Agreed, Victini's move pool is ludicrously wide, for it gets moves like Fusion Bolt, Blue Flare, and V-Create just to name a few. Scarf Victini is also quite a viable set for it, allowing to outspeed certain threats like Manaphy, Pelipper, and Volcarona. However, I don't think it should rise due to the popularity of Greninja and Landorous-T, both of which check it with little to no effort. Ground Types are also very popular in the OU tier as of now, and I don't think Victini should rise as long as that's the case.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
- Status
I know we aren't supposed to bring up lower ranked mons for a rise but since there were some people in the council who wanted this mon higher (at least as stated in the council slate thing from this update) I figured it would be ok to post about it (also Gary told me it was ok)
Chandelure C=>C+
I've used this mon quite a bit in the past couple of days and it's a really nice anti-meta pick rn. With Fire-types being rly good as well as Ghost STAB still being difficult to switch into, Specs Chandelure is able to dismantle a lot of these fat cores like CelePexClef or CeleVenusaur MewTangrowth etc that are being spammed on the ladder. It has some of the qualities that made Gengar rise in the past, but just with more power so things like Toxapex can't pivot into its Shadow Ball for free in exchange of the good speed tier. Overheat is also a very strong nuke that can blow through pretty much anything that doesn't resist (Clefable and Landorus-T get OHKOd for example) while also punishing offensive mons that try to switch into it and scare it out (Greninja takes 80 min, Keldeo takes 60, Zygarde takes 50). Another very underrated quality of Chandelure is being able to switch into Charizard-Y for free and prevent it from spamming Fire-type attacks, which is nice in this meta. Tyranitar can potentially trap it but it has to be wary of Energy Ball, which ohkos after rocks or with a good roll. Rocks are still an issue just like most Fire-types but rocks arent that hard to remove anymore with Mew Mantine and Latios being good. It's also only 2x weak to rocks so unlike Charizard Y or Volcarona it can switch into rocks a couple of times wihtout being immediately in range of most priority moves/straight up dying after 2 switchins. Taking a look at the rest of the C rank, there are some other wallbreakers like Hydreigon and Kyurem that are easier to wall and play around, whereas Chandelure has pretty much 0 defensive counterplay. I think C+ would fit it better, next to other niche wallbreakers like Primarina and Gardevoir, though I would argue its current effectiveness could make it B- worthy, though the lack of defensive utility outside of checking zard y doesnt help, whereas other mons like Camerupt bring more to the table defensive wise.
I've used this mon quite a bit in the past couple of days and it's a really nice anti-meta pick rn. With Fire-types being rly good as well as Ghost STAB still being difficult to switch into, Specs Chandelure is able to dismantle a lot of these fat cores like CelePexClef or CeleVenusaur MewTangrowth etc that are being spammed on the ladder. It has some of the qualities that made Gengar rise in the past, but just with more power so things like Toxapex can't pivot into its Shadow Ball for free in exchange of the good speed tier. Overheat is also a very strong nuke that can blow through pretty much anything that doesn't resist (Clefable and Landorus-T get OHKOd for example) while also punishing offensive mons that try to switch into it and scare it out (Greninja takes 80 min, Keldeo takes 60, Zygarde takes 50). Another very underrated quality of Chandelure is being able to switch into Charizard-Y for free and prevent it from spamming Fire-type attacks, which is nice in this meta. Tyranitar can potentially trap it but it has to be wary of Energy Ball, which ohkos after rocks or with a good roll. Rocks are still an issue just like most Fire-types but rocks arent that hard to remove anymore with Mew Mantine and Latios being good. It's also only 2x weak to rocks so unlike Charizard Y or Volcarona it can switch into rocks a couple of times wihtout being immediately in range of most priority moves/straight up dying after 2 switchins. Taking a look at the rest of the C rank, there are some other wallbreakers like Hydreigon and Kyurem that are easier to wall and play around, whereas Chandelure has pretty much 0 defensive counterplay. I think C+ would fit it better, next to other niche wallbreakers like Primarina and Gardevoir, though I would argue its current effectiveness could make it B- worthy, though the lack of defensive utility outside of checking zard y doesnt help, whereas other mons like Camerupt bring more to the table defensive wise.
Last edited:
Alakazam B -> B- or lower
When was the last time anyone actually used this thing on a serious team... Sure, sash counter is cool in theory but its far from splashable, and is its only niche. There are minimal reasons to ever use this over something like scarf Lele as a revenge killer, while it also lets in mons like AV magearna and celesteela for free. In general, this thing is completely irrelevant in OU.
Terrakion B -> B- or lower
This mon was ranked for its scarf set, and its scarf set is completely outclassed. Even infernape, 2 sub ranks lower, is superior to this mon as a scarfer. Infernape offers better pivoting abilities, a much better move pool and beats both volc and mage more consistently. The majority of its offensive sets, such as SD rockium, have no reason to be used over landorus t.
Rotom w B+ -> B or lower
This thing fails at almost every role it had in oras. Its a shit ground check, can't switch in more than once or twice to gren or rain abusers, and tang and venu can come in for free on any of its moves.
Gastrodon B- > B
This thing is honestly really solid on teams such as the ABR team recently used on ladder a lot with kartana, gastro, megatar etc. Its honestly superior to most of B- rn, like I would never put this mon in the same category as some ultra niche mon like mega sharpedo.
Mega Manectric B -> B-
This thing is honestly terrible right now. Mega venu shits on it, has extreme competition from koko, and loses to almost all common play styles right now. Its deadweight vs rain because of pert, dead weight vs balance because of mvenu and clef, obviously dead weight vs stall, and vs offense it does little that koko couldn't, outspeeding ash gren is nice, but its a mediocre check for it anyways because a few rounds of hazards and it dies to shuri anyways.
Amoonguss B+ -> B or lower
There is more or less 0 reasons to use this over mega venu. Usually in a game at the very best it can sleep one mon and then become set up fodder.
Deadweight vs any fat play style, pressured too much by offense. In general just bad lol
Tapu Fini B+ -> B
This mon is pressured way too much by tspikes and hazards in general, struggles vs stall now that tang is run frequently, as well as vs pink mons stall where zapdos is used. In general, more of a Digimon
Manaphy B- -> B
This just rose but its so dominant on both veil and bird spam that it fits much better in B. Honestly a bit of a crime to be ranked next to mons like zard x etc
Hawlucha B- -> B
A little less sure on this but it is very threatening on rain and still feels just "better" than the rest and closer to B rank. Just gonna put this one out for discussion or something
Jirachi B -> B-
This faces so much competition as a bulky steel type from ferrothorn, celesteela, magearna etc that its not worth using. Has minimal usage for a good reason.
Slowbro B- -> C+
This thing literally does nothing lol, shittier toxapex that loses to gren mage koko all when they're at their best rn
Mimikyu B -> B+
HO is at its peak right now, and this is a staple on almost all HO builds, in general think it fits better among the B+ mons. Super good emergency check for HO, and red card has been seeing some recent usage as well
Dragonite C+ -> B-
Because of its popularity on bird spam, I think it deserves a rise. Fly z dnite works very well in tandem with mega pinsir to break down common checks.
Kabutops and Omastar -> UR
Rain is pretty formulaic right now and neither of these mons fit. There is minimal reason to use either of these when mega pert, kingdra and ash gren are so good, there really is no place for either of these mons.
Breloom -> UR
I think this was talked about earlier, and this thing absolutely hates mega venu rising, and really can't do anything in the current meta.
Latias B -> B+
This mon is one of the best scarfers right now, and while the power difference from latios is a little noticeable, healing wish is worth it in this meta. This was touched on earlier so most of what I could say has been covered.
A few other mons that I think could rise but not sure on are Kartana, Kyub, Lop but I'm about 50/50 on those, I think they're sort of between B+ and A- right now.
Im also bad at writing descriptions but I think most are pretty self explanatory.
Edit: Also unrank gliscor lol it does absolutely nothing better than any of the common grounds do. In general doesn't beat a single common archetype
When was the last time anyone actually used this thing on a serious team... Sure, sash counter is cool in theory but its far from splashable, and is its only niche. There are minimal reasons to ever use this over something like scarf Lele as a revenge killer, while it also lets in mons like AV magearna and celesteela for free. In general, this thing is completely irrelevant in OU.
Terrakion B -> B- or lower
This mon was ranked for its scarf set, and its scarf set is completely outclassed. Even infernape, 2 sub ranks lower, is superior to this mon as a scarfer. Infernape offers better pivoting abilities, a much better move pool and beats both volc and mage more consistently. The majority of its offensive sets, such as SD rockium, have no reason to be used over landorus t.
Rotom w B+ -> B or lower
This thing fails at almost every role it had in oras. Its a shit ground check, can't switch in more than once or twice to gren or rain abusers, and tang and venu can come in for free on any of its moves.
Gastrodon B- > B
This thing is honestly really solid on teams such as the ABR team recently used on ladder a lot with kartana, gastro, megatar etc. Its honestly superior to most of B- rn, like I would never put this mon in the same category as some ultra niche mon like mega sharpedo.
Mega Manectric B -> B-
This thing is honestly terrible right now. Mega venu shits on it, has extreme competition from koko, and loses to almost all common play styles right now. Its deadweight vs rain because of pert, dead weight vs balance because of mvenu and clef, obviously dead weight vs stall, and vs offense it does little that koko couldn't, outspeeding ash gren is nice, but its a mediocre check for it anyways because a few rounds of hazards and it dies to shuri anyways.
Amoonguss B+ -> B or lower
There is more or less 0 reasons to use this over mega venu. Usually in a game at the very best it can sleep one mon and then become set up fodder.
Deadweight vs any fat play style, pressured too much by offense. In general just bad lol
Tapu Fini B+ -> B
This mon is pressured way too much by tspikes and hazards in general, struggles vs stall now that tang is run frequently, as well as vs pink mons stall where zapdos is used. In general, more of a Digimon
Manaphy B- -> B
This just rose but its so dominant on both veil and bird spam that it fits much better in B. Honestly a bit of a crime to be ranked next to mons like zard x etc
Hawlucha B- -> B
A little less sure on this but it is very threatening on rain and still feels just "better" than the rest and closer to B rank. Just gonna put this one out for discussion or something
Jirachi B -> B-
This faces so much competition as a bulky steel type from ferrothorn, celesteela, magearna etc that its not worth using. Has minimal usage for a good reason.
Slowbro B- -> C+
This thing literally does nothing lol, shittier toxapex that loses to gren mage koko all when they're at their best rn
Mimikyu B -> B+
HO is at its peak right now, and this is a staple on almost all HO builds, in general think it fits better among the B+ mons. Super good emergency check for HO, and red card has been seeing some recent usage as well
Dragonite C+ -> B-
Because of its popularity on bird spam, I think it deserves a rise. Fly z dnite works very well in tandem with mega pinsir to break down common checks.
Kabutops and Omastar -> UR
Rain is pretty formulaic right now and neither of these mons fit. There is minimal reason to use either of these when mega pert, kingdra and ash gren are so good, there really is no place for either of these mons.
Breloom -> UR
I think this was talked about earlier, and this thing absolutely hates mega venu rising, and really can't do anything in the current meta.
Latias B -> B+
This mon is one of the best scarfers right now, and while the power difference from latios is a little noticeable, healing wish is worth it in this meta. This was touched on earlier so most of what I could say has been covered.
A few other mons that I think could rise but not sure on are Kartana, Kyub, Lop but I'm about 50/50 on those, I think they're sort of between B+ and A- right now.
Im also bad at writing descriptions but I think most are pretty self explanatory.
Edit: Also unrank gliscor lol it does absolutely nothing better than any of the common grounds do. In general doesn't beat a single common archetype
I kinda have to disagree with you on a these.
Tapu Fini actually doesn't lose to stall at all thanks to taunt, which causes non attacking users to struggle. This means that walls are forced to swap out, allowing you to either get a free hit off, or swap out into another mon yourself, predicting the mon that they switch into. While it struggles to damage walls, Fini's bulk and usage of Taunt makes it a decent option against stall.
Jirachi's biggest niche in the meta is its ability Serance Grace, which doubles the effect of moves. This allows Jirachi to make use of scummy moves like Iron Head, Ice Punch, and others. I'd honestly argue that Jirachi is more an offensive mon that a bulky one, even though bulky Jirachi is somewhat viable. Scarf Jirachi is a set that I often use, and it is a viable set for Jirachi. And as for a fast attacker, Jirachi is a good one, because it's complimented by decent 100/100/100 bulk, and a strong defensive type.
Although Breloom isn't very viable in OU, its poison heal niche makes it good for shutting down toxic stallers like Chansey (even if there are no viable sets for poison heal, at least according to the articles on it). Breloom, also makes for a good Techincian user, because it has spore, and a solid offensive type. I don't think it deserves a rise, due to its poor bulk, somewhat shallow coverage, and lots of competition with Bulu and Tang.
Did u even read the post? Stall is using tang or zapdos both of which shut down Fini completely, not to mention mega sab is max spdef and can knock lefties and recover back to full bar crits.
"Scumming" is not a niche. Not to mention fire punch and ice punch are still only 20% and jirachi is a terrible choice for a scarfer being slower than SG mage, unable to beat volc and slower than other scarfers
Breloom hasn't used poison heal since gen 4 and literally has no usage in gen 7. Breloom honestly has no niche in ou at all
Ok, now I'm going to call you out, because it's becoming more and more evident that you really have no idea what you're talking about.
The metagame is extremely unfavorable to Breloom for a whole host of reasons, not least of which is that it loses to a huge majority of tier 1v1 and its only real niche, Spore, is hurt by the influx of Grass types such as Mega Venusaur and the popularity of mons like Tapu Bulu, Tapu Koko, and Tangrowth, and Poison Heal Breloom is a relic from gen 4 that has literally zero relevance in the current metagame.
There are next to no non-attacking mons on stall but that's irrelevant. He clearly said it struggles vs. stall now that Tangrowth is becoming more and more common on various stall builds, which is a perfectly valid point. Taunt isn't stopping Fini from losing to Tangrowth. This is not a counterpoint.
Simply stating a Pokemon's assets and offering no substance beyond that is not a valid argument for it to keep its rank. You've essentially said nothing we don't already know here and so nothing has been contributed to the discussion. You also failed to give counterpoints to the post you responded to yet again.
And here we get to the last point which makes me think you're subtly trolling us because you cite Poison Heal Breloom as a shutdown to Chansey as if Technician Breloom wasn't already, and cite the fact that it can take on Toxic users as if that's somehow unique and not a trait common to every single Steel type, Poison type, Substitute user, and Taunt user in the entire fucking tier.
The metagame is extremely unfavorable to Breloom for a whole host of reasons, not least of which is that it loses to a huge majority of tier 1v1 and its only real niche, Spore, is hurt by the influx of Grass types such as Mega Venusaur and the popularity of mons like Tapu Bulu, Tapu Koko, and Tangrowth, and Poison Heal Breloom is a relic from gen 4 that has literally zero relevance in the current metagame.
Last edited:
6ft Torbjorn
formerly JoycapJoshST
Slightly disagree with this. To justify this point - let's look at the current build of Ciele stall:
With the exception of Zapdos (which still loses it's ability to Defog, a cornerstone to the function of Ciele stall), all who have any incentive to stay in on Fini lose to taunt, with borderline no sure fire / 100% way to stop it. Mola loses it's ability to Wish/Protect, cannot Scald burn you due to Misty Terrain (Discharge Hax, which gives Zapdos even less incentive to stay in as well), and in some cases, is robbed of it's eject button in situations where the likes of Dugtrio may not be willing to trap it. Chansey and Clefable become sitting ducks to Taunt, and if you have something in the back that doesn't mind eating Moonblast/Seismic Toss spam (say, Zard Y - one of meta's best Megas), blood WILL be spilled. Skarm is much the same case, and knowing my earlier posts regarding it, I shouldn't have to explain this.
Double Hazard Removal Stall by Ciele/ilikepinkmons
Dugtrio @ Groundium Z
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 21 HP
- Earthquake
- Reversal
- Screech
- Substitute
Skarmory (F) @ Shed Shell
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Counter
- Toxic
Chansey @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Soft-Boiled
- Seismic Toss
- Stealth Rock
Clefable (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Moonblast
- Protect
- Heal Bell
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 176 SpD / 20 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Discharge
- Roost
- Defog
- Heat Wave
Alomomola (F) @ Eject Button
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 36 HP / 220 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Knock Off
- Scald
As for Tangrowth... I can see WHY (Knock + GD)... but I have to disagree again. For one, Misty Terrain shuts Sleep Powder off as an option, so 99% of the time Tang doesn't NEED to be taunted (analysis mentions that Sleep Powder is the only tauntable option), of which B) knowing how passive Tangrowth generally is, if you're not willing to take advantage of that with a given setup sweeper (example MSciz/Pinsir), well then... I pity you.
Tangrowth isn't really seen on Ciele either, which brings me to my next point - SabStall's supposed ability to block Taunt. Well... given that Sab has little to no incentive to stay in on Fini (even if it IS Sp.Def, which... why would you want to lose 12 recovers to this thing anyway lol?) is this not the reason Fini and others of it's ilk threaten stall in the way that they do? This is one of the surefire ways to beat Stall - give the roll of something that would be stopped by a given mon (say, MSab; Unaware Clefable etc.) to something that inherently threatens those mons, such as Tapu Fini / Mega Mawile / Rockium Lando-T or something like that. It should be blatantly obvious this gen, and a Fini drop indicates to me that we're willing to obliviously ignore that. Ergo:
Fini Drop - Disagree
Deleted User 400951
Banned deucer.
I think it's time for Tyranitar to rise to A. The rise of Zard y is beneficial, being an easy fit on those teams while disrupting opposing Zard Y's weather. Tox/Tang/Celes has a tough time taking Banded Stone Edges and crunches, and stall teams will lose at least one mon to it. It can also disrupt opposing rain. Pursuit trapping is getting more valuable with the rise of Mew and Latios. Balance archetypes in general are crushed by Ttar, and their rise to prominence along with other beneficial meta trends means that Ttar is better than Zapdos, Chansey and Mega Medicham and is on the level of Lele, Chomp and Ferro rn.
ash-greninja is currently one of the most absolutely threatening mons to terrorize the tier. it's splashable, easy to use, stupidly strong, it's really wild that there's been no discussion on it possibly moving up. it's one of the hardest pokemon to actually check because what can even attempt to switch-in to it gets blown completely back after taking spikes damage, those spikes of which it sets by itself. it's super easy to bait in those checks and chip away at them between spikes + how brutally strong it's stab moves truly are. keeping it from transforming isn't even much of a good strategy anymore; it pretty much forces it in nearly every matchup after a matter of time. it exerts so much pressure that you can't really find the chance to defog when it's constantly battering against you coupled with the fact mew is complete bait for it. scarf latios and latias take chip and after forced out after defogging. only mantine is able to consistently defog away greninja's spikes while no flat out losing to it.
the only realistic way these days to keep it at bay is with a healthy scarfer so it doesn't drop to water shuriken, a faster mon that can tank water shuriken (which is pretty much non existent), or to prance around it aggressively all the while taking chip from spikes. if you don't concentrate your efforts to get rid of it and minimize every feasible opportunity for it to threaten you, which in itself is difficult when facing a competent player, you will more than likely have a bad time. it seems no matter what new fads are devised to keep ash-gren at bay, trends are still in and will more than likely stay its favor. all in all, ash-greninja is the paragon of an s rank mon.
I want to add some more points to your proposal:a+ -> s
ash-greninja is currently one of the most absolutely threatening mons to terrorize the tier. it's splashable, easy to use, stupidly strong, it's really wild that there's been no discussion on it possibly moving up. it's one of the hardest pokemon to actually check because what can even attempt to switch-in to it gets blown completely back after taking spikes damage, those spikes of which it sets by itself. it's super easy to bait in those checks and chip away at them between spikes + how brutally strong it's stab moves truly are. keeping it from transforming isn't even much of a good strategy anymore; it pretty much forces it in nearly every matchup after a matter of time. it exerts so much pressure that you can't really find the chance to defog when it's constantly battering against you coupled with the fact mew is complete bait for it. scarf latios and latias take chip and after forced out after defogging. only mantine is able to consistently defog away greninja's spikes while no flat out losing to it.
the only realistic way these days to keep it at bay is with a healthy scarfer so it doesn't drop to water shuriken, a faster mon that can tank water shuriken (which is pretty much non existent), or to prance around it aggressively all the while taking chip from spikes. if you don't concentrate your efforts to get rid of it and minimize every feasible opportunity for it to threaten you, which in itself is difficult when facing a competent player, you will more than likely have a bad time. it seems no matter what new fads are devised to keep ash-gren at bay, trends are still in and will more than likely stay its favor. all in all, ash-greninja is the paragon of an s rank mon.
Toxapex running Shed Shell makes it much easier to chip it down and AV Tang is falling down in popularity because of how many mons it invites for free like Zard Y without Rock Slide, Ferrothorn without HP Fire etc..
With Fini being less used than in the past and Latios and Mew being the most common Defoggers, Specs Gren can setup Spikes that much easier.
Another aspect is always the potential threat of Protean Greninja with two more Sets gaining much more popularity which are Dual Hazards with Taunt or two attacks and Scarf U-Turn Greninja making Greninja as a whole more threatening the first time it is on the field. This is very important because earlier a Scarf Landorus-T can U-Turn against Greninja Turn 1 but with Scarf being much more common on Gren, Specs Gren has much more switchinitiative than ever.
The safest Specs switchins are Mantine, Spdef Celesteela, Amoonguss, Venu, Fini, Scarf Keldeo, Ferro, Pex, AV Tang, AV Magearna and Chansey and all of them are Spike bait except for Fini, who is falling down in usage. Mantine rising is a factor against it but being a cleaner, a breaker, revengekiller and someone who supports itself to sweep is something you could traditionally only achieve with Healing Wish Support.
Specs Gren has superb matchup against any HO team because those teams rely on sacking to bring in their threats safely which is undesirable to prevent the Ash Form. More defensive teams with predictable switch-ins just get Spiked on and unless your opponent makes a hard read, it is very hard to deal with this mon.
Last edited:
The dumbest part about Gren is without a doubt that you can't tell what set it's running, you can prep for Ash Gren all you want in a bulky offense team but AV Tangrowth takes a Gunk Shot and well shit you needed that for Zygarde and now you lost the game. All the hard checks minus Mantine get dumped depending on what set and having both the option to be an insane nuke, and the option to straight up kill it's normal switch-ins with Gunk (which if rocks are up that's not even true) or whatever is flat out dumb. Imo both should be S because the thing that makes Gren completely broken is that you can't safely tell what it is and both sets are insanely strong. You can't even use the argument for "the team preview tells what set" unlike with Zard because both sets work well on the same teams. Ash Gren is by far the more consistent of the two, though.
Last edited:
I agree that both sets should be S, but disagree that the unpredictability of Ash VS Protean is really convincing. The opportunity cost of trying to leverage that unpredictability is really high (I.e. Spikes are way better on the field than forcing mind games, etc).
I DO think that with respect to Protean Gren, its sheer versatility is worthy of S. It IS utterly unpredictable, but people oftentimes just steal the popular coverage options and those aren't necessarily S-worthy. Having the ability to check WHATEVER you want or bring WHATEVER UTILITY you want is S worthy for me, and I don't really know why we have been trying to dance around both Gren forms going to S for so long.
Yeah, it seems to have been a popular opinion that Protean Greninja suffers from 4MSS, and while it is true that it would appreciate to run more coverage, that's true for a lot of things. The fact that it can tun practically whatever four moves from a wide arsenal of good opinions and hit hard with all of them where it needs to, along with being able to provide good utility by threatining Pokemon out. Almost nothing can safely switch in before scouting a bit. It's presense alone is extremely threatening. While the metagame somewhat adapted to it after the Mega Metagross ban to a point where I no longer thought it needed a suspect test, I always thought it should've stayed S tier. I support both moving up for reasons already explained in the past few posts.
Protean Greninja should definitely be S rank. While its sheer versatility is something we all already know about, its taunt + dual spikes lead set is starting to gain traction once again as a potential 4th main set for it, further proving that Greninja is capable of doing almost whatever the hell it wants, whether it's an AoAttacker, LO Spikes setter, or Scarfed.
Ash-Greninja should also be S rank thanks to two factors. The main one, as robopoke said, is that Toxapex no longer runs Black Sludge and prefers Shed Shell nowadays, making one if its main defensive switchins easier to whittle down. With all of the switches it forces, it can potentially set up its own sweep with Spiking on the switch, which will make its grounded checks have a much harder time in dealing with it, especially Toxapex now that Shed Shell is the main item of choice, or mons that have no reliable recovery such as AV Magearna, Scarf Keldeo, and Ferrothorn (Leech Seed isn't consistent).
Ash-Greninja should also be S rank thanks to two factors. The main one, as robopoke said, is that Toxapex no longer runs Black Sludge and prefers Shed Shell nowadays, making one if its main defensive switchins easier to whittle down. With all of the switches it forces, it can potentially set up its own sweep with Spiking on the switch, which will make its grounded checks have a much harder time in dealing with it, especially Toxapex now that Shed Shell is the main item of choice, or mons that have no reliable recovery such as AV Magearna, Scarf Keldeo, and Ferrothorn (Leech Seed isn't consistent).
I'd like to add that 4mss with protean isn't really isn't a huge issue. It's Merritt is in it's flexibility. You can pick and choose coverage options based upon what your team already covers.
While on that note I'm going to echo above posts and posts from the previous page about Greninja. It's really versatile, and not unlike landorus and magearna it has a number of sets that are all equally deadly (based on matchup of course)
While on that note I'm going to echo above posts and posts from the previous page about Greninja. It's really versatile, and not unlike landorus and magearna it has a number of sets that are all equally deadly (based on matchup of course)
Ash gren does not have 4mss. It uses 3 moves with a flexible option. 4mss alludes to somthing that really wishes it could run a 5th option to not get rofl stomped by some thing; like mega zard x which wants to run dd/roost/dclaw/outrage/eq/flare blitz/thunder punch so It's not walled by whatever.
Tl; dr ash gren doesnt have 4mss, stop using it as a reasoning for a flaw
Tl; dr ash gren doesnt have 4mss, stop using it as a reasoning for a flaw
I already weighed in on Greninja like a month ago but I'll just restate that I believe either Protean should go to S or they should both go to S, and I'm leaning towards both.
EDIT:
Actually I do have a little more to say. At the time of writing that post I believed Protean Greninja was more worthy of S than Ash Greninja because of the fact that Protean has almost no safe switch-ins while Ash has a good handful (Ferrothorn, Fini, Chansey, etc.) but I'm going to recall that particular point because Ash Greninja really doesn't give a fuck about switch-ins since most of the time it just Spikes on obvious switches anyways. I still believe Protean is ever so slightly more worthy of S because of how difficult counterplay is to it until you know the set it's running but there's no denying Ash Greninja is probably worthy of S as well, and it puts a hell of a lot more pressure on various fast offense builds than even Protean does while still offering its team that ever important Spikes support.
EDIT:
Actually I do have a little more to say. At the time of writing that post I believed Protean Greninja was more worthy of S than Ash Greninja because of the fact that Protean has almost no safe switch-ins while Ash has a good handful (Ferrothorn, Fini, Chansey, etc.) but I'm going to recall that particular point because Ash Greninja really doesn't give a fuck about switch-ins since most of the time it just Spikes on obvious switches anyways. I still believe Protean is ever so slightly more worthy of S because of how difficult counterplay is to it until you know the set it's running but there's no denying Ash Greninja is probably worthy of S as well, and it puts a hell of a lot more pressure on various fast offense builds than even Protean does while still offering its team that ever important Spikes support.
Last edited:
moving protean greninja to s rank is flat out dumb. protean greninja is a big threat because of its coverage but its forced to run a life orb which makes it very easy to wear down with shit like celesteela and it can't break certain pokemon without the right coverage move. the "what your team covers" argument puzzles me because protean greninja really only has one flexible attacking slot when you think about because hydro pump, extrasensory, and spikes are pretty much mandatory. you cannot be getting walled by heatran, mega venusaur, and toxapex with your protean greninja right now. i personally find myself using 4 attacks more because of how coverage is so valuable in this metagame because breaking through celepex and the various heatran cores are very hard. z-gunk shot, z-extrasensory, and dual hazards are picking up in usage, but none of them are s rank sets. ash greninja i can see in s rank because it is played in a different mindset because of how it sets a sweep for itself, and it is pretty much unstoppable once it evolves.
basically, ash greninja puts more pressure on you when you are playing in game, but protean seems more threatening on paper. for the other megas:
mega altaria → b-
i thought this pokemon would run the metagame, but seems like i was wrong again, just like my opinions on mega sceptile and mega manectric. its way too easy to pressure with hazards and it needs a venusaur lure + fire-type / magnezone on its builds if it even wants to have a chance. best set is dd earthquake so it can beat toxapex and a weakened magearna 1v1. i prefer double-edge over return since it lets altaria put so much pressure on the opponent earlier in the game at the cost of its late-game which it will never be doing anyways because, yea, its bad. special sets, defensive dd, and body slam are not good this generation.
mega latias → b+
mega latias is the best answer to landorus-t in the metagame. you will not lose a pokemon to landorus-t if you have this pokemon which is lit. the recent liones (?) build has made me realize how useful this pokemon this pokemon be. it can thunder wave bullshit like clefable and magearna so say goodbye.
mega latios and ampharos are dogshit.
basically, ash greninja puts more pressure on you when you are playing in game, but protean seems more threatening on paper. for the other megas:
mega altaria → b-
i thought this pokemon would run the metagame, but seems like i was wrong again, just like my opinions on mega sceptile and mega manectric. its way too easy to pressure with hazards and it needs a venusaur lure + fire-type / magnezone on its builds if it even wants to have a chance. best set is dd earthquake so it can beat toxapex and a weakened magearna 1v1. i prefer double-edge over return since it lets altaria put so much pressure on the opponent earlier in the game at the cost of its late-game which it will never be doing anyways because, yea, its bad. special sets, defensive dd, and body slam are not good this generation.
mega latias → b+
mega latias is the best answer to landorus-t in the metagame. you will not lose a pokemon to landorus-t if you have this pokemon which is lit. the recent liones (?) build has made me realize how useful this pokemon this pokemon be. it can thunder wave bullshit like clefable and magearna so say goodbye.
mega latios and ampharos are dogshit.
Last edited by a moderator:
pizzq
Banned deucer.
hi
Tang A to A-: Tangrowth gets super whittled by spikes and tspikes alike, which sucks because everyone and their mother uses some form of hazard stack these days. Additionally, Tang is borderline dead weight vs the fat balance that’s infested tournaments and ladder alike. On a related note, Tangrowth hates fat Venu balance shooting up in popularity lately bc that mon abuses the fuck out of tangrowth.
Msciz/Kart to A-: M-Diancie, M-Altaria, and M-Latias being released just recently along with olt players spamming the fuck out of veil for easy wins on ladder are two metagame trends that are super nice for these mons. Also, scarf Kartana abuses the fuck out of rain which is common as fuck on ladder too.
Mantine to A-: Mantine is good as ever, switching into ash ninja, zardy, and all the other scary special ghouls in the tier bar a couple. Also it’s super nice to have a defogger with recovery rn since hazard stack is everywhere.
Kyurem-B to A-: Subzero slammer is an insane breaker that almost guarantees that something from stall is gonna get severely dented if they don't go hard water on the slammer like a fucking god. Also, it generally likes the uptick in fat teams bc it shreds them, mvenu balance in particular.
Tornt to B?: I’ve not used it too much lately, but the recent koko rise and everyone spamming celepex balance doesnt help it that much. The decline in SPL stall in favor of stalls with Celesteela and Zapdos really hurts tornt because it can’t stallbreak as well as it used to.
Infernape to B-: Infernape is a great scarfer that revenges most of the top threats rn and was ranked lower than it should've been initially anyways.
Sharpedo to C+ or lower: Go back to Bakugon where you belong.
Chandelure to C+ or B-: Specs Chandelure is an amazing nuke that can tear apart standard fat balances with relative ease and dodges trapping from Dugtrio. Obviously it doesn’t like the fact that bandtar is always paired with Zard-Y (one of the main mons it checks), but bandtar can’t switch directly in bc of how powerful eball is.
Ditto to C+: Ditto teams have been seeing a fuckton of use in olt and it can check a ton of the tier’s dangerous setup sweepers that would otherwise fuck some teams. Crawdaunt to C+: This mon is super good on trick room and has seen tons of ladder success in olt. Some people have tried replacing it with Azu and Araquanid only to realize they aren’t nearly as effective. Dark/Water boosted by adaptability is a nightmare for fat teams to switch into.
Unrank Omastar/Kabutops: Rain has better options for swift swim users that offer actual defensive utility and either hit harder/have options like rocks to provide role compression.
Tang A to A-: Tangrowth gets super whittled by spikes and tspikes alike, which sucks because everyone and their mother uses some form of hazard stack these days. Additionally, Tang is borderline dead weight vs the fat balance that’s infested tournaments and ladder alike. On a related note, Tangrowth hates fat Venu balance shooting up in popularity lately bc that mon abuses the fuck out of tangrowth.
Msciz/Kart to A-: M-Diancie, M-Altaria, and M-Latias being released just recently along with olt players spamming the fuck out of veil for easy wins on ladder are two metagame trends that are super nice for these mons. Also, scarf Kartana abuses the fuck out of rain which is common as fuck on ladder too.
Mantine to A-: Mantine is good as ever, switching into ash ninja, zardy, and all the other scary special ghouls in the tier bar a couple. Also it’s super nice to have a defogger with recovery rn since hazard stack is everywhere.
Kyurem-B to A-: Subzero slammer is an insane breaker that almost guarantees that something from stall is gonna get severely dented if they don't go hard water on the slammer like a fucking god. Also, it generally likes the uptick in fat teams bc it shreds them, mvenu balance in particular.
Tornt to B?: I’ve not used it too much lately, but the recent koko rise and everyone spamming celepex balance doesnt help it that much. The decline in SPL stall in favor of stalls with Celesteela and Zapdos really hurts tornt because it can’t stallbreak as well as it used to.
Infernape to B-: Infernape is a great scarfer that revenges most of the top threats rn and was ranked lower than it should've been initially anyways.
Sharpedo to C+ or lower: Go back to Bakugon where you belong.
Chandelure to C+ or B-: Specs Chandelure is an amazing nuke that can tear apart standard fat balances with relative ease and dodges trapping from Dugtrio. Obviously it doesn’t like the fact that bandtar is always paired with Zard-Y (one of the main mons it checks), but bandtar can’t switch directly in bc of how powerful eball is.
Ditto to C+: Ditto teams have been seeing a fuckton of use in olt and it can check a ton of the tier’s dangerous setup sweepers that would otherwise fuck some teams. Crawdaunt to C+: This mon is super good on trick room and has seen tons of ladder success in olt. Some people have tried replacing it with Azu and Araquanid only to realize they aren’t nearly as effective. Dark/Water boosted by adaptability is a nightmare for fat teams to switch into.
Unrank Omastar/Kabutops: Rain has better options for swift swim users that offer actual defensive utility and either hit harder/have options like rocks to provide role compression.
The flexibility is in choosing your counters. The opponent doesn't know your set, and there's basically no way for them to tell without testing you out, for example switching pex in and then back out to check for esense. This works in the ninja user's favor because they're on the back foot trying to scout your set, while you can choose to either predict the switch-in, spike, or attack what's in front of you if you have the right move.
The 'what your team covers' part follows this. Since they don't know your set, and you have 5 other mons to handle the ones greninja can't, you can make reasonably safe and beneficial plays, both with greninja using a move and with your double switches, while your opponent kind of has to make the obvious play and figure out your set.
Also you yourself just pointed out, in the sentence after saying spikes is mandatory, that you usually use 4 attacks instead. So is spikes really mandatory? Or hydro for that matter? Yeah in this meta esense is very good but you're not required to run it as long as you can make plays like spiking or doubling ('what your team covers') as your counter switches in.
I think protean ninja is a mon that's as good as its user, since it's so customizable as a standalone and as a team player. Anyway, idk if I'm convinced greninja is S rank. tho I wouldn't care if it were. but I believe protean ninja can still run whatever it wants viably.
Last edited:
Scarf Infernape is easily one of the best scarfers for bulky offense, I know I literally use Infernape all the time but Infernape is genuinely my go to scarfer when building teams for bulky offense. Magearna is such a bullshit mon that post shift gear Magearna can literally just 6-0 bulky offense because the only consistent switch in is mega Scizor which has to be above 60. Volcarona is another Pokemon that shits on TTarless bulky offense (I've been seeing Bug Buzz return too) and having scarf Nape shit on two of the most threatening sweepers is amazing. Also beats M-Scizor Automatize Celesteela etc which bulky offense can struggle with at times. Best part is unlike some scarfers (Chomp and Keldeo) you don't lose a shit ton of momentum when running it due to U-turn providing great offensive utility.
Scarf Infernape also does well vs HO due to how strong fire STAB is, U-Turn allows you to shift momentum in your favor vs balance especially if you have something like Dug and he does well vs stall for similar reasons.
I think Infernape is severely underrated, genuinely think more teams should run it in bulky offense instead of having to click X when they face common mons like Tyranitar, Magearna, etc.. You don't know how many times I've heard that lol. I support Nape to B personally but B- is probably more reasonable since I understand I'm the only one who is retarded enough to really be dedicated to this mon.
Scarf Infernape also does well vs HO due to how strong fire STAB is, U-Turn allows you to shift momentum in your favor vs balance especially if you have something like Dug and he does well vs stall for similar reasons.
I think Infernape is severely underrated, genuinely think more teams should run it in bulky offense instead of having to click X when they face common mons like Tyranitar, Magearna, etc.. You don't know how many times I've heard that lol. I support Nape to B personally but B- is probably more reasonable since I understand I'm the only one who is retarded enough to really be dedicated to this mon.
Last edited:
I've not played in the past 1.5-ish weeks because I've been on holiday and I've been focussing a bit more on NU>OU even before then, so my opinion won't necessarily be the best informed of anyone and isn't perfectly up to date, but honestly I agree with Vertex here.
The "pick your counters" thing is very much dependent on the conditions of the metagame in question, and at least when I last played the meta really wasn't in a position where it has flexibility to do that. Protean puts a lot of pressure on you in teambuilder and all, but he is right when he says that in a practical sense it is a lot less directly threatening than it is on paper. I think he undersells its flexibility a bit in the respect that I've seen all of four attacks, Spikes+3 Atks, dual Spikes+2 atks etc. (of which probably only the first two are worth arguing for S), but a Gren which is Tran bait (i.e. one w/o Hydro or Low Kick (does anyone even use Low Kick nowadays off of the Scarf set, or is that still just an early ORAS relic like it was two weeks ago?)) fucking sucks rn just 'cause Tran is probably the single most annoying Pokemon to face in the metagame atm and giving it a free sub is just (puke). IDK so much about MVenu 'cause, like I said, I'm two weeks behind at least on that 'mon, but you can say very similar things about Toxapex in the respect that you either end up trading hazards with it or just giving it free TSpikes if you lack ESense, neither of which are particularly things that you want to be doing unless you're running a Spikes Gren+grounded poison balance/BO yourself given just how disgustingly annoying TSpikes are just in general, and even before that it means that it is chipping away at your 11 attacks Gren gets 'cause of LO if you don't catch it with ESense as it switches in, which just sucks. I wouldn't even run it w/o ESense in this meta, and you can argue for shit like EBelt or Z moves or whatever to try and counter the wearing down argument, but these all come at the cost of hitting like a wet flannel on neutral hits because lol 103 SpA. Practically speaking, its only picking its counters with 1 slot because it will probably be carrying one of Ice Beam or Gunk Shot too if it isn't dual hazards or smth like that, and that's assuming you don't carry Spikes in the fourth slot (or even both Beam and Gunk).
That said, I can agree with an AshNinja rise because it puts WAY more pressure onto its opponent in a practical sense just due to the threat of transformation for any team that lacks Mantine, Chansey, Gastrodon, Amoonguss, or whatever else (if it's able to get a transformation off safely it's outright broken lol), and even then it just Spikes as they switch in so it's making headway regardless even if it can't transform. It is just very threatening, and I fear it a lot more than I do Protean ninja.
The "pick your counters" thing is very much dependent on the conditions of the metagame in question, and at least when I last played the meta really wasn't in a position where it has flexibility to do that. Protean puts a lot of pressure on you in teambuilder and all, but he is right when he says that in a practical sense it is a lot less directly threatening than it is on paper. I think he undersells its flexibility a bit in the respect that I've seen all of four attacks, Spikes+3 Atks, dual Spikes+2 atks etc. (of which probably only the first two are worth arguing for S), but a Gren which is Tran bait (i.e. one w/o Hydro or Low Kick (does anyone even use Low Kick nowadays off of the Scarf set, or is that still just an early ORAS relic like it was two weeks ago?)) fucking sucks rn just 'cause Tran is probably the single most annoying Pokemon to face in the metagame atm and giving it a free sub is just (puke). IDK so much about MVenu 'cause, like I said, I'm two weeks behind at least on that 'mon, but you can say very similar things about Toxapex in the respect that you either end up trading hazards with it or just giving it free TSpikes if you lack ESense, neither of which are particularly things that you want to be doing unless you're running a Spikes Gren+grounded poison balance/BO yourself given just how disgustingly annoying TSpikes are just in general, and even before that it means that it is chipping away at your 11 attacks Gren gets 'cause of LO if you don't catch it with ESense as it switches in, which just sucks. I wouldn't even run it w/o ESense in this meta, and you can argue for shit like EBelt or Z moves or whatever to try and counter the wearing down argument, but these all come at the cost of hitting like a wet flannel on neutral hits because lol 103 SpA. Practically speaking, its only picking its counters with 1 slot because it will probably be carrying one of Ice Beam or Gunk Shot too if it isn't dual hazards or smth like that, and that's assuming you don't carry Spikes in the fourth slot (or even both Beam and Gunk).
That said, I can agree with an AshNinja rise because it puts WAY more pressure onto its opponent in a practical sense just due to the threat of transformation for any team that lacks Mantine, Chansey, Gastrodon, Amoonguss, or whatever else (if it's able to get a transformation off safely it's outright broken lol), and even then it just Spikes as they switch in so it's making headway regardless even if it can't transform. It is just very threatening, and I fear it a lot more than I do Protean ninja.
Hey.
I think your indication that XYZ moves are mandatory RIGHT NOW is what more or less proves our point more. The fact that Greninja is a Pokemon that adapts to all meta shifts by changing its coverage is WHY we say it's S ranked. You go on to talk about an enumerous host of sets that are being used, and once again I feel that emboldens our point. The fact that there are SO MANY coverage options used right now (despite their viability), just points to an incredibly difficult mon to face. If you're assuming Hydro/Spikes/Extrasensory because that's the best combo in the meta, but then you get bopped by Hydro/Esense/HP Fire/DPulse, or its running ANY other coverage, you start to see why this thing is so fucking good. It is an enormous amount of mindgames in one Pokemon, and I don't think you can just write it off as its most common sets aren't S-ranked. Aegislash had ONE S ranked set in XY, and a ton of other ones that just happened to also be good too. Greninja is more versatile than Aegi ever was, so I think that versatility deserves S rank.
Please avoid talking about Aegislash or previously banned Pokemon to support your argument. Aegislash was not just an S rank Pokemon, it was an incredibly centralizing force that completely centered the metagame around itself and invalidated a very large portion of the metagame from actually being good. Greninja is a good Pokemon no doubt, but comparing it to Aegislash is just an extreme hyperbole. Just because Greninja can run more sets than Aegislash did (even though that alone isn't the most accurate statement considering it wasn't around long enough) which was one of the best Pokemon to ever step foot in OU, doesn't automatically qualify Greninja for S rank. Versatility alone does not make an S rank Pokemon, it can just factor into it.
Terrible comparison. Aegislash warped the meta around it while Greninja is adapting to the meta. Don't compare these two Aegisalsh is leagues ahead of Greninja.
I'm sick of this versatility shit. Versatility is good but it doesn't single handedly keep a mon out of s rank or put it there. So ur telling me if Aegislash is legal it can't be s because everyone runs the same shit on it. Greninja is not versatile it attacks or it lays up hazards it can run different moves but that just leaves it beat by different shit. This mon isn't S right now. It loses to some of the most common Pokemon. I don't care if it can run one move to beat that shit it cant run them all at the same time so it loses to that.
Also just a side note ur using dpulse greninja as an arguement
Edit: Gary just had to snipe the post while I was writing this with exactly what I said I've been duped
- Status