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Absolutely agree with mega medicham to A-. In fact I would not be surprised if it were nominated to be A. Here's the metagame shifts that I think justify this raise.

The Decline of Mew.

  • About a month or two ago when PhysDef mew was on so many teams, it was seriously difficult to use mega medicham. Since that point, there have been two significant changes surrounding mew. The first is that it has simply dropped in usage a considerable amount. As always, the metagame adapts and mons like Ash Gren, Fairium-Z Mag, Bug Buzz Volcarona, Darkinium-Z Kartana, and plenty more began to spring up. Plus, other defoggers began to see more usage so the competition was pretty high from stuff like Mantine, Scarf Lati, Mega Sciz, Zapdos, Etc. So that's my long-winded way of saying: Mew is less common now.
  • A second adaptation we've made is the really cool Koko + Medi core. This makes thunder punch do obscene amounts of damage. Most mews are running speedier sets, outspeeding stuff like jolly zygarde. Medicham abuses this because this mew does not run enough speed to outspeed you, but it is still sacrificing that extra bulk for the speed. This less-bulky mew does get 2HKO'd most of the time from T-punch after rocks (Which it will usually come in on, considering it's the defogger of the team)
    252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 240 HP / 156 Def Mew in Electric Terrain: 175-207 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Tapu Koko Core

  • I cannot stress the synergy between these two. Think of the most common koko switch-ins. Ferrothorn, AV Magearna, SpDef Tran, Chansey, AV Magnezone, Tangrowth, Mega Venusaur, etc. Koko Volt switches (Or U-turns) on every single one of these threats, and Mega medicham can come in and pick up a kill for free.
  • Another thing Medicham benefits from koko is electric-terrain boosted T-punches which I mentioned earlier. Mew is not the only thing it can muscle past. Other mons include Mega-Sableye (Not that stall exists anymore lol), Celesteela (Removes the would-be 50/50s with protect as well as simply doing more damage than HJK), Clefable, and a few more mons that medi can beat with thunder punch like mantine and fini.
Existence of CelePex

  • Medicham, especially when paired with Koko, absolutely disassembles this core. We talk about how important it is for a breaker to be able to bust past this core, and none do it better than Mega Medicham.
  • In fact, bulky teams as a whole really are common nowadays. Slower fat teams in general are everywhere, and with CelePex at the core, medicham can bust past them easily. Other aforementioned mons that have been seeing more play include Mega-Venu and Mantine among others that I won't bore you guys in repeating.
Anyways, needless to say I think Mega Medi is more than deserving of A- at the very least. It absolutely is better than the likes of skarm or weavile, and is on par (If not better than) many A- mons like zapdos, Mega Sab, Pelipper, and Mega Lop.
I think it's nice that you've put a lot of effort here AHappyCactus but there are actually a lot things I consider outright wrong here or they just aren't recent additions to the meta game.

For one Mew hasn't dropped in usage the past two months it's actually got MORE popular. For the month of august Mew had a usage of 10.26575% in ou above 1825 and in September it had a usage of 11.42156% in the same category. Mew hasn't exactly fallen out of favour much in tournaments either it's still liberally used on tons of balance teams. Similarly Clefable is decidedly more popular at the moment and that's a fair check to jolly Medicham anyway. Unless you are running adamant on your Medis which has it's own issues like being slower than tons of important stuff in the tier like offensive Lando and Tapu Lele.

Tapu koko + Medicham is something we've had literally since Medicham was released. It was actually extremely popular upon release. This isn't new at all and shouldn't cement a raise on the VR for it now. It's also a lot more prediction reliant than you were letting on. Back when Dugtrio was around it was more important but it's still relevant now. It's basically a 50/50 between your opponent going to their ground type to eat the t-punch or staying in to wisp/recover and electric terrain is somewhat short lived. It's also an extremely telegraphed play. If your Koko immediately pivots out into Medicham and they have a solid Medi switch in like Mew most decent players are going to be smart enough to realise that you are running t-punch.

Celesteela Toxapex balance is again not a new thing. This is literally months old and also guess what. These teams do actually run Mew and Clefable a lot of the time. Neither Celesteela nor Toxapex are able to deal with Zygarde so if they aren't using Lando or Bulu something like Mew or Clefable is actually a likely partner on these teams. That goes double because they can also defog/setup rocks which is something Celesteela and Toxapex cannot do and again these CelePex users are conscious of Medicham and might decide to use Clefable or Mew just to deal with it. Mew actually appreciates having Toxapex on the same team because it absorbs T Spikes for it so again these are common partners.

I'm not saying Medicham shouldn't rise but I don't find these arguments compelling at all. Furthermore i struggle to see many reasons to use Medicham over something like 3 attacks roost Charizard X or Mega Pinsir. It's main advantage is not being rocks weak but I don't think that's huge enough to say it's marginally better than those two when they are better at breaking teams open. If Medicham ends up rising I would at least hope to see Charizard X rise as well.
 
I think it's nice that you've put a lot of effort here AHappyCactus but there are actually a lot things I consider outright wrong here or they just aren't recent additions to the meta game.

For one Mew hasn't dropped in usage the past two months it's actually got MORE popular. For the month of august Mew had a usage of 10.26575% in ou above 1825 and in September it had a usage of 11.42156% in the same category. Mew hasn't exactly fallen out of favour much in tournaments either it's still liberally used on tons of balance teams. Similarly Clefable is decidedly more popular at the moment and that's a fair check to jolly Medicham anyway. Unless you are running adamant on your Medis which has it's own issues like being slower than tons of important stuff in the tier like offensive Lando and Tapu Lele.

Tapu koko + Medicham is something we've had literally since Medicham was released. It was actually extremely popular upon release. This isn't new at all and shouldn't cement a raise on the VR for it now. It's also a lot more prediction reliant than you were letting on. Back when Dugtrio was around it was more important but it's still relevant now. It's basically a 50/50 between your opponent going to their ground type to eat the t-punch or staying in to wisp/recover and electric terrain is somewhat short lived. It's also an extremely telegraphed play. If your Koko immediately pivots out into Medicham and they have a solid Medi switch in like Mew most decent players are going to be smart enough to realise that you are running t-punch.

Celesteela Toxapex balance is again not a new thing. This is literally months old and also guess what. These teams do actually run Mew and Clefable a lot of the time. Neither Celesteela nor Toxapex are able to deal with Zygarde so if they aren't using Lando or Bulu something like Mew or Clefable is actually a likely partner on these teams. That goes double because they can also defog/setup rocks which is something Celesteela and Toxapex cannot do and again these CelePex users are conscious of Medicham and might decide to use Clefable or Mew just to deal with it. Mew actually appreciates having Toxapex on the same team because it absorbs T Spikes for it so again these are common partners.

I'm not saying Medicham shouldn't rise but I don't find these arguments compelling at all. Furthermore i struggle to see many reasons to use Medicham over something like 3 attacks roost Charizard X or Mega Pinsir. It's main advantage is not being rocks weak but I don't think that's huge enough to say it's marginally better than those two when they are better at breaking teams open. If Medicham ends up rising I would at least hope to see Charizard X rise as well.
I'm on mobile so apologies for being unable to respond with a post that has cool pictures and colors lol

I suppose I should have clarified where I meant Mew had fallen, allow me to do that now. I was thinking more in terms of A) Viability, where it went from A to A- and B) In tournament play. Just using snake draft as an example, it dropped from 18% to 10%. I didn't even look on high ladder for usage stats so that's my b.

Yeah I wasn't saying medi + koko is anything new so much as I mean it's hands are not as tied as they once were. Removal of duggy, drop in usage of zygarde, make clicking specs volt switch a lot less risky. Although there has been a rise in drill since those days, the anti lead set is countered perfectly by medi, as fake out to breaks the sash and you out speed the following turn.

I don't think medi should have dropped to B+ in the first place to be honest, I think it fits much better in A-

I'm not at all saying it is without counters, just that the very limited counters it has are not quite as hard to handle as they seem. Yes this does mean it requires some support from its teammates - as every mon does - but in comparison to something like Pinsir and Zard, I would say that the no weakness to stealth rocks is huge, as these two are obviously super weak to them. Another advantage is you have far Moreno versatility with medicham than you do with the other two. Thunder punch I talked about in depth, fake out is incredibly useful in its own right, zen head butt is reliable and strong STAB that can be terrain boosted, ice punch destroys lando, etc. The others are rather one dimensional. (For the record I also think Zard X should go up to a-, but I have far less experience using it in this meta so I'm not comfortable speaking to it)

As for prediction reliance... I'll give that to you. No Pokémon is perfect, medi isn't the exception at all. I just think that because of all that, it does justify a raise to at least A-. Lots of your problems with it are valid but like of course it's got issues. I'm not saying bring it to S rank, but I do think A- is a better place for it to be.

(I'd tag you but again, on mobile RIP)
 
Medichamp in no way is better than the rest of B+ rank like zard x roost + 3 attacks its only countered by quagsire, garchomp needs more prediction than medichamp but it kills or weakens lando + Fairy core for its teammates, gengar spams mindless Ghost attacks and while it has problems vs Av mag but because of the lack of recovery that garbage is not a counter and its a great trade because then something like scarf Lele or specs Ash Ninja sweeps and to pursuit gengar you need to sack something first so gengar already did his job and the pursuit weakness becomes a bonus when you have a free turn to set up like lets say sg magearna or hawlucha, so in the wallbreaker tier list mega medichamp is not that much better than the other breakers in B+ and if we moved medichamp to A- then that would mean that mega medichamp is almost as good as mega pinsir which is just a gross thing to say also if there was a mon to rise from b+ rank that should be mega pert, rain is so easy to spam and build and most ferros are specially defensive.
 
Medichamp in no way is better than the rest of B+ rank like zard x roost + 3 attacks its only countered by quagsire, garchomp needs more prediction than medichamp but it kills or weakens lando + Fairy core for its teammates, gengar spams mindless Ghost attacks and while it has problems vs Av mag but because of the lack of recovery that garbage is not a counter and its a great trade because then something like scarf Lele or specs Ash Ninja sweeps and to pursuit gengar you need to sack something first so gengar already did his job and the pursuit weakness becomes a bonus when you have a free turn to set up like lets say sg magearna or hawlucha, so in the wallbreaker tier list mega medichamp is not that much better than the other breakers in B+ and if we moved medichamp to A- then that would mean that mega medichamp is almost as good as mega pinsir which is just a gross thing to say also if there was a mon to rise from b+ rank that should be mega pert, rain is so easy to spam and build and most ferros are specially defensive.
Good post, but in the future you should separate it into paragraphs. It makes it very hard for not just me, but for others to read and discuss with you as well. AV magearna also isn’t garbage at its one of magearna best sets.
I have a nomination to make by the way.
Mega camel from c+ to b-.
I have litterally no idea why Camel dropped. I understands it is matchup based, but it’s way less so than the rest of C+, especially shuckle, and even some of the b ranks.
Camerupt loves balance being nice everywhere right now, as he legit eats it alive. It 2HKOs a bunch of balance staples like clefable, celesteela, toxapex, and mega Venusaur.
Offense is admitly a worse matchup, but he can still put in work on offense to. Camerupt walls Tapu Koko and can get a free attack off of the omnipresent bulky steels. Offenses best switchin is latios, which is pretty shaky as it’s best set, scarf, has no reliable recovery, and Camerupt can be paired with pursuit if this is an issue. Speaking of pursuit, Camerupt also loves Tyranitar rising in viability. Tyranitar is an amazing Camerupt partner, as he traps latios and forms a wallbreaking Core that gives balance teams headaches. The only matchup I can see camerupt dead weight is against stall. Thankfully, Stall has dropped down in usage like a rocket, another thing Camerupt loves.
Although Magearna dropping in usage does hurt Camerupt, these metagame trends, as well as being
Leagues ahead of the rest of C+ make me feel Camerupt deserves to be sent back to B-.
 
Adding on to above Camel has very little reliable switch-ins depending on what coverage it runs (Rock Slide, Ancient Power, Nature Power (TBolt, Energy Ball, Moonblast)) and the only consistent switch-ins is like Chansey which walls most special attackers anyway and maybe Lati@s, but they get hit with the rare moonblast. Water types get wrecked by Tbolt or Energy Ball for the Water Grounds, Dragon get hit with Moonblast (although much rarer) and most do not like Fire Blast/Earth Power anyways. Plus it can use the switches it forces to do stuff like set Rocks. It also can be an emergency check to quite a few frail attackers thanks to its good typing and bulk.
 

Leo

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The problem with all of these Mega Camerupt arguments is that getting Camerupt into the game to get kills to begin with isn't an easy task, and all of these arguments seem to put it in a perfect situation (ie Camerup is in against a mon it forces out with the necessary terrain up to hit the incoming switchin). Like yea Camerupt can do work in these scenarios but as proven in the last couple of months Camerupt isn't an easy mon to get onto the field, which has led to its fall since its release after the hype died. I know I'm going full sedertz here, but being used in snake twice with a 50% winrate isn't too impressive, specially considering that one game it didn't do much. Camerupt is one of those mons that seem great on paper, which leads to people supporting it and pushing for its rise as they have been doing for the last few pages, but the mon just isn't great right now. You could argue that it gets on the field with koko support or mzor or doubles or anything you can come up with but the truth is that as long as they're just made up examples and the mon itself doesn't bring results they're not going to convince anyone for a rise.
 
Sorry first post so I hope it is ok to post here. But reading the above discussions about the mega Cammel, I've messed with it on Showdown a number of times and it's 100% usable, but it's an incredibly niche wallbreaker, and I think the biggest knock against it is, it does take your mega slot, and you have to build a team and strat around making it succeed. Me personally I don't value highly mon that need a large amount of factors to go right to succeed.
 
The problem with all of these Mega Camerupt arguments is that getting Camerupt into the game to get kills to begin with isn't an easy task, and all of these arguments seem to put it in a perfect situation (ie Camerup is in against a mon it forces out with the necessary terrain up to hit the incoming switchin). Like yea Camerupt can do work in these scenarios but as proven in the last couple of months Camerupt isn't an easy mon to get onto the field, which has led to its fall since its release after the hype died. I know I'm going full sedertz here, but being used in snake twice with a 50% winrate isn't too impressive, specially considering that one game it didn't do much. Camerupt is one of those mons that seem great on paper, which leads to people supporting it and pushing for its rise as they have been doing for the last few pages, but the mon just isn't great right now. You could argue that it gets on the field with koko support or mzor or doubles or anything you can come up with but the truth is that as long as they're just made up examples and the mon itself doesn't bring results they're not going to convince anyone for a rise.
I don't post often but it is not that hard to get M-Camel in good situations. I use it with Koko and Gren and it's so easy to get M-Camel in. For instance, Tang and Steela are respective checks and switch-in to the aforementioned threats. It is easy to click U-Turn on an incoming Tang or Steela (or double for the more likely non-Turn Gren). Camel is now in against the mons it wants to nuke. You can even throw Pex into that too since Camel should outspeed unless you're building like an idiot.

Now as for getting it in the proper terrains, I don't even think that's too outrageous. Koko draws in Camel fodder and easily pivots out. Bulu draws Steela and M-Venu and those can be read and doubled accordingly. I can't speak too much on this though as I opt for a Sub set over Nature Power. Sub lets you figure out what the opponent's Camel switch-in is, and then said switch has to soak a heavy hit (for instance Fini getting bopped by EP). This can possibly render said check to no longer check M-Camel.

Sorry first post so I hope it is ok to post here. But reading the above discussions about the mega Cammel, I've messed with it on Showdown a number of times and it's 100% usable, but it's an incredibly niche wallbreaker, and I think the biggest knock against it is, it does take your mega slot, and you have to build a team and strat around making it succeed. Me personally I don't value highly mon that need a large amount of factors to go right to succeed.
You're using M-Camel wrong then. You don't build around M-Camel. I use Camel around my win-cons of Z-Koko and Protean Ninja. Camel rips through most of the major bulk mons in the tier (i.e. Tang, Pex, Steela, Clef, M-Venu) making it easy to eliminate or severely weaken the checks to a lot of mons. You don't build the team around Camel, Camel clears the way for what you are building around.

M-Camel should rise. It destroys so many bulk cores, it is not that hard to get in position to devastate teams, and it's so much more than a Nature Power gimmick.
 

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I don't post often but it is not that hard to get M-Camel in good situations. I use it with Koko and Gren and it's so easy to get M-Camel in. For instance, Tang and Steela are respective checks and switch-in to the aforementioned threats. It is easy to click U-Turn on an incoming Tang or Steela (or double for the more likely non-Turn Gren). Camel is now in against the mons it wants to nuke. You can even throw Pex into that too since Camel should outspeed unless you're building like an idiot.

Now as for getting it in the proper terrains, I don't even think that's too outrageous. Koko draws in Camel fodder and easily pivots out. Bulu draws Steela and M-Venu and those can be read and doubled accordingly. I can't speak too much on this though as I opt for a Sub set over Nature Power. Sub lets you figure out what the opponent's Camel switch-in is, and then said switch has to soak a heavy hit (for instance Fini getting bopped by EP). This can possibly render said check to no longer check M-Camel.



You're using M-Camel wrong then. You don't build around M-Camel. I use Camel around my win-cons of Z-Koko and Protean Ninja. Camel rips through most of the major bulk mons in the tier (i.e. Tang, Pex, Steela, Clef, M-Venu) making it easy to eliminate or severely weaken the checks to a lot of mons. You don't build the team around Camel, Camel clears the way for what you are building around.

M-Camel should rise. It destroys so many bulk cores, it is not that hard to get in position to devastate teams, and it's so much more than a Nature Power gimmick.
I usually lurk in this thread but I'm sorry I have to disagree with Mega Camerupt rising. As Leo said, its insanely hard to get on the field since a lot of hard hitters and a pivot such as Tapu koko won't always be able to predict the right switch and will usually have to switch out in fear of getting revenge killed by a Scarfer or something. And Mega Camerupt will only put in damage only if you're up against balance, a situational Pokemon as hyper offensive teams with Mega Gyarados are running around. After something dies to M-Camel, it will easily be forced out and sack momentum due to how easily its worn down, and its hard to collect more than 1-2 kills per game. You could even run other Mega Evolutions, I honestly don't see why you'd run Mega Camerupt over Mega Medicham or Mawile, two better balance breakers that also have access to priority and speed, in Medichams case. Camerupt just isn't as good as Victini, Mega Gallade, or even Mega Gyarados, and should not be ranked alongside them.

Also I definitely support Mega Medicham moving up to A-. It's definitely a threat to be reckoned with even if you aren't using balance, as its priority also allows it to be a threat to more offensive oriented teams. Facing Medicham without a Mew or a Mega Sableye is insanely hard, as it collects KOs almost every time it gets a free switch in. Not gonna elaborate too much on this one since above users have already said enough

Bisharp, on the other hand, is fine at B-. It's still a good setup sweeper and defog punisher with defiant and has a powerful Knock Off, and the dropping viability in playstyles its used on is already displayed in its drop in rankings over the last 2 weeks. Darkinium Z Bisharp is a huge threat and can use Landorous T's intimidate or Swords Dance to set up and use a Z move as an insanely powerful nuke. BPGXMG I don't see why you keep on pushing Bisharp down as its fine where it is at the moment.
 
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I usually lurk in this thread but I'm sorry I have to disagree with Mega Camerupt rising. As Leo said, its insanely hard to get on the field since a lot of hard hitters and a pivot such as Tapu koko won't always be able to predict the right switch and will usually have to switch out in fear of getting revenge killed by a Scarfer or something. And Mega Camerupt will only put in damage only if you're up against balance, a situational Pokemon as hyper offensive teams with Mega Gyarados are running around. After something dies to M-Camel, it will easily be forced out and sack momentum due to how easily its worn down, and its hard to collect more than 1-2 kills per game. You could even run other Mega Evolutions, I honestly don't see why you'd run Mega Camerupt over Mega Medicham or Mawile, two better balance breakers that also have access to priority and speed, in Medichams case. Camerupt just isn't as good as Victini, Mega Gallade, or even Mega Gyarados, and should not be ranked alongside them.

Also I definitely support Mega Medicham moving up to A-. It's definitely a threat to be reckoned with even if you aren't using balance, as its priority also allows it to be a threat to more offensive oriented teams. Facing Medicham without a Mew or a Mega Sableye is insanely hard, as it collects KOs almost every time it gets a free switch in. Not gonna elaborate too much on this one since above users have already said enough

Bisharp, on the other hand, is fine at B-. It's still a good setup sweeper and defog punisher with defiant and has a powerful Knock Off, and the dropping viability in playstyles its used on is already displayed in its drop in rankings over the last 2 weeks. Darkinium Z Bisharp is a huge threat and can use Landorous T's intimidate or Swords Dance to set up and use a Z move as an insanely powerful nuke. BPGXMG I don't see why you keep on pushing Bisharp down as its fine where it is at the moment.
I think that first bit sums it up, to move up to B- tier as a mega, you are essentially saying it is in some shape or form on par with the other megas in the tier, M Gyara and M Gallade. I would love to hear a stance, like actually i mean it i would love to hear it, that the Cano-Cammel is at that same power level. I think C+ is a fine spot for it until we see even more mons ranked. Like as a hypothetical example let's say somehow Unfezant makes it to C+ OU, which is my secret plan, and we can say Camerupt is better than Unfezant, then yes bump it up, but until then, it's at a good spot.

Also yes plz on Mega Medicham, i've been playing with a few different sets, it actually has a lot of versatility, which i think is pretty important.
 
I usually lurk in this thread but I'm sorry I have to disagree with Mega Camerupt rising. As Leo said, its insanely hard to get on the field since a lot of hard hitters and a pivot such as Tapu koko won't always be able to predict the right switch and will usually have to switch out in fear of getting revenge killed by a Scarfer or something. And Mega Camerupt will only put in damage only if you're up against balance, a situational Pokemon as hyper offensive teams with Mega Gyarados are running around. After something dies to M-Camel, it will easily be forced out and sack momentum due to how easily its worn down, and its hard to collect more than 1-2 kills per game. You could even run other Mega Evolutions, I honestly don't see why you'd run Mega Camerupt over Mega Medicham or Mawile, two better balance breakers that also have access to priority and speed, in Medichams case. Camerupt just isn't as good as Victini, Mega Gallade, or even Mega Gyarados, and should not be ranked alongside them.

Also I definitely support Mega Medicham moving up to A-. It's definitely a threat to be reckoned with even if you aren't using balance, as its priority also allows it to be a threat to more offensive oriented teams. Facing Medicham without a Mew or a Mega Sableye is insanely hard, as it collects KOs almost every time it gets a free switch in. Not gonna elaborate too much on this one since above users have already said enough

Bisharp, on the other hand, is fine at B-. It's still a good setup sweeper and defog punisher with defiant and has a powerful Knock Off, and the dropping viability in playstyles its used on is already displayed in its drop in rankings over the last 2 weeks. Darkinium Z Bisharp is a huge threat and can use Landorous T's intimidate or Swords Dance to set up and use a Z move as an insanely powerful nuke. BPGXMG I don't see why you keep on pushing Bisharp down as its fine where it is at the moment.
I think that first bit sums it up, to move up to B- tier as a mega, you are essentially saying it is in some shape or form on par with the other megas in the tier, M Gyara and M Gallade. I would love to hear a stance, like actually i mean it i would love to hear it, that the Cano-Cammel is at that same power level. I think C+ is a fine spot for it until we see even more mons ranked. Like as a hypothetical example let's say somehow Unfezant makes it to C+ OU, which is my secret plan, and we can say Camerupt is better than Unfezant, then yes bump it up, but until then, it's at a good spot.

Also yes plz on Mega Medicham, i've been playing with a few different sets, it actually has a lot of versatility, which i think is pretty important.
Mega Camerupt is matchup based, but so is the rest o b-. And mega Camerupt is way better than the rest of C+. Azumarill is terrible in a toxapex and Tapu Lele meta, Dragonite is outclassed by every other DD sweeper, Manectric is an inferior Tapu Koko, Nihilego requires a lot of support and is extremely easy to Wall, Shuckle only fits on one of the worst playstyles in the metagame, Aroura veil is dead, Marowak Alola only fits on OTR, Slowbro mega and thundurus are extremely difficult to justify using on a serious team, and hippowdon faces a lot of competition as a bulky ground type. If you look at b-, Mega gallade is an inferior Medicham whose only niche is to beat mew, Terrakion faces so much competition for a scarfer and is deadweight on a lot of bulkier builds, and tornadus is simply a terrible balance breaker and stallbreaker, as it’s walled by toxapex. I don’t think Camerupt is worse than these Pokémon, especially Gallade. Mega gyarados is better than Camerupt, I will give you that, but this doesn’t exactly mean Camerupt isn’t b- worthy.
Mega camel isn’t as deadweight against offense like everyone says it is, as Tapu Koko is not uncommon on that team archetype, and Camerupt can come in, (Preferably after a double or death fodder) and starts wrecking havoc, as offenses best switchin is scarf latios, a very shaky check as it has no recovery,
And is 2HKOed by fire blast after SR. Mega Camel can also easily switch in on the bulky steels offense always carries.
Camerupt also isn’t as Matchup based as everyone says it is thanks to balance being extremely common, Tapu Koko and Bulky steel usage. Admittly, Camerupt is deadweight against stall, but that is a much less common playstyle then it once was.
One of you said that Camerupt faces competition from other balance breakers. While this is true, Jirachi also faces a lot of competition from bulky steels, Mamoswine faces a lot of competition from other wallbreakers, And there is very little reason to run Gallade over Medicham. The B- lineup also faces competition from the higher ranks.
Camerupt doesn’t deserve to go to A, but he definitely can go to a fairly low rank of B-.
 
This is more of a post of how I understand viability and how you can legitimiate drops if you use the same strategy:

To see if a mon actually deserves its current ranking it has to prove itself of that ranking. The higher the rank, the more frequent this proveprocess has to happen. Any highranked mon has a huge impact on the metagame. To showcase the impact of a mon, it needs a certain usage so people can see it in action and if it has a huge impact, people should be inclined to use it more often.
From that we can assume, that very low usage mons cannot be highly ranked. This can be changed if more people use it effectively and realize how amazing it actually is. If these people fail to use that lowusage mon effectively, the old ranking or even a worse ranking is justified. This is why win percentage in important tournamentplay actually matters for lowusagemons and other factors (it walled threat x,y,z in this matchup or swept through a notorious defensive core).

Even if these people fail to use these mons effectively, usually the mons ranking can be secured by using the "it is unexplored"- or "people overprepare"-argument. These are powerful arguments which can stall decisionmaking but on the contrary, it only works or at least it should only work for a limited period of time.

People might assume that if nothing happens around mon x then its current ranking is fine. I consider viability as something that constantly decreases, unless proven otherwise in good replays or tournament play. This assumption makes sense, because if nothing happens you def. do not deserve to rise but do you also deserve the old ranking? This is something I would answer with NO.
 
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Geez, can't we just close this Mega-Camerupt chapter finally? People talk about this nonstop in this VR thread since it's release, there are 107 other pokemon in the Viability Ranking to discuss. Feels like some people oversell this thing way too much to be honest.

Azelf should stay at C : It is right that Excadrill serves a better role most of the time due to better typing, Ability and Rapid Spin, but you shouldn't forget that Azelf has some advantages over Excadrill, namely the higher speed stat combined with Taunt, which let's it get up Rocks while preventing the opposing setter from doing the same thing. Explosion helps as a last resort against incoming Defogs or Rapid Spins. Fire Blast allows it to handle Ferrothorn, Kartana and Scizor better as Excadrill can. While you tend up using Excadrill the most of the time, Taunt, high speed stats and Explosion warrant a spot in the ranking in my opinion
 

AM

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Azelf is honestly a horrible mon and it's not so much that Excadrill serves the better role, it's the fact that suicide leads as a concept are just terrible in the current meta from what I've tested. There's few exceptions with only a handful of teams but you're putting yourself in these 5v6 situations in most cases and the suicide lead is seen coming from a mile away thus making it easier to counterplay. This is a similar problem that Webs and Veil Offenses face because as mentioned dedicated leads with no large defensive utility is a very high risk role with reward that I personally don't think equals the gain. The benefit of the doubt can go to mons like Uxie on Trick Room as an example because again, it has a defensive traits useful to that archetype, throw up rocks, and most importantly last more than 2 turns.

You can not afford to waist a slot in the current state of SUMO OU, and suicide leads is doing exactly that with some minor exceptions. I used a team with Azelf about a week back to test it out and I ended up changing it out for Omastar......for the better. It has offensive presence (actual offensive presence), can set up with Shell Smash in front of M-Diancie to threaten it out and lay down rocks, doesn't care about burns in front of M-Sableye with Magic Bounce being this stupidly absurd roadblock for Azelf regardless if it uses Skill Swap or not, and most importantly can set up Spikes and SR. Hell I could make a case for Cloyster doing the same thing because it can set up Spikes or Tspikes for an offense and spin off opposing rocks but this is hypothetical.

In the grand scheme of things though both of these mons, Cloyster and Omastar, still overall suck as leads which circles right back to the point of suicide leads just not being consistent or useful. Uxie and Cress should either go up a rank or some stuff should drop to C-, because regular Slowbro and Talonflame is actually a better mon than the stuff in C ranks right now but they're all the way in C- mostly out of low usage.
 

Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
Yeah, Azelf should go to UR. The last time we saw success with it was xtra$hine birdspam. That's dead. I haven't seen anything really good with Azelf since then, and exc has shown itself to be the better lead - not as though suicide leads are good, AM is right.

I also don't believe Camerupt mega should go up. Yes, it's a phenomenal breaker but it's definitely harder to get into play than people think. It is a slow Mon with a questionable defensive typing and is vulnerable to all hazards. It also still takes your mega slot. P much what everyone else has said at this point.

I was gonna go after you LL but I was too busy laughing.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
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Camerupt could not be easier to get in lol, you send out Tapu Koko, they switch in their Ferro, Tangrowth, Venu, Megnezone and then you volt switch or U-turn into Camel and get a massive hit off. Idk if it should rise or not because idk what the ranking team's requirements are but please don't act like its so hard to get in. This is what U-turn and Volt Switch are for.
 
Yeah, Azelf should go to UR. The last time we saw success with it was xtra$hine birdspam. That's dead. I haven't seen anything really good with Azelf since then, and exc has shown itself to be the better lead - not as though suicide leads are good, AM is right.

I also don't believe Camerupt mega should go up. Yes, it's a phenomenal breaker but it's definitely harder to get into play than people think. It is a slow Mon with a questionable defensive typing and is vulnerable to all hazards. It also still takes your mega slot. P much what everyone else has said at this point.

I was gonna go after you LL but I was too busy laughing.
Having been around the block since gen 4, Azelf tends to rise up when people need a bit of a catch all mon. It's just fast enough to do a few set ups with taunt, it can trick, it can status, you can run it both physical and special, and it can explode. I agree Azelf should probably drop to UR, but I bet we see it again, it's a swiss army knife.
 
Camerupt could not be easier to get in lol, you send out Tapu Koko, they switch in their Ferro, Tangrowth, Venu, Megnezone and then you volt switch or U-turn into Camel and get a massive hit off. Idk if it should rise or not because idk what the ranking team's requirements are but please don't act like its so hard to get in. This is what U-turn and Volt Switch are for.
But couldn't you always use that as a reply, for getting in any mon?

Heatran and Volcanion come to mind for doing pretty much the same thing. Sure their spA stat may be lower than camerupt, but they hit hard enough for what needs to be hit.
I don't see what 'rupt really has over them, except for walling Koko which admittedly may be a huge boon after all
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
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But couldn't you always use that as a reply, for getting in any mon?

Heatran and Volcanion come to mind for doing pretty much the same thing. Sure their spA stat may be lower than camerupt, but they hit hard enough for what needs to be hit.
I don't see what 'rupt really has over them, except for walling Koko which admittedly may be a huge boon after all
Because in the specific scenario of Nature Power Camerupt, you WILL be pairing it with Koko. So the argument that you can't get it in is stupid. Of course you can get it in, its best partner gets it in for free by forcing switches into stuff it counters. I never said Heatran or Volcanion can't also do that, I said that Camerupt doesn't have issues getting in.
 
I'd also like to say with regards to M-Camel, that it's biggest drawback from its days in B- was that Dugtrio killed it pretty freely. We still ranked it B-. It has gotten better now that it's not guaranteed to die anymore. I know the Dugtrio ban doesn't immediately make mons more viable. However, in Camel's case it absolutely does. It has more longevity and can possibly kill a couple things now rather than just one. And back then it was still B-.
 
Hello!
In my opinion, keldeo should drop to B+
It is not that effective in SM OU as it was in ORAS. pretty much because of one reason Toxapex.
Keldeo really struggles to get kills because Toxapex is everywhere also popularity in mantine as deffoger hurts its usage.
Scarf keldeo is still good because it hard checks gren but dark pulse does a good chip so keldeo can't constantly switch in. Also scarf protean gren checks volc better than keldeo also people these days often pack like Mantine/ Payapa Tox for Volcarona. And rising popularity of Latios and Kartana as a revenge killer hurts keldeo. Latios can trick while Kartana has power and keldeo has neither.
While spamming specs scald is still effective but again the same reason Thapex. Burn nerf means Mons like Venu can come more often because it takes less residual damage.

While on the contrast, keldeo has good speed tier and pretty spammable Stan and secret sword is just good. I've been using CM Z-hydro taunt and it just too op for any Mon not named Toxapex and it still can taunt the pex to avoid haze/toxic but it still not effective.

Even after being a bit of versatile it just countered by only one Pokémon which is super common. There are better scarfer as revenge killer and specs is not as effective as it used to be. And it's both stabs are resisted by common typings and if we compare its mates in A- than I'd say it would be at the last rank.
 

Gary

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RANKING UPDATE

Rises
UR ---> C+

Drops
B+ ---> B
B ---> B-
B- ---> C+
C ---> C-
C ---> UR
C- ---> UR
C- ---> UR

  • Mega Latios has seen a couple of uses in Snake for its ability to basically act as a stronger, more durable Latios with the ability to 2HKO Pokemon such as CB Tyranitar and AV Magearna with EQ, as well as OHKO Heatran. Mega slots are not nearly as important on teams atm, so it is decently common to find Latios on a team with no Mega, making Mega Latios a fine choice. Read my post if you want more info on why it rose, considering the VR team used that as a baseline.
  • Skarmory dropped mainly because its niche on stall is less significant considering stall is way less dominant post Arena Trap ban, and it faces heavy competition on balance teams from Celesteela, as well as other Spike users.
  • Zard-Y finds very little wiggle room in this meta with Toxapex being extremely dominating, and it having no real way to break through it without Dugtrio. There are just very little reasons to build with it in this meta, and all current Zard-Y builds have other issues too.
  • Bisharp is a strong breaker but has a lot of issues fitting on most team builds due to how it faces competition from other breakers, and is usually only found on niche HO teams. It's not really a bad Pokemon, but it's just not really something people build with, and despite its decent wallbreaking potential, it's just so hard to fit onto most teams it's viability suffers because of it.
  • Azelf has taken quite a hit in viability as an HO lead with Excadrill giving it a lot of competition due to its Mold Breaker ability and Rapid Spin. HO in general has also fallen off a decent amount.
  • Infernape's main niche was a Scarfer that could revenge both Volcarona and Shift Gear Magearna. With Shift Magearna falling off quite a bit, and less teams relying so much on Scarfers to deal with Volcarona, Infernape is just really hard to justify on any serious team anymore. If not facing a Volcarona or Shift Gear Magearna team, it's pretty much useless, and very easy to wear down with hazards. It's also really weak in general, so it can't even revenge kill that much, and basically lets Lando in for free.
  • Togekiss' main niche at the beginning of the gen was that it could break stall, but with stall falling off quite a bit and more stallbreakers becoming viable with the Arena Trap ban, Kiss is basically useless. It can't really do much vs offense, can't really break balance, and will still lose to Zapdos stall regardless. Bad Pokemon, should have been unranked earlier.
  • Smeargle faces stiff competition from Shuckle, a much better Sticky Web user, and Webs in general is just not that great right now.

Skarmory B+ to B: everyone agreed
Zard-Y B to B-: everyone agreed
Bisharp B- to C+: all agreed but myself
Mega Camel C+ to B-: everyone disagreed so can we stop talking about this now
Mega Latios UR to C+: all agreed
Azelf C to UR: most said C-
Infernape C to UR: most said UR
Togekiss C- to UR: all agreed
Smeargle C to UR: mostly everyone agreed


Depressing slate in all honesty, aside from Mega Latios rising. But yeah Mega Camel going up has been a unanimous no for like the last 2 slates, so can we please stop talking about it. Nothing has changed to make this better, it's an absolutely huge paper threat but is just not that amazing in practice. I think it was B- during the time where sweeping Magearna sets were extremely dominant, but now with AV being one of the only really common sets, it's just not so amazing. It's still a decent breaker, but nothing special.
 
Mega Gallade really needs to go down to C+.
Mew dropping in viability further really hurts Gallade, as breaking through it is it’s only niche over Medicham. Gallade mega was only used once in the entire snake draft, and it lost. It also sees very little usage elsewhere. If you look at B-, Gallade is worse than almost all of them, except for charizard y and Terrakion, but I wouldn’t be opposed to those dropping to, especially Terrakion. While stall losing popularity does help it, Gallade is extremely hard to justify using on a serious team right now, and it’s ranking should reflect that.
 
Mega Gallade really needs to go down to C+.
Mew dropping in viability further really hurts Gallade, as breaking through it is it’s only niche over Medicham. Gallade mega was only used once in the entire snake draft, and it lost. It also sees very little usage elsewhere. If you look at B-, Gallade is worse than almost all of them, except for charizard y and Terrakion, but I wouldn’t be opposed to those dropping to, especially Terrakion. While stall losing popularity does help it, Gallade is extremely hard to justify using on a serious team right now, and it’s ranking should reflect that.
I disagree on that Gallade drop, but I completely agree on Terrakion, specifically I think there are a lot of underutilized fighting types and rock types that I think see the rumblings of just from casual OU play, I think we might see a few things bubble up that outclass a lot of what Terrakion does. M-Gallade I think is fine where it is, thing still hits like a truck, and I think it's better than a lot of the megas in the C+ tier, especially M-Cammel, we should have a discussion on that one :p
I beat a few teams last night using my Unfezant team, so basically what I'm saying is that Unfezant S+ tier.
 
I disagree on that Gallade drop, but I completely agree on Terrakion, specifically I think there are a lot of underutilized fighting types and rock types that I think see the rumblings of just from casual OU play, I think we might see a few things bubble up that outclass a lot of what Terrakion does. M-Gallade I think is fine where it is, thing still hits like a truck, and I think it's better than a lot of the megas in the C+ tier, especially M-Cammel, we should have a discussion on that one :p
I beat a few teams last night using my Unfezant team, so basically what I'm saying is that Unfezant S+ tier.
Mega Gallade main problem isn’t its actual effectiveness, it’s main problem is that it’s flat out inferior to Mega Medicham outside of being able to beat mew. Mew has been going down in usage, and thus not many teams need Gallade over medicham anymore, especially when mew has many splashable checks and counters. Gallade may be more effective than the C+ mons, But there is just very little reason to use Gallade in the current meta, and it’s ranking should reflect on that.
Gallade doesn’t really hit like a truck before a swords dance boost likes it’s base attack would suggest, mainly becuase it cant hold an item. For instance, Gallade always fails to 2hko clefable without psychic terrain.
Gallade is just plain overrated in B-, and saying it’s as good as victini or Mega Gyarados is just not true.
Gallade mega for C+, heck I could even see arguments for it to go down to C, but Dropping 2 subranks isn’t usually the best idea.
 
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