Pokémon Diamond, Pearl & Platinum In-game Tier List Discussion

Karxrida

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I see no reason to make a split like that. It over-complicates the list, other tier lists didn't need to do it, and placement already assumes a degree of optimal usage.
 

Codraroll

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If this is correct, then why not have 6 battlers? Or have 7-10 battlers that rotate in and out of the PC?
You get to a point where the advantage in diversity is eaten up by the disadvantage of spreading the limited XP (assumed near-finite without grinding) across several different Pokémon.

Uh, for posting a lot in the tier list threads, you sure seem to lack the grasp on quite a lot of basic concepts.
 
If this is correct, then why not have 6 battlers? Or have 7-10 battlers that rotate in and out of the PC?
Ok I'm going to jump back in here after lurking the past couple of pages because this logic is really bad. It's simply inefficient to have 7-10 battlers since you can only carry any 6 at a time, which leads to spending extra time going back to PCs to rotate new battlers in and splitting experience among so many battlers (leaving you underleveled for late game).

And about your proposal of using 3 battlers and 2 HM slaves, this again is inefficient because you're not using the full capacity of your party. Generally speaking, it is best to work with either 6 battlers (full offensive potential) or 5 battlers with 1 HM Slave (the five battlers get a little more experience with the one slave used to save time when traversing regions like Sinnoh that require lots of HMs; the one slave also keeps you from having to continually go to the PC to get your specific Defog poke, Cut poke, etc which makes the run more efficient.) Yes, 4 Battlers and 2 HM slaves could work especially with how HM heavy Sinnoh is.

I know you mentioned earlier just teaching the "bad HMs" (Rock Smash, Defog, Cut, etc) to your main battlers, but as Codraroll said, this always results in major sacrifice. For example, yes, a Machop you catch for your team can learn Rock Smash, but it would rather learn one good Fighting STAB (maybe two because of accuracy/PP issues with moves like Cross Chop) and coverage options like Payback, Poison Jab, EQ, etc. (Yes, sometimes there is competition for a move like EQ, but the point still stands that coverage is always a better option over something like Rock Smash or Cut). When deleting HMs is a hassle that requires taking time out of your journey to do so (thus reducing efficiency), it is simply better to carry one HM slave that does not need to fight to prevent as much backtracking as possible (also because with only using 5 battlers, there is a little more exp for your 5 battlers to use, resulting in a few extra levels by the end of the game)

E: just sniped lol
 
Yeah I suck. Is there an easier way to learn the basic concepts?Several dozen people just used two entire pages to tell me that using 6 battlers should be avoided at all costs. Are you sure this is right?
I tried playing through Gen 4 with a full team of six once. It's really hard. I'd go with 4 max. With 4, it's just a little bit of extra grinding toward the end. The HM room is helpful. The wonderful thing about Gen 4 is its difficulty, but it also makes it very cruel to you if you try using 6 Pokemon.
 
Yeah I suck. Is there an easier way to learn the basic concepts?Several dozen people just used two entire pages to tell me that using 6 battlers should be avoided at all costs. Are you sure this is right?
No, I said generally 6 battlers or 5 will work. It was just a rule of thumb to try to steer you more towards the concept of efficiency. It's a pokemon game (fairly easy), so you can beat it however you want; however keep in mind that the fewer battlers you use, the more experience is earned for the ones you actually use (so a solo run will result in a poke that has an extremely high level entering the E4 - think around 75 from my past FRLG solo run - whereas using a team of six will prob result in a team around 45-50 without excessive grinding.)

And I don't believe people were trying to say to avoid six pokemon at all costs. Yes, Sinnoh is a much tougher region and the HM Slave is more useful here than other regions, but again you can play however you want. I've always personally preferred to utilize the whole team of 6 (which maximizes battling potential) because I don't mind the slight drop in efficiency that comes from swapping pokes at a PC to get HM pokes, but I recognize the merits of playing with only 5 (or 4) battlers. That being said, I agree with some other users that Bidoof's use as a HM Slave and extremely common availability in multiple routes (which I don't think has been stressed enough) merits an S rank, although I can live with A rank
 

Codraroll

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When do Lickitung and Tropius move up to C for learning a lot of HMs?
To elaborate on what Silver_Lucario42 said, Lickitung and Tropius (and indeed many other good HM slaves) have a problem that set them far apart from Bidoof: the most troubling HMs they could alleviate your team from are required to get to them in the first place.

One could argue that after the (strictly speaking) optional Defog, the worst HMs in DPPt are Rock Smash and Cut. Almost everything that gets Fly can utilize it for a decently powerful STAB, Surf is amazing in general, and Strength is a rather powerful Normal-type move - handy for coverage, if nothing else. Rock Climb belongs in the bad bunch because of its imperfect accuracy, though, but let's focus on the aforementioned two.

Rock Smash and Cut are also the earliest HMs in the game, and are required to proceed beyond Oreburgh City and Eterna City, respectively. This means they have to be put on a team member by that time, and you have to give up two of your moveslots to proceed out of the early-game. The Move Deleter, however, isn't found until Canalave City, which is the 6th Gym. This means that the Pokémon you teach Cut and Rock Smash in the early game will be stuck with those moves until they close in on level 40 (in Platinum, at least - I can't remember the levels in DP off the top of my head), involving at least three Gym battles and a handful of major Team Galactic/Rival battles. Yeah, you can catch Tropius and Lickitung to take over the HM slaving job, but unless you sack the 'mon you've been using until then (in which case you already have a HM slave and wouldn't need Tropius and Lickitung for HM slaving in the first place), the useless moves will be stuck on your more valuable team mates for the first two thirds of the game.

Bidoof, however, is available before every HM. It can learn Rock Smash and Cut right off the bat, from the moment you get the HMs. Whether you want to use it for battle or not, those moves would actually be the strongest options it has available until evolution at level 15, and for a few levels after that (even if you want Headbutt and Rollout, or alternately Water Gun, it has two more moveslots).


Another thing I've been considering is this: What is the task at hand for the Pokémon being tiered? What is the grand purpose you're using them for, and judging their merits after? I think the immediately intuitive answer is "winning a lot of battles reliably and efficiently", but it is not the right one. You pick your Pokémon to help you beat the game. Sure, that involves winning a lot of battles, which is a good metric on a Pokémon's usefulness, but HMs are mandatory.

To use an example: you could put together an amazing team of S- and A-ranked Pokémon, Alakazam/Infernape/Staraptor/Jolteon/Scizor/Gengar, for instance, but they might never get you further than Lake Valor, because you need Surf to get to Canalave, and none of them can learn it. Without Surf, you are stuck. Sure, there are fewer instances of mandatory HM use than there are trainer battles, likely by an order of magnitude and then some, but you need HMs to beat the game.

It would be absurd to knock the Pokémon in the example team down a tier for their collective inability to get you across Route 218, but the example illustrates that the HM users are invaluable to your team. Even if they fail in every battle, they will still perform a very crucial role of bringing your team forward, arguably even more so than the battlers. Even a team of F-rank Pokémon can get you through tough battles by grinding or sheer luck, but no amount of retries can teach your Alakazam to ferry you across water. We certainly don't appreciate the fact, and we can point out the terrible game design all we want (I do all the time!), but without HM users we get nowhere in these games. And Bidoof/Bibarel is the best HM user there is, for the reasons outlined above. It performes an absolutely necessary task better than anything else. Therefore, I can't help but raise my voice for Bidoof to remain in S.
 

Karxrida

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New topic: I think both Gastly and Gastly (Trade) need to drop a tier.

For a long time Gastly is stuck with nothing but weak and/or non-STAB physical moves working off of a horrible Attack stat (and Night Shade) until Shadow Ball, which you can't get until Level 29 at the earliest if you withhold evolution. While you can wait until the Lost Tower to catch one to avoid a terrible early-game, it still only comes as Level 22 at the highest and won't know Hypnosis (important for Diamond and Pearl due to it having higher accuracy than other games) at that point. While this can be fixed with a trip to the Move Relearner, you still need to hunt for Heart Scales.

Furthermore, Gastly cannot do anything productive during one of its theoretically good Gym match-ups (Fantina) when playing Platinum. You definitely won't have Shadow Ball at that point because the fight is earlier, and I don't think non-STAB Sucker Punch nor Payback will do anything of note while it's probably getting OHKO'd by Shadow Claw.

There is admittedly a huge improvement in performance upon getting Shadow Ball and evolving (especially if you get Gengar, which is on par with Alakazam in power) and a fast and accurate Hypnosis is lulzy when playing Diamond and Pearl, but Gastly's dead period lasts for so long (it doesn't get good until mid-game) that I don't think either version can be justified for their current A and B placements.
 
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sin(pi)

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quick note to say I'm catching up on the thread and plan to spend a few hours tomorrow sorting through stuff. stay tuned for updates!
 
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Codraroll

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edit: if anyone knows of a way to play these games without a DS please PM me (don't discuss it in the thread); my DS has broken and I'd like to be able to play while I search for a new one
This is teetering dangerously close to the edge of the forum rules. Officially, all we can say is "Sorry, you're out of luck, these games have only been released for the DS family of game consoles, but they are also playable on 3DS and its siblings".
 

sin(pi)

lucky n bad
(warning: long post)

There's been a few bad/incorrect arguments being made about various things which I'm going to address here. I'll also address various points and nominations in (hopefully) a sensible order. Firstly though, I'd like to ask people to refrain on nominating things they haven't used unless they're obviously out of place - I'm not saying you have to have used a mon to debate other people's nominations, but you should have experience with whatever you're bringing up yourself. Also, tier descriptors are just a guideline, they are not meant as laws to be strictly enforced. I've edited this into the OP.

Onto individual nominations:

Gallade:
Sold, moving it to A.

Croagunk:
I've never used this myself. The big things keeping it out of higher ranks are the late evolution, frailty, and slight 4MSS. After reading BPGXMG's nom I'm actually inclined to move it down to D rather than up to B.

Azelf:
Again, I've not used this (though I plan to on my next playthrough). Theory suggests that it should do well, between coming slightly overlevelled and the fact that NP + a bajillion coverage moves (including good physical options in Pt) allows you to beat pretty much anything (it can hit everything in the league with a 80BP+ super-effective attack except Drapion, Spiritomb (lol), the Fire-types, Lopunny, and Girafarig), though obviously a lot of those moves are competed-for or expensive TMs. It's obviously not S rank because it comes so late and requires TMs for success, but equally I can't see it lower than B given its power, speed and passable bulk (about the same as Infernape but with less weaknesses). Leaving it as is for now, but I invite further discussion on the mon.

Cranidos:
Colonel M said:
I'm also going to step in and disagree with A Cranidos. Unless I am missing something important it has a lot of critical flaws that require TMs and commitment to fix.
It does require TMs for a lot of its movepool, yes, but none of them are super contested other than maybe EQ (and you can go with Dig if need be).
It really is not that good straight out of the fossil (and requires a detour no less) and, due to its Erratic Levelup, has an awkward time leveling up as well. Take Down is basically the only move Cranidos has for a long time, and since it is not STAB and lacks super effective coverage there is a risk of being worn down very quickly. Being rather so-so in Speed sucks too.
There's no detour except the trek underground (is that what you meant?), as everything else you need is on the main journey path. Upon restoration, you immediately have the Rock Tomb TM from the Ravaged Path (only requires Rock Smash) which provides a strong STAB to tide you through the early-mid game (and in fact is plently strong almost up until Rock Slide). The slow speed is not apparent at first, but yeah it does start to show in the latter stages.
Cranidos also has a very shitty gym matchup all around - Crasher Wake and Maylene all have Pokemon Cranidos hates. After that Rampardos has an "okay" performance against Fantina. Rampardos's matchup versus Byron isn't stupendous, kind of a super mixed bag versus Candice, and arguably bad again against Volkner. The Elite 4 Performance is also not that great - Rampardos does okay against Aaron and Flint I guess, but nothing to really write home about. It's terrible against Bertha and might be lucky to smash a hit in Lucian's team. It isn't that great against Cynthia either.

Tl;dr - I feel B Cranidos is more appropriate.
It doesn't have excellent gym matchups, no - though it does perform fairly well against Volkner if it knows Dig/EQ, which it should - but it crushes most of the route trainers very quickly because it OHKOs most of their mons, and also performs very well against Galactic (most mons are weak to Rock/Ground/Psychic coverage), which cannot be ignored. It completely destroys Aaron too (everything literally crumbles to weakness), though the other E4 matchups aren't great (why doesn't Flint have more Fire types?). I'm sorta ambivalent on it, would appreciate 1/2 other points of view on this - slightly leaning towards A.

Gyarados:
OrangeGuru said:
Let's not let this continued Magikarp discussion derail the thread.
discussion of tier placement isn't derailing the ingame tiers thread ;)

This is never going to be S but I think we're past that discussion. Based on everything that's been discussed I think I will keep/move it to A in both games (not entirely sure why it was placed differently but hey). I think its excellent typing+bulk combined with Intimidate (which is really incredible especially if paired with other users) has been undersold, and while it has 2 weak/weakish spots (pre-Dragon Rage/Bite and post-Maylene through to Aqua Tail), it is very good for much of the rest of the game. Also this:
sumwun said:
By the time dragon rage's usefulness wears off, the move relearner is already accessible and ready to teach thrash, so I don't think it's necessary to use any TMs on Gyarados.
HMs (a precursor to Bibarel talk):
Before we talk about Bibarel's rank, I think we have to briefly touch upon the viabilities of the HMs as battling moves (and also their necessity in the field).

Surf and Fly are obviously good attacks, but Strength is also a pretty good STAB for the mid-game (and in DP you get it in the Lost Tower, just before Solaceon). Rock Climb is bad because you get it too late, Cut sucks, Rock Smash has marginal utility in smashing up Roark's, err, rocks, Waterfall is again nice but comes too late to be a primary attack on anything, and we don't talk about Defog.

Bibarel:
Bibarel has unparalleled utility, I think we can all agree on this. Being incredibly easy to find at no opportunity cost (looking at you, Piplup) and learning 6/8 HMs is really helpful, especially because it comes before said HMs (Tropius).

I will expand on this after I come back from holiday but I am sorta leaning towards dropping it - it realistically does close to nothing outside of the HM compression - sure, you can use it as a battler, but if we're ranking it based on its battling capabilities it's more on par with the likes of Geodude - and while that compression is incredible, I'm on the fence as to whether it's worth keeping it in S. It's not mandatory by any means. Biggest reason to keep it in S for me is that, if we were to suggest the ultimate efficiency team for DP(Pt), it would be Chimchar, Starly, Bidoof, cover legend, plus 2-3 filler (Abra if you can trade?).

Side note - does anyone else catch a bidoof for early game, and a Bibarel for late game? I'd rather spend the P200 on a Pokeball than train up Bidoof to level 15, and you can even avoid that if you find one in the Marsh (necessary to get Defog in DP, which is always nice to have).

Piplup:
Should this be S? Looking at it strictly as a battler, the answer to me is no - it has a long stretch of mediocrity from around Oreburgh until level 25 (probably between Solaceon and Veilstone). As a utility mon, though, it does bring a lot - it can learn all HMs bar Fly (though you probably want to avoid most of them), and you only need Surf to function (though Ice Beam or Flash Cannon is also advisable), meaning you have the moveslot space. Ultimately I don't think it should be S because you do appreciate the flexibility of moveslots early-mid game (things like Peck and Metal Claw can be useful) which means that the HM access isn't overly critical, and in my mind, S ranks should rarely (if ever) not be useful (Chimchar and Starly don't have any real stretches where they don't pull their weight, Abra only really has its time as an Abra but this can be alleviated by trading a level 15 Machop, which is really the best way to go about it). Piplup has that awful stretch before it learns Bubblebeam where your strongest STAB is 20BP Bubble, meaning you don't even sweep parts of route 217 despite the rain.



Writeups
I'd like to get started on a few of these, for mons in the top ranks on which we've come to a consensus. These are as follows (I've erred on the side of excess, so please do bring up any you disagree with):

DP:
S
Abra (Trade)
Chimchar
Starly

A
Abra (No trade)
Budew
Buizel
Dialga
Palkia
Piplup
Shinx
Turtwig
Zubat


Pt:
S
Abra (Trade)
Chimchar
Starly

A
Abra (No trade)
Budew
Buizel
Eevee (Jolteon)
Giratina
Piplup
Scyther (Trade)
Shinx
Turtwig
Zubat

The 3 S ranks listed are pretty much set in stone I think (not completely sure on Abra bc I've never been able to use trade mons, but I trust that it's good based on how good Kadabra was) so they can get writeups for sure.


Discussion Slate:
Finally, I want to direct the discussion a little better now. We're doing things a bit haphazardly, which was fine for the earlier stages; but now that we have a fairly good framework, I'd like to really nail down the tiers. So I'd like to focus on the current A ranks, plus Bidoof. If you think there's something which isn't in A (or S) but should be, bring that up too! One thing I do want to ask is whether the cover legends are fine in A, or if they should be lower/higher?


OP PROBABLY WON'T BE UPDATED UNTIL SEPTEMBER 7TH BECAUSE I'M GOING ON HOLIDAY. PESTER ME AFTER THAT BUT NOT BEFORE
 

Karxrida

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Giratina is only slightly weaker than Infernape (100/100 vs. 104/104), and Base 90 Speed is still decently fast for in-game purposes.

It admittedly will lack EVs due to late acquisition, but you're still underselling of a bit.
 
By "relatively low", I meant worse than Dialga and Palkia. I don't think it's fair to compare to Infernape because Giratina comes so much later.
I think it's fair to compare their base stats because that is just a raw number (to which you did call its attack stats and speed "relatively low"). Now in terms of viability, yeah Infernape is much higher because that factors in availability. Personally, I've never used Giratina (or any legendary - personal rule of mine), so I have nothing else to add here, just thought that logic was a little weak
 

Inspirited

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The dragons all handle the endgame similarly in my experience with Palkia being worse against Volkner but having highish PP / HM use Surf to work with and having no real weakness problems even if it doesn't invalidate as much of the endgame as the other two. Dialga has some issues with certain Pokemon on Route 223 and Victory Road while also having trouble with Torterra / Infernape Barry and most of the Elite four. It does sit on Volkner and the many late game Pokemon that can't touch it. Dialga also has a very special nuke button and the endgame experience will change depending on how it is managed. Giratina confortably handles Volkner outside of Luxray's Crunch, crushes Route 223 and most of Victory Road, and doesn't care about most of the Elite Four outside of weaker coverage moves and Flint's Houndoom. Barry's Snorlax, potential Empoleon, and certain weaker coverage moves give Giratina trouble and Lucian's Bronzong will eat up ghost move PP if it keeps on getting hit into potion range. All three of them are rather weak against Cynthia with Palkia being the better dragon against her team.

Dialga has no real nuetral matchups (it will have to switch more than the other two) and a nuke button, Palkia has the least matchup problems but will require the most potions, and Giratina is somewhere in the middle and will have the most PP issues of the three while also being the worst dragon against steel types by far.

If any of then are to be dropped, it should probably be Dialga, but I think they are fine where they are now.
 
Okay a few questions:

in sin(pi)'s recent post of the consensus, why is Gible not a consensus A? It literally comes with Earthquake and Dragon Rage and only stagnates for a short bit in the mid-late game, but it is just so immediately powerful when you get it I can't imagine it being worse than Zubat

also with regards to the tiering criteria in the OP, just the wording of F tier seems a little off (though this is perhaps a bit trivial).
F-Tier: Reserved for Pokémon who possess the worst efficiency of those available in Pokémon Platinum irrespective of their availability. These Pokémon outright lose a lot of 1v1 matchups at like levels unless they are assisted with significant item support."
Like the problem with Pokemon like Heracross, Munchlax, and Mesprit isn't that they'd lose matchups, it IS their availability, so saying they're in F tier because they suck at battles ignoring their availability is kinda misleading imo. (Also why is Hippopotas not deemed like completely inefficient to obtain either)

With regard to Azelf, I definitely feel like it should remain in A tier. Availability isn't much of an issue when you compare it to B tier pokemon that arrive earlier, because Azelf requires very little detour and is usable IMMEDIATELY without babying. Regarding matchups, it is about as good as the cover dragons since although it doesn't have as stellar a typing or nukes to use, Nasty Plot + coverage is just that potent.

Something I think could go down is Sneasel. The thing about it to me is that Dark+Ice coverage, maybe plus Brick Break really just isn't that good matchup wise, and it is just so so fragile. Plus, you basically have to hunt for Shards to get Ice Punch for it to be any good, and even then Night Slash and Ice Punch aren't terribly strong. I think it should drop to C tier. C tier Pokemon aren't even that inefficient in this game (Meditite, Machop, Magmar) and Sneasel definitely seems more at home there.

Overall the composition of the S and A tiers seem pretty spot on though.
 
By the way, Piplup's HM pool is absolutely not enough to raise it to S tier because it need to evolve in order to learn rock smash.
I mean if you chose Piplup as your one and only starter, then I'm assuming you would train it until it evolves (does anyone choose not to use the starter?), so that shouldn't really be held against it. The opportunity cost though should be held against it
 
Piplup evolves at level 16, and it's probably not going to reach it before the first gym unless the player either grinds for it or neglects its teammates. Rock smash is immediately needed after the first gym, so relying on Piplup for HMs makes the first part of the game a little harder. On the other hand, I don't see opportunity cost as a big problem, as there are plenty of Pokemon (like Buizel) that do most of the things Empoleon does.

By the way, Ralts (Gallade) is still listed as B on the OP.
Yeah, but this is why opportunity cost is a big deal (I'm not sure you got what I was trying to say by bringing up OC). Because you can only have 1 starter (without trading), if you choose Piplup, then you forego Chimchar (I think we would agree chimchar is the best starter overall). And as you said, other water-types like Buizel can do the same things Empoleon would do, so again the opportunity cost is greater (you prob wouldn't use both buizel and piplup on the same team; and there aren't many fire types in DP to compete with Chimchar anyways)
 

Karxrida

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You're right, it's not.

There is, however, an opportunity cost in using Piplup as an HM Slave when it's better as a battler, which we've already gone over.
 
Even then, I think Chimchar is just decidedly better than Empoleon. Fire/Fighting STAB is enough to bulldoze most of the game neutrally just for how powerful their individual neutral coverage is, and Infernape's offenses are sufficient for its high BP moves and speed. Having used Empoleon twice for Gen 4 runs, it's nowhere near as efficient as Chimchar. Its STAB coverage is significantly worse, it's weaker than anything in S-Rank on top of being slower, so it takes more hits and needs more healing items. Infernape even gets Nasty Plot for Special sets to further permit it to bulldoze through battles.

I don't think we factor "X being good means Y is bad", but I do think opportunity cost is something to note when the two are mutually exclusive as is the case of the Starters, as well as using it for HMs over battling which it's simply more effective in. And the fact remains that Empoleon simply doesn't perform on the level of the S-Rank battlers, it's not very good with HMs to try the Bidoof clause, and it's not good enough as a mix to move up on those terms in combination.
 
Even then, I think Chimchar is just decidedly better than Empoleon. Fire/Fighting STAB is enough to bulldoze most of the game neutrally just for how powerful their individual neutral coverage is, and Infernape's offenses are sufficient for its high BP moves and speed. Having used Empoleon twice for Gen 4 runs, it's nowhere near as efficient as Chimchar. Its STAB coverage is significantly worse, it's weaker than anything in S-Rank on top of being slower, so it takes more hits and needs more healing items. Infernape even gets Nasty Plot for Special sets to further permit it to bulldoze through battles.

I don't think we factor "X being good means Y is bad", but I do think opportunity cost is something to note when the two are mutually exclusive as is the case of the Starters, as well as using it for HMs over battling which it's simply more effective in. And the fact remains that Empoleon simply doesn't perform on the level of the S-Rank battlers, it's not very good with HMs to try the Bidoof clause, and it's not good enough as a mix to move up on those terms in combination.
Exactly. I'm not trying to argue the "X is better than y" point. I'm saying opportunity cost should play a large factor in where pokes are ranked on the VR. For the starters, you only get one of them, so there is an implicit cost of not being able to use the others. If you're planning a team in advance, this matters greatly. If you want to use Buizel for example, this doesn't prevent you from using Tentacool (although not recommended) or any other poke, whereas choosing Piplup prevents you from using the S-ranked Chimchar. This should negatively impact both Piplup and Turtwig (unless I was mistaken that Chimchar is far and above the best starter option). If this logic still goes against the VR policy, then I apologize, but I firmly believe OC should be a large factor in tiering decisions here
 

Merritt

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Exactly. I'm not trying to argue the "X is better than y" point. I'm saying opportunity cost should play a large factor in where pokes are ranked on the VR. For the starters, you only get one of them, so there is an implicit cost of not being able to use the others. If you're planning a team in advance, this matters greatly. If you want to use Buizel for example, this doesn't prevent you from using Tentacool (although not recommended) or any other poke, whereas choosing Piplup prevents you from using the S-ranked Chimchar. This should negatively impact both Piplup and Turtwig (unless I was mistaken that Chimchar is far and above the best starter option). If this logic still goes against the VR policy, then I apologize, but I firmly believe OC should be a large factor in tiering decisions here
Speaking strictly from a policy perspective, I disagree with the logic you outline here for one main reason - the goal of these lists is to tier and offer a sense of how well each pokemon performs in the games from a moderately efficient perspective. While your logic isn't completely without merit since there should be an awareness that you can only get one starter it also adds a layer of heavy subjectivity to a list like this because how much should that opportunity cost count against a pokemon?

Because Chimchar is not only the best starter, but also one of the best pokemon in the entire game, should Piplup and Turtwig drop down to F because they're a flat out detriment due to depriving you of one of the most efficient pokemon? Should they go to B, C, D, or E because they still have some use but deprive you of the efficiency of Chimchar? If so, how far down should they drop? Should Chimchar be dropped to A because even though it's the best starter it does deprive you of the use of two otherwise A rank pokemon by choosing it?

Overall it's just simpler and provides a better resource by judging how well a pokemon performs from an efficiency standpoint assuming that you intend to use it. This allows for taking into account some factors like difficulty in acquisition or evolution, but also takes out the less objective factors like opportunity cost that we'd argue about endlessly.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
The fact that you have to evolve Kricketot to make it a marginally passable HM Slave is a huge turnoff when it's such a garbage Pokémon. I don't care if it's only 4 levels, have you see that thing's stats and movepool? (lol Bide is your only attacking option before evolution unless you're playing Platinum.)

There's no way it's worthy of B. The notion that it's better than Machop (no trade) and Geodude (no trade) is also baffling when they have some battle prowess and learn the same number of HMs.
 
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Speaking strictly from a policy perspective, I disagree with the logic you outline here for one main reason - the goal of these lists is to tier and offer a sense of how well each pokemon performs in the games from a moderately efficient perspective. While your logic isn't completely without merit since there should be an awareness that you can only get one starter it also adds a layer of heavy subjectivity to a list like this because how much should that opportunity cost count against a pokemon?

Because Chimchar is not only the best starter, but also one of the best pokemon in the entire game, should Piplup and Turtwig drop down to F because they're a flat out detriment due to depriving you of one of the most efficient pokemon? Should they go to B, C, D, or E because they still have some use but deprive you of the efficiency of Chimchar? If so, how far down should they drop? Should Chimchar be dropped to A because even though it's the best starter it does deprive you of the use of two otherwise A rank pokemon by choosing it?

Overall it's just simpler and provides a better resource by judging how well a pokemon performs from an efficiency standpoint assuming that you intend to use it. This allows for taking into account some factors like difficulty in acquisition or evolution, but also takes out the less objective factors like opportunity cost that we'd argue about endlessly.
The last thing I would say about this is I don't think it would be that subjective to compare each starter's use. If we truly think the other two starters are A on their own, then they probably shouldn't drop because it's not that far of a drop from Chimchar. I wouldn't advocate for them dropping to D or E unless they were really bad in comparison to the one great starter (Chimchar). And I don't think the logic about Chimchar dropping to A because you are deprived of the other two starters in terribly great because again you wouldn't be passing up both of the other starters (only one because that's all you're allowed); and if Chimchar is the best starter then there wouldn't be much of an opportunity cost at all from using him (aside from not having a super early grass or water type). But alright I'll drop it then since it seems "we'd argue about [it] endlessly." I just want to see OC matter when ranking limited pokes like starters
 
The fact that you have to evolve Kricketot to make it a marginally passable HM Slave is a huge turnoff when it's such a garbage Pokémon. I don't care if it's only 4 levels, have you see that thing's stats and movepool? (lol Bide is your only attacking option before evolution unless you're playing Platinum.)

There's no way it's worthy of B. The notion that it's better than Machop (no trade) and Geodude (no trade) is also baffling when they have some battle prowess and learn the same number of HMs.
Kricketune can learn cut, which is useful for a longer time than stuff like strength and rock climb are. 4 levels of switch training isn't painful either. Bidoof takes 8 levels of mostly switch training to evolve, and Bidoof is somehow good enough for S tier.
Edit: Never mind. You were right. I'm changing the nomination to C.
I'm going to try to explain why I think stuff like Azelf and Giratina should drop. I'm very aware that I'm oversimplifying everything, but I think this is enough to get my point across.
An evolution family is tiered based on how much it helps during the run. Imagine that, due to availability, Azelf is only usable for the last 1/4 of the run, but is somehow versatile enough to one-shot everything. Also, a typical C tier evolution family is usable for the last 1/2 of the run, but can only one-shot 1/2 of its opponents. In this hypothetical case, Azelf and that C tier family get the same amount of opportunity to help with the run, so by this logic, they should be the same tier.
One of this idea's flaws is the concept that a Pokemon eats up more experience when obtained earlier, but that flaw alone isn't enough to raise Azelf and Giratina all the way to A tier.
Is there or is there not something wrong with this argument?

By the way, when Eevee (Espeon) is used on an efficient run, around when should it evolve?
 
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