Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

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Small nom here:

Diancie-Mega A --> A-

I've been using this thing quite a bit lately in a new team and I have to say, it really hasn't done much at all. It's main niche blocking hazards is very important in this meta but it really doesn't do it particulary well, as it is threatened by the best hazard setters. Even though it wins 1V1 against most of them, it still isn't relaible as if you mispredict and try to switch it in to block SR it can just get EQ'd or earth powered by lando/heatran. It loses to Ferro without HP Fire and it needs some chip for that anyway and it is destroyed by Gren so can't really prevent it spiking. It can't safely switch in to any of the relevant hazard setters right now, not even Pex as it can't take scalds well. Outside of magic bounce, it doesn't have many notable features as it's speed tier is not brilliant this gen and although it is reasonably powerful, it is not particularly difficult for offense to handle and fatter teams don't really have much trouble against it either. It's generally the first thing to be sacked when I get into a spot of trouble and often hasn't done anything notable beforehand. I'm not saying it's terrible right now, but it certainly isn't on the same level as the other A mons, such as Gren or Clefable. It fits in much better with the likes of Keldeo and Tangrowth down in A- IMO.
 

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I think Mega Diancie and Magnezone is a very dangerous combo in the current metagame, paired with grass / ground immunity of course. I'm not sure if its fair to state Mega Diancie is worse off than Clefable, Greninja perhaps but Greninja as a whole is broken anyways and its a top A mon when I look at that rank. Magic Bounce is a bonus, its used as an offensive threat first to begin with. I also believe Mega Diancie is a bit unexplored in terms of various movesets people will use like Magnet Rise to block SR Lando and grounds in general, SR, SubEndeavor, Max Attack Diamond Storm, etc. which is where the perception of lack of effectiveness comes from such as the above post. Arguable to but it's not that much worse or even in terms of effectivess as the A- mons to me at least. Stuff like Mew is easy to overload with any decent team I feel and Keldeo / Lopunny still have issues against any build with Toxapex / bulkier stuff that doesnt care about their stabs. Think it would be fine to keep it at A even if it's a weaker mon in that rank for viability.
 
Small nom here:

Diancie-Mega A --> A-

I've been using this thing quite a bit lately in a new team and I have to say, it really hasn't done much at all. It's main niche blocking hazards is very important in this meta but it really doesn't do it particulary well, as it is threatened by the best hazard setters. Even though it wins 1V1 against most of them, it still isn't relaible as if you mispredict and try to switch it in to block SR it can just get EQ'd or earth powered by lando/heatran. It loses to Ferro without HP Fire and it needs some chip for that anyway and it is destroyed by Gren so can't really prevent it spiking. It can't safely switch in to any of the relevant hazard setters right now, not even Pex as it can't take scalds well. Outside of magic bounce, it doesn't have many notable features as it's speed tier is not brilliant this gen and although it is reasonably powerful, it is not particularly difficult for offense to handle and fatter teams don't really have much trouble against it either. It's generally the first thing to be sacked when I get into a spot of trouble and often hasn't done anything notable beforehand. I'm not saying it's terrible right now, but it certainly isn't on the same level as the other A mons, such as Gren or Clefable. It fits in much better with the likes of Keldeo and Tangrowth down in A- IMO.
So yeah, Diancie has magic bounce, can we stop thinking a Pokémon’s ability is the reason why it’s ranked? Might as well have Keldeo drop because it can’t make good use of justified, as it’s a special attacker. A Pokémon’s ability is almost never why something’s ranked, (exceptions include mega Sabeleye and Talonflame in gen 6.)
Base 160 offenses is not something I call reasonably powerful, I’d call it extremely powerful. Furthermore, it’s matchups are not as bad as you claim them to be. Offense has an extremely tough time to switch in to diancie Stabs and coverage, the rock polish variant actually destroys offense. Stall teams have really fell from grace, and balance has a very hard time switching in to diancies stabs and nature power. Diancie almost always dents something so it’s teammates can clean up, so I don’t know why you think diancie is as useless as you are making it out to be.
I’m not terribly opposed to a diancie drop, but you haven’t presented an argument why the best mega in the tier should drop.
 
Diancie is no A- rank worthy because its like the best mega and it offers a lot of utility, standar 4 attacks covers a lot of the meta leaving only shit like mega venu and chansey walling that set but other diancie sets lure diancie counters like nature power + psyquic terrain or psyquic or just running endeavor, also 3 attacks + SR is a great hazard setter cause it beats mega sableye and other defoggers like mew, skarm and zapdos even a defensive mega scizor loses to HP fire cause diancie easily gets a defense boost with Diamond storm then unboosted bullet punch fails to kill so not even scizor is a diancie counter.

For example a battle where moskito cup had a lot of Fairy answers (chansey, mega venu and probably skarm) but he loses cause diancie was able to lure on all of them leaving Lele to clean the rest of the team also kinda important how diancie mitigated the hazard war so he wasnt able to set up hazards.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-650550570

Diancie puts work vs ck James stall it beats chansey and quagsire also tang couldnt recover enough with regenerator so diancie could just spam attacks.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-653977481


Diancie beats ck James stall again because skarm is not a fairy counter.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-650554738

So diancie obviously is not a mega mawile (that shit is broken) but diancie has enough power to help break stall like SR + 3 attacks which gets the rocks up vs sableye stall or endeavor + 3 attacks which lures shit like chansey.

Also some uncommon but good sets like rock polish 3 attacks breaks offense once the celestela is gone and because diancie forces a lot of switch ins then its easy to set up also diancies unmega bulk is quite good like it allows diancie to tank hits like hawlucha at +1

+1 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Diancie: 195-229 (80.9 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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So yeah, Diancie has magic bounce, can we stop thinking a Pokémon’s ability is the reason why it’s ranked? Might as well have Keldeo drop because it can’t make good use of justified, as it’s a special attacker. A Pokémon’s ability is almost never why something’s ranked, (exceptions include mega Sabeleye and Talonflame in gen 6.)
Base 160 offenses is not something I call reasonably powerful, I’d call it extremely powerful. Furthermore, it’s matchups are not as bad as you claim them to be. Offense has an extremely tough time to switch in to diancie Stabs and coverage, the rock polish variant actually destroys offense. Stall teams have really fell from grace, and balance has a very hard time switching in to diancies stabs and nature power. Diancie almost always dents something so it’s teammates can clean up, so I don’t know why you think diancie is as useless as you are making it out to be.
I’m not terribly opposed to a diancie drop, but you haven’t presented an argument why the best mega in the tier should drop.
He never said that it is only good because of its ability. And no its not really as powerfull as it looks even with a 160 SpA stat as it cant hold an item (k its still strong lol but thats what he said anyways). Also I´d say that switching into Diancie is not as hard as switching into Mega-Medi which is B+ only. Switch-Ins include AV-Magearna, Celesteela, M-Venu, AV Tangrowth and the more and more common Gastrodon. Switching Diancie in itself is probably harder lol. Also ppl run SpDef Toxapex more so it can also pivot in. Even with other coverage in Psychic and Nature Power (which requires support) Diancie loses coverage so it has a harder time against other mons. Dealing with priority from M-Sciz which is getting more attention and Ash-Gren makes Diancies life also a lot harder while most Scarfers can revenge it easily.

Imo the ability to use SR while also beating most defogers and preventing hazard on its own give Diancie really the edge. I wasnt really sure at the beginning but now I think it should stay in A.
 
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He never said that it is only good because of its ability. And no its not really as powerfull as it looks even with a 160 SpA stat as it cant hold an item (k its still strong lol but thats what he said anyways). Also I´d say that switching into Diancie is not as hard as switching into Mega-Medi which is B+ only. Switch-Ins include AV-Magearna, Celesteela, M-Venu, AV Tangrowth and the more and more common Gastrodon. Also ppl run SpDef Toxapex more so it can also pivot in. Even with other coverage in Psychic and Nature Power (which requires support) Diancie loses coverage so it has a harder time against other mons. Dealing with priority from M-Sciz which is getting more attention and Ash-Gren makes Diancies life also a lot harder while most Scarfers can revenge it easily.

Imo the ability to use SR while also beating most defogers and preventing hazard on its own give Diancie really the edge. I wasnt really sure at the beginning but now I think it should stay in A.
I thought he was saying that because he said a it main niche was to bounce back hazards, which we both know it isn’t diancies niche. This wasn’t the first time “Diancies Job” as a magic bouncer was brought up for a drop too.
Celesteela isn’t a very good switch in because of Diancie is very often paired with Tapu Koko. This partnership also comes with Diancie running nature power, and NP turns into thunderbolt. Tangrowth, Gastrodon, Venu, and Av magearna are easily preassured by spikes, or toxic spikes in the case of tangrowth and Gastrodon, or for magearna, attacks. The only real foolproof counter is chansey, but even then it loses to endeavor.
 

power

uh-oh, the game in trouble
I’m on mobile, so I’ll make this quick.

Unrank Infernape again. It was ranked for its choice scarf set, which held the distinction of outspeeding +2 Mage and killing it. Unfortunately, Mage is no longer anywhere near as big as a threat and ScarfNape is completely useless against the Toxapex that pervades the tier. Additionally, it was ranked at a time when Offensive Landorus-T was far more common and defensive variants did not enjoy the popularity they hold now. It forces impossible building because of its tspike weakness, general inability to do anything, and the fact that it ends up being a scarfer that gets absolutely ruined by water shuriken, which makes the ash gren matchup even worse. It can’t even safely pivot into Mage because many (most, probably) Shift Gear Magearna run Fairium Z, or at the very least Fleur Cannon. As an ending note, it may revenge Volcarona on paper but it’s not hard to simply Psychic it on the switch and kill it.

Get rid of Infernape.
 
I thought he was saying that because he said a it main niche was to bounce back hazards, which we both know it isn’t diancies niche. This wasn’t the first time “Diancies Job” as a magic bouncer was brought up for a drop too.
Celesteela isn’t a very good switch in because of Diancie is very often paired with Tapu Koko. This partnership also comes with Diancie running nature power, and NP turns into thunderbolt. Tangrowth, Gastrodon, Venu, and Av magearna are easily preassured by spikes, or toxic spikes in the case of tangrowth and Gastrodon, or for magearna, attacks. The only real foolproof counter is chansey, but even then it loses to endeavor.
Yeah I did very much word it badly and say it's main niche is blocking hazards, which it isn't, but with hazards being so prevalent in this meta it should be a very useful quality, but most of the time it just doesn't deter any hazard setter. Also I maybe did underrate it's power, but most of its checks are more of a problem than you are making out. Yes they can be pressured with team support but so can any other mon, so that isn't a very good point imo. Yes Diancie is a great tool for luring stuff, but you do have to remember it can't lure all those mons at the same time, so depending on which set you are running, you will have a problem with some of them. In general I find it a bit underwhelming, particularly against offence where it has a lot of trouble getting in to fire off an attack or just gets revenged when it does anyway because it's speed tier is so much worse than it was last gen. Not particularly bothered either way, it just stands out to me as a bit worse than the rest of A rank.

Yeah I did very much word it badly and say it's main niche is blocking hazards, which it isn't, but with hazards being so prevalent in this meta it should be a very useful quality, but most of the time it just doesn't deter any hazard setter. Also I maybe did underrate it's power, but most of its checks are more of a problem than you are making out. Yes they can be pressured with team support but so can any other mon, so that isn't a very good point imo. Yes Diancie is a great tool for luring stuff, but you do have to remember it can't lure all those mons at the same time, so depending on which set you are running, you will have a problem with some of them. In general I find it a bit underwhelming, particularly against offence where it has a lot of trouble getting in to fire off an attack or just gets revenged when it does anyway because it's speed tier is so much worse than it was last gen. Not particularly bothered either way, it just stands out to me as a bit worse than the rest of A rank.
This doesn’t mean it should drop, it just means it isn’t more effective than it already is.
If offense is a problem, then you could run the RP set. That set actually destroys offense, especially with Magnezone support.
Diancies raw power really forces the opponent to play in a predictable way in order to not lose a Pokémon, unlike the rest of A rank, which lets it’s teammates gain momentum. Also, while support can be applied to every mon, you shouldn’t look at this in a vacuum and not consider diancies teammates. Diancies best checks are also much more vulnerable to entry hazards, spikes in particular, than most other checks.
Also, while I don’t think it’s the worst A rank Mon, since you think it is, you must consider, is it still better than the rest of A-? To me, it is.
Keep diancie in A plz.
 
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So uhh, a 2hko on Steela isnt enough lol ur just gna get chunked by Flamethrower, same case with mvenu u just get eq'd, tapu fini calc 2 times but just to say >>tapu fini in 2017<< also kartana that doesnt straight sacred sword lol also staying in on mew to get burned indeed very smart. just to say that these arguements are most definetly flawed..
anyways

def going to agree on a skarmory drop to B- or maybe even C+, when do u ever use this over like steela or ferrothorn lol.. i mean yes, role compression and thats it, outside of that it isnt as good as it once was as stall was the only playstyle it was always usable on, it fits on some balance teams but its rly hard to fit over smthn like steela.
  • Secret Sword has +0 priority while Sucker Punch has +1, same for Flamethrower
  • Tapu Fini is the 8th most common defog user
  • those were just a few examples
  • you'd stay in on Mew so you can kill it, a burned pokemon is more useful than a dead one, and that was just a worst case scenario, usually you just kill it straight-up
  • 0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 182-216 (67.1 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 0- Atk Venusaur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 112-132 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • these calcs were all with Black Glasses, Darkinium would allow you to break through even more
  • since Bisharp's supposed to break through a few things and then die it doesn't matter if you lose nearly but not quite all of your health
  • nice formatting

Skarmory has much more reliable recovery in Roost and the ability to phaze, that's why you'd ever use it over Ferrothorn or Celesteela.

EDIT: to avoid double posting, I nom Skarmory to B since stall is less relevant now. It's about as good as Fini
 

Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
  • Secret Sword has +0 priority while Sucker Punch has +1, same for Flamethrower in case you're still living under a fucking rock, most kartana have sub these days. You're not even using sucker Vs celesteela so idk why you brought that up lol.
  • Tapu Fini is the 8th most common defog user that's not that common, and fini is an unmon anyways.
  • those were just a few examples
  • you'd stay in on Mew so you can kill it, a burned pokemon is more useful than a dead one, and that was just a worst case scenario, usually you just kill it straight-up this is a fucking joke, right? Mew has recovery and many are beginning to carry earth power so 50/50s all the damn way.
  • 0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 182-216 (67.1 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock sharp wins if it has a hard to obtain boost considering how frail it is and most defoggers like mew play around it so it's hard to get one there.
  • 0- Atk Venusaur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 112-132 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO same deal.
  • these calcs were all with Black Glasses, Darkinium would allow you to break through even more while wasting a z move when there's massive competition for the slot.
  • since Bisharp's supposed to break through a few things and then die it doesn't matter if you lose nearly but not quite all of your health
  • nice formatting nice pointless ad hominem
Skarmory has much more reliable recovery in Roost and the ability to phaze, that's why you'd ever use it over Ferrothorn or Celesteela. Why the hell would I ever really need this over celesteela and ferro's better special bulk and utility lmfao, especially when the two can recover a good bit with leech seed.

EDIT: to avoid double posting, I nom Skarmory to B since stall is less relevant now. It's about as good as Fini
I responded in bold, but let me ask you: Are you considering how damn hard it is to fit such a slow, frail and easily played around mon and how outclassed it is by like any other breaker? Consider the negatives before attacking other people.
 

Togekiss to UR: Stall is dead and the few people trying to keep playing the playstyle usually choose Zapdos over Skarm as its defogger. Scarf is bad, offensive NP is worse, and the only niche I could barely consider would be a Fairy defogger with spikes inmunnity, but yeah.


Nidoking from C to C+: I believe this mon hasn't raised or dropped since Dugtrio's ban. Double STAB + Fire Blast and Ice Beam hits all balance cores bar Mantine (which T-bolt destroys) and Gastrodon. It's able to absorb T-Spikes which run rampant right now and fairly checks Tapu Koko and Bulu, OHKOing back. It gets outspeed by a lot of shit but it's still C+ worthy imo (along unmons like Azumarill).
 
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MANNAT

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Hey guys, I just wanted to make a post about cleaning up the C-ranks because there's a lot off stuff that's currently ranked that shouldn't be. In the grand scheme of things, this honestly isn't that important so please hmu on discord if you want to discuss the noms I made instead of posting here because I don't want to spend 5 pages debating about mons that are all bad regardless of their ranking. There's also gonna be a couple mons that are in the upper ranks in this post to, so I'd prefer to discuss those instead.


Unrank - This thing is really bad and never should've been ranked in the first place. It's a slightly faster, weaker overall Tapu Lele with the inability to use items or Z-moves. Zygarde usage dying along with the fact that you're never actually staying in vs stuff like Zardx means that its speed tier isn't even that important anyways. The fact that the best Magearna set atm is AV isn't doing this thing any favors either rofl.


Unrank - Stall is significantly worse than it was before the Dugtrio ban and there's no point in using Togekiss even you're using it to break stall. It's a shitty stallbreaker because stuff like Kartana and Tapu Bulu in the upper ranks forces stall to use Zapdos as is, so it's not like this thing is breaking through stall anytime soon anyways. We shouldn't keep this thing ranked just because it performed well in a tournament game 8 months ago...


Unrank
- In a metagame with multiple Fake Out users like Mega Medicham and Lopunny along with Greninja that can just flinch through your suicide leads, Shuckle's ability to set up Webs anyways is a huge help and frankly outclasses this thing altogether. I get that Spore is cool, but the fact that this thing is significantly more unreliable at performing its role on a playstyle that's already hanging by a thread means it has no reason to be ranked.


Unrank - Excadrill is a way better suicide lead, by having some defensive utility in checking stuff like Tapu Koko while also spinning away opposing hazards. Not to mention that this thing was literally only used on xtra birdspam, which is super dead atm with the dropping in the viability of pretty much every member of the team and with other HOs like Gondra HO and Kanto HO being discovered as better routes to take for building non-cheese HO in the current metagame.


To B- Rank - Obviously Toxapex is our balance overlord atm and has insane usage right now, but everyone knows that and while it's a large reason that Mega Charizard Y isn't very good atm and why it should be ranked 2 ranks below Zardx (aside from the fact that zardx is only 2x weak to rocks after the mevo). However, I'd like to focus on how poor this metagame's hazard removers are. Mega Scizor, arguably the best Defogger in the tier, can't be used with Mega Charizard Y, which is a huge negative for it. On the other hand, solid defensive removers that could potentially get rid of rocks for Mega Charizard Y, such as Mew, Tapu Fini, Zapdos are all dropping off in viability to a point where hazard removal is really bad for the most part right now. Obviously there's solid offensive removers in Kartana and Latios right now, but defensive Defoggers for the most part are suffering right now and make building with Mega Charizard Y a lot more constricting than it was a while ago.


To C+ Rank - Choice Scarf Terrakion is fucking awful right now. The main niche that Choice Scarf Terrak had before was OHKOing Volcarona through Charti Berry, but Charti Rona is fucking dead rn, meaning that shit like Nihilego, Infernape, Keldeo, Gren, etc. are all way better as Scarfers than this thing due to having either better STABs, coverage, or broken hazards. SD sets can be cool paired with other breakers like Mega Charizard X and can put in some work vs balance, but those teams oftentimes pack multiple checks for Terrakion (the one hazard stack balance welliou and a couple other ppl used in snake has both Alakazam and Kartana for example). This thing is just generally a super suboptimal in the current meta and I'm just not a fan of it atm.


To B+ or A- Rank - Hawlucha is a fantastic late game win condition atm that can bust through the vast majority of teams right now. Oftentimes, you can look at snake games and both teams can get 6-0ed by Hawlucha at preview. The rise in defensive and Choice Scarf Lando-T lately over Z move sets means that the thing can be used as setup bait for this thing, which means that a Pokemon that would normally be a solid offensive check to this thing has turned into a liability vs it. Also Zapdos dying off is a huge help to this thing because it's one of the only reliable defensive answers to this thing. If you pair Hawlucha with Spikes stacking, particularly from Ferrothorn, it can just blow through weakened teams at +2. Having this thing in B rank is honestly an insult to something as good as it is. Obviously this thing has drawbacks in terms of being fairly frail and liable to getting revenge killed by priority after some chip damage, but it's still a fantastic choice atm.
 
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  • Secret Sword has +0 priority while Sucker Punch has +1, same for Flamethrower
  • Tapu Fini is the 8th most common defog user
  • those were just a few examples
  • you'd stay in on Mew so you can kill it, a burned pokemon is more useful than a dead one, and that was just a worst case scenario, usually you just kill it straight-up
  • 0 SpA Celesteela Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 182-216 (67.1 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  • 0- Atk Venusaur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 112-132 (41.3 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • these calcs were all with Black Glasses, Darkinium would allow you to break through even more
  • since Bisharp's supposed to break through a few things and then die it doesn't matter if you lose nearly but not quite all of your health
  • nice formatting
Skarmory has much more reliable recovery in Roost and the ability to phaze, that's why you'd ever use it over Ferrothorn or Celesteela.
252+ Atk Dread Plate burned Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 240 HP / 156 Def Mew: 175-207 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Idk how you're planning on killing Mew after being burned. Like you could SD again but it's far easier to deal with a burned Bisharp.

Tapu Fini is the 8th most common defog user
So? 6ish% usage isn't all that much, but the point was that Fini isn't that great. And any Fini player worth their salt will take care before defogging when there's a bisharp in the back, which is relevant when it gets 2HKOed by Moonblast

since Bisharp's supposed to break through a few things and then die it doesn't matter if you lose nearly but not quite all of your health
It does matter when it gets revenged by Koko, Ash-Gren, Lele, and even Mimikyu after its taken some damage.

nice formatting
Please explain how this is relevant to Bisharp's viability.

The simple fact of the matter is that Bisharp is outclassed as a physical breaker in this meta, especially when its sucker punch is rendered redundant by psychic terrain and even water shuriken really (Which is relevant when those users are like the 4th and 5th most used mons). In theory it does a great job breaking with SD, but in practice I don't really see why I'd use this over Mawile or even Medi in a way... unless you're on a webs team and want to make use of defiant. Which is its primary niche in the meta. The falling viability of webs is why it should drop.

The problem with the arguments against recent Bisharp drop noms is that they don't consider that realistically Bisharp is barely ever used outside of webs, and for good reason. If you want to show that it has a niche outside of webs, please provide replays.
 

Unrank - This thing is really bad and never should've been ranked in the first place. It's a slightly faster, weaker overall Tapu Lele with the inability to use items or Z-moves. Zygarde usage dying along with the fact that you're never actually staying in vs stuff like Zardx means that its speed tier isn't even that important anyways. The fact that the best Magearna set atm is AV isn't doing this thing any favors either rofl.
I disagree with a Mega-Gardevoir drop as it still has some (very very) small niches over Lele. Mainly being able to pair it with priority users like Ash-Gren or Zygarde but also to use Will-O Wisp, Healing Wish, Thunder Wave or Encore. Having more power than Lele without Specs (apart from Psychic type moves) or the ability to switch up moves help too. Furthermore it outspeeds Kyurem-Black, Tapu Lele and Zygarde 100% of the time and doesnt care about Substitutes. It's still bad but i dont think it should be dropped out entirely.
 
Shuckle C+ -> C-
Smeargle C -> C- / Unranked

Let's face it, Webs is pretty much deader than disco at this point. From Mega Diancie's prominence to the rise of bulky balances that don't give a damn about the speed drop to the rise of Defoggers like Kartana that pressure Bisharp/Serperior, it's not hard to see why. In Snake, Shuckle was used three times and lost, while Smeargle was nowhere to be seen. Webs just isn't really viable at this point, and the rankings should reflect that.
 
Bisharp already dropped after Sticky Webs fell off, twice and can we stop acting like it's only good on sticky webs teams when hazards are extremely relevant and literally every team has defog. Yes, Sticky Webs dropping hurt it, but the ranking reflect that already.
 
Bisharp already dropped after Sticky Webs fell off, twice and can we stop acting like it's only good on sticky webs teams when hazards are extremely relevant and literally every team has defog. Yes, Sticky Webs dropping hurt it, but the ranking reflect that already.
the fact that it dropped 2 ranks is indeed reflecting it got worse however i and others (BPGNIGGA) feel that B- is still overrating it, C+ would definetly be a more approperiate ranking.
 

Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
Bisharp already dropped after Sticky Webs fell off, twice and can we stop acting like it's only good on sticky webs teams when hazards are extremely relevant and literally every team has defog. Yes, Sticky Webs dropping hurt it, but the ranking reflect that already.
Lmfao
Have you ever actually seen a good team with sharp in a while? Outside of webs - which is legit dead, I fully support smeargle to UR and shuckle down - it has almost never been used in high level play. It's a slow, frail, easily outplayed and outclassed breaker, and putting it in B- with actually useful mons is definitely not accurate.

I swear, the vast majority of arguments for sharp staying are all just fucking theorymonning. No one has come up with replays or anything. I get it's your little fan favourite and shit but it is frankly just garbage regardless lmfao.

Also I'm going after the next person that calls me Bpgnigga. Stop calling me that please.
 
Lmfao
Have you ever actually seen a good team with sharp in a while? Outside of webs - which is legit dead, I fully support smeargle to UR and shuckle down - it has almost never been used in high level play. It's a slow, frail, easily outplayed and outclassed breaker, and putting it in B- with actually useful mons is definitely not accurate.

I swear, the vast majority of arguments for sharp staying are all just fucking theorymonning. No one has come up with replays or anything. I get it's your little fan favourite and shit but it is frankly just garbage regardless lmfao.

Also I'm going after the next person that calls me Bpgnigga. Stop calling me that please.
Fan favorite? Doesn't matter at all and no. Theorymonning? Cmon now. Don't get me wrong, I agreed with recent drop, but I think it's fine where it is. You've made the nomination several times which has had the exact same reasoning each time, being that Sticky Webs teams are a thing of the past. It dropped last update to reflect it, now you're saying the exact same again for a further drop. How is that more than replays or anything? You're the one arguing for a change without showing that things have changed. Slow and frail is really nothing new, other than slow being a bigger issue on non-webs teams, but again, that was reflected already.

the fact that it dropped 2 ranks is indeed reflecting it got worse however i and others (BPGNIGGA) feel that B- is still overrating it, C+ would definetly be a more approperiate ranking.
This is much more fair considering there's nothing new since the last drop.
 

Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
Fan favorite? Doesn't matter at all and no. Theorymonning? Cmon now. Don't get me wrong, I agreed with recent drop, but I think it's fine where it is. You've made the nomination several times which has had the exact same reasoning each time, being that Sticky Webs teams are a thing of the past. It dropped last update to reflect it, now you're saying the exact same again for a further drop. How is that more than replays or anything? You're the one arguing for a change without showing that things have changed. Slow and frail is really nothing new, other than slow being a bigger issue on non-webs teams, but again, that was reflected already.



This is much more fair considering there's nothing new since the last drop.
As ThiccTornadus already said, it's just that it's overrated in B- and what everyone - including me, read my original post to drop sharp - is trying to say is that it honestly should have dropped to C+ last update. The reason is because it literally fits nowhere outside of webs and most high level play has shown that. Things don't have to change for it to be overrated in where it is.
And yes, you are theorymonning by saying that it could fit on many teams because of Defog, alongside the last guy that tried to defend Sharp. That's theorymonning because in practice it just doesn't, being a slow, frail and easily outplayed wallbreaker that is outclassed by most other ones. It has a niche in Defiant but that's not worth B-.
 
jesus christ, why is everyone trying so hard to bash each other? it's honestly cringy and super unnecessary when we can just debate things like sensible people instead of attacking people just because they have a differing opinion. the nitpicking is also really petty and does literally nothing to progress the conversation. the last few pages have been nothing but cancer at its finest.

gosh, at the end of the day, it's up to the ranking team if something as irrelevant as bisharp (and you guys are getting so worked up over it) is going to drop again. how about we discuss more relevant mons' like mega lopunny or mega latias instead of getting pissy about something like bisharp?
 

power

uh-oh, the game in trouble
Lmfao
Have you ever actually seen a good team with sharp in a while? Outside of webs - which is legit dead, I fully support smeargle to UR and shuckle down - it has almost never been used in high level play. It's a slow, frail, easily outplayed and outclassed breaker, and putting it in B- with actually useful mons is definitely not accurate.

I swear, the vast majority of arguments for sharp staying are all just fucking theorymonning. No one has come up with replays or anything. I get it's your little fan favourite and shit but it is frankly just garbage regardless lmfao.

Also I'm going after the next person that calls me Bpgnigga. Stop calling me that please.

It’s really unfortunate how bad the arguments against dropping Bisharp have been so far in this thread, because Bisharp absolutely should not be dropped and my conversations with both current members of VR and retired members indicate Bisharp will probably not be dropping.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-324891

Darkinium Bisharp is an absolutely terrifying mon in the right hands with the capability to easily tear apart common balance cores such as Toxapex + Celesteela, Venusaur + Celesteela, Toxapex + Ferrothorn, etc. add on the fact that it also rips Clefable and Lando-T a new one, takes insane advantage of Latis, blows through Tyranitar, and youve got something way better than all the garbage in C Ranks. Heatran has to outplay Suckers bc it no longer runs Sub, another boon for Bisharp.

What makes Bisharp so absolutely terrifying is the simple fact that none of the stuff that revenge kills it ever wants to switch in, making it difficult to deny it a kill.

I may have been overhyping this mon slightly, but it already is in B-, and just because it’s underexplored doesn’t mean it’s bad.

Please don’t drop Bisharp.
 

MANNAT

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Also I'm going after the next person that calls me Bpgnigga. Stop calling me that please.
Bisharp isn't as bad as everyone says it is. I get that it mainly fits onto Webs HO for the most part, but it can work on some other builds like Mega Medicham hazard stack, as shown in the replay above posted by Sedertz. Darkium Z Bisharp just blows through Hippowdon and paves the way for the rest of the team to win the game and its threat as a breaker can be applied to other matchups

Part of the reason why a lot of people don't like this mon is that it's not used that much in tournaments, but I don't think that should necesarily correlate to a lack in viability. Webs has been bad for a good bit now, so it isn't exactly a recent metagame shift that it's gone down

Great teams have been built around Bisharp, similar to the Mega Medicham hazard stack mentioned above.

Notions that Bisharp is bad arise out of a misconception of what Bisharp does. Bisharp is a wallbreaker that is intended to pave the way for teammates to win games, not as a setup sweeper that wins games by itself as many people are indicating. It's similar to Zardx in the vein that a lot of people were thinking about using it as a sweeper when in reality it's just a solid wallbreaker.

I think that Bisharp is actually a pretty solid anti-meta mon that can be used on some builds, but people are just too lazy to stray away from the stuff that's been working in the current meta because they don't wanna risk losing with new mons.

God, I don't get why people in this thread are so adamant (heh) on hating on Bisharp when it's not even comparable to half the dogshit in C+ as is.

Goons that are paired with Bisharp can make for super threatening teams that can threaten to overwhelm the opposing squad and get wins at team preview, which is starkly different from what the rest of this thread has been echoing.

All in all, a Pokemon that is relatively unexplored isn't necessarily bad, in the fashion that Bisharp is.Fuck bpgnigga tbh
 
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Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
I know that Mega Medicham has already been discussed for a potential rise in the past couple of weeks, but I really do think it's solid enough for a rise to A- right now. It's an incredible breaker against the balance teams that plague the current metagame, crushing defensive cores with relative ease, and only having a very select amount of mons that can potentially check it. Mega Sableye stalls have been falling off like a rock recently which helps it as that's one of the matchups that M-Medi doesn't have a very easy time with without a lot of support. While I do get that its not quite fast enough to have a super great offense matchup, Mega Medicham still has pretty strong priority that can be pretty effective in picking off frail mons like Ash-Greninja after some chip, and if you can get Mega Medicham in on a pivot like AV Magearna, it's pretty much guaranteed a kill against the opposing offense team. Overall, I think Mega Medicham is definitely above the level of it's B+ due to it's amazing breaking abilities that a lot of teams just arent prepared for as well as being able to pressure offense with it's strong priority (and the drop of stall benefitting it), and it's just a generally strong Pokémon in the current meta.

I've actually been using Bisharp a bit lately on a couple of offense teams and I gotta say, it's not that bad at all LOL. SD sets with Z-Sucker Punch are fucking vicious against fat cores like CelePex and aren't deadweight against stall either. As said above, Sharp takes advantage of a lot of common mons right now, like the Latis, TTar, even making Lando-T a shaking switch-in due to Defiant raising it's Attack as Lando-T switches in. While Webs is pretty dookie right now, I find that Bisharp fits best on hazard stacking teams that can utilize it's amazing wallbreaking capabilities to pave the way for teammates to sweep, as well as pressuring Defoggers due to Defiant. It's a bit of a niche choice, yes, but it's undoubtedly deadly when used correctly, especially with all the fatty cores run in today's metagame. I find dropping Bisharp to be completely ludicrous and it just shows that the people nomming this thing to drop just aren't using it correctly (like seriously Webs is a meme and you are for using it). Bisharp should definitely stay in B- for it's unique wallbreaking power and usefulness on hazard stacking teams.
 
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Absolutely agree with mega medicham to A-. In fact I would not be surprised if it were nominated to be A. Here's the metagame shifts that I think justify this raise.

The Decline of Mew.

  • About a month or two ago when PhysDef mew was on so many teams, it was seriously difficult to use mega medicham. Since that point, there have been two significant changes surrounding mew. The first is that it has simply dropped in usage a considerable amount. As always, the metagame adapts and mons like Ash Gren, Fairium-Z Mag, Bug Buzz Volcarona, Darkinium-Z Kartana, and plenty more began to spring up. Plus, other defoggers began to see more usage so the competition was pretty high from stuff like Mantine, Scarf Lati, Mega Sciz, Zapdos, Etc. So that's my long-winded way of saying: Mew is less common now.
  • A second adaptation we've made is the really cool Koko + Medi core. This makes thunder punch do obscene amounts of damage. Most mews are running speedier sets, outspeeding stuff like jolly zygarde. Medicham abuses this because this mew does not run enough speed to outspeed you, but it is still sacrificing that extra bulk for the speed. This less-bulky mew does get 2HKO'd most of the time from T-punch after rocks (Which it will usually come in on, considering it's the defogger of the team)
    252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 240 HP / 156 Def Mew in Electric Terrain: 175-207 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 68.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Tapu Koko Core

  • I cannot stress the synergy between these two. Think of the most common koko switch-ins. Ferrothorn, AV Magearna, SpDef Tran, Chansey, AV Magnezone, Tangrowth, Mega Venusaur, etc. Koko Volt switches (Or U-turns) on every single one of these threats, and Mega medicham can come in and pick up a kill for free.
  • Another thing Medicham benefits from koko is electric-terrain boosted T-punches which I mentioned earlier. Mew is not the only thing it can muscle past. Other mons include Mega-Sableye (Not that stall exists anymore lol), Celesteela (Removes the would-be 50/50s with protect as well as simply doing more damage than HJK), Clefable, and a few more mons that medi can beat with thunder punch like mantine and fini.
Existence of CelePex

  • Medicham, especially when paired with Koko, absolutely disassembles this core. We talk about how important it is for a breaker to be able to bust past this core, and none do it better than Mega Medicham.
  • In fact, bulky teams as a whole really are common nowadays. Slower fat teams in general are everywhere, and with CelePex at the core, medicham can bust past them easily. Other aforementioned mons that have been seeing more play include Mega-Venu and Mantine among others that I won't bore you guys in repeating.
Anyways, needless to say I think Mega Medi is more than deserving of A- at the very least. It absolutely is better than the likes of skarm or weavile, and is on par (If not better than) many A- mons like zapdos, Mega Sab, Pelipper, and Mega Lop.
 
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