Resource SM OU Sets Viability Rankings

Status
Not open for further replies.

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Must've been a relic. I was focused on finishing everything. :|

Mamo is still currently B- in the Viability Thread, though I'm rather certain it's going up. Until then placed its rank in B-.
 
Is double dance Landorus really deserving of an S rank? It doesn't seem to me to be tier defining in a way the defensive set or scarfed lele are, and it seems to me to not be defensively strong enough to consistently set up, and even when it can set up, it requires prediction (or very precise opposition) to be able to work consistently.

It's not that double dance is a bad set, but it seems to me more an A or A+ than an S quality set.
 
Tapu Bulu: Assault Vest

I think the assault vest for Tapu Bulu deserves to be at least mentioned on this list as an A- or B+ set.

With the assault vest, Bulu gets a very good 70/115/and essentially 157 bulk with a few (80) SpD evs. Bulu's typing gives it resists to some of the most common offensive types such as Electric, Water, Dark, Fighting, basically a 4x ground resist (besides like thousand arrows the only other relevant physical ground move), and a complete immunity to Dragon.

Its lack of reliable recovery is mitigated by horn leech + grassy terrain recovery and it avoids being very passive by its powerful 130 base attack stat on top of a free choice band to its grass moves and natures madness which halves the health of pokemon that would normally be able to switch in very easily (notably skarmory, celesteela, and heatran).

Essentially, tapu bulu aims to be able to support its team by being a reliable switch in for many powerful offensive type attacks and dealing big damage to ensure an easier time cleaning up for say, a late game cleaner.

Tapu Bulu @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 180 Atk / 80 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Horn Leech
- Wood Hammer
- Nature's Madness
- Rock Slide/Stone Edge/Zen Headbutt/Mega Horn/Superpower/Smart Strike
.
 
Tapu Bulu: Assault Vest
I think the assault vest for Tapu Bulu deserves to be at least mentioned on this list as an A- or B+ set.

With the assault vest, Bulu gets a very good 70/115/and essentially 157 bulk with a few (80) SpD evs. Bulu's typing gives it resists to some of the most common offensive types such as Electric, Water, Dark, Fighting, basically a 4x ground resist (besides like thousand arrows the only other relevant physical ground move), and a complete immunity to Dragon.

Its lack of reliable recovery is mitigated by horn leech + grassy terrain recovery and it avoids being very passive by its powerful 130 base attack stat on top of a free choice band to its grass moves and natures madness which halves the health of pokemon that would normally be able to switch in very easily (notably skarmory, celesteela, and heatran).

Essentially, tapu bulu aims to be able to support its team by being a reliable switch in for many powerful offensive type attacks and dealing big damage to ensure an easier time cleaning up for say, a late game cleaner.

Tapu Bulu @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 180 Atk / 80 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Horn Leech
- Wood Hammer
- Nature's Madness
- Rock Slide/Stone Edge/Zen Headbutt/Mega Horn/Superpower/Smart Strike
.
While this isn't typically a place to post sets, why run Wood Hammer with Assault vest?

But the main question is who does assault vest Bulu beat that is relevant? Its decent Special Defence with an assault vest is nice, but which special attackers would this set have more utility against than the standard Bulu sets? Is it as good as other AV users? If not, what niche does it have over these users, and other special walls?
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I bumped Z Happy Hour Greninja to B+. Im also thinking on dropping Z Happy Hour Jirachi to B or B- as well.

I'm consulting with Gary and bludz on Double Dance. Double Dance functions roughly the same as SD Z Move and Landorus-T naturally forces switches and, in some circumstances, can reach the Rock Polish as well. It's a pretty hard mon to stop unless you're packing a lot of bulk like a Stall team, but if that's the case you're probably just using Swords Dance anyway.

RE: AV Bulu. I havent seen nor heard the set, and I dont think it got any use in SPL. If you want the set to be ranked I will need replays as evidence as to why it should be added.
 
It'd actually be 166~167 bulk. AV multiplies the Pokémon's actual stat by 1.5x, not their base stat.
If I calculated by base stat it would be base 142 special defense. If I have 80 special defensive evs without a spD boosting nature, bulu reaches 246 special defense. When multiplied by 1.5x you get 369 special defense. which is the equivalent of base 157 spD with 80 evs.
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Sets VR team decided to remove Z Happy Hour Greninja. That will happen later today or tomorrow.

Furthermore:

- Choice Scarf Gengar will be placed over Offensive Gengar.
- Double Dance will be the second set for Landorus-T, though everything but Scarf will remain S. Defensive will remain at the top for now.
- Latios will be re-arranged: more emphasis on All-Out Attacker that has been popularized in SPL with Specs still trailing shortly behind.
 
Why is there an Agility M-Metagross set although there isn't one in the analysis at all? Sorry if a set doesn't need to be included in the analysis.
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
For the record some highly usable OO sets are usually included because they do have a place on rather niche or conditional teams (Agility Mega Metagross is one example, another is Defog Mega Scizor).
 
  • Like
Reactions: p2

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Heatran kind of traveled in the wrong direction. Destination was not clear enough for it. I moved it back to A (Sorry about that!)

I also knocked down Assault Vest to B+ for Tornadus-T. Offensive Tornadus-T isn't too bad; however, Assault Vest has a much more limited niche and has a hard time justifying its place in the meta. It doesn't help that one of its primary targets, Keldeo, is a bit rarer and in its place is Greninja, which are faster.

EDIT: Made changes reflected in this post. I have also added Defog Mega Scizor to B- since it is a set that is used on the occasion for bulkier teams.

Please welcome our newcomers Quagsire, Bronzong, Blissey, and Pyukumuku to the VR Set rankings.
 
Last edited:
Is double dance Landorus really deserving of an S rank? It doesn't seem to me to be tier defining in a way the defensive set or scarfed lele are, and it seems to me to not be defensively strong enough to consistently set up, and even when it can set up, it requires prediction (or very precise opposition) to be able to work consistently.

It's not that double dance is a bad set, but it seems to me more an A or A+ than an S quality set.
It's really good and does get decent opportunities to set up, though you do have to be smart about bringing it in. One Rock Polish with SR support can beat a good number of offensive teams, and Magnezone support to beat Celesteela/non-Shed Shell Skarmory can break balanced/stall teams pretty well. It's not as splashable as the defensive set, but when used properly it's a really versatile and dangerous sweeper, one of the best in the tier with its ability to run either Continental Crush or Supersonic Skystrike to break whatever you need to. It's not quite as reliable as the other S tier sets in general but is better than most A+ sets and is definitely a meta staple.
 
Ice there a resource where I can see ev spreads on certain sets outside of the analyses? I want to know that AOA Protean ninja spread, but can find it there and I don't think he has a thread.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Ice there a resource where I can see ev spreads on certain sets outside of the analyses? I want to know that AOA Protean ninja spread, but can find it there and I don't think he has a thread.
The standard spread for AoA Protean Gren is usually just max SpA, max Speed, and Naive nature. You don't need Attack investment because the only physical move you will be using on it is Gunk Shot most of the time unless you are using Spikes with Low Kick, and its most relevant target Tapu Fini takes enough from it anyway. And no, there isn't a particular place to find EV spreads outside of the analysis unless you look at people's teams, but Greninja's analysis just hasn't been uploaded yet. It's here.
 
The standard spread for AoA Protean Gren is usually just max SpA, max Speed, and Naive nature. You don't need Attack investment because the only physical move you will be using on it is Gunk Shot most of the time unless you are using Spikes with Low Kick, and its most relevant target Tapu Fini takes enough from it anyway. And no, there isn't a particular place to find EV spreads outside of the analysis unless you look at people's teams, but Greninja's analysis just hasn't been uploaded yet. It's here.
Thanks man I appreciate it. I was using an old oras set and it didn't feel right because I would sometimes not ohko metagross with dark pulse, I figured he would be accounted for lol.
 

Ash Borer

I've heard they're short of room in hell
Gonna chime in to say that I think TR magearna is as good as if not better than Shift Gear Magearna.

1) It has better bulk and power, SG requires you to run 252 Speed and a Timid nature. TR runs 252 HP and a Quiet nature.
2) It does not get outsped by any choice scarf users
3) It can support slow teammates, though this is rare it can come into play
4) Trick Room is an emergency stop to sweepers that may attempt to set up on Magearna (unevolved Charizard and Volcarona are pretty good at this). TR can even set up on things that can not OHKO Magearna while at +1, like Mega Gyarados. SG can not do these things.

All of these advantages for the disadvantage of having to rely on Trick Room, which expires in 5 turns, and therefore can be predicted around. While this is a problem, I have really yet to see it come into play while using the set. Twinkle Tackle has 200 BP right off the bat, so unless the opponent has a very healthy Fairy-type resist, you can't switch into it, and then Soul Heart ensures that the following turns are just as painful.

Honestly, I've used both sets and I just can't find a compelling reason to run Shift Gear over TR. The only real scenario I could see where the opponent plays around TR is if they say, switch their Heatran into Trick Room, forcing you to Focus Blast, then predicting this they go to a fighting resist, and again they predict the Twinkle Tackle and go back into Heatran. These kinds of scenarios while possible would require the opponent to execute a very low percentage play, and even they would still have a few turns of Trick Room to fight through, while tanking those turns of entry hazards, and these resisted hits, which could be fatal in such a lategame scenario.
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Updated with the VR as well as some house cleaning:

- Celesteela's Autotomize set is now A rank, up from A-.
- Pheromosa's Sets have been re-arranged to reflect the current metagame adaptations. Below are the sets:
Choice Specs: A+
All-Out Attacker: A+
Quiver Dance: A+
Choice Scarf: A

It should come as no surprise that Choice Specs has started to pull ahead over All-Out Attacker, though AOA has also found different ways to adapt with using Bug Buzz, potentially Focus Blast, and Rapid Spin. We feel that QD is a solid set, but it does require a little more support behind it to really get rolling.

- From earlier, but Latios also got a small revamp on its sets:
All Out Attacker: B+
Choice Specs: B
Defog / Life Orb: B
Choice Scarf: B-

I think that's it, but I'll respond to this concern:
Gonna chime in to say that I think TR magearna is as good as if not better than Shift Gear Magearna.

1) It has better bulk and power, SG requires you to run 252 Speed and a Timid nature. TR runs 252 HP and a Quiet nature.
2) It does not get outsped by any choice scarf users
3) It can support slow teammates, though this is rare it can come into play
4) Trick Room is an emergency stop to sweepers that may attempt to set up on Magearna (unevolved Charizard and Volcarona are pretty good at this). TR can even set up on things that can not OHKO Magearna while at +1, like Mega Gyarados. SG can not do these things.

All of these advantages for the disadvantage of having to rely on Trick Room, which expires in 5 turns, and therefore can be predicted around. While this is a problem, I have really yet to see it come into play while using the set. Twinkle Tackle has 200 BP right off the bat, so unless the opponent has a very healthy Fairy-type resist, you can't switch into it, and then Soul Heart ensures that the following turns are just as painful.

Honestly, I've used both sets and I just can't find a compelling reason to run Shift Gear over TR. The only real scenario I could see where the opponent plays around TR is if they say, switch their Heatran into Trick Room, forcing you to Focus Blast, then predicting this they go to a fighting resist, and again they predict the Twinkle Tackle and go back into Heatran. These kinds of scenarios while possible would require the opponent to execute a very low percentage play, and even they would still have a few turns of Trick Room to fight through, while tanking those turns of entry hazards, and these resisted hits, which could be fatal in such a lategame scenario.
For the record, I think that Trick Room is potentially better than Choice Specs. I haven't sat down and ever said in a team "man I want Choice Specs on my Magearna today" ever. It's usually Shift Gear or Assault Vest. I'll discuss with Gary and bludz on that.

Shift Gear has a lot more consistency than Trick Room. Trick Room's biggest issue is that it entails a specific playstyle (full Trick Room offense) or using it lategame to clean up (average team with TR Mag). The thing is Shift Gear fits a lot better into teams without putting the rest of the team at a disadvantage if Trick Room is, for any reason, still on the field.

I think for the record it's probably comparable in a way that they're both lategame sweepers usually, though Shift Gear Magearna can do some work midgame to teams that aren't really prepped for it either. I think Trick Room could go under Assault Vest and Shift Gear, as an example, as this would move it above Choice Specs (and thus potentially bump up its grade).

bludz Gary comments?
 
sry for the question, but is mew + mewium z worth being somewhere? i don't know to much about the viability of the set, but i've faced a lot of this nowdays and it was even the theme of the teambuilding compedium
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
sry for the question, but is mew + mewium z worth being somewhere? i don't know to much about the viability of the set, but i've faced a lot of this nowdays and it was even the theme of the teambuilding compedium
Definitely. We can put it below Specially Defensive for now and leave the discussion open to where it can go if needed.

EDIT: Also re-arranged Terrakion. Scarf > Rock Z > CB.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top