[QC Ready 2/3] Ferrothorn

You said 2HKO; not OHKO.



Based on that specific calcuation, you would want to change the spread to 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 SpDef Impish. Those EVs avoid the OHKO from Alakazam while hitting a jump point in defense.
I'm getting a 6.25% chance for LO Alakazam to OHKO that Ferrothorn with HP Fire on Smogon's damage calculator. 56 SpDef is the minimum to avoid the OHKO from LO variants.

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Hidden Power Fire (Base 60) vs. 252 HP / 48 SpD Ferrothorn: 296-354 (84.09 - 100.56%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Hidden Power Fire (Base 60) vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Ferrothorn: 291-348 (82.67 - 98.86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 

Super Mario Bro

All we ever look for
That's really weird. I calc'd Focus Blast, which should have the exact same base power as 4X SE Hidden Power, and I got 83.52% - 98.86%.

I'd personally go for the bonus point, since that circumstance is extremely situational, but it's ultimately up to the OP.
 
Yeah HP Fire does slightly more (348 damage maximum verses 346 maximum). I assume it's because the extra x2 due to weakness happens at the end of the calc, after a bunch of +2's have taken effect in the middle.
 
Don't mean to be a backseat GP check, but I found a couple of obvious spelling and grammar errors to make their job easier.
Just trying to be helpful so don't hate :)
gonna get da booty

[Pros]

<ul>
<li>Ferrothorn has fantastic bulk on both sides of the spectrum.</li>
<li>Being a Steel and Grass-type gives it many unique resistances</li>
<li>It also has access to both Stealth Rock and Spikes, and its great resistances and bulk, it is a fantastic hazard setter.</li>
<li>Ferrothorn is a decent wall thanks again to the above and its solid base 94 Attack.</li>
</ul>

[Cons]

<ul>
<li>Its quadruple Fire-type weakness which hurts its defensive capabilities. Anything with a Fire-type attack can (1) mame or KO Ferrothorn.</li>
<li>Ferrothorn has no recovery outside of Leech Seed and Leftovers.</li>
<li>Offensively, Grass + Steel isn't that great, (2) it is easily walled by Fire-types and (3) it set-up bait to a variety of Pokemon</li>
</ul>

[Set Recommendations]

<p>Ferrothorn @ Leftovers<br />
Ability: Iron Barbs<br />
EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 SDef <br />
Relaxed nature<br />
IVs: 0 Spe<br />
- Spikes / Stealth Rock<br />
- Leech Seed<br />
- Power Whip / Protect<br />
- Gyro Ball / Thunder Wave</p>

<p>
  • Ferrothorn primarily is a hazard setter. It can set up multiple layers of Spikes or Stealth Rock with ease, thanks to its great bulk and typing.
  • Leech Seed gives Ferrothorn a way to recover health, while also wearing down and crippling threats or forcing switches.
  • Power Whip is Ferrothorn's STAB Grass-type attack of choice, hitting the likes of Tentacruel, Rotom-W, and Gyarados hard.
  • Protect is an option to give Ferrothorn additional healing with Leftovers and Leech Seed, as well as scouting the opponent's moves.
  • Gyro Ball (4) its Ferrothorn's Steel-type stab, hitting fast Pokemon who don't resist it like Dragonite, Gengar, and Crobat.
  • Thunder Wave cripples incoming Pokemon like Lucario, which could otherwise switch in without much of a problem. Generally, Thunder Wave should not be used with Gyro Ball, as the loss of speed from paralysis cuts Gyro Ball's power.
</p>

<p>
  • Stealth Rock can be used over Gyro Ball and Thunder Wave if you need Ferrothorn to run both Spikes and Leech Seed.
  • Protect is a perfectly usable with Power Whip over Gyro Ball and Thunder Wave if you need the Grass-type STAB prefer Protect recovery over the mentioned options.
  • Thunder Wave can be used over Leech Seed as an alternative crippling move or Power Whip.
  • Rocky Helmet is an alternative item choice, wearing down physical attackers nicely with help of Iron Barbs. However, with Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn does not get passive recovery from Leftovers, and is much more dependent on Wish and Leech Seed recovery.
  • Bulldoze is a niche move option to hit opposing Pokemon which resist Gyro Ball and Power Whip, like Magnezone which can otherwise be problematic, trapping in Ferrothorn.
  • If you are running Thunder Wave and need the Steel-type coverage, but don't want to risk a low power Gyro Ball from the speed loss, consider Iron Head.
</p>

<p>
  • 48 Special Defense EVs prevent Life Orb Alakazam from 1HKOing with Hidden Power Fire or Focus Blast, giving decent special bulk. The rest of the EVs maximize physical bulk to take hits from the likes of Belly Drum Azumarill.
  • A Relaxed nature and 0 Speed IVs minimize its speed to maximize Ferrothorn's power with Gyro Ball.
  • If your Ferrothorn is not running Gyro Ball, 31 Speed and an Impish nature is perfectly fine.
</p>

<p>
  • In general Ferrothorn make a great teammate on a variety of teams thanks (5) it its great bulk, resistances, and support with hazards.
  • Ferrothorn's quadrupedal Fire-type weakness can be very problematic, so Ferrothorn needs teammates to deal with Fire-types and Fire-type coverage.
  • Water-types in general make solid partners like Rotom-W, Tentacruel, and Gyarados. Tentacruel (6) and, Gyarados are particularly good partners as they help deal with Ferrothorn's Fighting-type weakness.
  • Tentacruel gets special note as a rapid spinner. Ferrothorn has no recovery and hates taking Spikes damage.
  • Bulky Fairy-types like Syvleon and Florges are great at taking special Fire-type attacks and passing Wish to Ferrothorn, they also bring to the table a useful Fighting-type resistance.
  • Despite the common Fighting-type weakness, Blissey and Tyranitar are great at taking on special Fire-type attacks for Ferrotorn. Tyranitar is also a solid check against Talonflame.
  • Offensively, Dragon-types like Salamence and Dragonite are great partners, they appreciate Ferrothorn's hazard support and can check Fighting and Fire-types.
</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>
  • Fire-types can just roast Ferrothorn, 1KOing it usually, (7) for that they are usually the best counters, resisting its attacks and scaring it out.
  • Talonflame and Volcarona can usually switch in on Ferrothorn with little problem, bar Thunder Wave, and can use it to set up Swords Dance or Quiver Dance, respectively, or just threaten to 1HKO.
  • Fighting-types like Lucario and Conkeldurr take Ferrothorn's hits with ease, and can outright attack it or set up like in Lucario's case. Lucario does not appreciate being paralyzed by Thunder Wave though.
</p>

<p>
  • Aegslash can set up Swords Dance on Ferrothorn with little problem and KO with Sacred Sword.
  • Reuniclus laughs at everything Ferrothorn thanks to Magic Guard and can set up Trick Room or Calm mind on it.
  • Gourgeist takes little from Ferrothorn's moves, is immune to Leech Seed, and roasts it with Fire Blast.
  • Forretress can set up and spin on Ferrothorn with little problem, however, Forretress cannot outlast Ferrothorn with Leech Seed, so one will need an alternative way to actually deal with Ferrothorn its self.
</p>

<p>
  • Pokemon with Fire-type coverage like Tyranitar, Garchomp, Hydregion, and Salamence can KO a weakened Ferrothorn with Fire Blast.
  • Fighting-types like (8) Pargoro and Heracross can check Ferrothorn with powerful STAB Fight-type attacks.
  • Magnezone and Gothitelle can trap and KO Ferrothorn with Hidden Power Fire. Mega-Gengar can KO a weakened Ferrothorn with Focus Blast.
</p>
(1) Spelling error - It's spelled "Maim"
(2) Try making that the contraction "it's" (This one's not really important but imo it looks better.)
(3) The word "it" right there doesn't make sense. You have to do "It's"
(4) Is, not its.
(5) Replace "it its" to "to its"
(6) No comma there
(7) Put an "and" before "for that"
(8) You spelled it wrong. Replace the first R with a N.
 
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Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
Rocky helm should get real mention with the prio spamming and Kangs imo.

Also, does CB Ferro work this gen? I haven't tried it yet but it sounds like it could be great since it can bulldoze Aegislashes and get free Gyros off wheh forcing out Kangs, etc. Still, it could suck. I haven't tried this yet so I don't know if my theorymonning is any accurate atm.
 
I'd just like to mention that Ferro can work with only Leech Seed healing him, but if that's the only recovery then protect is something you want to pack for a free healing turn
 
Well, the boon to Grass (the immunity to Spore) can be exploited to use an anti-lead tactic, especially against Smeargle. A fast U-Turn user (defined here as anything that at least outspeeds Jolly Smeargle) can break a Focus Sash and switch into Ferrothorn who can then set-up Stealth Rock without having a Pokemon crippled by Spore. However, Ferrothorn's speed makes it unable to thwart boost + Pass. Grass Knot Greninja also accomplishes a similar thing" it can break the Sash but either scare Smeargle away or kill it.

I don't play competitive Pokemon that much, so I do not have much experience using Ferrothorn, this generation or last generation. I really did not like it that much, but perhaps I was using it on teams with 2 other Pokemon with Fire weaknesses or I was not familiar with its weaknesses. I suppose it is an excellent choice as a Stealth Rock setter if one does not want to exacerbate a team's Ice or Ground weakness (counting the times Mold Breaker is activated) as that would reduce the attractiveness of Landorus-T, Heatran (if one does not want to use Balloon), and Tyranitar (or the more exotic Empoleon) in team member selection.

Due to its absolutely abysmal speed, a Ferrothorn player has to be wary of Taunt, but the rewards for keeping Rocks up this gen are huge. Also, it can be set-up bait for a Substitute user, making the Sub user impervious to T-Wave and Leech Seed. Due to the latter issue, in a bulky offense team, a player should remember that its primary support role is to set-up Stealth Rock by exploiting its raw statistical bulk and its good typing; although the prospect of a crippling a Pokemon with paralysis or passive damage and healing from Leech Seed may be enticing, Substitute and Taunt would cost you a valuable turn that would have been better spent attacking to break a sub or doing enough damage so the opposing Pokemon can be in KO range for another Pokemon or switching out. It does not seem to be reliable at providing paralysis support or a means of passive damage/healing with Leech Seed.

I like this suggestion:

Maybe talk about Defog ruining all of Ferrothorn's hard work with ease when it comes to entry hazards [spikes in particular] + not really being able to use Spikes if running Defog on your team [maybe SR due to ease of setup though] - also could add Iron Head as an option if running TWave because both together is a bit dumb + more PP for a stally 'mon is particularly good. Perhaps mention Impish if not running Gyro Ball/running TWave + Iron Head in particular if Ferrothorn might want to try its hand at being Jirachi for Halloween this year.

Iron Head is an underestimated option and it has more merit than it seems. I actually thought deeply about this.

For instance the usage stats:

| Leech Seed 86.247% |
| Stealth Rock 64.763% |
| Power Whip 59.973% |
| Gyro Ball 42.890% |
| Thunder Wave 42.556% |
| Spikes 41.572% |
| Protect 40.926% |
| Toxic 5.084% |
| Other 15.989%
Admittedly, it is niche option, but it does come in quite handy in a few situations. To put it briefly, Iron Head is viable option if one is using T-Wave (and additional paralysis support for other team members) and risk averse not to risk a 15% miss with Power Whip to break a Substitute or inflict damage on a Pokemon setting up so it can be in KO range for a revenge killer. Of course, 85% of the time Power Whip is superior, and many times, the target would not be paralyzed. The accuracy issue is bad in protracted battles (as Ferrothorn will need to land multiple hits due to its lack of power) as landing two consecutive hits is a 72% chance, similar to much maligned Focus Blast and lower than Stone Edge and Hydro Pump.

I used paraflinch Jirachi in Gen 5 and it was inferior against walls with Earthquake or resists Iron Head and carry Leftovers. For Ferrothorn, it does not even have Serene Grace and cannot flinch anything with priority.

More specifically, Ferrothorn has a 76 Speed Stat with max speed IVs, neutral nature, and no investment. This would mean that it would outspeed any Pokemon with a Speed Stat of 304 if that Pokemon is paralyzed. The Gen 5 speed tiers table is quite instructive and provide some general benchmarks: paralysis support enables Ferrothorn to outspeed uninvested base 116 Pokemon (Whimscott at 268), Adamant/Modest fully invested base 100s (Volcarona, Salamence, and Mega Kanghaskhan at 299), and barely misses the 306 mark for positive nature based 90s (Lucario).

So, unlike Jirachi, Ferrothorn cannot even flinch many offensive Pokemon (as those above base 100 would likely leverage their Speed Stat and fully invest with a positive nature), but it can potentially score some flinches on defensive Pokemon (whose speeds investments are used to outspeed other walls or tanks). However, those Pokemon are bulky, have passive recovery, and mostly a recovery move. For Sticky Web, the magic speed stat is 200, which corresponds to uninvested base 81 (for example Gyarados at 198).

Ferrothorn is a better donor of paralysis support (if it is provided the opportunity to do so) than a beneficiary of paralysis support. A 47.5% chance of a free turn is a nice bonus for Iron Head, but many things have to work out to receive that bonus, such as first being able to paralyze the target Pokemon (again, this is not that simple due to Ferrothorn's exploitable low speed stat), the target Pokemon being slow enough that Ferrothorn could outspeed, no Sticky Web, and of course, the blessing of the RNG gods.

For Iron Head, I would recommend 36 atk evs to break Garchomp's sub 89 HP sub (from its 357 HP stat).

36 Atk Ferrothorn Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 90-106 (25.2 - 29.6%)
(90, 91, 91, 93, 94, 94, 96, 97, 99, 99, 100, 102, 102, 103, 105, 106)

Garchomp has 108 base HP and 95 defense, and that is some nice natural bulk. Iron Head Ferrothorn could break the subs of most uninvested, non-mega OU offensive Pokemon that don't resist Steel.
 
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Rocky helm should get real mention with the prio spamming and Kangs imo.

Also, does CB Ferro work this gen? I haven't tried it yet but it sounds like it could be great since it can bulldoze Aegislashes and get free Gyros off wheh forcing out Kangs, etc. Still, it could suck. I haven't tried this yet so I don't know if my theorymonning is any accurate atm.
I agree with this so much. I just wanted to drop in and say Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet hard counters Mega Kangaskhan amazingly, giving it "Can't do shit, Cap'n"-syndrome. It will take anything Mega Kangaskhan does like a boss, and will deal 60% damage with Rocky Helmet and Iron Barbs every turn. Although Ghost-types wall Mega Kangaskhan provided no Crunch, Ferrothorn gets rid of that beast all together. This is just my observation from what little Ferrothorn I've been playing lately. Note this doesn't matter for OU anymore since Mega Kangaskhan is banned (i heard that somewhere).

I do find Rocky Helmet hilarious (in general, since no one expects it, and the combination with Iron Barbs does 30% max HP dmg per contact). I will say, though, that Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet has sustain issues, missing out on Leftovers. However, it will work out with item clause to get someone else on your team Leftovers (in my case, Blissey). I am going to experiment having sustain moves on him to see how it works (i.e. Leech Seed and Rest. My set-up was a little more suicidal at first since I knew i wouldn't get the leftovers).
 
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I VMed someone a while back, but apparently something got lost in communication.

I am giving up this analysis, unless you guys are willing to wait over a week for me to test this again, I am currently swamped in finals.
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I VMed someone a while back, but apparently something got lost in communication.

I am giving up this analysis, unless you guys are willing to wait over a week for me to test this again, I am currently swamped in finals.
There is no problem, because as you can tell OU c&c will be half dead until PokeBank comes out anyway.
 

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