[QC Ready 2/3] Politoed

Taken over from Swamp-Rocket. All credit to him for the original skeleton.

[Pros]

<ul>
<li>It is the only Pokemon with Drizzle in OU.</li>
<li>Drizzle allows a bunch of Pokemon to become a lot more threatening, even if its temporary.</li>
<li>Politoed has a pretty good supporting and offensive movepool, and a Water-typing is always useful for both.</li>
</ul>

[Cons]

<ul>
<li>The nerf to Drizzle puts a lot of pressure on Politoed to stay alive, as it will run out eventually.</li>
<li>A lack of reliable recovery hurts its chances of staying alive.</li>
<li>Outside of Drizzle, it is outclassed.</li>
</ul>

[Set Recommendations]

<p>Politoed @ Damp Rock / Leftovers<br />
Ability: Drizzle<br />
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD<br />
Bold Nature<br />
- Scald<br />
- Toxic<br />
- Rest / Encore<br />
- Sleep Talk / Perish Song / Protect</p>

<p>As Drizzle no longer activates Rain permanently, keeping Politoed alive is a top priority. This makes defensive Politoed an attractive choice for its toughness and reliability. Scald is the best Water-type STAB Politoed could ask for, dealing respectable damage under rain and threatening opponents even further with the chance of a burn. Toxic gives Politoed a more reliable status to toss around, crippling Pokemon that might not mind a burn from Scald. The remaining moves depend on whether you want to run RestTalk or not. Because the extra three turns provided by the Damp Rock are so important, RestTalk gives Politoed a form of recovery to make up for the loss of Leftovers and heal status. With Leftovers, RestTalk becomes less necessary, and so Politoed has more freedom to run other options. Encore enables Politoed to trap the opponent into a useless move and provide a free switch for a teammate. Perish Song prevents opposing sweepers from setting up on Politoed and sweeping, and it does a good job of forcing switches and putting extra pressure on the opponent. Protect, however, can be used to stall for extra Leftovers recovery and poison or burn damage.</p>

<p>Politoed's Drizzle is an excellent form of support, so great teammates include Pokemon that are able to abuse rain. Swift Swim users such as Kingdra and Kabutops can take advantage of Drizzle to attempt a sweep, while Toxicroak can switch in on Politoed's Grass-type weakness and heal itself with Dry Skin. Politoed can also use some support of its own. Since Politoed has no real recovery move outside of Rest, Wish support from Pokemon such as Blissey, Sylveon, and Chansey will go a long way in keeping Politoed alive. Variants that lack Rest are also more vulnerable to status moves, so Heal Bell and Aromatherapy users such as Blissey and Chansey can also be of assistance. Even RestTalk variants appreciate having their sleep healed earlier without having to wait out Rest's two turns of sleep.</p>

<p>Politoed @ Choice Specs<br />
Ability: Drizzle<br />
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD<br />
Modest Nature<br />
- Hydro Pump<br />
- Ice Beam<br />
- Focus Blast<br />
- Scald / Surf / Hidden Power Grass</p>

<p>The combination of Drizzle and Choice Specs gives Politoed's Water-type attacks an incredible amount of power. Choice Specs Politoed has the raw muscle to threaten every other weather starter in OU, making it harder for opponents to change the weather and end a teammate's sweep. Hydro Pump is Politoed's main weapon, one of the hardest hitting moves in the game thanks to Drizzle. Ice Beam nails Dragon- and Grass-type Pokemon that resist Hydro Pump, while Focus Blast hits Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Abomasnow that may not mind Ice Beam. Scald makes a good option in the last moveslot. While it isn't as powerful as Hydro Pump, it still packs a punch while offering greater reliability a chance to cripple Pokemon such as Ferrothorn with a burn. Surf can also serve as a more reliable alternative to Hydro Pump while offering a bit more power than Scald, which helps Politoed achieve OHKOs and 2HKOs against Pokemon such as Garchomp and Scizor that Scald would miss out on. Hidden Power Grass can also be used to OHKO Gastrodon on the switch, who would otherwise take Politoed's other attacks quite easily.</p>

<p>While the loss of bulk can hurt Politoed's reliability, maximizing Politoed's Speed stat rather than HP can be useful as it enables Politoed to outspeed threats such Adamant Swords Dance Scizor. Since Drizzle is such a powerful ability, Pokemon that are capable of abusing it make great partners. Kingdra and Kabutops are some of the best Swift Swim users in the game, and they can take advantage of the few turns of rain Politoed provides to do extraordinary damage. Hydration Goodra can switch in on Politoed's Electric- and Grass-type weaknesses, and it only needs a single turn of rain to heal itself completely with Rest. Pokemon that can help Politoed get in safely with U-turn, Volt Switch, or Baton Pass are also appreciated since Politoed needs to last as long as possible. Scizor is a good example of this since it can handle Politoed's Grass-type weakness and enable a free switch with a slow U-turn, while Politoed switches into Fire-type attacks aimed at Scizor with ease. Wish and/or Heal Bell support from Pokemon such as Blissey and Sylveon is also helpful in keeping Politoed as healthy as possible.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Goodra with Hydration makes a fantastic answer to Politoed. While Choice Specs-boosted Ice Beam will usually 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Goodra can still switch into anything else and heal Scald burns and Toxic poison with Hydration. Trevenant also handles anything but Hydro Pump and Ice Beam from the Choice Specs set and can heal status with its Lum Berry and Harvest. Toxicroak is immune to Water-type attacks and Toxic while only fearing Choice Specs-boosted Ice Beam. It can even use Politoed's STABs and Drizzle to heal itself. Blissey and Chansey shrug off even Choice Specs-boosted Hydro Pump and can heal any status Politoed can throw at them with Natural Cure or Heal Bell.</p>

<p>There are several other Pokemon that can handle Politoed, albeit not as effectively. Dragalge and Tentacruel have the special bulk to switch into most of Politoed's attacks decently and are immune to Toxic, but neither like to take a Scald burn (Dragalge is also devastated by Ice Beam on the switch). Gastrodon is immune to Politoed's STABs and can wall the Choice Specs set bar Hidden Power Grass, but Toxic from bulky variants cripples it. Abomasnow and Ferrothorn fear Scald burns and Choice Specs-boosted Focus Blast, but otherwise they can switch in and tank Politoed's hits fairly well. Pokemon with powerful Electric- and Grass-type attacks can also force Politoed out or KO altogether. Heliolisk and Rotom-W are great examples since they can easily handle Water-type attacks and threaten Politoed with STAB Electric-type attacks.</p>
 
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While I'm writing this up, I just wanted to pose a question for QC to consider: would Scald deserve a slash (or at least a mention) on the Specs set? It's not too far behind Surf for damage thanks to the XY nerfs, and so it still does a good job of filling the role of a weaker but more reliable STAB. In testing, Scald has been amazing in that fourth slot since it still hits really hard under Rain and has a good chance to screw over many of the Pokemon that can handle the damage with a burn. I personally feel it deserves a slash, but would it at least deserve a mention in the comments?
 

Gary

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While I'm writing this up, I just wanted to pose a question for QC to consider: would Scald deserve a slash (or at least a mention) on the Specs set? It's not too far behind Surf for damage thanks to the XY nerfs, and so it still does a good job of filling the role of a weaker but more reliable STAB. In testing, Scald has been amazing in that fourth slot since it still hits really hard under Rain and has a good chance to screw over many of the Pokemon that can handle the damage with a burn. I personally feel it deserves a slash, but would it at least deserve a mention in the comments?
I personally feel that Scald should be slashed first and Surf slashed after or possibly even ACed. Unless there are important merits that Surf has over Scald such as specific 2HKOes or OHKOes, the chance to burn opposing switch-ins is something that is very hard to pass up on, and it's not worth giving up for the extra 10 BP. Scald makes Specs Politoed a lot more useful in general, and it limits the amount of times its counters can switch into it safely, seeing as the extra residual damage from burn can wear them down a lot faster. Just run a few damage calculations and see if there's anything and Politoed needs to hit harder with Surf, and if there isn't, I see no reason not to use Scald.
 
Okay, so I went through last month's usage stats and calculated both against the Pokemon with at least 5% usage, and here are the instances where Surf > Scald would matter.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 118-140 (38.8 - 46%) -- 23% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan in Rain: 303-357 (86 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO, 87.5% chance after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kangaskhan in Rain: 340-402 (96.5 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO, guaranteed after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 162-192 (40 - 47.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 182-216 (45 - 53.4%) -- 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp in Rain: 288-339 (80.4 - 94.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp in Rain: 324-382 (90.5 - 106.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill in Rain: 151-178 (37.3 - 44%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill in Rain: 170-201 (42 - 49.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Scald vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Scizor in Rain: 298-352 (86.6 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Surf vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Scizor in Rain: 337-397 (97.9 - 115.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Klefki in Rain: 282-333 (88.1 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Klefki in Rain: 318-375 (99.3 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X in Rain: 288-339 (96.6 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X in Rain: 324-382 (108.7 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 146-174 (48.9 - 58.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y in Sun: 168-198 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Espeon in Rain: 262-310 (78.4 - 92.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Espeon in Rain: 295-348 (88.3 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Scald vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados in Rain: 126-148 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Surf vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados in Rain: 141-167 (39.9 - 47.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Scald vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss in Rain: 165-195 (44.2 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Surf vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss in Rain: 186-220 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


There are a handful of times where the extra power of Surf will matter, more so than I thought there would be. However, I can't help but wonder in how many of these cases the extra power will actually matter? For example, Surf may guarantee the 2HKO on 252/0 Rotom-W after Stealth Rock, but Politoed will still be outrun and KO'd without more Spe investment, so it'll be forced out regardless. The potential burn can also be a lot more crippling on some of these examples like Gyarados, Garchomp, and Tyranitar, and the extra damage from the burn can also make up for the 10 point lower BP. This also doesn't take into account the advantage of being able to burn switch-ins like Ferrothorn and Abomasnow with Scald.

If it were up to me, I'd just slash Scald first and move Surf in front HP Grass (maybe remove HP Grass altogether since Gastrodon isn't all that common), but given the aforementioned examples, I'd like to get a second opinion.

EDIT: I went ahead with Gary2346's suggestion and slashed Scald before Surf for now. If anyone has a problem with this, just let me know.
 
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Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
Has anyone tried out Scarf Toed? Perhaps it could get an AC on Specs? The ability to come in and OHKO M-Lucario with a Hydro Pump seems like a pretty good reason to consider it for me, and it gets the added plus of also doing about 60% so to Kangs, which can be enough to RK if Kangs has taken hazard damage or RH recoil or priority attacks.

Then again, I haven't' tried it so I can only theorymon.

Anyway, for the sets in question:

Shouldn't the Specs set have at least enough EVs to outrun 208 speed (for Rotom-W) so you can smack it with Pump / HP Grass before dying?

(also yeah Scald is better than Surf even if you're running things like Scarf Toed since the burn ends up being much more crippling).
 
Scarf Politoed was actually the first set I tried when I built my first XY Rain team a few weeks back, but it's just nowhere near as good as it once was. Back in BW, seeing as how around half of all teams were weatherless and around 20% or so were Rain, all you'd have to do is bring Politoed in at some point and you'd have Rain up for the entire match the majority of the time. This made the Scarf set a lot better since you could maybe revenge kill something here or there, but you didn't really have to worry about keeping Politoed alive. Now that Drizzle is no longer permanent, it's more important than ever to keep Politoed as healthy as possible. In my opinion, the only offensive set that should be in the preview is Choice Specs for a couple of reasons. The raw power of a Rain-boosted Hydro Pump is really hard to pass up on, and it helps break openings up for Swift Swim sweepers like Kingdra and Kabutops. Plus, the HP investment gives Politoed pretty respectable bulk, which is great when it needs to last as long as possible. I also believe it was rejected in Swamp-Rocket's original thread, so there's that.

As for the Spe EVs, you'd need 132 to outpace uninvested Rotom-W. This is a good suggestion, so I'd like QC input on this. My only concern is that trying to go toe-to-toe with Rotom-W is just so risky. The only time it actually helps is if you can catch defensive Rotom-W on the switch with Hydro Pump (or Surf with Stealth Rock down, I suppose) so that you can 2HKO, and even then you have to worry about a speed tie in case they placed their Leftover 4 EVs into Spe. Otherwise, you'll be forced out since Politoed needs to stay alive as long as possible and doesn't need to risk taking a STAB Volt Switch. Plus, the loss of bulk kinda sucks. Still, 0 SpA Rotom-W's Volt Switch is still only taking around half of a 124/0 Politoed's health on average, and the extra speed is also useful for outpacing uninvested Mandibuzz and such.
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
The most common wash set runs max max, but I meant to say 209 speed in my OP to cover 4 spe. I too would like more feedback on that too since it outruns TTar and Mandi and Bisharp as we'll as Wobu and Skarm
 

alexwolf

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A fuckton of Rotom-W use Speed EVs anyway, and the Rotom-W that don't are usually specially defensive, so Specs Politoed shouldn't usually try to outspeed Rotom-W. You can give to the speedy spread an AC mention though (max Speed, to outspeed Adamant Scizor too).
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
Really? Most wash on poke bank ou are 252 / 252 bold defensive. Is it different on pre poke bank?

Anyway, I agree with acing the speedy spread; I thought that was implied XD. Although, I'm a bit wary of hitting cb scizor considering it isn't as common as, say, genesect. Is the lack of bulk for outrunning a Pokemon that isn't as used anymore worth it? I'd rather just hit 210 speed, unless there is a better speedy spread?


Edit: I was referring to PO pokebank but ok I see your point.
 
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alexwolf

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Bold:252/0/252/4/0/0 8.357%

This is the amount of Rotom-W using max HP / max Def+ according to the last month's moveset statistics for PokeBank OU. So yeah, it seems that most Rotom-W are either specially defensive or fast.
 
I've been using this set with success on pokebankou ou:

Politoed @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 HP / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast

With sticky web support and a fully invested neutral nature Politoed is capable of outrunning max nature fully invested base 112 speed pokemon, most notably Mega-Lucario. I use surf and hydro pump alongside eachother because Politoed will generally be spamming water attacks for the most part anyways. I chose surf over scald because I prefer the slight base power increase opposed to the 30% chance burn. When you factor in stab, rain, and specs the difference between 90 and 80 base powers become bigger and bigger. You could also just refer to Agent Gibbs calcs too.

I've noticed that Politoed's biggest niche now as a sweeper is that when it comes in it always takes advantage of the rain, unlike swift swimmers, genies, and keldeo. That sort of gets around the weather nerf because if you want to use another rain sweeper you have to worry about setting up rain first then getting your sweeper in during the short time span. In the rain Politoed is even more powerful (with water attacks) than keldeo outside the rain and I'll demonstrate with these calcs.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom) in Rain: 345-406 (101.1 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 295-348 (86.5 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO


Although keldeo will generally be running neutral natures, not positive so I'll include that too.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD (custom): 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

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