Policy Review RM Update

bugmaniacbob

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OK, we can deal with the possibility of a name change later. Good to see that people are willing to derive the necessary lists for us; many thanks for that.

jas61292, while the DP lists were derived in that way, the BW lists certainly weren't; petrie911 dealt with move-move lists as follows:
OK, Move-Move requirements, take 2. In this list, move X requires move Y if

A) More than 90% of fully-evolved Pokemon that can learn move X through any method can learn move Y through a 5th gen method.
B) More than 5 fully-evolved Pokemon can learn move X.

It should be noted that Smeargle was excluded from the fully-evolved Pokemon, as its ability to learn every move in the game skews the stats. Strength, Rain Dance, Sunny Day, and Rock Smash were also excluded, as they are found on a majority of fully-evolved Pokemon.
This seems reasonable, with 6th gen substituted for fifth, although parts of it are arbitrary and could probably be adjusted, and the exclusions of Strength/RD/Sunny Day/Rock Smash may perhaps merit checking to see if they could be universally required moves like hyper beam and return.

Nyktos Note that the list of universally required moves was already a part of the process, it just... isn't actually written down anywhere for some reason, bar the original PRC threads

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Anyway, for those of you going a-spelunking, here is what's needed:
  • A list of universal required moves (namely TMs such as Return and Protect) - moves that are found on 100% of fully-evolved Pokemon that can actually learn TMs (so excluding Wobbuffet and other outliers)
  • A list of type-move requirements (all those moves found on 90% of Pokemon of a given type, outliers excluded, and only factoring in XY methods of learning)
  • A list of move-move requirements (all those moves found on 90% of Pokemon with a given other move, outliers excluded, and only factoring in XY methods of learning)
  • Something like a scatter plot of movepool size and number of VGMs versus BSR, for sake of working out the ranges - again, only XY methods of learning
And, if possible:
  • The minimum, maximum, and mean number of level-up moves for fully-evolved Pokemon
  • The minimum, maximum, and mean number of level 1 moves for fully-evolved Pokemon
  • The minimum, maximum, and mean number of TM moves for fully-evolved Pokemon
  • The minimum, maximum, and mean number of egg moves for fully-evolved Pokemon
Though these are more for sake of updating the guide to creating a Pokemon's movepool than any actual process relevance

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More discussion would be nice on Type-Move vs. Move-Move vis-a-vis required vs guideline, since I'm not sure how intuitive it would be to make one list required but the other a guideline when trying not to confuse new movepool makers (and let's face it movepool submissions are already convoluted enough as it is) how exactly BSR will factor into (if at all) determining movepool limits, and whether we want hard limits or ranges.

Sorry for quick reply must dash
 
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Nyktos

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A list of universal required moves (namely TMs such as Return and Protect) - moves that are found on 100% of Pokemon that can actually learn TMs (so excluding Magikarp and other outliers)
This should probably specify fully-evolved Pokémon (because Hyper Beam / Giga Impact) and maybe should be like 95% instead of 100% (Regigigas not learning Protect doesn't mean that it shouldn't be on the list).
 

jas61292

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Well, in that case, I'm fine with that. Anyways, I ran some code using that definition, and things seem odd.

I ran this using the 5 Fully Evolved Pokemon minimum limit, 90% correlation rate limit, and with a move exclusion list (for being correlated, not for having moves correlate with) of Attract, Double Team, Facade, Frustration, Hidden Power, Protect, Rest, Return, Round, Sleep Talk, Substitute, Swagger, Toxic, Confide, Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Rain Dance, and Sunny Day. This list is fairly arbitrary and just based on observations of what appeared to be correlating with an incredibly large number of moves, despite no real connection to them, but I think it is pretty reasonable. Smeargle was also excluded for obvious reasons, as well as the non-base forms of Kyurem and Rotom who would have minimal effect on anything. Anyways, using these limits, and only looking at the correlations with VGMs, the output I got is as follows:

The number next to the first move in a row is the number of fully evolved Pokemon that learn it, and the number next to the second move in a row is the number of those Pokemon that also learn the corresponding move.
Code:
airslash 31   ==>   aerialace 31
aquajet 22   ==>   icebeam 20
aquajet 22   ==>   surf 20
aquatail 27   ==>   surf 25
aromatherapy 16   ==>   flash 16
avalanche 13   ==>   blizzard 13
avalanche 13   ==>   hail 13
avalanche 13   ==>   icebeam 13
bellydrum 18   ==>   rocksmash 17
bellydrum 18   ==>   strength 17
blizzard 115   ==>   icebeam 115
bravebird 14   ==>   aerialace 14
bravebird 14   ==>   fly 13
bravebird 14   ==>   roost 13
bravebird 14   ==>   steelwing 13
brickbreak 142   ==>   rocksmash 131
bugbuzz 21   ==>   strugglebug 21
bugbuzz 21   ==>   aerialace 19
bulkup 46   ==>   rocksmash 45
bulkup 46   ==>   strength 45
bulkup 46   ==>   brickbreak 44
bulkup 46   ==>   rockslide 42
bulletpunch 10   ==>   brickbreak 10
bulletpunch 10   ==>   rocksmash 10
bulletpunch 10   ==>   strength 10
circlethrow 7   ==>   fling 7
circlethrow 7   ==>   rocksmash 7
circlethrow 7   ==>   strength 7
circlethrow 7   ==>   poweruppunch 7
circlethrow 7   ==>   focusblast 7
closecombat 23   ==>   retaliate 21
closecombat 23   ==>   rocksmash 21
closecombat 23   ==>   strength 21
coil 6   ==>   strength 6
cosmicpower 14   ==>   flash 13
cosmicpower 14   ==>   psychup 13
cosmicpower 14   ==>   shadowball 13
counter 51   ==>   rocksmash 49
counter 51   ==>   strength 47
crosschop 11   ==>   brickbreak 11
crosschop 11   ==>   fling 11
crosschop 11   ==>   rocksmash 11
crosschop 11   ==>   strength 11
crosschop 11   ==>   poweruppunch 11
crosschop 11   ==>   focusblast 11
crosschop 11   ==>   dig 10
crosschop 11   ==>   bulldoze 10
crosschop 11   ==>   earthquake 10
crosschop 11   ==>   rockslide 10
crosschop 11   ==>   rocktomb 10
crosspoison 7   ==>   xscissor 7
defog 12   ==>   aerialace 11
discharge 25   ==>   thunder 25
discharge 25   ==>   thunderbolt 25
discharge 25   ==>   thunderwave 25
discharge 25   ==>   chargebeam 23
dragonclaw 35   ==>   honeclaws 34
dragontail 46   ==>   rocksmash 42
drainpunch 8   ==>   brickbreak 8
drainpunch 8   ==>   fling 8
drainpunch 8   ==>   poweruppunch 8
drainpunch 8   ==>   focusblast 8
drainpunch 8   ==>   rocksmash 8
drainpunch 8   ==>   strength 8
drillpeck 7   ==>   aerialace 7
drillpeck 7   ==>   peck 7
drillpeck 7   ==>   steelwing 7
earthpower 23   ==>   bulldoze 23
earthpower 23   ==>   earthquake 23
earthpower 23   ==>   rocksmash 22
earthpower 23   ==>   rockslide 22
earthpower 23   ==>   rocktomb 22
earthpower 23   ==>   stoneedge 21
earthquake 148   ==>   bulldoze 148
earthquake 148   ==>   rocksmash 138
earthquake 148   ==>   strength 134
eruption 5   ==>   fireblast 5
eruption 5   ==>   flamethrower 5
eruption 5   ==>   incinerate 5
eruption 5   ==>   lavaplume 5
eruption 5   ==>   overheat 5
eruption 5   ==>   rocksmash 5
eruption 5   ==>   strength 5
eruption 5   ==>   bulldoze 5
eruption 5   ==>   solarbeam 5
extremespeed 8   ==>   rocksmash 8
fireblast 81   ==>   flamethrower 81
fireblast 81   ==>   incinerate 81
firefang 31   ==>   strength 31
firefang 31   ==>   rocksmash 28
firepledge 6   ==>   ember 6
firepledge 6   ==>   fireblast 6
firepledge 6   ==>   flamecharge 6
firepledge 6   ==>   flamethrower 6
firepledge 6   ==>   incinerate 6
firepledge 6   ==>   overheat 6
firepledge 6   ==>   willowisp 6
firepledge 6   ==>   poweruppunch 6
firepledge 6   ==>   blastburn 6
firepledge 6   ==>   solarbeam 6
firepunch 18   ==>   fling 18
firepunch 18   ==>   focusblast 18
firepunch 18   ==>   poweruppunch 17
flameburst 15   ==>   flamethrower 15
flameburst 15   ==>   fireblast 14
flameburst 15   ==>   incinerate 14
flamecharge 31   ==>   flamethrower 30
flamecharge 31   ==>   fireblast 29
flamecharge 31   ==>   incinerate 29
flamecharge 31   ==>   overheat 29
flamecharge 31   ==>   willowisp 29
flamecharge 31   ==>   solarbeam 29
flareblitz 14   ==>   fireblast 14
flareblitz 14   ==>   flamecharge 14
flareblitz 14   ==>   flamethrower 14
flareblitz 14   ==>   incinerate 14
flareblitz 14   ==>   overheat 14
flareblitz 14   ==>   willowisp 14
flareblitz 14   ==>   solarbeam 13
focuspunch 19   ==>   fling 19
focuspunch 19   ==>   rocksmash 19
focuspunch 19   ==>   strength 19
focuspunch 19   ==>   focusblast 19
focuspunch 19   ==>   brickbreak 18
focuspunch 19   ==>   poweruppunch 18
foulplay 16   ==>   thief 16
foulplay 16   ==>   torment 15
freezedry 7   ==>   blizzard 7
freezedry 7   ==>   hail 7
freezedry 7   ==>   icebeam 7
frostbreath 18   ==>   blizzard 18
frostbreath 18   ==>   hail 18
frostbreath 18   ==>   icebeam 18
gigadrain 27   ==>   energyball 25
grasspledge 6   ==>   cut 6
grasspledge 6   ==>   energyball 6
grasspledge 6   ==>   flash 6
grasspledge 6   ==>   grassknot 6
grasspledge 6   ==>   leechseed 6
grasspledge 6   ==>   naturepower 6
grasspledge 6   ==>   rocksmash 6
grasspledge 6   ==>   solarbeam 6
grasspledge 6   ==>   strength 6
grasspledge 6   ==>   swordsdance 6
grasspledge 6   ==>   frenzyplant 6
growth 26   ==>   solarbeam 26
growth 26   ==>   energyball 24
growth 26   ==>   grassknot 24
hammerarm 27   ==>   brickbreak 27
hammerarm 27   ==>   rocksmash 27
hammerarm 27   ==>   strength 27
hammerarm 27   ==>   fling 26
hammerarm 27   ==>   bulldoze 25
hammerarm 27   ==>   earthquake 25
hammerarm 27   ==>   rockslide 25
hammerarm 27   ==>   rocktomb 25
headsmash 12   ==>   rocksmash 12
headsmash 12   ==>   rockslide 12
headsmash 12   ==>   rocktomb 11
headsmash 12   ==>   stoneedge 11
healbell 7   ==>   shadowball 7
healbell 7   ==>   thunderwave 7
healingwish 16   ==>   safeguard 15
heatwave 14   ==>   fireblast 14
heatwave 14   ==>   flamethrower 14
heatwave 14   ==>   incinerate 14
heatwave 14   ==>   willowisp 14
heatwave 14   ==>   solarbeam 14
heatwave 14   ==>   flamecharge 13
heatwave 14   ==>   overheat 13
highjumpkick 9   ==>   brickbreak 9
highjumpkick 9   ==>   bulkup 9
highjumpkick 9   ==>   lowsweep 9
highjumpkick 9   ==>   rockslide 9
highjumpkick 9   ==>   rocksmash 9
highjumpkick 9   ==>   strength 9
hurricane 12   ==>   aerialace 11
hydropump 48   ==>   surf 45
hydropump 48   ==>   blizzard 44
hydropump 48   ==>   icebeam 44
hypervoice 16   ==>   echoedvoice 16
icepunch 17   ==>   fling 17
icepunch 17   ==>   focusblast 16
iceshard 14   ==>   blizzard 13
iceshard 14   ==>   hail 13
iceshard 14   ==>   icebeam 13
iciclespear 5   ==>   blizzard 5
iciclespear 5   ==>   hail 5
iciclespear 5   ==>   icebeam 5
ingrain 20   ==>   grassknot 19
ironhead 20   ==>   rocksmash 19
jumpkick 5   ==>   retaliate 5
lavaplume 9   ==>   fireblast 9
lavaplume 9   ==>   flamethrower 9
lavaplume 9   ==>   incinerate 9
lavaplume 9   ==>   overheat 9
lavaplume 9   ==>   rocksmash 9
lavaplume 9   ==>   strength 9
leafblade 11   ==>   grassknot 10
leafblade 11   ==>   swordsdance 10
leafstorm 19   ==>   energyball 19
leafstorm 19   ==>   flash 19
leafstorm 19   ==>   grassknot 19
leafstorm 19   ==>   solarbeam 19
leafstorm 19   ==>   naturepower 18
leechseed 32   ==>   energyball 32
leechseed 32   ==>   grassknot 32
leechseed 32   ==>   solarbeam 32
leechseed 32   ==>   flash 29
leechseed 32   ==>   naturepower 29
lowkick 16   ==>   fling 15
lowkick 16   ==>   poweruppunch 15
machpunch 8   ==>   brickbreak 8
machpunch 8   ==>   rocksmash 8
machpunch 8   ==>   strength 8
magiccoat 9   ==>   shadowball 9
moonblast 11   ==>   flash 10
moonblast 11   ==>   lightscreen 10
moonlight 12   ==>   flash 11
muddywater 20   ==>   surf 19
nightshade 15   ==>   psychic 14
nuzzle 6   ==>   charge 6
nuzzle 6   ==>   chargebeam 6
nuzzle 6   ==>   flash 6
nuzzle 6   ==>   fling 6
nuzzle 6   ==>   thunder 6
nuzzle 6   ==>   thunderbolt 6
nuzzle 6   ==>   thunderwave 6
nuzzle 6   ==>   voltswitch 6
nuzzle 6   ==>   discharge 6
overheat 38   ==>   flamethrower 36
overheat 38   ==>   fireblast 35
overheat 38   ==>   incinerate 35
petalblizzard 10   ==>   energyball 10
petalblizzard 10   ==>   grassknot 10
petalblizzard 10   ==>   naturepower 10
petalblizzard 10   ==>   petaldance 10
petalblizzard 10   ==>   solarbeam 10
petaldance 10   ==>   energyball 10
petaldance 10   ==>   grassknot 10
petaldance 10   ==>   naturepower 10
petaldance 10   ==>   solarbeam 10
petaldance 10   ==>   petalblizzard 10
psyshock 56   ==>   psychup 56
psyshock 56   ==>   lightscreen 54
psyshock 56   ==>   psychic 54
psyshock 56   ==>   flash 53
quiverdance 9   ==>   solarbeam 9
reversal 31   ==>   rocksmash 29
roar 106   ==>   rocksmash 97
rockpolish 53   ==>   rocksmash 48
rockpolish 53   ==>   rocktomb 48
rockslide 170   ==>   rocktomb 158
rockslide 170   ==>   rocksmash 155
roost 63   ==>   aerialace 58
scald 62   ==>   surf 59
scald 62   ==>   icebeam 57
seedbomb 16   ==>   energyball 16
seedbomb 16   ==>   grassknot 16
seedbomb 16   ==>   leechseed 16
seedbomb 16   ==>   solarbeam 16
seismictoss 12   ==>   brickbreak 12
seismictoss 12   ==>   fling 11
seismictoss 12   ==>   focusblast 11
seismictoss 12   ==>   rockslide 11
seismictoss 12   ==>   rocksmash 11
seismictoss 12   ==>   rocktomb 11
seismictoss 12   ==>   strength 11
skyuppercut 7   ==>   rocksmash 7
skyuppercut 7   ==>   strength 7
skyuppercut 7   ==>   fling 7
slackoff 5   ==>   bulldoze 5
slackoff 5   ==>   earthquake 5
slackoff 5   ==>   strength 5
slackoff 5   ==>   rocksmash 5
sleeppowder 13   ==>   energyball 13
sleeppowder 13   ==>   flash 13
sleeppowder 13   ==>   solarbeam 13
sleeppowder 13   ==>   stunspore 12
sludgewave 30   ==>   sludgebomb 28
spark 15   ==>   thunder 14
spark 15   ==>   thunderbolt 14
spark 15   ==>   thunderwave 14
stealthrock 17   ==>   sandstorm 17
stealthrock 17   ==>   rocksmash 16
stealthrock 17   ==>   rocktomb 16
stickyweb 6   ==>   flash 6
stickyweb 6   ==>   strugglebug 6
stickyweb 6   ==>   bugbite 6
stoneedge 111   ==>   rocksmash 107
stoneedge 111   ==>   rockslide 103
stoneedge 111   ==>   rocktomb 102
stoneedge 111   ==>   strength 100
storedpower 19   ==>   shadowball 19
stunspore 18   ==>   energyball 18
stunspore 18   ==>   flash 18
stunspore 18   ==>   solarbeam 18
superfang 6   ==>   cut 6
superpower 22   ==>   rocksmash 21
superpower 22   ==>   strength 21
superpower 22   ==>   rockslide 20
synthesis 23   ==>   energyball 23
synthesis 23   ==>   grassknot 23
synthesis 23   ==>   solarbeam 23
synthesis 23   ==>   naturepower 22
synthesis 23   ==>   flash 21
thunder 112   ==>   thunderbolt 111
thunderfang 27   ==>   strength 27
thunderpunch 16   ==>   fling 16
thunderpunch 16   ==>   focusblast 16
thunderpunch 16   ==>   firepunch 15
thunderbolt 122   ==>   thunder 111
trick 14   ==>   shadowball 14
trickroom 61   ==>   psychic 57
trickroom 61   ==>   psychup 57
trickroom 61   ==>   flash 56
vacuumwave 6   ==>   brickbreak 6
vacuumwave 6   ==>   bulletpunch 6
vacuumwave 6   ==>   counter 6
vacuumwave 6   ==>   feint 6
vacuumwave 6   ==>   rocksmash 6
vacuumwave 6   ==>   strength 6
voltswitch 28   ==>   thunderwave 27
voltswitch 28   ==>   thunder 26
voltswitch 28   ==>   thunderbolt 26
waterpledge 6   ==>   blizzard 6
waterpledge 6   ==>   dig 6
waterpledge 6   ==>   fling 6
waterpledge 6   ==>   hydropump 6
waterpledge 6   ==>   icebeam 6
waterpledge 6   ==>   rocksmash 6
waterpledge 6   ==>   scald 6
waterpledge 6   ==>   strength 6
waterpledge 6   ==>   surf 6
waterpledge 6   ==>   waterfall 6
waterpledge 6   ==>   hydrocannon 6
waterspout 5   ==>   blizzard 5
waterspout 5   ==>   hydropump 5
waterspout 5   ==>   icebeam 5
waterspout 5   ==>   scald 5
waterspout 5   ==>   surf 5
waterspout 5   ==>   waterfall 5
waterspout 5   ==>   waterpulse 5
waterfall 58   ==>   surf 58
waterfall 58   ==>   icebeam 57
waterfall 58   ==>   blizzard 53
As you might notice here there is a significantly higher number of such correlations than there were last gen, at least going by the on site list (82 correlations on the on site list, 346 from my code for this gen). I mean, its always possible the generation shift is odd or our changes in VGMs had an effect, but even so, this seems like a ton more that small things like that really couldn't explain away. And of course, the list would get even longer if we include correlations where the base move is not a VGM. Do we know if the list on site was actually correct with those rules bmb posted above? I get the feeling that the minimum or percentage are different, so maybe we should discuss that. Though if anyone has another explanation, that would be good to hear.

EDIT: Fixed the egg/prevo move error and updated the above data.
 
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Bughouse

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Yeah, there's something going wrong in this code. It seems to be ignoring moves learned by methods other than TM or Level-Up (and maybe Tutor idk). But it's definitely ignoring Egg moves and maybe event/DW/old Tutor moves too.

Toxic Spikes is learned by a lot more than merely 7 fully evolved Pokemon. There are 7 fully evolved mons who learn Toxic Spikes by Level-Up, but this excludes quite a few Pokemon. For example, Venomoth gets Toxic Spikes via breeding, but cannot learn Payback. The same goes for Omastar, Ariados, Greninja, and Dragalge.


EDIT: there are issues with moves learned by Prevos only too. Nidoking/queen learn Toxic Spikes by earlier evolution, and they fail to make the cut of the things that this code thinks learn Toxic Spikes.

EDIT 2: good to know jas! Thanks for doing this.
 
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bugmaniacbob

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As you might notice here there is a significantly higher number of such correlations than there were last gen, at least going by the on site list (82 correlations on the on site list, 345 from my code for this gen). I mean, its always possible the generation shift is odd or our changes in VGMs had an effect, but even so, this seems like a ton more that small things like that really couldn't explain away. And of course, the list would get even longer if we include correlations where the base move is not a VGM. Do we know if the list on site was actually correct with those rules bmb posted above? I get the feeling that the minimum or percentage are different, so maybe we should discuss that. Though if anyone has another explanation, that would be good to hear.
That's because the on-site table is the DPP one. The BW one was never added (well it was added and then removed because I wasn't allowed to make changes to the events pages but yeah quibbles).

Give me a second to count the number of BW correlations.

EDIT: ~280 correlations total for BW. Note that this is also excluding Rock Smash and Strength which according to jas's table was not done here, so accounts for 56 of those XY correlations. Although sunny day and rain dance don't seem to be there fsr.

EDIT2: Oh I missed that SD/RD were universals, ignore me please
 
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Bughouse

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OK so jas was awesome and extracted move-move correlations for ALL moves this time, not just VGMs, with at least 5 cases and minimum 75% correlation (75% was just picked to give the list a bottom). That dataset, ranked by percentage is here

EDIT: yes that dataset is accurate, I had an incorrect one there before, but jas was awesome again

Comments on this dataset are appreciated so we can move forward on how we want to make cut-offs for what guidelines actually get published in the movepool guide.




My personal comments would probably be that raising the number of cases from 5 is a good idea, as is lowering the percentage from 90% a bit. The reason for that is just some tolerance on the small sample sizes. Things like

focuspunch 19 ==> rockslide 17 | 89.47%
focuspunch 19 ==> rocktomb 17 | 89.47%
leafstorm 19 ==> cut 17 | 89.47%
leafstorm 19 ==> swordsdance 17 | 89.47%

would all miss the cut of being represented in the guidelines, while literally one more Pokemon with these would push them to 18/20 and over the limit. And there are a LOT of borderline cases here between 85% and 90%. So I'd probably go for an approach that's got a few rules. Maybe raise the minimum count to 8 and take anything with at least 87.5% (7/8), unless it's things with a count of 5/6/7 and a 100% correlation (otherwise we risk cutting out things like drillpeck 7 ==> peck 7 | 100% which would be silly.)
 
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Bull of Heaven

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Sorry if this is the wrong time to bring this up, but judging by the discussion so far, I don't think there will be a better one.

I object to the existence of type-move and move-move guidelines. I think they should be abolished entirely.

Before writing this post, I went back through old PR threads to find out what the justification for these lists had been in the first place. I was surprised at how little I found. The only apparent competitive reason was something vague about how it forces people to make tougher decisions if they want particular good moves in their submissions. I don't buy it. We have so many other checks in place to keep movepools under control that there really isn't any need for this one, and all of them are better because we have control over them. If, say, Brave Bird is required to share space with four other VGMs, it becomes difficult to fit into a movepool whether that difficulty provides competitive value or not, which means that a benefit from this policy isn't something we can assume. We already set movepool limits. We set VGM limits. We give slating power to certain trusted leaders. We have a "market" of sorts in which each submission has to distinguish itself from the others while not being so outrageous as to turn voters away. All of these are better mechanisms than some arbitrary lists that Game Freak fed to us by accident, and they eliminate any competitive need for said lists.

If you eliminate competitive reasoning, all that's left is flavour. One thing that I'll never understand about the CAP community is the fascination with "precedence" when making flavour decisions. Game Freak ignores precedence all the time, which ironically means that there's a strong precedent for not sticking to precedence. There's nothing "more realistic" about strictly following correlations that Game Freak set, when we're all aware that Game Freak might cease to set any one of them at any time. More importantly, flavour is more subjective than these lists acknowledge. If you, as an individual submitter, want to prioritize precedence when making flavour decisions, that's absolutely fine, but it shouldn't be enforced so strongly on others. You can make a perfectly reasonable Grass-type movepool that lacks Swords Dance, and the really "unrealistic" movepools won't get votes anyway. Again, all the checks we need are already there.

So that's the case against mandatory type-move and move-move restrictions. But we shouldn't keep them as guidelines either. Doing so does not actually solve the problem of some people imposing their subjective understandings of flavour on others, since the process guide is meant to be a credible source of information, and the pressure to conform to what it says is obvious. The lists also present a distorted picture of how the process actually goes, making it seem like you need to follow these relatively complicated guidelines if you want your submission to do well. Note that in constructing my Cawmodore movepool, which finished second in the polls, I never so much as looked at these lists. As rules, they impose unreasonable restrictions; as guidelines, they trick people with false pressure because they have no actual teeth.

Type-move and move-move guidelines are a bad idea. Let's get rid of them.
 

paintseagull

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I don't agree that we should do away with the guidelines, I do agree that we don't need them as strict rules. I wouldn't call it 'false pressure' but rather encouragement to make something that aligns with existing movepools and the pokemon universe as gamefreak has imagined it. If you want to break with strong precedence, you ought to have very strong competitive reasoning to do so. CAP always struggles to stay away from the "let's give it X, because why not" mentality, and this is another way we can provide structure to keep us off that path. That said, the easiest way to have people ignore these guidelines is to have them be too messy or unruly. Only the strongest precedence should be listed as a guideline, while other curiosities (low numbers, low correlations) can be provided for interest (since jas made them anyway, we can make them available for others).

5% of FE pokemon is about 19, and that's the lowest number of cases I can support as a cutoff. Even at a cutoff of 40 cases I think we'd get lots of guidelines. Actually, it would probably make the most sense to figure out how many guidelines we consider to be reasonable to encourage, and then select our cutoffs accordingly.

I've got the PS data loaded up now and I've made a graph for BST-movepool. It's Generation 6 Movepool size vs BST for fully evolved Pokemon (excluding Undiscovered egg group (legendaries), alternate formes, Smeargle, Wobbuffet, Shedinja, Ditto and Unown), coloured by dex number. I've done a line of best fit through these points in blue. The correlation coefficient for the points is about 0.27. In addition, CAPs are shown in green.



My conclusion is that there's a small but not insignificant* correlation here, and a lot of spread. Also, we've been pretty good in the past in creating realistic pokemon, at least in this regard.
* I haven't actually done a statistical significance calculation.

I can try to do this for BSR too, but trying to get the equations from the spreadsheet is a bit tedious, does someone have these equations written out more explicitly somewhere? Or can I calculate them myself from data?
 

bugmaniacbob

Was fun while it lasted
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Will respond with more later, but for now, "wow that graph is incredibly sexy"

I can try to do this for BSR too, but trying to get the equations from the spreadsheet is a bit tedious, does someone have these equations written out more explicitly somewhere? Or can I calculate them myself from data?
The BSRs for all Pokemon ever should be included in the spreadsheet; here are Gen VI only (no legends/mega evos - you can take out alt formes if you want)

Code:
Chespin    105.2957646305
Quilladin    169.3896625783
Chesnaught    277.9672619543
Fennekin    96.4259614609
Braixen    171.161405453
Delphox    292.7410627704
Froakie    100.6959636576
Frogadier    170.1018312529
Greninja    288.2570842797
Bunnelby    52.9354631174
Diggersby    196.0402081011
Fletchling    77.753826989
Fletchinder    150.6612187233
Talonflame    247.4150274849
Scatterbug    38.0026610846
Spewpa    53.0340828073
Vivillon    173.671517764
Litleo    143.1139930504
Pyroar    270.2118394043
Flabébé    97.2896660435
Floette    143.5064942928
Florges    299.6277717333
Skiddo    127.2771601476
Gogoat    280.1953770961
Pancham    125.9515988056
Pangoro    237.0508948914
Furfrou    232.8850920989
Espurr    133.205058462
Meowstic    224.6728297373
Honedge    112.246235744
Doublade    196.2648527091
Aegislash-B    223.4862133577
Aegislash-S    272.4665298622
Spritzee    136.1566023551
Aromatisse    216.7256536979
Swirlix    125.5022888282
Slurpuff    237.3079823976
Inkay    90.1768701789
Malamar    241.5618301769
Binacle    100.4416338624
Barbaracle    251.6773772254
Skrelp    109.2166828741
Dragalge    228.9592171573
Clauncher    114.5930114393
Clawitzer    233.1170238955
Helioptile    83.9676144878
Heliolisk    239.1255885617
Tyrunt    133.2554937971
Tyrantrum    271.94557029
Amaura    139.2852483158
Aurorus    277.7693712154
Sylveon    279.4903255012
Hawlucha    256.790223024
Dedenne    194.635021611
Carbink    245.8181967399
Goomy    95.0468347704
Sliggoo    206.5161471323
Goodra    349.6510892524
Klefki    219.3559932775
Phantump    96.2888628651
Trevenant    223.2624263647
Pumpkaboo-S    116.230913822
Pumpkaboo-M    118.6943077634
Pumpkaboo-L    120.2612471457
Pumpkaboo-XL    122.5510629739
Gourgeist-S    240.5023187683
Gourgeist-M    244.806770004
Gourgeist-L    248.6911402738
Gourgeist-XL    248.8857896148
Bergmite    104.8863397779
Avalugg    276.9005810096
Noibat    58.1721302957
Noivern    287.3926946631
 

paintseagull

pink wingull
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Thanks bmb, for some reason the idea to copy-paste the BSR numbers into a spreadsheet and import them to python didn't occur to me the other day.
Here's the same thing as above but for BSR:


Basically the same deal! Edit: Here's another plot with Generation 6 pokemon + CAPs
So basically, we're a bit over the best fit line if we keep our current guidelines.
(For interest, here's where the CAPs fit in when I plot all the moves that PS lists, not just Generation 6)

Here are some stats! Except for "Full Mean" they're calculated by excluding any sets that have 0 in that category. For example, in the Tutor section, only pokemon that are able to learn Move Tutor moves are included in that section's min, max, standard deviation and mean. Full mean includes all pokemon (FE, non-legendary, no formes, exceptions list the same as above).

Code:
Generation 6
Egg moves:  Min = 3.0, Max = 20.0, Mean = 10.8, StDev = 3.2, Full Mean = 9.8
Event:  Min = 4.0, Max = 8.0, Mean = 5.5, StDev = 1.1, Full Mean = 0.2
TM:  Min = 22.0, Max = 59.0, Mean = 37.0, StDev = 7.2, Full Mean = 37.0
Level up:  Min = 1.0, Max = 27.0, Mean = 17.4, StDev = 3.1, Full Mean = 17.4
Tutor:  Min = 1.0, Max = 2.0, Mean = 1.6, StDev = 0.5, Full Mean = 0.2
Here's a box plot to compliment the above data. Here, sets with 0's in the category are included:

(edit: added All moves to the above graph)
 
Last edited:

paintseagull

pink wingull
is a Top Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Ok since nobody else has time/cares/is obsessed with my analysis (and it's frankly just too much information for what we need), I'll toss up a proposal:

Proposal: The BSR-movepool limit guidelines should be changed to the following:
Code:
Category             BSR         Category   Total moves  VGMs
Above Average     250 =>    Fantastic            75    35
Good                  300 =>    Excellent            70    33
Very Good           350 =>    Very Good          65    30
Excellent             400 =>    Good                 60    27
Fantastic             450 =>    Above Average    55    25
Reasoning: The former guidelines were
Category BSR Category Total moves VGMs
Above Average 250 => Fantastic 95 45
Good 300 => Excellent 85 40
Very Good 350 => Very Good 75 35
Excellent 400 => Good 65 30
Fantastic 450 => Above Average 55 25
These were fine before, but at the start of this Gen we have no tutor moves and movepool sizes are smaller than at the end of last-gen. We need a negatively correlated relationship for our guidelines but realistically there is a slight positive relationship, so we should just worry about staying within the spread of the data and I think my proposal does this. I haven't analyzed the VGMs yet so I just tried to make total movepool size to VGM the same ratio as before. Does anyone think these limits are too low? CAPs are usually between 275 and 350 BSR, for reference.

And in case anyone's interested in BSR statistics, here they are.
 

bugmaniacbob

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aw, I'm sorry I couldn't respond to this sooner, psg - I promise I care I really do

Anyway, very quickly, Bull of Heaven if the information is there then there is really no reason to not provide the lists purely for information's sake; we have a guide to creating a Pokemon movepool, and it would be nice to have it updated, especially when people might want to have a bit of help in building a movepool if they want to. Not everybody is automatically going to be able to build a movepool from scratch without difficulty - here are a set of simple rules that can at least provide a groundwork.

On another note, thanks for the hard work, psg. It would probably be good to do the same for VGMs, but since that's a fair bit more time-consuming I'll understand if time is better spent elsewhere. The movepool limits presented seem reasonable enough, certainly - and as you say, since there really is a positive correlation between BSR and movepool size (not certain if significant) it seems we will have to rather play the limits game by ear. While the limits are rather above the average line given, I think that's reasonable considering we're trying to make OU Pokemon. If anybody has any objections to psg's proposed limits I'd love to hear them. One quibble I have is that I'm not certain why you have 70/33 for Good but 60/27 for excellent (or, why you rounded differently for these two). If anything I'd say the limits might even be too generous, but that's not too big an issue.

As for the mean/min/max number of moves in a movepool... I kind of meant gen 6 only, since as you can see from the ones you gave for all Pokemon, there are some weird ones from previous generations that keep gaining egg moves or lv1 moves to replace lost TMs or whatever it might be, hence the maximum for level-up being 27 and eggs being 20, etc. So yeah, if possible could we have the same thing but just with gen 6 fully-evolved Pokemon?

With regard to move correlation tables, 20 seems like the reasonable minimum cut-off - from my fiddling about today it reduces jas's master list to around 600, which can be reduced even further once a percentage threshold has been set down. I'm not sure what threshold I'll use when putting them into the Movepool Builder versus on the site somewhere, but hopefully everybody else will have reasonable opinions. At the moment I'm rather in agreement with the sentiments expressed regarding there being no mandatory move combinations, barring the list of moves every Pokemon gets that jas provided (I'll wait for the type-move tables before setting down Sunny Day and Rain Dance in stone, however, since I think that those are found on everything save Water/Ice/Fire Pokemon)

Speaking of the movepool builder, I implemented all the new exemptions and new VGM decisions. Took rather a while.

So, yeah. More thoughts on movepool limits, type-move tables, et ceteri.
 

Bull of Heaven

Guest
Fair enough. In hindsight, my post was a little hyperbolic. I don't personally see much value in the lists, but there's no harm in having information, and I'm sure that plenty of people don't bother with the guidelines that I use. I'm withdrawing my objection to the existence of the lists, but I'm still strongly opposed to making either of them mandatory. I also checked what's currently said about them in the process guide, and the wording seems fine.

I don't think I ever said anything about the idea of changing the term "VGM". I'm not too concerned about it, but "restricted move" is probably the best term that's been suggested. It's a little clearer than "VGM" or "competitive move," and seems less likely to cause any confusion.

.5k!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

jas61292

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For the most part here, I think we have a consensus that we should keep these as guidelines, but not as anything resembling requirements. Beyond that, the only real thing we have left to discuss is exactly where to set the limits and whatnot on these guidelines.

Regarding BSR-movepool limits guidelines, I personally have no problems with those proposed by paintseagull. There is only so much analysis we can do, especially for something like this where we are essentially making up a limit, due to the actual correlation being direct, rather than inverse like we need. These limits make sense, especially within the context of a new gen without tutors and the like. So long as we are willing to look back and revise this should tutors or other learn methods come up in newer games this gen, I am fine with going with this.


Anyways, I think we should be looking to try and wrap this thread up within the next few days. There are really just a few things we still need to discuss.

1) BSR-movepool limits - if anyone has any problems or suggestions about the limits psg posted, then let us know. Otherwise, we can just go with them.
2) Move-Move limits - we do need to nail down the exact numbers for the percent and minimum Pokemon cutoffs. Based on what people have said here, around 19-20 Pokemon with a 90% correlation seems to be a good place to set it. That would give us a little over 200 total guidelines. As with the previous point, if you have other opinions on this, please post about it.

And

3) Type-Move guidelines - these have not really been calculated out yet, but I am thinking that whatever guidelines we end up setting for Move-Move should just be used here too. As always, if you disagree, please speak up soon. I'll try and get these calculated out sometime this weekend, though if anyone else wants to do it before then, feel free.

So, yeah, lets try and get these last few things decided soon, so we can finish this thread up.
 

paintseagull

pink wingull
is a Top Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
VGM vs BSR:

Stats for G6 pokemon only:
Code:
Generation 6 - G6 Pokemon only
Egg moves:  Min = 3.0, Max = 13.0, Mean = 4.7, StDev = 1.9, Full Mean = 4.6
Event:  Min = 4.0, Max = 6.0, Mean = 5.0, StDev = 1.0, Full Mean = 0.3
TM:  Min = 29.0, Max = 57.0, Mean = 38.1, StDev = 7.2, Full Mean = 38.1
Level up:  Min = 13.0, Max = 25.0, Mean = 17.9, StDev = 2.5, Full Mean = 17.9
Tutor:  Min = 1.0, Max = 2.0, Mean = 1.4, StDev = 0.5, Full Mean = 0.3


As for the limits
Estimating the "Fantastic" region in the VGM distribution gives me about 38. If I compare that to the equivalent place on the Total moves graph (75) that gives an almost exactly 2 to 1 ratio. If I apply that consistently to the limits and round up, we get:
75/38, 70/35, 65/33, 60/30, 55/28
This would result in a smaller range of VGM limits than we had last gen (higher on the low end, lower on the high end) and a reduced number of Total moves (equivalent on the low end, lower on the high end). So:

Modified Proposal: The BSR-movepool limit guidelines should be changed to the following:
Code:
Category             BSR         Category   Total moves  VGMs
Above Average     250 =>    Fantastic            75    38
Good                  300 =>    Excellent            70    35
Very Good           350 =>    Very Good          65    33
Excellent             400 =>    Good                 60    30
Fantastic             450 =>    Above Average    55    28
Thoughts? (keeping in mind jas' suggestion that we finish up!)
 

Bughouse

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Can you remove the leverage point on the right and re-run the regression? On the surface it seems it's skewing the results.

EDIT: Thanks. Hard to tell sometimes, but I guess there are just that many data points, and it's not really thaaaaaaat far to the right.
 
Last edited:

bugmaniacbob

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Small update, but here's what I have so far on updating the guide to creating a movepool (where I've decided the lists should be put)

Code:
[title]
Guide to Creating a CAP Movepool in XY
[page]
<div class="author">Written by <a href="/forums/member.php?u=43161">Rising_Dusk</a> with research by <a href="/forums/member.php?u=2412">X-Act</a> [also jas and psg]. Updated for X/Y by <a href="/forums/member.php?u=25105">bugmaniacbob</a>.</div>

<ol class="toc">
<li><a href="#intro">Introduction</a></li>
<li><a href="#restrict">Movepool Restrictions</a></li>
<li><a href="#require">Movepool Requirements</a></li>
<li><a href="#tm">Technical Machine Moves</a>
<ul>
<li><a href="#tmlist">TM Move List</a></li>
</ul>
</li>
<li><a href="#levelup">Level-Up Moves</a></li>
<li><a href="#egg">Egg Moves</a></li>
<li><a href="#tutor">Move Tutor Moves</a>
<ul>
<li><a href="#tutorlist">Move Tutor Move List</a></li>
</ul>
</li>
<li><a href="#event">Event Moves</a></li>
<li><a href="#flavour">Flavour Notes</a>
<ul>
<li><a href="#type">Type-Move Guidelines</a></li>
<li><a href="#move">Move-Move Guidelines</a></li>
</ul>
</li>
<li><a href="#example">Example</a>
<ul>
<li><a href="#talonflame">Talonflame's Movepool</a></li>
</ul>
</li>
</ol>

<h2><a name="intro">Introduction</a></h2>

<p>Movepools are largely considered the single most important competitive aspect of a Pokémon. The reasoning for this is that a movepool defines a Pokémon's diversity, what they can and cannot beat, and what functionality they can provide for their team. Some movepools, such as those of Tyranitar and Genesect, are enormous and provide nearly limitless options, while others, like that of Talonflame, are just big enough to make the Pokémon worth using. Both of these types of movepools have their respective places with different CAPs, but there's a lot to movepools that might not be apparent at first glance. This article's focus is to bring those tricks and traps to the forefront and address them so that you might not make the same mistakes that many others have in the past when creating your CAP movepool.</p>

<h2><a name="restrict">Movepool Restrictions</a></h2>

<p>In the past, many CAP movepools have tended to creep in power toward being bloated with as many legal moves as possible. In order to address these issues, as well as bring CAP Pokémon movepools back in line with the movepools of common OU Pokémon, some limitations and restrictions were placed upon the movepool stage of the CAP process. As described in <a href="/cap/process/events/movepool_submissions#poolsize">this</a> process guide article, the size of a Pokemon's movepool is limited by its Base Stat Rating (a measure of how good the stat spread is relative to all other Pokemon), such that the greater the BSR, the lower total number of moves, and number of Very Good Moves, are allowed in the movepool. A Very Good Move is defined as "A move that is considered by the combination of its power, accuracy, effect chance, move priority, power points, and overall type coverage to be of distinct individual competitive advantage in any given movepool", and a list of them can be found <a href="/cap/process/events/movepool_submissions#verygood">here</a>. Note, however, that there are lots of rules governing what is and isn't a Very Good Move based on different situations - for example, a Pokemon with Zap Cannon would have it classed as a VGM if it had No Guard as well, but not if it had a different ability. The article provided goes into more detail about these restrictions and exemptions. A complete list of Very Good Moves can also be found in that article, but you can also refer to <a href="/cap/articles/competitive_moves">this</a> article for a list of these moves split up into categories, thus making them a lot easier to deal with. Once these restrictions are set, you as a movepool creator must adhere to them strictly.</p>

<h2><a name="require">Movepool Requirements</a></h2>

<p>While the raw limit placed on the number of Very Good Moves and total number of moves that may be in your CAP Pokémon's movepool is generally the only specific requirement placed, there exist some specific requirements that need to be adhered to. Certain moves that all Pokemon get, such as Toxic, Round, and Protect, are required on all movepools, unless the Movepool Leader specifies otherwise. All of these are Technical Machines, and are highlighted on the list of TM moves below. In addition, the Very Good Moves that are and are not allowed on your movepools will be specified during the <a href="/cap/process/events/move_discussion">Move Discussion</a> stages, such that all moves that are too strong or otherwise undesirable for that particular CAP will be made illegal. You should be aware that the default position on any particular move is that they are illegal - if they are not specifically listed in the Move Discussion as allowed, then they are disallowed. If there's a particular move you want to add to your movepool for flavour reasons, but which is not brought up for discussion during this time, then make sure that you bring it up yourself so that the Movepool Leader can declare it allowed. You should also take note that Legendary Signature moves (a list of which can be found <a href="/cap/process/events/movepool_submissions#verygood">here</a>) are automatically disallowed for all CAPs.</p>

<h2><a name="tm">Technical Machine Moves</a></h2>

<p>There are 100 TM moves available to all Pokémon, plus 5 HM moves. Existing fully-evolved Gen VI Pokemon have anywhere between 22 and 59 TM moves in their movepool, with an overall average of 37 moves. It should be noted that, with some exceptions, Fire- and Grass-type Pokémon tend not to learn any Ice-type moves, while Ice- and Grass-type Pokémon tend not to learn any Fire-type moves.</p>

<h3><a name ="tmlist">TM Move List</a></h3>
<table class="sortable">
<thead>
<tr>
<th colspan="5" style="text-align: center;">TM Moves</th>
</tr>
</thead>
<tbody>
    <tr>
        <td>TM01 Hone Claws</td>
        <td>TM26 Earthquake</td>
        <td>TM51 Steel Wing</td>
        <td>TM76 Struggle Bug</td>
        <td>HM01 Cut</td>
    </tr><tr class="a">    
    <td>TM02 Dragon Claw</td>
        <td><strong>TM27 Return</strong></td>
        <td>TM52 Focus Blast</td>
        <td>TM77 Psych Up</td>
        <td>HM02 Fly</td>
    </tr><tr>    
    <td>TM03 Psyshock</td>
        <td>TM28 Dig</td>
        <td>TM53 Energy Ball</td>
        <td>TM78 Bulldoze</td>
        <td>HM03 Surf</td>
    </tr><tr class="a">    
    <td>TM04 Calm Mind</td>
        <td>TM29 Psychic</td>
        <td>TM54 False Swipe</td>
        <td>TM79 Frost Breath</td>
        <td>HM04 Strength</td>
    </tr><tr>    
    <td>TM05 Roar</td>
        <td>TM30 Shadow Ball</td>
        <td>TM55 Scald</td>
        <td>TM80 Rock Slide</td>
        <td>HM05 Waterfall</td>
    </tr><tr class="a">    
    <td><strong>TM06 Toxic</strong></td>
        <td>TM31 Brick Break</td>
        <td>TM56 Fling</td>
        <td>TM81 X-Scissor</td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr>    
    <td>TM07 Hail</td>
        <td><strong>TM32 Double Team</strong></td>
        <td>TM57 Charge Beam</td>
        <td>TM82 Dragon Tail</td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr class="a">    
    <td>TM08 Bulk Up</td>
        <td>TM33 Reflect</td>
        <td>TM58 Sky Drop</td>
        <td>TM83 Infestation</td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr>    
    <td>TM09 Venoshock</td>
        <td>TM34 Sludge Wave</td>
        <td>TM59 Incinerate</td>
        <td>TM84 Poison Jab</td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr class="a">    
    <td><strong>TM10 Hidden Power</strong></td>
        <td>TM35 Flamethrower</td>
        <td>TM60 Quash</td>
        <td>TM85 Dream Eater</td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr>    
    <td><strong>TM11 Sunny Day*</strong></td>
        <td>TM36 Sludge Bomb</td>
        <td>TM61 Will-O-Wisp</td>
        <td>TM86 Grass Knot</td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr class="a">    
    <td>TM12 Taunt</td>
        <td>TM37 Sandstorm</td>
        <td>TM62 Acrobatics</td>
        <td><strong>TM87 Swagger</strong></td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr>    
    <td>TM13 Ice Beam</td>
        <td>TM38 Fire Blast</td>
        <td>TM63 Embargo</td>
        <td><strong>TM88 Sleep Talk</strong></td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr class="a">    
    <td>TM14 Blizzard</td>
        <td>TM39 Rock Tomb</td>
        <td>TM64 Explosion</td>
        <td>TM89 U-turn</td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr>    
    <td><strong>TM15 Hyper Beam</strong></td>
        <td>TM40 Aerial Ace</td>
        <td>TM65 Shadow Claw</td>
        <td><strong>TM90 Substitute</td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr class="a">    
    <td>TM16 Light Screen</td>
        <td>TM41 Torment</td>
        <td>TM66 Payback</td>
        <td>TM91 Flash Cannon</td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr class="a">    
    <td><strong>TM17 Protect</strong></td>
        <td><strong>TM42 Facade</strong></td>
        <td>TM67 Retaliate</td>
        <td>TM92 Trick Room</td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr>    
    <td><strong>TM18 Rain Dance**</strong></td>
        <td>TM43 Flame Charge</td>
        <td><strong>TM68 Giga Impact</strong></td>
        <td>TM93 Wild Charge</td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr class="a">    
    <td>TM19 Roost</td>
        <td><strong>TM44 Rest</strong></td>
        <td>TM69 Rock Polish</td>
        <td>TM94 Rock Smash</td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr>    
    <td>TM20 Safeguard</td>
        <td><strong>TM45 Attract***</strong></td>
        <td>TM70 Flash</td>
        <td>TM95 Snarl</td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr class="a">    
    <td><strong>TM21 Frustration</strong></td>
        <td>TM46 Thief</td>
        <td>TM71 Stone Edge</td>
        <td>TM96 Nature Power</td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr>    
    <td>TM22 Solar Beam</td>
        <td>TM47 Low Sweep</td>
        <td>TM72 Volt Switch</td>
        <td>TM97 Dark Pulse</td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr class="a">    
    <td>TM23 Smack Down</td>
        <td><strong>TM48 Round</strong></td>
        <td>TM73 Thunder Wave</td>
        <td>TM98 Power-Up Punch</td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr>    
    <td>TM24 Thunderbolt</td>
        <td>TM49 Echoed Voice</td>
        <td>TM74 Gyro Ball</td>
        <td>TM99 Dazzling Gleam</td>
        <td></td>
    </tr><tr class="a">    
    <td>TM25 Thunder</td>
        <td>TM50 Overheat</td>
        <td>TM75 Swords Dance</td>
        <td><strong>TM100 Confide</strong></td>
        <td></td>
    </tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<dl>
<dt>Bolded entries indicate moves that every Pokémon will ordinarily have.</dt>
<dt>* Except most Water- and Ice-type Pokémon</dt>
<dt>** Except most Grass- and Fire-type Pokémon</dt>
<dt>*** Except genderless Pokémon</dt>
</dl>

<h2><a name ="levelup">Level-Up Moves</a></h2>

<p>A level-up move list can contain anywhere from 13 to 25 moves, although the average number of moves is around 18. Up to eight of these moves will be Heart Scale moves, meaning that they can only be relearned using a Heart Scale, aren't known at level 1, and aren't learned at any higher level. A Pokémon may only have a Heart Scale move if it has at least 4 level 1 moves already; consequently, you may have a maximum of twelve effective level 1 moves. This, however, would be an extreme case, as with Florges. As a Pokémon levels up, the moves tend to get more powerful. This means that a move such as Crunch or Earthquake would usually be learned later than Bite or Mud-Slap. Furthermore, if the Pokémon has a pre-evolution, as with Florges or Noivern, one of the following two things will generally happen.</p>
<ul>
<li>Up to three level 1 moves may be repeated in further levels. These moves are learned by the Pokémon's pre-evolution as well. For example, Noivern learns Hurricane, Dragon Pulse, and Boomburst at Level 1, and learns them again at Level 62, 70, and 75, respectively.</li>
<li>The Pokémon has a few level 1 moves, and then an extremely short or non-existent movepool. For example, Florges learns four level 1 moves and eight Heart Scale moves, but has no other level-up moves. This is typically only the case for Pokemon that evolve via stone items. In this case, you may be advised to include a pre-evolution movepool to describe the remainder of its movepool.</li>
</ul>

<h2><a name ="egg">Egg Moves</a></h2>

<p>Egg moves are those moves learned through breeding. In order to have egg moves, you must specify which egg groups the CAP belongs to. The movepool designer will have to decide on egg groups that grant access to the moves that are listed, and it is preferred that they make flavour sense on the Pokémon, but is not entirely necessary. If you are struggling, note that Smeargle can pass down any egg moves you desire, and so putting the CAP in the Field egg group is an entirely legitimate recourse. A Pokémon may have as few as 4 egg moves and at most 13 egg moves, but the average is typically around five. Pokémon that are genderless or do not breed cannot have any egg moves. Note that due to new breeding mechanics, illegal egg combinations will no longer occur barring circumstances with prior generation moves or event moves, the former of which is not an issue as all CAPs for XY are assumed to have come into being in Generation VI, and the latter is typically unnecessary unless you deliberately want an illegality to be present.</p>

<h2><a name ="tutor">Move Tutor Moves</a></h2>

<p>Move Tutors are people in the Pokémon world that teach Pokémon moves for a price. In Pokemon X and Y, there are only a few Move Tutors, and most of these are limited to starter Pokemon. Because of this, they have little competitive value and high flavour price, but are worth mentioning to make you aware that they exist. Note that Draco Meteor is found on most Dragon-types.</p>

<h3><a name ="tutorlist">Move Tutor Move List</a></h3>
<table class="sortable">
<thead>
<tr>
<th colspan="7" style="text-align: center;">Move Tutor Moves</th>
</tr>
</thead>
<tbody>
<tr> <td>Fire Pledge</td> <td>Blast Burn</td> <td>Draco Meteor</td></tr>
<tr class="a"> <td>Grass Pledge</td> <td>Frenzy Plant</td> <td> </td></tr>
<tr> <td> Water Pledge </td> <td> Hydro Cannon </td> <td> </td></tr>
</tbody>
</table>

<h2><a name ="event">Event Moves</a></h2>

<p></p>

<h2><a name ="flavour">Flavour Notes</a></h2>

<h3><a name ="type">Type-Move Guidelines</a></h3>

[tba]

<h3><a name ="move">Move-Move Guidelines</a></h3>

<p>These moves appear on more than 5% of fully-evolved Pokemon (i.e. 20 or more fully-evolved Pokemon) and are found together on over 90% of the </p>

<table class="sortable">
<thead>
<tr><th>Base Move</th>
<th>Required Move</th>
<th>Base Move</th>
<th>Required Move</th>
<th>Base Move</th>
<th>Required Move</th>
<th>Base Move</th>
<th>Required Move</th>
<th>Base Move</th>
<th>Required Move</th></tr>
</thead>
<tbody>
<tr>
<td>Air Slash</td>
<td>Aerial Ace</td>
<td>Counter</td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td>Focus Energy</td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td>Overheat</td>
<td>Flamethrower</td>
<td>Superpower</td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td>Ancientpower</td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Strength</td>
<td>Fury Cutter</td>
<td>Aerial Ace</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Fire Blast</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Strength</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Aqua Jet</td>
<td>Ice Beam</td>
<td>Discharge</td>
<td>Thunder</td>
<td>Giga Drain</td>
<td>Energy Ball</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Incinerate</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Slide</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td> </td>
<td>Surf</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Thunderbolt</td>
<td>Growl</td>
<td>Echoed Voice</td>
<td>Power-Up Punch</td>
<td>Fling</td>
<td>Swallow</td>
<td>Stockpile</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Aqua Ring</td>
<td>Hail</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Thunder Wave</td>
<td>Growth</td>
<td>Solar Beam</td>
<td>Psyshock</td>
<td>Psych Up</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Spit Up</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td> </td>
<td>Surf</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Charge Beam</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Energy Ball</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Light Screen</td>
<td>Synchronoise</td>
<td>Shadow Ball</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td> </td>
<td>Icebeam</td>
<td>Dragon Claw</td>
<td>Hone Claws</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Grass Knot</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Psychic</td>
<td>Synthesis</td>
<td>Energy Ball</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td> </td>
<td>Blizzard</td>
<td>Dragon Tail</td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td>Hail</td>
<td>Ice Beam</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Flash</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Grass Knot</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Aqua Tail</td>
<td>Surf</td>
<td>Earth Power</td>
<td>Bulldoze</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Blizzard</td>
<td>Razor Leaf</td>
<td>Energy Ball</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Solar Beam</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td>Blizzard</td>
<td>Ice Beam</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Earthquake</td>
<td>Hammer Arm</td>
<td>Brick Break</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Grass Knot</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Nature Power</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Brick Break</td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Solar Beam</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Flash</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td>Brine</td>
<td>Surf</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Slide</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Strength</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Flash</td>
<td>Thunder</td>
<td>Thunderbolt</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td> </td>
<td>Ice Beam</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Tomb</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Fling</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Nature Power</td>
<td>Thunderbolt</td>
<td>Thunder</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td> </td>
<td>Hail</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Stone Edge</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Bulldoze</td>
<td>Reversal</td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td>Thunder Fang</td>
<td>Strength</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Bubble</td>
<td>Scald</td>
<td>Earthquake</td>
<td>Bulldoze</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Earthquake</td>
<td>Roar</td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td>Torment</td>
<td>Taunt</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td> </td>
<td>Ice Beam</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Slide</td>
<td>Rock Polish</td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td>Trick Room</td>
<td>Psychic</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td> </td>
<td>Surf</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Strength</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Tomb</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Tomb</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Psych Up</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td>Bubble Beam</td>
<td>Scald</td>
<td>Ember</td>
<td>Fire Blast</td>
<td>Hydro Pump</td>
<td>Surf</td>
<td>Rock Slide</td>
<td>Rock Tomb</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Flash</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td> </td>
<td>Surf</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Flamethrower</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Blizzard</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td>Volt Switch</td>
<td>Thunder Wave</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td> </td>
<td>Ice Beam</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Incinerate</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Ice Beam</td>
<td>Rock Tomb</td>
<td>Rock Slide</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Thunder</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Bug Bite</td>
<td>Struggle Bug</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Flame Charge</td>
<td>Ingrain</td>
<td>Grass Knot</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Thunderbolt</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td>Bug Buzz</td>
<td>Struggle Bug</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Overheat</td>
<td>Iron Head</td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td>Roost</td>
<td>Aerial Ace</td>
<td>Waterfall</td>
<td>Surf</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td> </td>
<td>Aerial Ace</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Will-O-Wisp</td>
<td>Leech Seed</td>
<td>Energy Ball</td>
<td>Scald</td>
<td>Surf</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Ice Beam</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td>Bulk Up</td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Solar Beam</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Grass Knot</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Ice Beam</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Blizzard</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td> </td>
<td>Strength</td>
<td>False Swipe</td>
<td>Swords Dance</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Solar Beam</td>
<td>Scratch</td>
<td>Cut</td>
<td>Water Gun</td>
<td>Surf</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td> </td>
<td>Brick Break</td>
<td>Fire Blast</td>
<td>Flamethrower</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Flash</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Hone Claws</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Ice Beam</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Slide</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Incinerate</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Nature Power</td>
<td>Sludge Wave</td>
<td>Sludge Bomb</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Scald</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td>Bulldoze</td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td>Fire Fang</td>
<td>Strength</td>
<td>Low Sweep</td>
<td>Fling</td>
<td>Smack Down</td>
<td>Rock Slide</td>
<td>Water Pulse</td>
<td>Surf</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td> </td>
<td>Earthquake</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Brick Break</td>
<td>Spit Up</td>
<td>Stockpile</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Ice Beam</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td>Chip Away</td>
<td>Fling</td>
<td>Fire Spin</td>
<td>Fire Blast</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Swallow</td>
<td>Water Sport</td>
<td>Ice Beam</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Slide</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Flamethrower</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Power-Up Punch</td>
<td>Steel Wing</td>
<td>Roost</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Surf</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Incinerate</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Focus Blast</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Aerial Ace</td>
<td>Wing Attack</td>
<td>Aerial Ace</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Tomb</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Will-O-Wisp</td>
<td>Magical Leaf</td>
<td>Flash</td>
<td>Stockpile</td>
<td>Swallow</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Roost</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td> </td>
<td>Strength</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Overheat</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Grass Knot</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Spit up</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Steel Wing</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td> </td>
<td>Brick Break</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Solar Beam</td>
<td>Metal Claw</td>
<td>Hone Claws</td>
<td>Stomp</td>
<td>Strength</td>
<td>Worry Seed</td>
<td>Energy Ball</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td>Close Combat</td>
<td>Retaliate</td>
<td>Flame Charge</td>
<td>Flamethrower</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Aerial Ace</td>
<td>Stone Edge</td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Grass Knot</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Fire Blast</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Slide</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Solar Beam</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td> </td>
<td>Strength</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Incinerate</td>
<td>Mist</td>
<td>Ice Beam</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Rock Tomb</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Leech Seed</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td>Confusion</td>
<td>Flash</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Overheat</td>
<td>Muddy Water</td>
<td>Surf</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Strength</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Flash</td>
</tr>
<tr class="a">
<td> </td>
<td>Psychic</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Will-O-Wisp</td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
<td>Strength</td>
<td>Rock Smash</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Nature Power</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td> </td>
<td>Psych Up</td>
<td> </td>
<td>Solar Beam</td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
<td> </td>
</tr> </tbody>
</table>

<h2><a name ="example">Example</a></h2>

<p>Below is an example movepool for Talonflame. It shows how each of its moves fit into its movepool.</p>

<h3><a name ="talonflame">Talonflame's Movepool</a></h3>
<table class="sortable">
<thead>
<tr>
<th colspan="6" style="text-align: center;">Talonflame's Movepool</th>
</tr>
</thead>
<tbody>
<tr><th style="text-align: center;">Level-Up List</th><th colspan="2" style="text-align: center;">TM List</th><th style="text-align: center;">Egg Moves</th></tr>
<tr> <td> 1. Brave Bird </td> <td> TM01 Hone Claws </td> <td> TM44 Rest </td> <td> Quick Guard </td> </tr>
<tr class="a"> <td> 1. Flare Blitz </td> <td> TM06 Toxic </td> <td> TM45 Attract </td> <td> Snatch </td> </tr>
<tr> <td> 1. Tackle </td> <td> TM08 Bulk Up </td> <td> TM46 Thief </td> <td> Tailwind </td> </tr>
<tr class="a"> <td> 1. Growl </td> <td> TM10 Hidden Power </td> <td> TM48 Round </td> <td>  </td> </tr>
<tr> <td> 6. Quick Attack </td> <td> TM11 Sunny Day </td> <td> TM50 Overheat </td> <td>  </td> </tr>
<tr class="a"> <td> 10. Peck </td> <td> TM12 Taunt </td> <td> TM51 Steel Wing </td> <td>  </td> </tr>
<tr> <td> 13. Agility </td> <td> TM15 Hyper Beam </td> <td> TM59 Incinerate </td> <td>  </td> </tr>
<tr class="a"> <td> 16. Flail </td> <td> TM17 Protect </td> <td> TM61 Will-O-Wisp </td> <td>  </td> </tr>
<tr> <td> 17. Ember </td> <td> TM19 Roost </td> <td> TM62 Acrobatics </td> <td>  </td> </tr>
<tr class="a"> <td> 25. Roost </td> <td> TM21 Frustration </td> <td> TM68 Giga Impact </td> <td>  </td> </tr>
<tr> <td> 27. Razor Wind </td> <td> TM22 Solar Beam </td> <td> TM75 Swords Dance </td> <td>  </td> </tr>
<tr class="a"> <td> 31. Natural Gift </td> <td> TM27 Return </td> <td> TM87 Swagger </td> <td> </td> </tr>
<tr> <td> 39. Flame Charge </td> <td> TM32 Double Team </td> <td> TM88 Sleep Talk </td> <td> </td> </tr>
<tr class="a"> <td> 44. Acrobatics </td> <td> TM89 U-turn </td> <td> TM65 Shadow Claw </td> <td> </td> </tr>
<tr> <td> 48. Me First </td> <td> TM38 Fire Blast </td> <td> TM90 Substitute </td> <td> </td> </tr>
<tr class="a"> <td> 55. Tailwind </td> <td> TM100 Confide </td> <td> TM68 Giga Impact </td> <td> </td> </tr>
<tr> <td> 60. Steel Wing </td> <td> TM42 Facade </td> <td> HM02 Fly </td> <td> </td> </tr>
<tr class="a"> <td> 64. Brave Bird </td> <td> TM43 Flame Charge </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> </tr>
</tbody>
</table>

<p>Talonflame has 50 total moves (seven moves are found twice) in its movepool, 24 of which are Very Good Moves, such that it conforms fairly to the general rule of having half of the moves in a movepool be VGMs. It can clearly be seen from the above lists that the reason Talonflame is highly competitive, at least in terms of its movepool, is its level-up set, which features everything it really needs to be successful, with only a few competitive TMs, such as Swords Dance and U-turn, not being found on the level-up list. Note that Talonflame's BSR is around 250, and hence it sits roughly between "Above Average" and "Good" in terms of its BSR; hence, if Talonflame were a CAP, it would be allowed a far more expansive movepool. The reason that Talonflame is competitively viable in its current state is its Gale Wings ability, and the movepool is nothing particularly exceptional, barring high-powered STAB moves. This, then, is a good example of a successful Pokemon with a limited movepool.</p>
EDIT: put in here for viewing

Note that the move-move table needs to be redone since I stupidly only included moves with >90% correlation and not >/=90%, which screws up most of what I was trying to do - regardless, I'm of the opinion that min. 20 Pokemon learning the move + 90% cutoff gives an ideal number. I'll fix this problem later - too tired at present

Anyway, once we have all the data calculated I'll finish the above, and then put the BSR/VGM cutoffs up for vote as well as a vote on the name "VGM".

Once that's over, we should be done here. At least, we'll have done everything I think needs to be done.
 
Maybe it's too late for this kind of post, but I might as well say it instead of waiting a whole CAP and probably forgetting about it.

I have a proposal for VGMs as follows: Count all attacking moves of a single type with trivial secondary effects as a single VGM. One thing I noticed in the VGM discussion is that there was a lot of arguing about stuff like whether a move's power was still worth its accuracy. I don't think that this is the kind of decision that should be set in stone by fallible, biased players playing a still rather new metagame. Treating every attacking move of one type as one VGM gets rid of what I see as an unnecessary level of subjectivity. What's more, part of the purpose of movepool limits is to regulate efficient movepools. Giving a Pokemon multiple moves of the same type is pretty much the opposite of efficient, important secondary effects notwithstanding, so such a decision is necessarily a flavour-based one and should not be punished in the same way that a competitively efficient decision is punished. There's no need to quibble over power/accuracy thresholds, there's no need to make exceptions based on STAB boosts or ability boosts, and there's no need to pretend that Sludge Bomb and Sludge Wave are somehow different enough for our purposes.

I suppose non-attacking VGMs are best treated subjectively like we've been doing. Some non-attacking moves are obviously dependent on one or more abilities for their viability and even success (e.g. Swagger <.<), but I can't really think of a systematic way to account for that.

If my above proposal is accepted, then that might cause the term "Very Good Move" to make less sense than it currently does, and might cause other current suggestions to make little sense as well...

Re: Bull of Heaven's post

For what it's worth, since I think a lot of the "fascination" with "precedence" comes from me... I think that it's as good a measure of a realistic Pokemon movepool as we're ever going to get, and other measures I've seen so far have been visibly more flawed and self-contradictory under even basic scrutiny. In fact, personally I don't really care about anything other than 100% correlation (either among just the current gen or among all Pokemon), precisely because of what Bull of Heaven pointed out.
 

jas61292

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That's an interesting idea capefeather, but personally, I don't think it is a good idea for us to do something like that. The key thing to me lies in something you actually seem to hint at yourself, though obviously, I reach a different conclusion from it. I fully agree that judging a lot of the difference between moves results in a lot of subjectivity, but I disagree that counting them all as one solves anything. In my opinion, counting them as we do now is the superior choice because it holds personal opinion on good moves to be irrelevant. Unless one thing is objectively, mechanically better, then they all count individually. It doesn't matter if I think Fire Blast is better than Flamethrower and you do not. They are not identical and neither is objectively, mechanically superior to the other, so they count separately.

Counting them all as one within a type also eliminates this kind of subjective judgement, but I think the error in classification that comes with it is much higher. With what we have now, the closest to "error" of classification is about two similar but mechanically separate moves being counted as different when for a specific Pokemon one might be considered better. By changing to something like what you suggest, you get things like Scald and Hydro Pump counting as the same move when they are used in entirely different ways. And, while it is not as prominent this generation with the loss of perma-weather, something like Thunder vs Thunderbolt is still an important case as, unlike with the Flamethrower/Fire Blast case, it is almost universally accepted the the more accurate one is better, unless you are in a situation to improve the accuracy, in which case the power wins out. In such a case it is not so much a subjective difference of opinions separating the move as it is each having their own uses in different situations, and I believe that throwing them all in as one ignores the fact that there is much more to a move than the average damage it does.
 

nyttyn

From Now On, We'll...
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[17:06] <&paintseagull> saying that in the thread would be helpful :p
i'm nyttyn and i approve of these limits. i can't deal with the numbers so much so i glossed over them, but given past movepool creation experience they seem reasonable enough. most of the time limits are lax enough anyways we can just slap whatever we want on and these are pretty close to those limits sooooo they're fine imo.

also 'restricted moves' sounds good too.

supporting capefeather's proposal the way we do it now is dumb. he says everything i want to say really. and jas while i see your point it's still an unnecessary burden on the RMLs (restricted move limits), and that hydro pump - scald thing isn't even relevant since Cape specifically said "Count all attacking moves of a single type with trivial secondary effects as a single VGM." I don't think anyone's going to call a 30% burn chance a trivial secondary effect. Likewise, Thunder's boost to perfect accuracy in the rain is far from a trivial secondary effect, much like discharge's 30% paralyze, etc etc.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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Ok here are my summed up thoughts, since I was asked to post here a few days ago:

20+ moves with a 90% or bigger correlation is a good place to make the cutoff for move-move requirements. Not sure how to handle the calculation of Type-move guidelines just yet.

The BSR -> movepool size limits seem workable to me, if a little on the small side, given all the "required" moves. But I'm all for making movepool creators make the tough choices should it come to that.
 

bugmaniacbob

Was fun while it lasted
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Free time for first time in a week so yeah let's finish this up

Let's make this simple:

1. What should we call the moves that carry these restrictions?

Very Good Move (VGM)
Competitive Move (CM)
Restricted Move (RM)
Universal Competitive Move (UCM)
Generally Competitive Move (GCM)
Other (please specify)

Please format your vote as above. Acronyms given as pre-emptive note because let's face it that's what they'll be referred to once introduced so please don't add any weird stipulations to your vote like "only if we don't make it an acronym" or something

Oh yeah and I'm going to try to do IRV by hand how hard can it possibly be (so rank all options)

2. Which of the two proposed new global movepool limitations should we adopt?

Initial Proposal (i.e. 250 BSR -> 75 Total, 35 VGM etc.)
Modified Proposal (i.e. 250 BSR -> 75 Total, 38 VGM etc.)
psg edit: I put together an easy reference for the limits here!

Please include only the bolded for your votes.

--------

As far as type-move and move-move are concerned, 20+ moves with 90% cutoff seems ample enough. In any case, since it doesn't impact on anything save two sections in the How to Build a Movepool and possibly the Movepool Builder, it's not really something worth voting about, since it doesn't have any impact on the process or the process pages (I think that, on the whole, the tables should be excised from the Movepool Submissions page as they don't actually relate to it in any real respect).

I'll have the relevant pages written up once the above vote is conducted. You all have 24 hours.

Link to current vote count
 
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paintseagull

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1.
Restricted Move (RM)
Competitive Move (CM)
Generally Competitive Move (GCM)
Universal Competitive Move (UCM)
Very Good Move (VGM)


2.
Modified Proposal
 

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