Metagame SM Ubers General Metagame Discussion

Isn't this the old "how can you prove a negative?" Outrage is saying teams don't exist that can fulfill all those parameters, and idk how he can provide replays or 'evidence' of something not existing. If you don't think what he's saying is true, can't you post an example of a solid HO team that can beat Marshadow + stall w/o gimmicks? 'Cause I'm not sure what kind of evidence can be posted when he's saying a certain type of team doesn't exist.

Not trying to be snarky here btw Hack
 

Fireburn

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Isn't this the old "how can you prove a negative?" Outrage is saying teams don't exist that can fulfill all those parameters, and idk how he can provide replays or 'evidence' of something not existing. If you don't think what he's saying is true, can't you post an example of a solid HO team that can beat Marshadow + stall w/o gimmicks? 'Cause I'm not sure what kind of evidence can be posted when he's saying a certain type of team doesn't exist.
This is ultimately his responsibility - the burden of proof falls on those who think there is a problem to prove there is a problem. I'm not going to tell him how to do this, since he will learn more if he figures it out for himself.

I for one agree with Hack that the problems are overblown. We are barely a month into the Marshadow metagame and there's still plenty of room for creativity in the tier that remains unexplored. It is extremely premature to be making sweeping conclusions about the metagame when its so young. I want to be clear that Hack and I are perfectly willing to listen to grievances about the metagame, but in return we expect you to come to us with a well-reasoned argument and not just the unsubstantiated generalizations we've seen to this point. And I would encourage you to make an honest effort to adapt to metagame changes before you do. To risk sounding like a grade school teacher, I think you'll be surprised what you can accomplish if you apply yourself and think outside the box. The "complain first" mentality will only hurt your progress as a player.

We even have new games coming out in less than four months that we know almost nothing about. To quote the honorable Nayrz:



So this post isn't all doom and gloom I'm gonna share some sets that I think work nicely in the Marshadow meta (which I enjoy):

Arceus-Fairy @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Judgment
- Toxic
- Recover

This set owns in the current meta and is a great utility Pokemon for offensive teams. Checks Marshadow, checks Dragons, checks Yveltal, gets SR up consistently, and wears down the enemy PDon quickly through early Toxic. Not much not to like about this. It's perfectly possible to build a good offensive team with this mon that isn't PsySpam or Webs because it combines impressive defensive utility with incredibly consistent SR - the rocks aren't going anywhere while this mon is around, whereas PDon may have issues keeping up SR longterm vs Groundceus or Giratina/Sab. One of the big advantages of using this set is that it frees up Primal Groudon to go fully on the offensive, which is great at PDon tends to be much more effective against stall in general than Arceus formes. Great starting point for an offensive team with a Spikes lead and PDon, or it can work on a bulky offense approach. Xerneas isn't the only Fairy that can work on offense!

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Origin Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Substitute

One of the advantages of a slower metagame where stall and support Groundceus are common is that Primal Kyogre gets more chances to shine, especially in a metagame where the standard stall team leaves Ferrothorn at home. Just in case they have one though, Substitute allows Primal Kyogre to set up on Gyro-only sets and gives it a status shield against things like Zygarde and Chansey. +1 Origin Pulse does 69-81 to Toxapex so Thunder isn't required. Get a little damage onto Chansey and this will very likely beat a stall team (mostly) by itself.

Lunala @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Focus Blast

Oldie but goodie. Due to its poor synergy with the Toxapex mode of stall, Alolan Muk tends to be left at home in lieu of Tyranitar for Pursuiting needs. Marshadow has made bulky Dark usage go down in general sans Yveltal. Although Marshadow has more or less replaced Scarf Lunala, it can still fall back on its wallbreaking sets, which it does beautifully against teams that forgo Muk. Force out Toxapex to get a CM and start kicking butt. Not even Lugia is stalling this one out. Has good synergy with Celesteela/Zygarde based cores that tend to be effective against offense so Lunala can focus on beating down stall.

Rayquaza @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake / Aqua Tail
- V-create / Extreme Speed

More Z-move goodness, except this one is a recent development. +1 SSSS from Rayquaza cleanly OHKOes Lugia after Stealth Rock and all support Arceus that aren't Rock from full, making this set a nice sweeper and wallbreaker in one. The tricky part is setting up - your best bets are to force a switch, come in on a defensive Steel or blob, or employ Wobbuffet support (Wobb itself is a pretty fun and underrated mon, notably being extremely good vs Psyspam and creating setup opportunities + Safeguard buffers vs bulky teams), but with 1 DD this is terrifying. Coverage moves can be chosen based on team needs, just be sure to have one move that can kill rocks.
 
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Arceus-Fairy @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Judgment
- Toxic
- Recover


Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Primordial Sea
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Origin Pulse
- Ice Beam
- Substitute
This is deadweight vs HO from oras up until now.

Lunala @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Focus Blast

Rayquaza @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Air Lock
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Ascent
- Earthquake / Aqua Tail
- V-create / Extreme Speed
These sets are good (the lunala one vs stall mostly) but dont offer any defensive synergy and need special conditions (abscence of muk and rocks to be up) to stall break.

How 10 people can like a post with completely baseless claims that is almost 100 % theorymonning is beyond me.
Because people who are building for open right now can relate to what I'm saying lmao

The whole player base thinks there's a problem, still tds act like there's nothing. You can keep on doing that actually since the problem can not be solved without a complex ban or some weird measure so nvm if you admit or not the problem exists and the playerbase knows it.
 
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mags

Banned deucer.
Lord Outrage there might be a problem but you haven't brought up any reasoning thats worth jack shit to back it up. I fucking hate sumo yet I'm around all the time so I soak up all the information and sure I think there might be a problem but I think it's way to early to really make a fair judgment on what needs to be done. Everyone keeps asking for proof of this and that to support an argument but there really isnt any proof yet so just wait it out and see where the tier ends up in a little bit. Not to mention the new games coming out in 4 months will hopefully spice things up and make the tier healtier. Theorymonning and taking a guess on how the meta of sumo is gonna turn out is fine imo just backing up your predictions with some good reasoning will be helpful kinda like ttg. Sure not everyone is gonna agree but at least you get a healthy discussion rather than shit like "the tier sucks, the tier is unhealthy, the tier is not fun, the playerbase hates sumo". As far as fireburns sets go I like all of them and one that you can clearly taking a rise in usage is the fairyceus set. Lets not forget trout that on balance it's probably gonna start giving its ghost slot to marsh now in some cases making mgar a little bit less common.

Stop complaining and actually do something to help the tier. If you dislike it so much and aren't willing to do what it takes to make it better then just move on lmao plenty of other video games.
 

EternalSnowman

DPL Champion
Well since this has devolved into a giant shitshow I wanted to post something here with the rise of Arc-Fairy, I was one who thought Arc-Fairy was an amazing rocks setter since the beginning of SM and there are a few underrated sets that Arc-Fairy can utilitize.

Arceus-Fairy @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Judgment
- Toxic / Fire Blast / Stone Edge
- Recover / Fire Blast / Stone Edge

During my Ubers ssnl run I utilized an Arc-Fairy set that was SR + 3 attacks, which pretty much turned the game in my favor as I got rocks up, significantly weakened both Ho-oh and Celesteela. It allows offense to have a great SR setter without losing pressure vs. certain mons that might threaten the rest of the team. I thought this was appropriate to bring up since it is probably now the second best Arc form with it being one of the best SR setters rn.
 

Ropalme1914

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Mega Diancie is released, so what do you guys think about her? The new mega speed mechanic now really helped her, especially since it can use a 4 Attacks set, and it was already pretty decent in ORAS, but SM itself might not be as good, since Marshadow can easily revenge kill her, Lucario is a lot more common, and even Celesteela can be a problem for her. Magic Bounce is a great, but it cannot switch on Primal Groudon, the best rocker in the tier, and if it runs Hasty instead of Naive (does not look to bad for me, that way it can take Oblivion Wing into Dark Pulse from Life Orb Yveltal), even Zygarde-C can take a hit if it's full and have a nice chance to OHKO with Thousand Arrows after rocks.
 

kilometerman

Banned deucer.
Mega Diancie is released, so what do you guys think about her? The new mega speed mechanic now really helped her, especially since it can use a 4 Attacks set, and it was already pretty decent in ORAS, but SM itself might not be as good, since Marshadow can easily revenge kill her, Lucario is a lot more common, and even Celesteela can be a problem for her. Magic Bounce is a great, but it cannot switch on Primal Groudon, the best rocker in the tier, and if it runs Hasty instead of Naive (does not look to bad for me, that way it can take Oblivion Wing into Dark Pulse from Life Orb Yveltal), even Zygarde-C can take a hit if it's full and have a nice chance to OHKO with Thousand Arrows after rocks.
>her

Also balance especially balance revolving around Ho-Oh is probably going to receive a big boost since M-Diancie fits really well with common balance mons (especially Ho-oh, M-Diancie+Ho-Oh was a really good balance core last gen). I also think you're underestimating it, M-Diancie is going to be a lot more viable this gen and will (thankfully) help move the meta away from stalltism. Diamond Storm now has a 50% chance of boosting defense by 2 stages, (another way of looking at it is that it's a +1 boost each time) Also, mons that have seen much more usage this gen, like Yveltal, Zygarde-100, Lugia, Ho-oh, Giratina-A, and pretty much any toxic stallers or phazers all lose to M-Diancie. And after a +2 defense boost, M-Diancie does beat Marshadow.

The only real answer to M-Diancie that stall has right now is Groundceus which usually doesn't outspeed it unless you're running timid or jolly which I highly doubt a stall set would run. I'm really interested in this mon, I've been excited for its release and I think it's going to really help with the bulky and stall funk that imo the ubers is in right now
 
Balance will have a new toy to keep the webs away & that mean pdon won't be able to cheese the groundceus and these offense teams would need a better answer to groundceus
user SparksBlade drop a decent/fun core imo : Mdiancie+goth but this leave hole against HO
that mons ll shift the meta teams by a bit, but not like marshadow did, B+/A rank material
 

EternalSnowman

DPL Champion
>her

Also balance especially balance revolving around Ho-Oh is probably going to receive a big boost since M-Diancie fits really well with common balance mons (especially Ho-oh, M-Diancie+Ho-Oh was a really good balance core last gen). I also think you're underestimating it, M-Diancie is going to be a lot more viable this gen and will (thankfully) help move the meta away from stalltism. Diamond Storm now has a 50% chance of boosting defense by 2 stages, (another way of looking at it is that it's a +1 boost each time) Also, mons that have seen much more usage this gen, like Yveltal, Zygarde-100, Lugia, Ho-oh, Giratina-A, and pretty much any toxic stallers or phazers all lose to M-Diancie. And after a +2 defense boost, M-Diancie does beat Marshadow.

The only real answer to M-Diancie that stall has right now is Groundceus which usually doesn't outspeed it unless you're running timid or jolly which I highly doubt a stall set would run. I'm really interested in this mon, I've been excited for its release and I think it's going to really help with the bulky and stall funk that imo the ubers is in right now
jsyk arceus-ground runs 192+ speed on stall or just on all teams, as this is necessary for outspeeding MLuke, running slow arceus isnt worth it ever as stall teams need to cover these faster threats, outside of mluke, other threats need this speed control like rayquaza, mmeta, yveltal, and ada mmence, jollydon, all of which would be very threatening to stall otherwise.

192+ speed hits 356 if ur curious, which is 1 point higher than mluke's 355
 
Mega Diancie is released, so what do you guys think about her? The new mega speed mechanic now really helped her, especially since it can use a 4 Attacks set, and it was already pretty decent in ORAS, but SM itself might not be as good, since Marshadow can easily revenge kill her, Lucario is a lot more common, and even Celesteela can be a problem for her. Magic Bounce is a great, but it cannot switch on Primal Groudon, the best rocker in the tier, and if it runs Hasty instead of Naive (does not look to bad for me, that way it can take Oblivion Wing into Dark Pulse from Life Orb Yveltal), even Zygarde-C can take a hit if it's full and have a nice chance to OHKO with Thousand Arrows after rocks.
Diance with these this speed buff has gotten a little better. Its still threatened by most of ubers. It does check pdon mega salamence, zygarde-c , and other pokemon. Its role will be pretty similar to last gen just with the speed buff helping it not require protect.
 
Hm... so I noticed Darkrai dropped pretty far on the tier list.

Though, I'm kind of curious.... Is there any way to make it work, alongside Mewtwo? If not, is there a way for Darkrai to be decent on any Ubers team? I'm asking because Darkrai is one of my favorite Pokemon. And it would be a shame to completely drop it.
 

EternalSnowman

DPL Champion
Hm... so I noticed Darkrai dropped pretty far on the tier list.

Though, I'm kind of curious.... Is there any way to make it work, alongside Mewtwo? If not, is there a way for Darkrai to be decent on any Ubers team? I'm asking because Darkrai is one of my favorite Pokemon. And it would be a shame to completely drop it.
Darkrai is not very good due its main niche before being Dark Void, but without it, it is quite frail and is too weak unboosted. It is easily comparable to Marshadow, who is at the same speed tier, but is much more successful due to being stronger (with stronger stabs) and having a much stronger STAB coverage, making Darkrai almost obsolete, especially since it loses to a lot of common pokemon such as Arc-fairy, magearna, and xern while failing to 1v1 many significant pokemon. It relies on boosts to get kills but doesn't really have the opportunity to ever set up making it almost worthless in most scenarios. It is still usable if given the right circumstances, but has major flaws that hamper it. If you want to use it, then NP with either LO or zmove is the way to go, taunt is probably necessary and then focusblast or thunder should be your coverage move.
 
Ah... I was afraid of that.

A bit of a shame that one of my favorite Pokemon fell so hard. Because Gamefreak decided to go overkill on it's best move.

Anyway, thanks for the response. Maybe I can somehow still make it work.
 

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