Resource RU Viability Rankings Thread

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aurora

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Nominating Malamar for B+. RU losing Durant, which was a hard stop to Malamar, increased its viability. Malamar is now a much better win condition, and its ability to crush the vanilla defensive core of Mega Steelix and Alomomola makes it a nightmare for balance teams to face. Non-STAB Bug-type attacks aren't as potent against Malamar, especially after it's amassed a few Superpower boosts. Malamar can also act as a status absorber thanks to Rest and Sleep Talk being integral moves to its success. While it provides very little defensive utility to a team as far as resistances go, its few weaknesses mean that it's difficult to break through.

Also nominating Golbat for a rise to C+ or even to B- for its ability to destroy the tier's best sweeper, Virizion, with ease. It also comes with a fair amount of utility, as it can Defog, act as either specially or physically defensive thanks to its neat defensive typing, and act as a pivot for offensive teams with U-turn or annoy bulkier teams with Super Fang. It's an unfortunate fact that it cannot use both U-turn and Super Fang, but I still feel like Golbat is underrated in this metagame.
 
Nominating Malamar for B+. RU losing Durant, which was a hard stop to Malamar, increased its viability. Malamar is now a much better win condition, and its ability to crush the vanilla defensive core of Mega Steelix and Alomomola makes it a nightmare for balance teams to face. Non-STAB Bug-type attacks aren't as potent against Malamar, especially after it's amassed a few Superpower boosts. Malamar can also act as a status absorber thanks to Rest and Sleep Talk being integral moves to its success. While it provides very little defensive utility to a team as far as resistances go, its few weaknesses mean that it's difficult to break through.

Also nominating Golbat for a rise to C+ or even to B- for its ability to destroy the tier's best sweeper, Virizion, with ease. It also comes with a fair amount of utility, as it can Defog, act as either specially or physically defensive thanks to its neat defensive typing, and act as a pivot for offensive teams with U-turn or annoy bulkier teams with Super Fang. It's an unfortunate fact that it cannot use both U-turn and Super Fang, but I still feel like Golbat is underrated in this metagame.
If Virizion runs Zen Headbutt/Stone Edge it gets dicey, and if they double switch with rocks up Golbat is shakier. Just my thoughts.
 

EonX

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Malamar: I'm with this one. Considering it wails on the most common core in the tier right now (Mega Steelix, Alomomola, Venusaur) Malamar is a very solid choice. Mega Steelix makes a lot of its best checks and counters pretty garbage and it can use most passive Pokemon in the tier as setup fodder, especially if they lack super effective moves. It even has RestTalk to absorb status for the team and keep on going with its sweep. Once it's up to about +2 or +3 defense, it's very hard to break due to the special bulk investment it has most of the time. U-turn users aren't all that common outside of Flygon and there's now no fast physical Bug-type to take advantage of it before it gets too many boosts. It's a very good mon that definitely deserves to rise to B+ rank.

Golbat: I can get behind a rise to C+ rank, but definitely not B-. It is a sturdy Venusaur switch-in that doesn't need any special bulk investment to check it, meaning it can still check Fighting-types pretty well. However, it isn't good with Defog due to having no passive recovery and being weak to Rocks. What's more is that it usually wants Super Fang to cut into fat mons like Mega Steelix that it can't otherwise touch. It's a shaky Virizion counter at best considering +2 Stone Edge and Zen Headbutt does a fuckton. But hey, at least it has a chance vs. Virizion unlike a bevy of defensive mons in the tier. It's better now than it was in previous metas, but it still has very clear issues and still lets in a lot of dangerous Pokemon. That, I think, should keep it in the C ranks, but it's definitely better than C rank mons, so C+ rank is good imo.
 
yeah, id be down w/both honestly. malamars bangs, was tryna get it to work a bunch even in ant meta b.c it does a lot currently (scald absorb, knock platform, melo check, win condition in one is rad). I would go on to argue that, now more than ever, teams can afford to run defensive backbones w/both a steel and a rock, which by extension can allow careful malamar to be more plausible (isn't as incentivized to outpace guys like explouds) and ups its value imo. not like having malamar be ur 'fast' dude is bad now, but careful does a lot for ya.

as for golbat, i also think b- is fair. there's a negative stigma surrounding it and i get that, but it does some really cool stuff that is pretty unique to it. the issues it has soloing sr mons are still there, that isn't changing (super fangs its best shot, and even then having somethin to knock lefties or poison is kinda key in making a lasting mark there), but i think it's hard to deny its significant and fairly exclusive defensive functions here. don't feel that defog is an absolute in maintaining its niche either, bc it'll keep checking the same dudes w/o the ability to drop their evasion. it's gotta plenty of decent tools to play off (tox, super fang, and taunt are stuff you'd be wanting to slot on defog sets that you can here!), and it still synergizes w/ur top, toise, gonner. also in the vein of fast-ish dudes on bulkier teams, jolly 176 bat is a pretty passable set too. i get that the prospect of making ur virizion check a fair sight less of one is kinda a daunting prospect, but there are a ton of 80 speed tier beaters that u can get a ton of value outta outpacing (cham venu hoopa being the big ones). jus be a little more open-minded about bat, i guarantee its not as bad as dude on ladder that doesn't know what sr is and has av on maybe 5 too many mons led u to believe
 
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Wandering Wobbuffet

formerly Based Honker
I want to know how people feel about this one
A- to A
The meta right now is extremely nice to rhyperior's band set despite the fact that mola is everywhere. It's CB set punishes teams that use mola as a rock/ground "resist" being powerful enough to 2HKO it thus breaking through the coveted mola+lix core. It also has coverage to bop other mons like tangrowth with a banded megahorn doing ridiculous amounts of damage to them. Paired with spikes it makes it even harder to switchin to this beast. I can understand people who think A- is fair enough and I don't necessarily disagree but with durant leaving and malamar on the rise (take a banded megahorn to the face you retarded squid) I feel as this thing is as threatening as ever before.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
another Pokemon i'm currently using on stall actually

it's semi-underwhelming but it is pretty fat, can take on some important stuff, and most importantly is almost impossible to outright wall, meaning you can tear apart even the toughest stall (never mind balance cores) if you can keep the predicts game on point. my preferred adjective is 'rock solid' but in this case it might be a bit too on the nose. So yeah, rhyperior for A, who with it?

edit:

i don't like the idea of talking about counter prevalence but malamar is one of those threats that generally requires specific preparation and slips under a lot of people's radar (above post nonwithstanding). also its counters are kind of garbage.
 
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Take Azelfie

More flags more fun

B ---> A-
After playing about 3/4 quarters of a tournament run with Malamar (Double Elimination and placing second.) Malamar is the most underrated threat in RU ATM. I know that is a huge statement to say and I will defend my word right here. First of all Malamar punishes a large amount of the meta from simply clicking Superpower which is a great move in its own right. This effect becomes very overwhelming in only 1 to 2 turns. It can abuse "hax" from random drops only boosting its stats as well. But I think there is one thing that really gives Malamar a worthy position in A-, that sole reason is the obscurity of its checks and counters. In ladder play you will notice a trend of good NU Pokemon being able to work more efficiently than RU Pokemon against certain teams. The reason for this is that one the ladder you should be prepping for more common threats like Tyrantrum and Virizion instead of Vivillon or Samurott because you will more likely be able to come across them when trying to ladder up. This is fine since a lot of these Pokemon are often checked by common RU Pokemon as well. An example being that Snow is often checked by your answer to Mega Glalie. But the problem with Malamar is that its answers are pretty small leaving a lot of teams Malamar weak. Not to mention it's so called "Checks and Counters" are either left to be beat by Malamar after 1 or 2 boost or can be easily countered by a team member (Mega Steelix being a notable example destroying fairies and being able to tackle Jolteon.) Now in tournament it can stand pretty well to. First of all, lures are something often found on teams do to there being a weakness to certain threats (for example Dugtrio could run Aerial Ace to 'lure' Virizion who might attempt to set-up on it) Although common lures don't really effect Malamar at all. Dazzling Gleam + Colbur is the most dangerous one to Malamar but that doens't stop it in most cases. People also tend to not bring it as they don't want to gives up a free moveslot for something that the opponent might bring. Sure if your opponent has a record trailing them full of Malamar usage it wouldn't hurt to add it but in most cases it isn't worth it. Not to mention that Malamar is a very easy to support Pokemon that can be accomplished in about two partners. On my last note, it also happens to break down one of the most common fat balance cores (Venu + MLix + Mola) which is really nice for teams.

But I would also like to say that if Malamar ever made it to RU or some metagame trend shifts it away, I can see it going down since more counters and lures will become available due to Malamar's popularity but as if right now it is too much of an uchecked threat which is why I think it deserves A-.
 

freezai

Live for the Applause
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Just to tack onto the Malamar Hype train, what really makes Malamar stand out is:
  • -There are very few relevant bug types in the tier. You have basically Accelgor and Escavalier, accelgor being as frail as used tissue paper and pretty much relegated to revenge killing duties, and escavalier which is an extremely soft check because escavalier can only switch in 1 time with rocks before losing to it the next time around.
  • -The second thing is that the most common and easiest way to check Malamar is by using a fairy type like Togetic for example. However, all fairies in the tier give free switches to the tier's most relevant mon: Mega Steelix. A simple core of Malamar+Steelix causes a huge liability for opposing teams as Malamar forces fairies in which in turn gives free turns for Mega-Steelix.
  • It breaks standard Mola+Lix cores as well as being a check all, a scald absorber,etc People have already have mentioned its utility earlier so I won't repeat this point.

As of now I think Malamar could move up to B+ rank (I know it just moved up to B, but still.) We'll see how it goes but I don't think even going to A- in the future would be unreasonable considering its utiltiy and ability to break common cores.
 

EonX

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I've already talked about this one, but I don't feel as tho Malamar should be A- quite yet. B+ is good for it though. Definitely better than the rest of the B rank mons and on par (in terms of viability) with multiple B+ mons (Amoonguss, Exploud, and Scrafty in particular)

Qwilfish: Missed this one earlier, but it could probably do with a drop to B rank. With Venusaur and Virizion being as common as they are, it's very difficult to use a Poison-type neutral to Grass. It still has some neat perks with Taunt, T-Wave, and Spikes, but it's just not a kind metagame to Qwilfish. Hazards are pretty easy to get rid of (hell, it has to switch out of Flygon and it loses to Blastoise 1v1) teams generally appreciate a different bulky Water (namely Alomomola, Slowking, and Blastoise) and Venusaur + Virizion being so common in the tier just makes life even harder for Qwilfish. Special attackers in general are also more common due to RU's lack of special walls, and this doesn't help Qwilfish any. So, good mon in a bad meta for it.

Samurott: I want to talk about this one for a minute. Samurott suffers from very similar issues that Qwilfish has in that it hates Venusaur and Virizion being so common. The once great SD set now has quite a difficult time setting up a sweep due to Venusaur (Virizion was bad enough) and the special attacker set is greatly held back by its Speed tier, which again, falls behind Venusaur. Simply put, Samurott's Speed tier is much more exploitable with Venusaur in the tier right now and I'm not really sure it's B rank worthy anymore. There's also the fact that most teams want their Water-types to take hits and support the team, which is something Samurott can't do. Base 70 Speed just isn't what it was before Venusaur came to the tier and most teams prefer to have Water-types that can tank hits and support their team these days. I think that should make Samurott drop to B- rank. It has a hard time against many of the top Pokemon in the tier and most teams prefer Pokemon of Samurott's typing to be able to tank hits throughout a match rather than provide offensive firepower.
 

Natan

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Rotom-Mow B+ to A- I'm not the best RU player to reply here, but Rotom-C is the powerful and faster Special Grass type that can deal many damage to Flying types (Virizion Special can't unless it get 2x with HP Ice and takes OHKO to Fletchinder's Acrobatics), with many Water types in tier, Rotom-C is a good revenge killer, even not so high, its speed tier is enough to outspeed any Water type (and none Water type in RU runs Choice Scarf). This with Specs have awesome STABs, Leaf Storm can deal many damage even to some resists with low SpD (like Offensive Tangrowth), Volt Switch can give momentum, Thunderbolt a good damage and Trick can just switch its item destroying things like stall. It can run HP Fire, with a modest nature 2HKOing Tangrowth AV, Escavalier AV, Mega Steelix and has almost 100% chance from 2HKOing standard Amoonguss with Stealth Rocks in field. Its Scarf set is good to revenge kill many things and get momentum. Unfortunately, Rotom-C stays in trouble many times with Alomomola teams. Alomomola can scout with Protect, then switch into an Electric immunity, if Tricks, a Mega or a pokémon that enjoys choice itens, but after Electric immunities from the team stay fainted, Rotom-C can easily be a threat to any team. Another problem is the -2 that Leaf Storm inflicts, giving much times some free turns, but its damage is still many high with this.

Don't forgot running a Modest nature Rotom-C isn't able to outspeed some relevant things that a Timid Rotom-C does (Braviary Non-Scarf, Gallade, Medicham non-scarf, Venusaur)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-C Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Mega Steelix: 180-212 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-C Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 214-252 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-C Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 240-284 (69.9 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-C Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Amoonguss: 200-236 (46.2 - 54.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-C Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 122-144 (36 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-C Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Uxie: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-C Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 150-178 (46.4 - 55.1%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyrantrum: 460-543 (150.8 - 178%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
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Punchshroom

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Rotom-Mow B+ to A- I'm not the best RU player to reply here, but Rotom-C is the powerful and faster Special Grass type that can deal many damage to Flying types (Virizion Special can't unless it get 2x with HP Ice and takes OHKO to Fletchinder's Acrobatics)
I think the term you're looking for is 'special Grass-type not weak to Flying-types', because the likes of Venusaur and Abomasnow can also deal massive damage to Flying-types. In any case, I don't believe a Grass-type that doesn't get revenged by Flying-types (only if it's healthy) is a particularly solid niche, and one of them, Sigilyph, uses Heat Wave anyway.

with many Water types in tier, Rotom-C is a good revenge killer, even not so high, its speed tier is enough to outspeed any Water type (and none Water type in RU runs Choice Scarf).
This isn't an impressive feat, considering every Water-type in the tier bar suicide lead Qwilfish (which has declined heavily in popularity) are remarkably slow; even Abomasnow outspeeds the lot of them as is, much less Venusaur.

This with Specs have awesome STABs, Leaf Storm can deal many damage even to some resists with low SpD (like Offensive Tangrowth), Volt Switch can give momentum, Thunderbolt a good damage and Trick can just switch its item destroying things like stall. It can run HP Fire, with a modest nature 2HKOing Tangrowth AV, Escavalier AV, Mega Steelix and has almost 100% chance from 2HKOing standard Amoonguss with Stealth Rocks in field. Its Scarf set is good to revenge kill many things and get momentum. Unfortunately, Rotom-C stays in trouble many times with Alomomola teams. Alomomola can scout with Protect, then switch into an Electric immunity, if Tricks, a Mega or a pokémon that enjoys choice itens, but after Electric immunities from the team stay fainted, Rotom-C can easily be a threat to any team. Another problem is the -2 that Leaf Storm inflicts, giving much times some free turns, but its damage is still many high with this.
See, from your description here, I'm starting to think you'd be better off with Manectric, which boasts many of the advantages you claim Rotom-C to have, such as Volt Switch, TBolt, and even Switcheroo. You also talked up a good bit about HP Fire, while Manectric's access to Flamethrower and Overheat gives it a far easier time against them; it also permits Manectric to run other Hidden Powers. Meanwhile, I don't even particularly condone HP Fire on Rotom-C; HP Flying is probably superior in this meta as greater damage on Virizion matters more than greater damage on Escavalier. You also brought up Rotom-C's issue of being Choice locked against Protect mons, and Manectric suffers less from this issue as the greater strength of its coverage moves means it can better equip Life Orb (for example, LO TBolt + Overheat cleanly KOes AV Tangrowth).

You didn't manage to bring up Rotom-C's unique strengths, mainly that its STAB Leaf Storm alone allows it to cover, or at least do substantial damage to, every conceivable Electric immunity in the tier, and the fact that it has Levitate to evade Dugtrio (arguably the bigger reason Manectric uses Life Orb > Choice items). However, Rotom-C has a trickier time dealing with Electric resists, many of which have good longevity, and the fact that you say you've struggled against teams with Electric immunities, despite Rotom-C being more equipped to handle said teams than other Electrics, hardly fuels your argument on this mon rising in Rank.
 

Natan

...
is a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
See, from your description here, I'm starting to think you'd be better off with Manectric, which boasts many of the advantages you claim Rotom-C to have, such as Volt Switch, TBolt, and even Switcheroo. You also talked up a good bit about HP Fire, while Manectric's access to Flamethrower and Overheat gives it a far easier time against them; it also permits Manectric to run other Hidden Powers. Meanwhile, I don't even particularly condone HP Fire on Rotom-C; HP Flying is probably superior in this meta as greater damage on Virizion matters more than greater damage on Escavalier. You also brought up Rotom-C's issue of being Choice locked against Protect mons, and Manectric suffers less from this issue as the greater strength of its coverage moves means it can better equip Life Orb (for example, LO TBolt + Overheat cleanly KOes AV Tangrowth).
You didn't manage to bring up Rotom-C's unique strengths, mainly that its STAB Leaf Storm alone allows it to cover, or at least do substantial damage to, every conceivable Electric immunity in the tier, and the fact that it has Levitate to evade Dugtrio (arguably the bigger reason Manectric uses Life Orb > Choice items). However, Rotom-C has a trickier time dealing with Electric resists, many of which have good longevity, and the fact that you say you've struggled against teams with Electric immunities, despite Rotom-C being more equipped to handle said teams than other Electrics, hardly fuels your argument on this mon rising in Rank.
Well, that's right, my bad, I just forget Manectric lol
 
So, here is an odd one, but Im nominating Simipour from unranked to C

Item: Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Nasty Plot / Taunt

This thing may not look impressing stat wise, and its typing and movepool makes it look like a frail Samurott.
However, the thing that Simipour has going for it, is its high speed, sitting at base 101, outspeeding the likes of Flygon, Hitmonlee, Medicham, Drapion, Sigilyph, Houndoom and Venusaur.
To have an offensive water type in RU is quite rare, the other competitors being Samurott and Clawitzer. And the thing is that neither of them outspeeds Venusaur. While Simipour wont OHKO Venusaur, Ice Beam still does well over half, which means it can deal with it after some prior damage.

252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur: 211-250 (70 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This is the point where Simipour carves itself a rather unique niche in RU; As a fast, offensive, Water type.
As for the moves of choice, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam and Grass Knot is to gain perfect coverage, much like Samurott does with its special set. On the fourth slot either Nasty Plot or Taunt can be used, as it is Simipurs best tools to get through Alomomola and Jellicent.

Unfortunately, Simipour is rather frail, which makes it hard to set up Nasty Plots on other things than passive water types, but it can be done with some prediction, as Simipour threatens out a fair amount of pokemon in RU with its perfect coverage. Its frailty unfortunately also makes it vulnerable to priority attacks after some rounds of rocks and life orb recoil, which reduces its viability, but I am only asking for C for now.

Even though some of the replays below shows Simipour leading off, it is better off being a revenge killer and late-game cleaner, due to its speed and frailty.
But anyways, here are some replays where Simipour wallbreaks, cleans, or both:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-367215882

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-365252244

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-365067787

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-365072001

So yeah, give this Monkey a chance in RU.
 
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MFW LINOONE ISN'T ON VIABILITY RANKINGS

Okay, Linoone is definitely worthy of C- rank. All joking aside, it can actually be a relatively effective Pokemon against some teams in the metagame. The definition for C-Rank is "Pokemon in this rank typically require more extensive support, struggle performing against the Pokemon ranked above, and are difficult to fit on teams." I think Linoone accurately fits this definition, especially since it will be a C- rank Pokemon. Like Klinklang, if you weaken the hard counters such as Mega Steelix, Linoone can tear through teams after 1 boost. Linoone may be harder to set up, but it also is walled by fewer Pokemon after 1 turn of setup. Linoone does not really need to outrun that much in this tier, so one can afford to invest in HP. 108 Speed is all it needs to outrun Hoopa, which it can KO with Shadow Claw; this leaves it 148 EVs for HP, which are enough to let it set up on weak attackers like Aromatisse and Slowking (hope for no Scald Burn obviously). Gunk Shot is also an option over Shadow Claw which can let it OHKO Tangrowth and physically defensive Aromatisse at the cost of not being able to hit Bronzong or KO Hoopa without a Belly Drum. Memento support isn't even needed a lot of the time, although it is certainly helpful. As I stated before, not that many Pokemon in this tier can actually beat Linoone once it is at +6, so sacrificing a Pokemon for the purposes of Memento may very well allow its user to win instantly. Obviously it has its flaws, but it is being nominated for C- rank so that is to be expected. Linoone for C-.

EDIT: According to Spirit, replays are required so apologies in advance to the people below who had to get savaged by this behemoth.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-366976538
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ru-134010
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ru-117544
 
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So, here is an odd one, but Im nominating Simipour from unranked to C

Item: Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Nasty Plot / Taunt

This thing may not look impressing stat wise, and its typing and movepool makes it look like a frail Samurott.
However, the thing that Simipour has going for it, is its high speed, sitting at base 101, outspeeding the likes of Flygon, Hitmonlee, Medicham, Drapion, Sigilyph, Houndoom and Venusaur.
To have an offensive water type in RU is quite rare, the other competitors being Samurott and Clawitzer. And the thing is that neither of them outspeeds Venusaur. While Simipour wont OHKO Venusaur, Ice Beam still does well over half, which means it can deal with it after some prior damage.

252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur: 211-250 (70 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

This is the point where Simipour carves itself a rather unique niche in RU; As a fast, offensive, Water type.
As for the moves of choice, Hydro Pump, Ice Beam and Grass Knot is to gain perfect coverage, much like Samurott does with its special set. On the fourth slot either Nasty Plot or Taunt can be used, as it is Simipurs best tools to get through Alomomola and Jellicent.

Unfortunately, Simipour is rather frail, which makes it hard to set up Nasty Plots on other things than passive water types, but it can be done with some prediction, as Simipour threatens out a fair amount of pokemon in RU with its perfect coverage. Its frailty unfortunately also makes it vulnerable to priority attacks after some rounds of rocks and life orb recoil, which reduces its viability, but I am only asking for C for now.

Even though some of the replays below shows Simipour leading off, it is better off being a revenge killer and late-game cleaner, due to its speed and frailty.
But anyways, here are some replays where Simipour wallbreaks, cleans, or both:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-367215882

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-365252244

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-365067787

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-365072001

So yeah, give this Monkey a chance in RU.
While Simipour has good coverage and excellent speed, there's a mon that outclass Simipour as a Water late game cleaner in PU and NU, and it should do the same in RU


Floatzel @ Life Orb / Specs
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Baton Pass

With a less amount of Sp Att. (same than Blastoise) and lack of Grass Knot, Floatzel still seems to be a better option thanks to its higher speed which allows to outspeed Delphox and Virizion which is huge, + speed tie with Sneasel (and Ambigod+Flinchcinno). The lack of strong move to lure down bulky water is compensated by accessing to Baton Pass, which allows a clean switch-in for Mons like Virizion or Venusaur to come free on a bulky water/grass to check Floatzel. It's coverage pressures most rocks resist the way it can paired up with Tyrantrum as well, getting synergy with most biggest threads in RU. It's physical set is not that powerful but it get access to a fast STAB Aqua Jet to revenge kill Fletch, which is quite valuable to Offense builds.

Simipour gets access to great set-up as well as better movepool (Bulk Up Float is a thing on lower tiers though), but as a cleaner Floatzel speed makes it much valuable.Plus, mons like Hoopa are much better setting up NP thanks to higher bulk and attack stats, outclassing Simipour on this way which needs lots of support for getting a spot to set-up. Floatzel offers better utility on BP, Taunt, Pursuit or Switcheroo as well, so if any Water cleaner can get to be ranked, then it should be Floatzel.

Damage comparission:
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur: 190-226 (63.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur: 211-250 (70 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Crappy replays (I've been tired of mons lately but Floatzel still do things)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-354728357
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-356895060

TL;DR:Floatzel outspeeds Virizion
 

MrAldo

Hey
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Gonna make a revival cause why not

Sawk to drop to B+: This was nominated to drop a while ago and I honestly agree with it all the way. It cant be denied that it is really strong but it is really sad when the sturdy is broken it loses its niche and inmediately becomes an outclassed option compared to even hitmonlee. Blastoise and flygon pairing really well is a plus to pull off its niche much more comfortably but the fact that it NEEDS that support to function means it is generally an inferior and much more constraining choice for a fighting type wallbreaker. All things considered, it shouldnt drop any further but B+ is perfect for it.

Qwilfish to drop to B: Can get behind this nomination. All things considered, qwilfish is just not too good nowadays. Still struggling against flygon to keep the hazards and trying to run ice beam means it can sacrifice bulk or/and utility since it needs investment to do sustantial damage to it is sad. Venusaur introduction to the tier and the prevalance of mons like virizion and tangrowth makes qwilfish life hell. Durant leaving also was a huge blow on its viability, being one of the best checks on offense and durant decreasing the usage of grass types. People would rather run garbodor than qwilfish on their offenses lately since garb actually checks opposing grass types without sacrificing utility (using the standard movepool). Gotta drop to B

Samurott to stay on B
: This mon has its good amount of problems but I dont think it should drop since it just functions much better than stuff like piloswine, garbodor, roselia, vivillon and musharna. Id say the special life orb set is its best set right now since grass types like venusaur and virizion cant risk switch into a life orb boosted ice beam doing a massive chunk and even spdef AV tangrowth cant switch since it risks getting 2hkod by ice beam after rocks. Really similar to sharpedo just not being the massive threat to offense the shark was but having great power and coverage to annoy balance a lot while having the utility of taunt to stop mola from passing wishes and passive defensive mons in general. Being an offensive water type that can break opposing water types without much support is also really appealing. Sad reality we live in with the lack of offensive waters but it is the most functional one right now. I think it should stay B.

Granbull to B+:
This mon is pretty good and much better than basically every in B (junk like aromatisse and bronzong are there). Anyways, fighting types are really threatening right now and granbull manages to be one of the most reliable stop to most of them these days which is fantastic from a teambuilding perspective since they can be so hard to deal with right now. Intimidate is a great ability to pivot into a plethora of physical attackers and it even can pull a choice band set that is surprisingly difficult to switch into virtue of really nice coverage to hit switch-ins. Good mon and should rise. B+ please.

Bronzong should drop even further but I have never used that so what do I know. Also linoone is dank.

Cheers!
 

mael

not the same but equal
is a Community Contributorwon the 14th Official Smogon Tournamentis a Past SPL Champion
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i don't agree with your view on qwilfish and granbull. you're trying to argue that we should drop qwilfish, a pokemon with intimidate and a fighting ressist and then in the same post you argue that we should rise a pokemon to qwilfishs former tier, because it has a fighting ressist and intimidate.

qwilfish has several things going for it, which should grant it at least the same rank as granbull. first of all spikes (and to an extent tspikes); we all know how great spikes are, and even though ru has really good hazard removal it's still common to have teams without hazard removal and the pokemon that remove hazards can be punished pretty easily (flygon a little harder, but regardless) so you can still use spikes to your advantage. it gets ice beam and taunt as means of preventing defog, hell it can even run explosion on more offensive sets, just to put pressure on removers. another great advantage is the fact that it gets scald. qwilfish and granbull both allow one of the most threatening pokemon (venusaur) to switch in, but as scald is a great move it allows qwilfish to at least kinda out venu on a timer (it actually punishes all the switchins) and force it to recover a lot more often, whereas granbull basically means that venu gets to spam attacks (unless you wanna click fire punch every single time that granbull is out, but even that isn't as troublesome for venu as a burn is). pain split helps qwilfish to stay in the game a lot longer even after it's leftovers got knocked off, so it works a little better as a fighting check (not to mention that we've seen fightings use poison moves).
granbull on the other hand has healbell going for it, as well as the fact that it's better against virizion and scrafty, but i don't think that outvalues the utility qwilfish offer so much that granbull deserves to an entire rank higher.

i'd also keep bronzong in b, simply because it still does what it always did and sometimes it's the only pokemon that can fit to patch up holes a team has. as well as the fact that it's one of the better answers to common stuff like tyrantrum and venusaur should grant it a mediocre rank, despite it's drawbacks.
 
While Simipour has good coverage and excellent speed, there's a mon that outclass Simipour as a Water late game cleaner in PU and NU, and it should do the same in RU


Floatzel @ Life Orb / Specs
Ability: Water Veil
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Baton Pass

With a less amount of Sp Att. (same than Blastoise) and lack of Grass Knot, Floatzel still seems to be a better option thanks to its higher speed which allows to outspeed Delphox and Virizion which is huge, + speed tie with Sneasel (and Ambigod+Flinchcinno). The lack of strong move to lure down bulky water is compensated by accessing to Baton Pass, which allows a clean switch-in for Mons like Virizion or Venusaur to come free on a bulky water/grass to check Floatzel. It's coverage pressures most rocks resist the way it can paired up with Tyrantrum as well, getting synergy with most biggest threads in RU. It's physical set is not that powerful but it get access to a fast STAB Aqua Jet to revenge kill Fletch, which is quite valuable to Offense builds.

Simipour gets access to great set-up as well as better movepool (Bulk Up Float is a thing on lower tiers though), but as a cleaner Floatzel speed makes it much valuable.Plus, mons like Hoopa are much better setting up NP thanks to higher bulk and attack stats, outclassing Simipour on this way which needs lots of support for getting a spot to set-up. Floatzel offers better utility on BP, Taunt, Pursuit or Switcheroo as well, so if any Water cleaner can get to be ranked, then it should be Floatzel.

Damage comparission:
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur: 190-226 (63.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur: 211-250 (70 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Crappy replays (I've been tired of mons lately but Floatzel still do things)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rususpecttest-354728357
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ru-356895060

TL;DR:Floatzel outspeeds Virizion
Regarding the matters that Floatzel outclasses Simipour, I dont quite agree.

While Floatzel might be the better late-game cleaner in PU and NU, Im not sure that transfers over to RU, as the only pokemon that Floatzels is guaranteed to outspeed in RU that Simipour doesnt, are Delphox and Virizion. I can see outspeeding Delphox being an advantage, as Floatzel OHKO-es it easily, but the same cant be said for Virizion:

252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 156-185 (48.2 - 57.2%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 178-210 (55.1 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Unlike Venusaur, which only needs to have taken 1 or 2 rounds of stealth rocks + 1 round of recoil from Life Orb to be knocked out by Simipours/Floatzels Ice beam, Virizion needs alot more prior damage to be knocked out by Floatzel, as Virizion is resistant to stealth rocks, and takes much less damage from Ice Beam than Venusaur does.

Of course, Simipour cant take down Virizion at all, but I got the impression that the main reason for why Floatzel outclasses Simipour is that it outspeeds Virizion, and as implicated above, this doesnt seem to be too much of an advantage.

And then there is the advantages Simipour has over Floatzel which, as being mentioned, is the higher power and access to Grass Knot. While the two water types come close in power, as you showed with the Venusaur calcs, the difference in power might still be a factor that changes the tide in a battle.

252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 252-299 (88.1 - 104.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 231-273 (80.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Medicham: 243-289 (93.1 - 110.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Medicham: 222-263 (85 - 100.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And the lack of Grass Knot is also an issue, as shown in your first replay, where Floatzel baton passes out to Flygon on the Seismitoad, where Simipour just could have KO-ed it or forced it out.(Floatzel could have had HP grass, but it still doesnt OHKO with life orb).
And the fact the Simipour can 2hko Blastoise, Slowking and Jellicent, while Floatzel has to hope for the 3hko on those,(assuming it is Life Orb) is also something to take into consideration. Yes, baton passing into Venusaur is an option, but that allows the opposing pokemon to do what they please for that round, as well as eventually burn the Venusaur on the switch in.

But I would like to point out that Floatzels Water Veil ability can be rather useful, especially if you use taunt together with it, as it allows it to completely shut down Alomomola. So there is a niche that Floatzel can have, but it might not be the best idea in conjunction with an all out offensive set.

All in all, I dont think Floatzel should be taking Simipours slot as a fast, offensive water type, due to its advantages in speed over Simipour might just be as important as the advantages Simipour has with its higher damage-output.
 
Floatzel I can't see going higher than C+/B-. Sure, it's, a fast, offensive water type, which does give it a niche. However, it only fits on certain team archetypes, which does limit its viability. It's not a herald of Bulky Offense like Megalix, a godly offense pokemon like Tyrantrum, or a stellar setup sweeper like Virizion. Sure, it CAN be good, but only in specific situations.

Now, you're overselling Simipour's offensive capabilities. The only niche I can see for this thing is SubSalac NP, which is a REALLY small niche. You stated that Virizion needed a lot more prior damage for FLoatzel to 2HKO; is that really so?

252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 156-185 (48.2 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

However you may put it, A 2HKO is a 2HKO is a 2HKO. Floatzel gets all of those 2HKO's, while having a MUCH higher speed tier that allows it to outspeed the majority of the tier. HP Grass is also extremely common on Floatzel's special sets, and this one person's replay does not say anything about that.

252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Seismitoad: 322-385 (77.9 - 93.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Until Simipour can get that extra 20% boost on its attacks over Floatzel, and turn those 2HKO's into OHKO's, it can and will be sorely outclassed outside of Nasty Plot, which I think, is only enought to give it D/C- rank.

You mention that outspeeding Virizion "isn't that big". IT'S HUGE. The fact that it fails to outspeed key offensive threats such as Delphox and Virizion makes it essentially dead weight versus fast HO, which Floatzel performs excellently against, being able to outspeed and KO a fair number of pokemon.

I'd also like to pose a question to you: Why would post a calc of how SImipour fares against SIgilyph when it can't even risk staying in?

Baton Pass is also a significant advantage for Floatzel, being able to switch into a favorable matchup with ease, and only coming back to clean up with its great speed tier.

You are overstating SImipour's offensive capabilities by way too much. It's just sorely outclassed.
 

Take Azelfie

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Since no one has brought this up Choice Band is also a really good set as well. First off it is able to get past Calm Mind users after a few boost (except for Slowking) and it is able to pursuit trap as well. Baton Pass lets it carry momentum and it has a burn immunity (burnless Scalds) which gives it an edge over Samurott. Not to mention Choice Band can actually OHKO Virizion after Stealth Rocks
252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Virizion: 276-326 (85.4 - 100.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I also kind of think Specs is better LO since it makes 2HKOing more reliable but I'll get into that later if I have to.

edit: Floatzel's a Water-type that can run physical or special with decent options on both sides on the spectrum
 

Lord Death Man

i cant read
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
floatzel is honestly an awful mon - incredibly poor matchup versus everything but HO, at best will cripple something that still walls it with switcheroo. simipour is also awful but nasty plot means it can at least do something versus balance teams, and honestly Water/Ice/Grass coverage is fantastic coverage against common balance cores. it's a pretty bad mon, C at best, but it's much better than floatzel because it actually does something against the most common team composition in the tier. you're comparing mons with two very different roles just because their typing is the same. they do both suck though.

Also Granbull is a fighting check, qwilfish is just a fighting resist and it often loses to 3 of the big ones granbull checks (medicham, emboar, virizion). Fire punch does 50% to venusaur, which is enough to make them think twice, so I disagree that it's a free switch. I don't know if I agree with a Granbull raise but I do think that Qwil should drop, and I often feel that Qwilfish has more dead matchups than Granbull. Barely comparable mons though.
 
It's not that Floatzel isn't outclassed by Simipour as a balance breaker - it's that he claimed that Simipour did well versus HO (which it does NOT do, by any measure).
 
to B+

Braviary has gotten better in the RU metagame lately.

It has really good coverage, making it very hard to switch into combined with it's good Attack stat, and can fulfill multiple roles, such as a bulky attacker, a revenge killer, a wallbreaker, and a sweeper, most of which can be done all in a single set. It's ability also gives the middle finger to most common hazard removers and Granbull, which has also been getting better lately. Not to mention, Durant is now gone, which means one less thing harming Braviary's viability.

Granted, Braviary isn't perfect. Most physical walls can shut it down, but almost all of them don't enjoy switching in on a Superpower. Its Speed is subpar, but RU is filled to the brim with slow mons and Braviary is faster than most of them. Stealth Rock also gives it trouble. But I think that Braviary's upsides outweigh it's downsides just enough for a B+ ranking.
 
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Wandering Wobbuffet

formerly Based Honker
Um your reasoning seems really flawed. You're clearly referring to braviary's spdef bulk up set here. However it gets an sd on your switch and OHKOs you. Unless you're scarf you're not outspeeding it and if you are scarf and it stone edges then you die to recoil on the brave bird anyways. I'm neutral on this nom really but I would at least need good reasoning for me to totally agree with it. (Not to mention that nom you made with fletch a few weeks ago which also had extremely flawed reasoning.)
 
Um your reasoning seems really flawed. You're clearly referring to braviary's spdef bulk up set here. However it gets an sd on your switch and OHKOs you. Unless you're scarf you're not outspeeding it and if you are scarf and it stone edges then you die to recoil on the brave bird anyways. I'm neutral on this nom really but I would at least need good reasoning for me to totally agree with it. (Not to mention that nom you made with fletch a few weeks ago which also had extremely flawed reasoning.)
I wasn't solely referring to the Bulk Up set. I was only referring to it as a Virizion check. Everything else about the nomination I was referring to its other sets.

Brave Bird recoil can be patched up with Roost when using Sharp Beak.
 
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