Metagame SM Ubers General Metagame Discussion

Zygarde could also use Coil, which lets it take absolutely nothing from boosted Ekiller after a boost or two. This helps its matchup vs last-mon Ekiller and SD Pdon more than Dragon Tail.

+6 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. +2 240 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 222-263 (35 - 41.5%) -- 77.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
DTail is generally good to shuffle the oppponents team around and rack up hazard dmg while Coil is an offensive and defensive Option at once, making it even harder to take down on the physical side. Glare is an amazing option as it can Paralyze almost any Mon AND Pdon, which is actually insane to think about.

ZygardeC is probably THE counter to Pdon up to the point that I've seen people run HP Ice Mid/High ladder on it to actually kill Zygarde on its own. The physical bulk of this monster is unrivaled and easily an A thread in my books
 

mags

Banned deucer.
Why is paralyzing pdon a big deal. If it's support pdon than toxic is better and if it's offensive than clicking dtail/thousand arrows is better. The few things glare does is cool like hitting xern but it doesn't provide as muh utility as dtail or toxic. Big deal you can spread yellow magic around.. dont you think racking up damage with spikes + phazing is overall better than hoping you get a full par. If you give up sleeptalk then you are passive af and just another gira a,,, The reason I don't see a point for coil is because the def boost is not needed to check most things. Yea u make a fair point with last mon ekiller but even then a lot of ekillers run icebeam now. I gave the two sets that have the overall most utility and would fit best on more teams than a niche glare set or coil.

edit: I thought the reason to run coil was to make sure you stand a chance against things that setup an sd like pdon/mluke/ekiller. I feel like the att boost isn't even worth it as u need to setup multiple times to do any real damage. Not to mention anything can revenge you so at best you coil up and check the 1 thing you are trying to check and switch out which is the same thing dtail/toxic is doing.
 
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I think we can both agree that SleepTalk is not debatable, the regen and status removal is just too crucial. My point on coil is less the defensive boost, which is nice to dumpster phys attacker even more, but more the atk boost. at +1 Arrows chunks most of the meta for a nifty amount, and unless you run Rocks and spikes I feel Coil is just better. not to mention dtail does not hit xern which loves to come in on Zygarde
 
Why is paralyzing pdon a big deal. If it's support pdon than toxic is better and if it's offensive than clicking dtail/thousand arrows is better. The few things glare does is cool like hitting xern but it doesn't provide as muh utility as dtail or toxic. Big deal you can spread yellow magic around.. dont you think racking up damage with spikes + phazing is overall better than hoping you get a full par. If you give up sleeptalk then you are passive af and just another gira a,,, The reason I don't see a point for coil is because the def boost is not needed to check most things. Yea u make a fair point with last mon ekiller but even then a lot of ekillers run icebeam now. I gave the two sets that have the overall most utility and would fit best on more teams than a niche glare set or coil.

edit: I thought the reason to run coil was to make sure you stand a chance against things that setup an sd like pdon/mluke/ekiller. I feel like the att boost isn't even worth it as u need to setup multiple times to do any real damage. Not to mention anything can revenge you so at best you coil up and check the 1 thing you are trying to check and switch out which is the same thing dtail/toxic is doing.
Paralyzing PDon is a big deal. If it's offensive then, now it's pretty much useless. If it's support then it's guaranteed to be slower than your whole team and makes it ez for you to eliminate it. Basically, I think that a Paralyzed support Pdon lasts as long as a toxiced one does...

Glare hits all pokemon in game and it actually punishes support groundceus for trying to ruin your day. It's a stupidly good mindless move.

Then, you proceed to dismiss spreading yellow magic playstyle which is lol. It's one of the strongest playstyle in ubers for sure... Paralysis will inherently force switches due to full paralysis in critical situations, therefore Glare actually posses pseudo-phazing quality. Glare Zygarde and spikes is a strong playstyle from my experience so far.

I agree that coil is garbage. Toxic is pretty bad compared to Glare IMO.
 

mags

Banned deucer.
uhh punishing groundceus?! toxic does that but a lot better. Same with waterceus. An offensive pdon won't be stopped by glare all it does is allow you to revenge kill it easier. With toxic you can't check offensive pdon that well you just put it on a timer. Dtail will delay the sweep but with hazards etc it will be very damaged and easy to check. Overall it's a pretty shitty offensive pdon check because it needs to be in complete form already and it still needs to have a decent amount of hp to deal with sd or mixed dpulse. Glare changes nothing. All this nonsense about yellow magic being a good playstyle is ridic 2 last time I checked it's not a playstyle. It's just a technique balance uses. It's just status spreading and all balance teams use it. The difference between glare and toxic is 1 of them doesn't really help zygarde do it's job,, like toxic hits everything just like glare except for steels and most steels don't like eating thousand arrows. The few steels who don't care about either also don't give a shit about glare.. like ferro/zonger. Toxic helps stall out things while glare is just helping teammates like mgar for removing things. 2 bad toxic does the same. Just my my thoughts on zygarde I'm sure some of you disagree but I spend a ton of time watching games and I have yet to seen glare be used effectively and I barely see it at all compared to toxic. dtail still the best
 

INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
I would say Glare is team based, spreading glare is overall nicer for a hand full of things like sleep talk dragontail(it becomes normal priority so You can sometimes outspeed), non sense flinching, mega gengar hex, a sub set-up sweeper, basically can I 2-hit KO it/set-up with it crippled, glare is likly better.

But zygarde likly gets little from glare itself
 
I wonder why no one talks about Necrozma

It actually learns a key support move, Stealth Rock. Moonlight/Morning Sun also provides decent recovery. Its stat may not be the best, but 127 Spe Atk is more than serviceable, and 97/101/89 bulk isn't terrible either. The mono Psychic typing kind of hurt but its solid rock equivalent ability helps a bit. A SR support set of SR/Recovery/Psychic Shock/Dark Pulse or a Z-moves of choice looks quite decent to me.
 

Fireburn

BARN ALL
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Necrozma is a slow mono-Psychic that can't touch Dark-types and only has weak physical moves to deal with Steel-types. It offers little defensive synergy and CM + Stored Power is too risky to run when Yveltal/Arceus-Dark are a common sight on so many teams for Lunala and most of Ubers's attackers can overpower it before it gets going. I don't think it is any real surprise why no one talks about it.

Speaking of Dark-types, I think Darkrai is being slept on a little bit (heh). NP 3 Attacks @ Dark Z-Crystal is a cool set that can still fit on offenses in need of a fast offensive check to Arceus-Dark + a mon that can really threaten stall teams, since the Z-Move's power lets you forgo Thunder to run Sludge Bomb and Focus Blast for optimal coverage. It's definitely not the top tier threat it once was due to the Dark Void nerf but I think a lot of people underestimate Darkrai and it can really threaten a lot of common builds at the moment.
 
I'm wondering how Aegislash will do in the SM metagame. Its a reliable check to Solgaleo outside of EQ (which it can take in Shield form anyway) and while Lunala checks a defensive set it can't really switch in while hazards are up because of Pursuit/Shadow Sneak or Claw if you want to push it. It's still as great a Xerneas check as it ever was, and as Xerneas is an incredibly big threat in the meta right now Aegi is very useful in that regard. However the rise of Arceus-Dark and Yveltal does hurt it. Another thing about Aegi: an offensive set looks interesting, as it does work on both of the SM legendaries (OHKOs with a combination of Claw and Shadow Sneak in Solgaleo's case and 2HKOs before/OHKOs after Shadow Shield respectively) and Sacred Sword hits the Dark types in the tier (with the exception of Yveltal, but a Swords Dance makes this not a problem). I think Aegislash will not ever be a meta-defining mon but it will be all right in the roles that it can play.
 
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With Dark void nerf and hypnoGar banned, is there any other (at least somewhat) reliable sleep inducer viable in Uber? Especially those with sleep powder, Lovely Kiss, or Spore (As those have a higher accuracy than Hypnosis)?
 
Besides Smeargle there aren't many mons with better sleep moves than Hypnosis running around in Ubers that I can think of. I have though seen Z-trick room Hypnosis Bronzong. Z-trick room raises accuracy by one stage, making Hypnosis decently reliant, even if it is gimmicky strategy outside VGC.

Z-hypnosis does raise speed so you can have some fun with that too if you don't mind risks. Otherwise, it's just Hypnosis unless if you aren't afraid using Amoonguss or something.
 

My Thunder

Banned deucer.
With Dark void nerf and hypnoGar banned, is there any other (at least somewhat) reliable sleep inducer viable in Uber? Especially those with sleep powder, Lovely Kiss, or Spore (As those have a higher accuracy than Hypnosis)?
Lunala @ Psychium Z
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 184 Def / 248 SpA / 76 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Calm Mind
- Moongeist Beam
- Ice Beam

This one is perhaps a borderline gimmicky set. However, it can be quite troublesome to deal with once it gains momentum. By the time Psychium Z is activated, Lunala can pretty much outspeed most of the prominent threats on the tier and basically wreak havoc.

Because of Lunala's defensive ability and access to Hypnosis, I find it rather easy to setup Calm Mind twice for the most part, but you can judge for yourself.

+2 248+ SpA Lunala Moongeist Beam vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 246-291 (59.2 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 248+ SpA Lunala Ice Beam vs. 132 HP / 0- SpD Yveltal: 380-448 (89.2 - 105.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
Since I was lucky enough to still have my bold XD Lugia for years, I was thinking of this set:

Psychium Z
252 hp/defense/4 SPA
Roost
Calm Mind
Psycho Boost
Aeroblast

Set up after dealing with steel/dark types. Any support or tanky mon that wants to come in and toxic, Z move them after 2 boosts for massive damage.
 
Since I was lucky enough to still have my bold XD Lugia for years, I was thinking of this set:

Psychium Z
252 hp/defense/4 SPA
Roost
Calm Mind
Psycho Boost
Aeroblast

Set up after dealing with steel/dark types. Any support or tanky mon that wants to come in and toxic, Z move them after 2 boosts for massive damage.
Offensive Lugia sets are simply not viable. While its great bulk and access to Multiscale might make it seem like a decent Calm Mind user, 90 base Special Attack is poor by Ubers standards. This means that even if it happens to get to +6 without being hit by a lucky crit, being statused or being phazed out, it still lacks the ability to threaten the majority of the Ubers metagame. For example, Lugia can't even OHKO Defensive Primal Groudon at +6 with Aeroblast, and PDon can easily just go and hit it with a Dragon Tail or Roar. Lugia is already bad enough this gen, if you're going to use it then the only real viable set is Physically Defensive with Toxic/Whirlwind/Roost/Ice Beam and maybe screens in there somewhere. Anything else is gimmicky and unviable.
 
Not sure how entirely useful this is, but there's a way for you to check your opponent's Zygarde's HP Investment based on how its percentage of health changes when Power Construct activates. Here's the formula:

HP Investment Formula:
([(Post Power Construct HP % - 1) * (216) ] / [Pre Power Construct HP % - Post Power Construct HP %] - 357)*4

Here's a simple calculator made in excel

You can shove this into a google search and replace each variable with you see in battle to find your opponent's likely investment. I'm not too well inclined coding wise so I can't make a calculator for this outside of an excel document. Percentages are in their decimal form, so 50% -> .5

Because a percentage isn't an exact report of your remaining HP, the results is only a rough estimate. For example, I ran a calc based off of this SPL match and got that Zygarde's investment was 249ish. Use your better judgement from that point to get a guess of what your opponent's HP is.

This is for use at level 100. For level 50, change the 216 value to 108 and the 357 value to 183
 
While I'm theorymoning atm due to the fact that the Mewtwonites aren't usable still, I feel Mega Mewtwo X in particular has a fair shot of being pretty cool in this meta, given the rise of Pokemon like Mega Lucario, Dark-types like Arceus-Dark and Yveltal, and with the decline of one of its checks in Ho-Oh.

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Mewtwonite X
Ability: Steadfast
EVs: 176 Atk / 80 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Low Kick
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Taunt

The SpDef ensures that Mega Gengar's Shadow Ball won't OHKO MM2X from full since you speed-tie with it. The rest goes to Attack and Speed. If you're more worried about Ekiller, you could run the older 112 Atk / 144 Def / 252 Spe spread, but I feel MegaGar is a more prevalent threat atm and this spread gives MM2X more attack power as well. Also, that spread is meant for Jolly Life Orb Ekiller whereas Adamant still has a roll to kill you after rocks.

Ice Beam is way better than Ice Punch now due to the Latis being gone, and Ice Beam will enable you to 2HKO Zygarde-C and OHKO Mega Salamence after Intimidate, something Ice Punch would normally fail to do.

Edit: They're on the ladder now.

Edit 2: Made a slight edit to the EV spread to guarantee that an Arceus forme's neutral 0 SpA Judgment is a 3HKO after Stealth Rock.
 
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While I'm theorymoning atm due to the fact that the Mewtwonites aren't usable still, I feel Mega Mewtwo X in particular has a fair shot of being pretty cool in this meta, given the rise of Pokemon like Mega Lucario, Dark-types like Arceus-Dark and Yveltal, and with the decline of one of its checks in Ho-Oh.

Mewtwo-Mega-X @ Mewtwonite X
Ability: Steadfast
EVs: 180 Atk / 76 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Low Kick
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam
- Taunt

The SpDef ensures that Mega Gengar's Shadow Ball won't OHKO MM2X from full since you speed-tie with it. The rest goes to Attack and Speed. If you're more worried about Ekiller, you could run the older 112 Atk / 144 Def / 252 Spe spread, but I feel MegaGar is a more prevalent threat atm and this spread gives MM2X more attack power as well. Also, that spread is meant for Jolly Life Orb Ekiller whereas Adamant still has a roll to kill you after rocks.

Ice Beam is way better than Ice Punch now due to the Latis being gone, and Ice Beam will enable you to 2HKO Zygarde-C and OHKO Mega Salamence after Intimidate, something Ice Punch would normally fail to do.

Edit: They're on the ladder now.
Perhaps I'm still far too much of a n00b here.... But why Jolly Nature? You're going for a mixed set, shouldn't it have Naive, or Hasty? Though then again, perhaps you're going for keeping some of its bulk. And perhaps the amount of power gained isn't enough to warrant the defense drop.

Still, I'm looking forward to more from these Megas.... I've always liked Mewtwo. And seeing its Megas in the game again is gonna be interesting.

Do you think Mega Mewtwo Y will have any use? Or just X?
 
With the mega speed buff, I see MMY's main use being as an answer to Mega Gengar, which it consistently outspeeds (vs speed tying with Mewtwo's other forms) and almost certainly OHKOs all variants of.

Otherwise, it has tended to rank slightly lower than normal Mewtwo (due to the opportunity cost of being a mega while functioning very similarly), and I can't think of any reason why that would change this gen. I can't imagine the reduced importance of sleep this gen has helped it either.
 
_Data_Drain_ you gain too little from a eg. Naive nature to compromise your bulk. Salamence needs extreme HP investment to even try for a roll to survive the negative natured Ice Beam and Zygarde is always 2HKOed anyways in perfect form (though you get a chance to kill from full with naive). That Rayquaza isnt able to take the Icebeam should be obvious. Since Ice Beam is only tailored to adress these threats, he little security in rolls you gain isn´t worth giving up its bulk. I hope that covers your question
 

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