Resource SM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final SM Update - #479)

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Gothitelle is something we will keep an eye on, but we don't want to overhype things and shoot it into higher ranks so quickly. Smogon Snake Draft's games will very likely give us a clear indication if Gothitelle does need to move up next update.

As for the average scores of Arceus-Ground and Mega Gengar being so similar, this image may shed some light onto the decision behind its final rank:

Gengar and Arceus-Ground do have similar average scores, but 4 VR council members placing it at S rank is why the two were seperated this way. Most of the council had the two mons at either 3rd or 4th anyway, so it was bound to come close. There was a discussion around making "S-" again to fit the two, but we decided against it because it messes with the balance of mons across the top ranks for no real gain - differing opinions on the top mons is to be expected with a thread like this anyway, and that's okay!
 
I want to nom:
Aerodactyl-Mega ---> Rank -B

As it did in ORAS, Aerodactyl is a suicide lead / fast lead, it have access to Stealth Rock and Taunt, enough to prevent defog from Pokemon like Giratina-O, Arceus Support and others, Im testing it on a Hyper Offense Build and haven't lost yet because Aerodactyl is faster than Gengar Mega and Mewtwo, giving me enough speed to Stealth Rock and complete the role as Suicide Lead, I want to say that Aerodactyl Adamant KO Diancie Mega and other mons like Lucario-Mega, Tapu Koko, Yveltal, Rayquaza, Salamence Mega and stuff, It can check flying spam and taunt Set Up sweepers, leads, stall and defog users, really useful on this metagame.
I will share a RMT in some hours where I show replays of Aerodactyl, have a good day
 
I believe reshiram should be moved up to C+ or B, it is a fantastic revenge killer and with a choice scarf can OHKO primal groudon, mega gengar, marshadow, mega lucario, celesteela, giratina, giratina-o, and many more... it has fantastic offensive stats and can run many sets to help it deal with other common threats such as ho-oh and can 2HKO ho-oh with ease, also has a very strong move pool and hits abnormally hard against other walls such as lugia with its powerful blue flare and draco stab moves
 
I believe reshiram should be moved up to C+ or B, it is a fantastic revenge killer and with a choice scarf can OHKO primal groudon, mega gengar, marshadow, mega lucario, celesteela, giratina, giratina-o, and many more... it has fantastic offensive stats and can run many sets to help it deal with other common threats such as ho-oh and can 2HKO ho-oh with ease, also has a very strong move pool and hits abnormally hard against other walls such as lugia with its powerful blue flare and draco stab moves
I'm sorry, but it's anything but fantastic.

The only "viable" set it had was its Grassium Z set and even that isn't making any waves in Ubers anymore, whether it's a ladder game or in tournament play. I don't see how a Scarfed mon like Resh's able to break mons like Lugia, which just stalls it out, and you're forced to run Stone Edge for Ho-Oh which is lol. Scarfed Resh can't break anything fat in this meta and just auto-loses to so many matchups in the meta.
 
I'm sorry, but it's anything but fantastic.

The only "viable" set it had was its Grassium Z set and even that isn't making any waves in Ubers anymore, whether it's a ladder game or in tournament play. I don't see how a Scarfed mon like Resh's able to break mons like Lugia, which just stalls it out, and you're forced to run Stone Edge for Ho-Oh which is lol. Scarfed Resh can't break anything fat in this meta and just auto-loses to so many matchups in the meta.
There's really only one way for Scarf Reshiram to really be a threatening sweeper, and that is on a sun team. In that situation, Reshiram can OHKO almost anything that isn't heavily invested in Special Defense with Blue Flare, especially after Stealth Rock as long as the foe doesn't resist Blue Flare. And for those who aren't OHKOed for whatever reason, they almost certainly won't be able to switch in unless they are named Kyogre, Chansey, Blissey, or Ho-Oh.

However, weather teams are just terrible in Ubers with Primals roaming about, so that really doesn't mean very much in the big picture. I just wanted to say that Reshiram isn't outclassed in everything, but just that its niche is almost completely irrelevant unless you specifically build around it.

Edit: Throwing in calcs for the hell of it. They apply to Z-Sunny Day Reshiram as well as Choice Scarf
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Lugia in Sun: 268-316 (64.4 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Vengeance417
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 152 HP / 44 SpD Groudon-Primal in Harsh Sunshine: 202-238 (53.2 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (shows Offensive Primal Groudon cannot switch into Reshiram pretty much ever. Defensive Primal Groudon can though, as it is a 3HKO.)
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas in Sun: 358-423 (87.1 - 102.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Yveltal in Sun: 441-519 (112.2 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground in Sun: 333-393 (87.4 - 103.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Marshadow in Sun: 424-499 (132 - 155.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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It's time to my first nominate a mon in Uber tier I do not know if it surprising you or not.

Mega Charizard X to D or C-

I had to look long for good investigations on it Ev's well with the acces of Dragon Dance it is a good sweeper, he can surprise the varint of Kyogre with Thunder Punch after the set up of Dragon Dance while the switch-in. It allows OHKOing likes Deoxys-A, the variant of Mewtwo, or Mega Lucario with Flare Blitz but can take some damage recoil, thanks Roost he can recover this HP after the damage recoil by Flare Blitz. there is another option instead of Flare Blitz, i think also to Outrage for pass the Dragon-Type like Rayquaza, Mega Salamence, or the variant of Giratina. I give you an importable set of Mega Charizard X and the calculation damage below.

Charizard-Mega-X (M) @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 180 HP / 204 Atk / 124 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Thunder Punch
- Roost

Well the base this set had to be defensive and offensive at the same time, but someone gave me this advice there to play better. (This is not my set)​

Primal Kyogre Defensive
+1 204 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Kyogre-Primal: 238-282 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Primal Kyogre Offensive
+1 204 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Thunder Punch vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Kyogre-Primal: 340-400 (88 - 103.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+1 204 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Thunder Punch vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Kyogre-Primal: 340-400 (88 - 103.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Damage with Flare Blitz

Deoxys Attack
+1 204 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Attack: 1144-1347 (474.6 - 558.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mewtwo Variant
+1 204 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mewtwo: 402-474 (113.8 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 204 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-X: 369-435 (104.2 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 204 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mewtwo-Mega-Y: 495-583 (140.2 - 165.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mega Lucario
+1 204 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lucario-Mega: 816-962 (290.3 - 342.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Damage with Outrage

Mega Salamence
+1 204 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 590-696 (172.5 - 203.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Rayquaza Variant set
+1 204 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rayquaza: 806-950 (230.9 - 272.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 204 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza: 804-948 (229 - 270%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Giratina Variant
+1 204 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Giratina-Origin: 582-686 (131.9 - 155.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 204 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Giratina: 486-572 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 204 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Outrage vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Giratina: 486-572 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
It allows OHKOing likes Deoxys-A, the variant of Mewtwo, or Mega Lucario with Flare Blitz
advice: if you want to say something is good, don't say that it can OHKO the frailest Pokemon in the meta like that's an achievement. Choice Band Chansey can OHKO Deoxys-A too, but I don't hear anyone arguing for that.


Edit: Finally got to a computer, so now I'll go over it in slightly more detail:

Mega Charizard X to D or C-
In this tier, D is for stuff that is ranked Uber, but is not at all viable in the meta. I'm pretty sure OU won't ban Mega Charizard X anytime soon.


Deoxys Attack
+1 204 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Attack: 1144-1347 (474.6 - 558.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I have multiple problems with this calc:
  1. It's a calc involving Deoxys-A defensively, meaning that it is pointless and self-evident, especially since Deoxys-A almost always runs Focus Sash and will proceed to OHKO with Psycho Boost.
  2. Why the hell is Charizard shown at +1???

Charizard-Mega-X (M) @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 180 HP / 204 Atk / 124 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Thunder Punch
- Roost

Well the base this set had to be defensive and offensive at the same time, but someone gave me this advice there to play better. (This is not my set)
  • Why did you mention Outrage if it isn't even on the set?
  • I really don't get anything from your commentary on the bottom other than the fact that you stole the set from someone else.
  • I have no idea how to use this set if I wanted to try it out.
 
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I'm sorry, but it's anything but fantastic.

The only "viable" set it had was its Grassium Z set and even that isn't making any waves in Ubers anymore, whether it's a ladder game or in tournament play. I don't see how a Scarfed mon like Resh's able to break mons like Lugia, which just stalls it out, and you're forced to run Stone Edge for Ho-Oh which is lol. Scarfed Resh can't break anything fat in this meta and just auto-loses to so many matchups in the meta.
Scarfed resh is quite good because it can OHKO almost everything in S tier, and outspeed em with scarf, I'm not saying it should be an A rating, quite far I'm saying it should be B- or C+. The ability to revenge kill and outspend primal-G maga gengar is necessary to many bulky teams, and can be invaluable
 
Scarfed resh is quite good because it can OHKO almost everything in S tier, and outspeed em with scarf, I'm not saying it should be an A rating, quite far I'm saying it should be B- or C+. The ability to revenge kill and outspend primal-G maga gengar is necessary to many bulky teams, and can be invaluable
By your logic, Kyurem-W should be up there as well, since it has a stronger Draco than Reshiram, and is faster. It's C though, for good reasons. Answer this: how is Reshiram more effective than Kyurem-W in, well, almost any situation barring the usage of Z-Sunny Day or Choice Scarf with sun support? I'm all for Reshiram moving out of D, but I think it should be ranked C-, at best.
 
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By your logic, Kyurem-W should be up there as well, since it has a stronger Draco than Reshiram, and is faster. It's C though, for good reasons. Answer this: how is Reshiram more effective than Kyurem-W in, well, almost any situation barring the usage of Z-Sunny Day or Choice Scarf with sun support? I'm all for Reshiram moving out of D, but I think it should be ranked C-, at best.
It better because kyurem-w can't OHKO mega gengar, primal groudon, or any of the other extreamly common things I mentioned, and kyurem-w is better on offensive teams, while reshiram with scarf works great on offensive or defensive based teams as ether a revenge killer, or wall breaker. Kyurem simply can not hit hard enough in common threats
 
It better because kyurem-w can't OHKO mega gengar, primal groudon, or any of the other extreamly common things I mentioned, and kyurem-w is better on offensive teams, while reshiram with scarf works great on offensive or defensive based teams as ether a revenge killer, or wall breaker. Kyurem simply can not hit hard enough in common threats
oh my god.... Scarf Kyurem-W was actually a thing before Lunala
252+ SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-White Draco Meteor vs. 152 HP / 44 SpD Groudon-Primal: 297-349 (78.3 - 92%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-White Ice Beam vs. 152 HP / 44 SpD Groudon-Primal: 205-243 (54 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Turboblaze Kyurem-White Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar-Mega: 297-351 (113.7 - 134.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also, Reshiram CAN'T beat Primal Groudon 1v1
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Draco Meteor vs. 152 HP / 44 SpD Groudon-Primal: 270-318 (71.2 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 152 HP / 44 SpD Groudon-Primal in Harsh Sunshine: 202-238 (53.2 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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I'm just going to go ahead and nominate Reshiram to C-.

My reasoning goes as follows:
  1. Reshiram isn't trash like the rest of the stuff in D; it can run multiple sets, notably its Z-Move sets utilizing Grassium-Z and Firium-Z as well as (niche) sun-abusing sets utilizing Choice Scarf and Choice Specs.
    • Firium-Z is versatile, able to nuke with a sun-boosted Inferno Overdrive against stall and sweep with Z-Sunny Day against offense. However, Primals MUST be removed prior to using any Z-Move.
    • Grassium-Z takes out common stops to pretty much every other Reshiram set like Kyogre, Arceus-Water, and Arceus-Ground, but largely wastes Reshiram's potential after the Z-move has been used.
    • Choice Specs paired with sun support makes Reshiram's stall matchup nothing short of incredible, enabling it to effectively use Inferno Overdrive over and over again, breaking more things. This includes Blissey, and if Reshiram is running Solar Beam, Arceus-Water. It can also OHKO offensive Primal Groudon with Draco Meteor much like Kyurem-W can. A Life Orb set can be run similarly, but also grants Reshiram the ability to effectively abuse its amazing STAB coverage and access to reliable recovery. These sets can also be very effective against offense on Sticky Web teams. Another thing to note is the waning presence of Primals on stall.
    • Choice Scarf paired with sun support maximizes Reshiram's presence against offensive, making it an extremely potent revenge killer and sweeper.
    • If you really want to screw with people, Reshiram can potentially run pseudo-viable physical sets involving SubClaws.
  2. Reshiram has a unique typing in Fire / Dragon coupled with a 130 Base Power STAB Blue Flare, basically a Draco Meteor that can hit Xerneas and does not lower Special Attack by 2. This can give it an edge in certain situations over Pokemon such as Kyurem-W and Palkia, the former of which Reshiram is commonly compared to.
    • Reshiram is one of very few Dragon-types without an immediate weakness to Fairy and thus Xerneas, which is big.
    • Fire / Dragon STAB coverage is very, very good offensively, arguably even better than Fire / Flying.
 
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Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
I'm just going to go ahead and nominate Reshiram to C- below Genesect.

My reasoning goes as follows:
  1. Reshiram isn't trash like the rest of the stuff in D; it can run multiple sets, notably its Z-Move sets utilizing Grassium-Z and Firium-Z as well as (niche) sun-abusing sets utilizing Choice Scarf and Choice Specs.
    • Firium-Z is versatile, able to wallbreak with a sun-boosted Inferno Overdrive against stall and sweep with Z-Sunny Day against offense. However, Primals MUST be removed prior to using any Z-Move. when primals are on nearly 90% of teams combined and many have both, you're making it sound way easier than it is in practice. Especially considering the fact that both of them have rising defensive sets that are harder to kill.
    • Grassium-Z takes out common stops to pretty much every other Reshiram set like Kyogre, Arceus-Water, and Arceus-Ground, but largely wastes Reshiram's potential after the Z-move has been used. It's so hilariously outclassed as a breaker I would never use it. It lacks any defensive utility as Dragon/Fire is really bad defensively, and relies heavily on prediction to break through teams and still isn't as effective as other balance breakers because it's not strong enough.
    • Choice Specs paired with sun support enables Reshiram to effectively use Inferno Overdrive over and over again, breaking more things. This includes Blissey, and if Reshiram is running Solar Beam, Arceus-Water. It can also OHKO offensive Primal Groudon with Draco Meteor much like Kyurem-W can. A Life Orb set can be run similarly, but also grants Reshiram the ability to effectively abuse its amazing STAB coverage and access to reliable recovery. Dude, Sun is dead. It's just dead. Both primals are rampant, and then there's tyranitar as well. It's not viable. I've heard so many people say that it can be used on sun when sun is just unviable.
    • Choice Scarf paired with sun support maximizes Reshiram's presence against offensive, making it an extremely potent revenge killer and sweeper. It's a pathetic scarf mon that has to rely on SE to beat ho-oh lol. It doesn't revenge too many relevant threats and it's not quite as fast as most Scarf mons.
    • If you really want to screw with people, Reshiram can potentially run pseudo-viable physical sets involving SubClaws. Unviable. Next.
  2. Reshiram has a unique typing in Fire / Dragon coupled with a 130 Base Power STAB Blue Flare, basically a Draco Meteor that can hit Xerneas and does not lower Special Attack by 2. This can give it an edge in certain situations over Pokemon such as Kyurem-W and Palkia, the former of which Reshiram is commonly compared to.
    • Reshiram is one of very few Dragon-types without an immediate weakness to Fairy and thus Xerneas, which is big. It's still losing:
      252+ SpA Fairy Aura Xerneas Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Reshiram: 195-231 (57.1 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. If anything, being a fire that can't check Xerneas is just bad.
    • Fire / Dragon STAB coverage is very, very good offensively, arguably even better than Fire / Flying. Prediction-reliant as all hell because of common mons that can switch into either. It would be better if it was a physical attacker as then Pogre couldn't switch in. In addition, it's frankly not that strong. 150 is only decent for this tier.
I'm going to respond in bold. Reshiram should stay in D.
 
Pheromosa D to C+
Phero is way better than people often realise. With beast boost it can power through teams with relative ease, it has access to U-turn. Which is important for this mon to properly function well. The main weakness on this mon is the STAB combo being resisted by most flying, fairy and ghost types. Even though most flying types get handled by Ice Beam, and a strong fighting STAB can power through some resists, more than often it isn't enough which leaves Pheromosa walled by these things. However, once these checks get weakened or removed. Phero can break through cleanly most of the time. Phero can be quite prediction heavy and is kinda matchup reliant, but with the help of wallbreakers like Eruption Groudon, it forms a nice core. I think it deserves more than D rank.

Ditto C+ to B-
Ditto shouldn't be ranked this low, like it isn't comparable to stuff such as Buzzwole. Ditto wins almost any games against offense because you simply can't set up your stuff on a team with it. It has a nice spot in the back of a team and only comes out when it has to. Ditto can lack in potential because it could be a 5v6 mon game if the team has answers to everything on their own team. Ditto can also easily get chipped and its HP stat is pretty low, but that doesn't stop this thing from doing what its supposed to do. It's more often than not a huge threat on the opposing team, and I just think C+ is a bit too low for it.

Gothitelle B- to B+/A-
The current most popular set, Charm / Taunt / Confide / Rest, can trap a huge portion of the meta. It threatens a ton of shit, and the only playstyle that doesn't really care much about it is offense. With the right support however, such as Glare Zygarde, it can trap a whole new set of mons, including SpDef Pdon lacking roar and being able to switch in on fat Ho-Oh if it is paralyzed. It can trap most choice locked mons like Yveltal locked into Oblivion Wing and Xerneas as revenge killer. This thing puts a shit ton of pressure and makes every play around something that can get trapped risky. Trapping stuff doesn't stop there however. This thing creates more setup oppurtunities than Wobbuffett can dream of. You can setup the most absurd things with this thing. You can setup a Nasty Plot with Life Orb Deoxys-A on pretty much anything Goth trapped. Though this example is kinda unviable, due to priority and Gothitelle taking more turns than Psychic Terrain can last, it does give a good idea on how absurd the setup oppurtunities are this pokemon can give. It deserves B+ rank at least, though I wanna push for A-. It's popularity has risen a ton lately and not prepping for Goth is like not prepping for a proper Xern check nowadays.
 

Katy

Banned deucer.
It's time to my first nominate a mon in Uber tier I do not know if it surprising you or not.

Mega Charizard X to D or C-
I heavily disagree with any rise of Zard X into uber. I playede enough Uber and I don't see Zard X anywhere plus OHKOing a frail mon like Deoxys Attack doesn't make a pokemon more viable than it is. since Deoxys Attack form has trash defense stats anyway. I just don't think Zard X is a viable option in a metagame where Primal Kyogre and Primal Groudon and physically defensive Arceus forms are able to scare it out even before a boost happens. Also look up who's on S rank, Arceus Ground.
I just don't see Zard X neither Reshiram rising anytime soon in this metagame of uber. Zard X isnt even that good, when you have better options as megas in the uber tier currently.


Pheromosa D to C+
I also disagree with a rise when it just dropped in the last viability update.
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
Scarfed resh is quite good because it can OHKO almost everything in S tier, and outspeed em with scarf, I'm not saying it should be an A rating, quite far I'm saying it should be B- or C+. The ability to revenge kill and outspend primal-G maga gengar is necessary to many bulky teams, and can be invaluable
It better because kyurem-w can't OHKO mega gengar, primal groudon, or any of the other extreamly common things I mentioned, and kyurem-w is better on offensive teams, while reshiram with scarf works great on offensive or defensive based teams as ether a revenge killer, or wall breaker. Kyurem simply can not hit hard enough in common threats
Your calcs are wrong, I'll address that in a spoiler. Otherwise, no shit a scarfer can outspeed pdon and mgar, most ubers mons can too. And there are much better ways of dealing with pdon and gengar than revenge killing. Groundceus, waterceus, and gira-o are all mons that can switch in 99% of the time and kill pdon. Yveltal does the same for mgar. Also kyurem-w does hit harder than reshiram, it has 170 spa compared to reshiram's 150 (170 is more than 150) and it also has an arguably better movepool. And I really don't think scarf reshiram counts as a wallbreaker if you're running scarf.

>Scarfed resh is quite good because it can OHKO almost everything in S tier
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 201-237 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO (draco does more than earth power)
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Groudon-Primal: 283-334 (82.9 - 97.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Blue Flare vs. 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas: 238-282 (57.9 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Turboblaze Reshiram Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ground: 222-262 (50 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(It can OHKO nothing in S tier without a boost)

>kyurem-w can't OHKO mega gengar
252 SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-White Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gengar-Mega: 352-417 (134.8 - 159.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
I think it would be nice to move arceus ground to A+, it is still a fantastic Pokémon in every way, the problem is that primal groudon can do a lot of the same things that arceus-Ground can, and so it's a bit less needed on a lot of teams, primal-G is a huge threat, and it's true that arceus ground can threaten it and many other prominent mons in the tier, but primal groudon is used on almost any competitive ubers team, and most of them don't need them both, it can easily be substituted with mega-salamence, which also has a nice bonus of lowering groudons attack with intimidate before mega, and the ability to safely switch into precipice plates.
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
I think it would be nice to move arceus ground to A+, it is still a fantastic Pokémon in every way, the problem is that primal groudon can do a lot of the same things that arceus-Ground can, and so it's a bit less needed on a lot of teams, primal-G is a huge threat, and it's true that arceus ground can threaten it and many other prominent mons in the tier, but primal groudon is used on almost any competitive ubers team, and most of them don't need them both, it can easily be substituted with mega-salamence, which also has a nice bonus of lowering groudons attack with intimidate before mega, and the ability to safely switch into precipice plates.
Arceus Ground and Primal Groudon fill very different roles. Primal Groudon is used for setting hazards, tanking hits from 90% of the tier, stopping xern, wallbreaking, and sweeping. Groundceus is used for removing hazards, stopping Primal Groudon, and handling mons like Zygarde and Mega Mence. Also why the fuck are you bringing Mega Mence into this convo? It's unrelated
 

Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
I think it would be nice to move arceus ground to A+, it is still a fantastic Pokémon in every way, the problem is that primal groudon can do a lot of the same things that arceus-Ground can, and so it's a bit less needed on a lot of teams, primal-G is a huge threat, and it's true that arceus ground can threaten it and many other prominent mons in the tier, but primal groudon is used on almost any competitive ubers team, and most of them don't need them both, it can easily be substituted with mega-salamence, which also has a nice bonus of lowering groudons attack with intimidate before mega, and the ability to safely switch into precipice plates.
OK, you're showing a clear lack of knowledge of the ubers metagame. Groundceus is extraordinarily versatile and is checks a whole bunch of different threats with the better special defense, speed and different move pool. It's extraordinarily splash able and can fit on a team alongside Pdon quite well, really.
Please learn the ubers metagame before you make an uniformed post like this.
 
Alright guys, the time has come to open this thread to the public. Please keep discussion civil and give thought to your nominations - we'll be monitoring this thread to make sure discussion stays of reasonable quality, so avoid one-liners and unsupported arguments. The Viability Council has done its best to try and get a decent preliminary list, but it is certainly expected things will shift as the metagame continues to develop.

Happy discussing!
I'd like to nominate solgaleo to B, it's useage seems to be going up, as it is a natural check to xern, and can avoid a 2hko to focus blast, if holding an assult vest with max hp and atk investments, and OHKOing it in return. it can also raise its speed with flame charge and become very deadly after a speed boost.
 

Lacus Clyne

Given-Taken
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SCL Champion
Solgaleo is really bad. Not only is the typing really bad but the Pokémon itself just lacks power to break through most common Pokémon. You can use Toxic to make up for that but its honestly such a waste of space. The only useful set I saw was the Z-Splash set but even this one is rather mediocre because it doesn't even outspeed half the Pokémon its suppose to kill. Pokémon such as Yveltal just come in and take it out. You could run Flame Charge to boost your speed but that basically means that you need two set up turns which is impossible unless your opponent is an amateur. Solgaleo has a few useful moves here and there but this Pokémon is honestly outclassed by many. If your aim is to check Xerneas you are better off using Magearna or even Aegislash because these Pokémon can actually do something unlike Solgaleo.
 
Solgaleo is really bad. Not only is the typing really bad but the Pokémon itself just lacks power to break through most common Pokémon. You can use Toxic to make up for that but its honestly such a waste of space. The only useful set I saw was the Z-Splash set but even this one is rather mediocre because it doesn't even outspeed half the Pokémon its suppose to kill. Pokémon such as Yveltal just come in and take it out. You could run Flame Charge to boost your speed but that basically means that you need two set up turns which is impossible unless your opponent is an amateur. Solgaleo has a few useful moves here and there but this Pokémon is honestly outclassed by many. If your aim is to check Xerneas you are better off using Magearna or even Aegislash because these Pokémon can actually do something unlike Solgaleo.
It's not meant too take out things like yveltal, it's meant to ether A) counter xern or B) as a late game sweeper too pick off a lot of weakened foes, and it can make up for its average speed with flame charge. As a late game sweeper it can effectively destroy weakened foes, and it can ether kill xern, or force it out making it loose its power herb so it won't be able to set up geomacy effectively
 
PDon does like the same thing, forcing out xern and can do a lot more stuff. RP lets it sweep late game much more effectively (your Solgaleo gets outsped even after a boost by common mons) while it just has much more utility. If its only job is to counter xern you can have Magearna, Aegislash, lots more, a lot more mons can late game sweep better.
 
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