Stall/CounterStall

[Lazyboy]

Hey guys, been working on this team a while now and it's been doing pretty well, so I thought i'd share it. This team was originally a fully fledged stall team. then I remembered how much I hated the Stall V Stall matchup. So this monstrosity before you was me trying to make a (semi-)stall team that could wreck other stall teams. Tell me what you think..

Skarmory (Aerosmith) @ Lum Berry
252 HP/164 Def/96 Spe
Careful Nature
- Roost
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Whirlwind

Lead Skarm works pretty well on this team, lets have a look at the lead matchups...

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Azelf: Skarmory can't do anything itself, so I just go to Tyranitar as Azelf either Taunts or Fire Blasts, aiming for Skarmory. From there I usually Crunch it as most don't switch anticipating Pursuit. It'll set up SR, but this isn't too much of a problem.

Metagross: Not much of a pain, luckily. I generally Taunt to nullify set up chances and then proceed to Spike-stack. Sometimes, I may change this and just go all-out Spike-stacking. If I do, and it lays Stealth Rock, then I go to Rotom-h just in case it Explodes.

Jirachi: Effort is not required. Just Spike on turn one - Skarmory doesn't mind Choice Scarf too much. If they end up being Thunder Wave leads, then I already have a layer of Spikes up, with negated Thunder Wave thanks to Lum Berry, and I can go to either heatran or tentacruel, who both don't mind paralysis and wall rachi.

Aerodactyl: Without Starmie, this lead has become a bit more of a problem, I'll usually go to Rotom-H for the 2hko, but this leaves rotom-H very prone to breing either trapped or setup on, puts me on the back foot straight away but hey, it's not the end of the world

Swampert: Skarmory will Taunt it as it uses Stealth Rock and proceed to set up Spikes from there. It cannot do anything notable back to me unless it carries Hydro Pump, in which case I go to Starmie who can wear it down while recovering off the damage.

Smeargle: Smeargle used Spore.
Skarmory fell asleep.
Skarmory's Lum Berry cured its sleep!
Skarmory used Taunt.
Smeargle fell for the Taunt!

Infernape: Straight to Tenta, who shrugs off napes attacks and can 2hko with Surf + rapid spin

Roserade: Roserade used Sleep Powder
Skarmory fell asleep.
Skarmory's Lum Berry cured its sleep!
Skarmory used Taunt.
Roserade fell for the Taunt!
Skarmory used Spikes.

Still if it then uses Hidden Power Fire, then I go to Heatran and continue setting up. Toxic spikes aren't a real problem for this team, seeing as only 1 member are affected by them and Tenta can absorb them.

Ninjask: Taunt first turn. Worst case scenario is they protect and get to pass +1 speed and I get 1 layer of spikes, which this team is pretty capable of dealing with. Best case scenario is my slower taunt means 1 free layer of spikes right off the bat, which is always nice.

Heatran: Tenta handles Heatran pretty well. If Heatran predicts my switch and SRs first turn I'll usually rapid spin as it switches out (LO HP Grass won't Ohko). Otherwise I'll just Surf from there (I'll only set up Tspikes if I now I'll need them, otherwise it's a waste).

Machamp: The one downside of using Whirlwind over BB, now all I can do to machamp is eat a Dpunch and pHaze is...oh well between residual damage and it switching into attacks, it usually gets put into KO range pretty quickly

Empoleon: Tenta deals with these things alot better than starmie did, regardless of move choice. I can either setup Tspikes or just chip it's health away whilst keeping SR off the field

Whirlwind over Brave Bird and a specially defensive spread fixes a lot of holes in the team, mainly to offensive suicune and DDtar

Heatran (Mordor) @ Leftovers
252 HP/ 4 Def/ 252 Sp.def
Calm Nature
- Lava Plume
- Protect
- Roar
- Stealth Rock

Specially Defensive Tran, my lord I love this guy (no homo). This monster walls a lot of special attackers, gengar, togekiss, celebi, shaymin (It can live a LO Earth power if needs be). It's also the master of anti-hax. Tired of being flinched to death by rachi? Togekiss got you down? Not with this guy, even a +2 Aura sphere will fail to KO him, meaning you can roar at will. It's alos my 2nd Dragon resist, just in case i need to wall random outrages/DMs. Considering switching Heatran for Subroost Zapdos w/ Roar, needs more testing though

Tyranitar (Godzilla) @ Babiri Berry
252 Atk/ 16 Sp.atk/ 240 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Crunch
- Flamethrower
- Pursuit
- Superpower

My first weapon against stall. Usually stall teams run scarftar, but this can catch all teams off guard. Lucario, Skarmory (Sp.def Skarm is 3hko'd, but it means it's only 1 layer of spikes, and I can spin if needed). It can also stop Luke from sweeping me which is always good, as my teams a little weak to it. Babiri berry was chose so I can lure in Scizor, which is useful because it means I can be a bit more liberal with Rotom-H. It also means I can unleash my secret weapon... but we'll get to that later ;)

Tentacruel (JellyBelly) @ Leftovers
252 HP/ 120 Def/ 136 Sp.def
Calm Nature
-Ice Beam
-Rapid Spin
-Surf
-Toxic Spikes

Tenta makes his appearance in place of Starmie. This was to reduce the weakness to pursuit users, particularly Snorlax who Starmie coulnd't touch. He also lays toxic spikes which is always a plus when dealing with offensive water and grass types. He may lose a little bit of power, but with TTar pursuiting, he doesn't really need to be able to KO ghosts. Switched to Ice Beam to beat other grass types if they're leech seeding me, plus it stop Dnite setting up.. Generally pleased with this change, the only slight problem is lack of reliable recovery, but Tenta can usually outlast pokes once they're subjected to this much residual damage

Rotom-w (Voltergeist) @ Choice Scarf
252 HP/ 32 Sp.atk/ 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Trick
- Will-o-wisp

This guy is the spinblocker of choice, but I think my set may take some explaining. The EVs were just to maximise bulk first, seeing as i want him to stay alive as long as possible. then I noticed my team was a bit weak to SubPetaya Emp, so I thought I'd scarf him. 224 speed is just enough to outspeed Emp at +2, with the rest dumped in Sp.atk (which is still enough to get all the necessary KO's, bar lucario). Finally, choice scarf + w-o-w may seem a bit odd, but it makes more sense than you think. Sometimes I need Rotom to check more than one threat, for example, with trick + w-o-w I can check both curselax and Adamant Luke, by tricking the former and burning the latter. W-o-w also gives me a way to beat scarftar/bandscizor trying to trap me. Changed to Rotom-W, just to deter TTar/Heatran from switching in so hastily

Aerodactyl (Jurassic) @ Life Orb
12 HP/ 252 Atk/ 244 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Roost
- Stone Edge
- Taunt

Aero not in the lead position? Aero on a defensive team? MADNESS!!!...well no. I look at him as a culmination between Scarftar (only faster) and Stallbreaker Gliscor. Sure he doesn't trap ghosts and psychic types like Tyranitar but...Tyranitar does that. He checks and revenges a multitude of threats, such as infernape (bar priority), lucario, DDtar, Adamant Dragonite and Adamant Gyarados. He also has some pretty beastly defense in sandstorm, he's an amazing switch to heatran (even specs heatrans overheat won't KO after SR). Finally, it messes up stall. Skarm can't wall you and you can wear it down with Stone Edge, roosting to keep your Hp up. Hippo can't do anything to you either. In fact the only pokes that can actaully stop this that are commonly seen on stall are Rotom-A and gyarados (can't switch in on Stone Edge though). As for offense, Scizor, Flygon, Breloom and random scarfers can cause this set problems. Scizor and Breloom are lured by TTar, and Scarf Flygon and Scarf Rachi are walled by Skarm and Heatran respectively. Changed the spread to outspeed neutral natured Gyara/Dnite at +1, acting as a backup check to them if Skarm/Rotom-A are trapped or weakened

Threat List

Offensive Suicune can seriously damage my team. My best bet is going to rotom-H and wearing it down, which is hardly ideal if I want to keep my hazards up. With the new Sp.def Skarm and Tenta laying toxic spikes, this is much less of a threat now, as it gets pHaze'd by Skarm which usually puts it into KO range for Aero

Tyranitar isn't too much of a threat, but DD variants can be tricky. With the inclusion of whirlwind on Skarm, they become even less tricky, however a combination of taunt + lum TTar could still be a problem, although a very rare one. Aero can still revenge it at +1

Ugh, it seems every team I make ends up having problems with Stallbreaker Gliscor (mainly because they're all stall teams lol). With Starmie gone, my only real hope of beating this guy is switching to Aero on a roost or an EQ, anything else and I'm in serious trouble. Rotom-H can trick it, but this usually leads to rotom-H getting Toxic'd, and that's never a good thing considering how much this team relies on him. With the new changes, this guy is public enemy #1

Can't think of any others at the moment, but I've probably missed something. Anyway, let me know what you think of the team. Any improvements would be appreciated. Cheers guys

 

[Gideon]

You are kind of weak to pursuit as Starmie and Rotom-h both die to TTar. Starmie isn't doing much with surf, because of the boost and your lack of sp atk. ev's. If Rotom-H is locked into any other move other than WOW, it's fucked. So I say switch your Starmie to Tentacruel. It still spins and also lays T spikes which is another pain for stall. You a little weaker to Gyarados, but Rotom-H revenges all versions, and Aero revenges adamant ones.

Tentacruel@Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Ooze
Nature: Calm
Ev's: 252 Hp/120 Def/136 Sp Def
Toxic Spikes
Rapid Spin
Surf
Sludge Bomb/Hidden Power Electric

You can tweak the ev's to your liking. This is just Smogon's recommended spread. HP Electric could work for you if you are scared of Gyara. Good luck with the team.

 

[george182]

Nice team, I'm a big fan of bulky W-o-W scarf rotom, work really well against stall with trick. I also like the use of defencive Skarm, a very underrated set at the moment.

Firstly Im not a big fan of mix tyranitar, its quite gimmicky, a bit luck reliant and is reliant on coverage. It also lacks power against offensive teams. Aerodactly is a very nice pokemon offensively, but its not that great on the defencive part which is where this team struggles slightly. On the special side you have problems with Special water types such as Suicune, Starmie and Vaporeon as well as Sub Split Gengar. On the physical side pokemon such as Bullet punch Lucario (if rotom is weakened), Brelloom, Tyranitar and Dragonite can be problematic.

To avoid this I recommend going down the full stall route using Blissey and Hippowdon over Tyraniar and Swampert.

Blissey@ Leftovers
Bold
252hp/252defence/4 special defence
- Flamethrower
- Toxic
- Wish/Softboiled
- Protect/Heal bell

Flamethrower is needed to break Gengar subs and you have pokemon that want to be S-tossed covered by Heatran and Hippowdon. Toxic is not needed but works well with Flamethrower. You then have a choice between Wish with Protect or Softboild with Heal bell. As starmie has natural cure you don't need Heal bell to remove the status from your rapid spinner, therefore I recommend Wish with Protect. However Softboiled with Heal bell is also really good. For the ev's I'm not really sure on Blissey, usually I max out Hp and Defence, and after testing if I find more special attack/defence is needed I just boost them up some more.

Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Impish
252hp/252 defence/4 special defence
- Stealth rocks
- Earthquake
- Slack off
- Roar

If you use this set I would make Heatran a rest talker with roar, having two phazors is really useful against opposing stall. Max defence for Brelloom, Lucario and Tyranitar. Brelloom is better handled by Skarmory and Rotom though. You could move this to the lead position if you wanted sandstorm and stealth rocks up early on and Skarmory is quite a valuable team member.

I know you said you hate the stall vs stall matchup, but I think that is the route to go with this team and with more phasers you should have less trouble :S Restalk Heatran with spikes is also an absolute boss against stall at the moment.

P.s. I also recommend maxing out speed on Starmie, it helps against oposing Starmies if you predict that it will be safe to stay in (increasing your chances of survival and all that good stuff).

 

[BKC]

This is a really good team! However, as you mentioned, offensive Suicune is pretty hard for you to deal with. Your only way of dealing with it is tricking it Rotom's scarf, but that leaves you open to being swept by threats like DD Dragonite. DD Shuca Tyranitar is also really hard to deal with because it can take an EQ from Aerodactyl, DD again, and proceed to sweep you clean.

Fortunately, this is pretty easy to fix; shift Skarm to a full-out specially defensive spread and drop Brave Bird for Whirlwind. Suicune can't KO you even with a +1 Hydro Pump while you phaze it out and make it take more hazard damage; same with Tyranitar. Late-game, pick them off with Aerodactyl. Taunt + Whirlwind is also really good at putting even more hurt on stall teams. Unfortunately, you lose some coverage on lead Machamp, but luckily those are getting rare due to the prevalence of anti-leads meant to defeat it.

Finally, try running a spread of 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe on Aero. It gives you alot more bulk, a Life Orb number, and the ability to outrun Scarftar + everything below. Speed tying with Jolteon / Crobat / other Aeros isn't important because you've got solid counters to each of them.

Great team, gl!

 

[Tomahawk]

Hey, nice team, I know how good Aerodactyl is on a sand stall team from experience.

Not a lot of threats besides Suicune mainly and Dragon Dance Tyranitar. Tyranitar also seems the odd man out, doing nothing besides setting up sand for Aerodactyl, and helping against stall even though you already have Aerodactyl, Starmie, Skarmory and Rotom-H. So, I recommend that you try Hippowdon over Tyranitar, with SubRoost Zapdos. It will change your team a lot for just two threats, but it might be beneficial. In any case, Hippowdon will counter Tyranitar easily, taking any attack and Earthquaking it for the KO (or Roaring it out). He also sets up Stealth Rock, which means you can free up a spot on Heatran for Earth Power or change it to Zapdos. He can help deal with Suicune, taking any attack and Thunderbolting for the 2HKO at +1, or Toxic him out to outstall with SubRoost, as he outspeeds. An advantage here is also that both Zapdos and Hippowdon have reliable recovery. Finally, you might want to try Rotom-W over Rotom-H to scare off Tyranitar from trapping you, as well as Heatran from setting up on you. The exact sets of Hippowdon and Zapdos are:

Hide

Hippowdon @ Leftovers | Sand Stream
Careful | 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD or Impish 252 HP / 152 Def / 104 SpD
Earthquake / Slack Off / Roar / Stealth Rock

Zapdos @ Leftovers | Pressure
Timid | 192 HP / 64 SpD / 252 Spe
Substitute / Roost / Thunderbolt / Toxic

Good luck!

 

[Lazyboy]

Thanks for the rate guys.

@Gideon, thanks for the advice, I have switched to using Tenta as my rapid spinner now. My only real reason for using Starmie over Tenta was it's ability to 2hko defensive Rotom-A, but with TTar pursuiting this isn't as much of an issue.
So far Tenta's worked out great.

@george, yes offensive water types can be an issue and subsplit gengar can be pretty tough to deal with, however with some of the suggested changes (specially defensive Skarm, Tentacruel w/ HP electric) these pokes become a bit less of a problem. Usually the offensive pokes put more pressure on me, but they must give up their longevity to do so, so managing to force them out is usually enough to put them into KO range late game when aero comes out. As for the physical side, Lure tyranitar is designed to, albeit indirectly, patch my SD BP luke weakness. Luke really only has 2 oppertunites to (safely) set up: Rotom-H locked into shadow ball and a seemingly harmless scarftar locked into pursuit. If rotom-H is locked into shadow ball I can simply switch to another pokes as he SD's, then either sacrifice a poke (worst case scenario) or come back in on a predicted CC and check it from there. That pretty much only leaves it with TTar, and we all know how that ends up for luke. Breloom is the same, jolly versions will outspeed ttar, but then they lack the power to break skarm/rotom-H, so it's catch 22. Also, Adamant luke still has a chance to ohko max HP/ max def hippo with a +2 LO CC after SR, so that doesn't really fix the problem.

@BKC Thanks, Yeah my only real use for BB was for machamp leads, it'll be a struggle facing the odd one or two i encounter, but I do miss having whirlwind sometimes. Same can be said for the spread, it was just so I can take minimum damage from Dpunch, I actually thing the ability to set up on specially based walls is more beneficial. As for the aero spread, you're completely right, I'm generally not too good at custom EV's so I just went with the boring 4/252/252, but that spread is much better, thanks.

@Tomahawk Lure TTar isn't just to help against stall, he just does that as well :P He's more of a utility poke, for lack of a better description. He acts as a lure to Luke, who from previous comments can be a bit of a problem to this team, meaning he has very few safe setup oppertunities. He also lures in scizor, surviving a CB bullet punch thanks to babiri, meaning that if I need to clean up with Aero, there's 1 less threat he needs to worry about, the same can be said again for breloom (although jolly variants will outspeed). Outside of that, he makes a solid switch in to heatran, if I want to take some pressure off of Tenta so he can continue doing his job of spinning. All in all, he's really the star of my team and pretty much fits (almost perfectly onto the team). Hippo Would do well against DDtar, but using it over TTar would leave me susceptible to the aforementioned pokes, well actually only breloom but still... Zapdos is actually a really good idea and would actually do really in place of heatran. My only concern would be that with zapdos taking heatrans place, I would be weak against CM rachi, specifically wish CM rachi. However, I suppose with the use of toxic spikes I could use roar over toxic? Let me know what you think. Also, the rotom-W change is probably for the best, if not a minor improvement. TTar has to be wary anyway due to w-o-w and Heatran setting up isn't too much of a hassle seeing as Tenta, TTar and Aero all wall it pretty well, but it couldn't hurt.

Now I said I'd probably missed some poke off of the threat list, and upon further thought I was right. With Starmie switching out for Tenta, my team becomes a bit weak to Stallbreaker Gliscor. Both Aero and (possibly) Zapdos can switch into it on EQ or Roost, but any other move means they're in trouble. Any ideas?

Anyway, thanks guys for all your advice, it's been a real help and I'll update the original post with changes in bold.

 

[sandshrewz]

Lols. Good team btw! A different approach to stall team however, I see no status absoorbers :/ one problem at a time! About gliscor... It isn't really a threat I reckon. Stallbreaker can't break a proper stall team. In KGstall for example, forretress + gyara combi counters gliscor. For your team, it will be skarm + aero.

First, determine the gliscor set. All other sets bar baton pass + taunt can be handled by skarm. Without taunt, gliscor is set up fodder for skarm. Stallbreaker gliscor uses taunt and toxic to stall out teams. However... This is they way for you to bypass it.

First switch into skarm. Skarm should stay in and struggle after the taunt. Since skarm is steel type, gliscor will most likey switch or stay in to roost. Unlikely it'll use toxic. So it's a free switch to aero. Since it probably won't toxic or taunt again, you get to get in safely and taunt it instead :) I think aero is a better staller than gliscor. Lols. Do add in that aero's ability is pressure. This makes pressure stalling possible. Stone Edge can be replaced by toxic if you don't use toxic stall zapdos.

 

[george182]

@george,Also, Adamant luke still has a chance to ohko max HP/ max def hippo with a +2 LO CC after SR, so that doesn't really fix the problem.

75.7% - 89.3%

Stealth rocks only do 6.25% to Hippowdon, not mention most Lucario are Jolly. Hippowdon is a great Lucario check and would be your only reliably switch in for it.

But anyway for your current team I recommend maxing out Tentacruels defence and possibly using a bold nature. This helps against Lucario, Infernape, Breloom and Gyarados. I also recommend going back to max speed on aerodactyl, it gives you a last resort against Jolteon/Aero but more importantly outspeeds most Gyarados and Dragonite after a dragon dance. I know alot of the top PO battlers use 247 speed on dragon dancers because that allows you to outspeed Jolly flygon after 2 dragon dances. The extra Hp won't be too helpful considering the only attack Aerodactly switches into is a Heatrans Fireblast.


But if you are up for changing T-tar/Aerodactyl, which I really think is the way to go if you want to patch your teams weaknesses. You can still stick with a semi stall style team, I did some testing and I swapped them out for Quagsire and DD Heal Bell Dragonite. This variant did incredibly well against stall teams, and patched up your huge water problems with Quagsire, while Dragonite retains the semi stall style giving you a solid breloom counter. Dragonite is also a great weapon against stall with Heal bell and can sweep any team if they have no counters left.

Quagsire/Dragonite sets

Quagsire @ leftovers
Careful
252hp/56defence/200sp.def
- Earthquake
- Encore
- Toxic
- Recover

Dragonite @ Leftovers
Careful
252hp/216sp.def/40speed
- Heal Bell
- Roost
- Dragon claw
- Dragon Dance/Flamethrower

 

[Lazyboy]

So Hippo has to be at pretty much full health...

but anyway, tentas spread means it's not Ohko'd by Napes +2 thunderpunch, which is the most nape can do to it. As for the other physical threats, tenta rarely has trouble with Breloom (now that i'm using ice beam over HP electric, seeing as it 2hko'd buky gyara after SR -_-) and tenta's not really meant to check luke. I have gone back to a spread of 12 HP/252 atk/ 244 spe, this allows me to outspeed adamant gyara/Dnite at +1, the extra bulk wasn't really noticable. I still lose to jolt/other Aero but meh, they cna be dealt with by other pokes. Also, as they're both weak to some form of hazard, phazing usually gets to them before they can do too much damage.

As for the changes, the water weakness isn't as much as it was, Skarm can phaze CM cune before it does too much damage, Starmie gets checked by Rotom-A and Aero, plus any LO sets need recover to do any lasting damage to the team. I must admit I haven't faced too many brelooms with this team so I'm not entirely confident how this team deals with it, but subseed sets are dealt with by tenta and subpunch sets are walled by skarm and checked by rotom-a and tenta, not to mentioned it's lured by ttar.

once again, i'll update the new changes in bold, thanks for all the rates guys and any more improvements will be much appreciated.