Manaphy
- In progress.

Mega Manectric
- None.

Alolan Marowak
- Possibly make Rock Head first.
- Stress its powerful niche in breaking most variants of stall.

Mega Mawile
- Make Swords Dance the first set (though this can be argued). Thunder Punch before Knock Off as well.
- Make Intimidate the first and only slash.

Mega Medicham
- Mention Double-Edge.

Mew
- Update EV spread.

Mimikyu
- Deslash Ghostium Z.

Nihilego
- In progress.

Alolan Ninetales
- Slash in Hail.
- Rework, if not completely re-do, Team Options

Mega Pinsir
- Deslash Close Combat.

Rotom-W
- Slash Wiki Berry.

Mega Sableye
- Remove Dragonite, Ash-Greninja, and Gengar from Team Options.
- Update EV spread.

Mega Scizor
- None.

Scolipede
- None.

Skarmory
- None.

Smeargle
- Remove mentions of Mega Metagross.
- Slash in Spore before Skill Swap.
- Replace Memento with Magic Coat.

Tangrowth
- Add Sludge Bomb into the Physically Defensive set.

Tapu Bulu
- Deslash Megahorn from Choice Band.

Tapu Fini
- Update EV spreads.
- Lighten up the Overview.

Tapu Koko
- None.

Tapu Lele
- Choice Scarf > All-out Attacker > Choice Specs

Toxapex
- Mention Infestation.

Tyranitar
- In progress.

Mega Tyranitar
- In progress.

Mega Venusaur
- None.

Volcarona
- The analysis looks very odd and disorganized.
- Mention Bug Buzz and Buginium Z.

Zapdos
- Mention Max SpA / Max Spe, Timid, Electrium Z.

Zygarde
- None.
Some of these we were already aware of and were in the process of changing but thank you for the rest of this anyway.
 

S. Court

[Takes hits in Spanish]
is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
So, I was reading Mega Camerupt analysis, when I saw this

upload_2017-7-15_11-5-10.png


It's just a minor question, but does that Araquanid has some viability in OU? Should it be added to viability rank? if that's not the case, Should Araquanid be removed from this section?
 
So, I was reading Mega Camerupt analysis, when I saw this

View attachment 85386

It's just a minor question, but does that Araquanid has some viability in OU? Should it be added to viability rank? if that's not the case, Should Araquanid be removed from this section?
Well, Araquanid is not really viable on SM OU, but it does have a niche in Trick Room teams, thanks to Water Bubble, and since the analysis is mentioning Trick Room parters, I feel like its good for Araq to be mentioned
 
Jirachi's Choice Scarf set still has a mention of Mega Metagross in it. I'm not sure if the people that be are aware of this / have gotten to it yet, but I figured I would say it just in case (also bc MegaGross has been banned for quite a while). I know Vertex listed some things that could be changed and Gary acknowledged that, but the specific mention of MegaGross was not on Vertex's list for Jirachi.
 

S. Court

[Takes hits in Spanish]
is a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
Well, Araquanid is not really viable on SM OU, but it does have a niche in Trick Room teams, thanks to Water Bubble, and since the analysis is mentioning Trick Room parters, I feel like its good for Araq to be mentioned
I understand, but Uxie is only viable in Trick Room teams and it's ranked and it has an analysis, should Araquanid being considered in the same way?

Again, It's not a formal nomination (I find Araquanid role as a water attacker in Trick Room outclassed by Crawdaunt and well, this is not the place for nominations) I just find this inconsitency a little weird
 
I understand, but Uxie is only viable in Trick Room teams and it's ranked and it has an analysis, should Araquanid being considered in the same way?

Again, It's not a formal nomination (I find Araquanid role as a water attacker in Trick Room outclassed by Crawdaunt and well, this is not the place for nominations) I just find this inconsitency a little weird
Anything on the OU Viability Rankings gets an analyses, and Araquanid is not on there, therefore it does not have an analyses. It's almost entirely outclassed by Crawdaunt, which has a better offensive typing and is stronger in general, which is a large part of why it isn't ranked.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Jirachi's Choice Scarf set still has a mention of Mega Metagross in it. I'm not sure if the people that be are aware of this / have gotten to it yet, but I figured I would say it just in case (also bc MegaGross has been banned for quite a while). I know Vertex listed some things that could be changed and Gary acknowledged that, but the specific mention of MegaGross was not on Vertex's list for Jirachi.
I put in a change for it, so it will probably be fixed by sometime tomorrow. Thanks!
 
I've heard that some people began to run Z-Wild Charge Tapu Koko to beat Chansey. (Probably just a rumor of a user). Is this true? If yes, it should be included in the analysis I guess.
 
I've heard that some people began to run Z-Wild Charge Tapu Koko to beat Chansey. (Probably just a rumor of a user). Is this true? If yes, it should be included in the analysis I guess.
There's already an analysis in progress for this set (if not completed, I don't recall)

EDIT: Just checked its already on the site :P
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Yeah I planned to add Scarf today if possible - tomorrow at the latest. I also was going to add Rock Slide to OO for Mega Camerupt since it does 85 min to Charti Volcarona and can survive almost anything at +1 except Shattered Psyche (well... barely... as in Stealth Rock OHKOes).
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Speaking of Spore, I think Lovely Kiss should be mentioned in OO, if only so that shit like Kartana can't just set up in Smeargle's face without having to deal with the speed drop from webs, which is especially useful on builds which lack faster 'mons like Thundy or whatever which can KO it. Thoughts on this?
 
Speaking of Spore, I think Lovely Kiss should be mentioned in OO, if only so that shit like Kartana can't just set up in Smeargle's face without having to deal with the speed drop from webs, which is especially useful on builds which lack faster 'mons like Thundy or whatever which can KO it. Thoughts on this?
If Dark Void was an option last gen, i don't think it would be a bad idea to give Lovely Kiss a simple mention in the OO.
 

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