Big Pathfinder Viva Mafia (Smogon Thread) - Wolf Meta (UncleSam and Yeti win) - postgame P4, 91-92

Haruno

Skadi :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I'm happy that warriors lost for falling or the Nigerian prince.

I still disagree since the odds of utilizing a freelancer alliance is fucking disastrous rofl. See me in official 2 where I was outright willing to get my admittedly incompetent faction leader lynxhed. Now imagine me having to manage 20+ players all at once all of which are easy backstabbing scum.

Using diamond dust on om room was retarded my b.

Hitmonleet is even more infuriating than twin.

Rip undead, I talked more with them in two cycles than I talked with my actual faction in the entirety of the game. Also didn't know team dead talk was a thing whoops.

You're all dumb for not lunching osmium xd will post better thoughts later
 

Haruno

Skadi :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
why do people want to kill my neutral and not the other :thonking:
Sorry :( I'll take the responsibility for that since I thought after the cycle I would've gotten a second wish from you, it'd be better to kill you off than risk letting other players get a wish....

This backfired when in my conceit to hide my alias I let aska kill you as opposed to me being the one originally to kill you.
 

Dogfish44

You can call me Jiggly
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributor
why do people want to kill my neutral and not the other :thonking:
I'm not going to lie, after our chat I basically said in the Conspirator room, ''Alright, does anyone know which faction Pidge is trying to mole info from?".

And now to see if I can figure out *who* I should've Rogue Killed C5 to avoid a most irritating death.

Despite having a lack of info, I had an absolute blast this game. Ton of interesting mechanics in play. And I feel absolutely no shame in the Conspirator decision to kill Jalmont (With two separate kills), then revive and recruit him. Even if it was more than a touch unfortunate that night got revealed to us all.
 
Pidge sorry about that I pushed the Church to kill you as well. I could not believe that such a win con existed (and was shocked when you died and the truth was there).
 

UncleSam

Leading this village
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I disagree with a few points in postgame but overall this game was excellent, great job A_G and Agape!

First thing I disagree with (and DLE mentioned this to me) is that the wolves were a bit too strong. Honestly I think we had the worst chances in this game by a longshot in comparison to any of the factions, and arguably only a slightly better chance than Pidge. The only reason we won was a combination of luck with the faction I claimed to and helped getting ganged up on by the others, randomly stealing the Onyx early, and staying constantly quite active and managing every faction (I talked to every faction quite a bit, just never had anything real to offer anyone but the Warriors until the lategame).

Sorry to the Warriors, I really did try to help you guys but seven deaths in three cycles or whatever in the early game is just too much to deal with considering your terrible lategame roles. Paperblade and Slim Guldo claimed alias to me and I gave their alias to Walrein and never intended to target them negatively, but both got randed the cycle they got recruited X_X sorry guys I really wanted to reward your trust in me with at least a real faction that I would do my best to help until the last second, which is precisely what I did.

I think the Dragon roles are also immensely weak to Medium or Strong roleblocks and / or redirects; two Medium roleblocks in the absence of the Onyx leaves the wolves as effectively two allied vanillagers with no voting capabilities at all and only limited protections. Meanwhile, wolves are great lynchbait in multifaction games where they let faction 'cooperate' together during the day while plotting nighttime vengeance on one another.

Second thing I disagree with is that it was a mistake for the Warriors to pass me all those items. The only item of real value they passed me was the Quarterstaff, which granted would've helped them a fair bit but which I used to their benefit practically every cycle anyway. The Warriors got destroyed in the early cycles mostly by sheer dumb luck, and most of the time a faction that happens to just dies and goes AFK. Instead, the Warriors (as an earlygame faction I might add) fought their way back through the Undead / Conspirators / Church mega alliance to become serious lategame players, and weren't that far from winning if Osmium got randed by one or two more Undead kills.

Speaking of the Undead, they were by far the most dangerous faction - but I knew as early as C4 we couldn't simply off them, because they were A. relatively well-hidden and B. seemingly impossible to kill (seriously the first 3-4 of our kills against the Undead failed lmao). We ended up massacring Church C4 and THEN going after the Undead. By the way that double lynch on Tantalum was always going through because if I hadn't been told expressly by Agape that mayor vote was taken into account, no way in hell I ever would've unvoted because I didn't give a rip whether Californium survived but desperately wanted the Undead lynched + massacred that cycle (thus why I strong killed Thallium and dropped what I think ended up being the fourth kill that cycle onto Rutherfordium lmao).

I think Haruno played well but lied a bit too much, seemingly a pattern with him. I have no clue how anyone could trust him or work with him in a multifaction game at this point because he lies so habitually (like aska but without the AFKs). With that being said he is really solid in his deductions and overall level of play, and his role (every cycle Strong BG was such a GD pain due to the role mechanics this game).

Twin played great, though it wasn't obvious to me until the very end whether he actually believed I wasn't wolf or if he was just claiming to believe I wasn't so I would keep helping him. I didn't care and I doubt he did much either since it didn't impact his chances of victory.

Hitmonleet played well but got a bit unlucky at the end in terms of having the Dickens role be the one to target him, thus 'proving' my role claim to him and sealing the game's fate. Maybe if he had seen Osmium's role instead he could've done something. Also shade lived to endgame ayyy

DLE and Blazade and Moody played really well as a team, definitely the best group of faction leaders imo and definitely the scariest; just lacked a little bit of firepower + the fact your strong kill 'failed' rather than 'popped BPV' is a hard distinction to make. The difference in this game may well have been that I tried killing Thallium twice while the Undead only tried for Osmium once, getting scared off after the first fail.

I do think the game suffered a bit in going from 50 -> 40 but not much, many of the eliminated roles were among the worst imo. Unfortunate that pancake's role was so useless in the final version though lol.

Anyway I really liked the mechanics of this game and the role that items and roles played together in forming cohesive strategies. A few things I'd change (most of which the hosts already said) but overall really well done! I think a few different factions played well enough to win and as is usual, the luckiest of the factions that played among the best ended up winning. That is perhaps multifaction's greatest downfall, but as multifactions go this one ranks among my favorites.
 

Yeti

dark saturday
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
I apologize to the hosts for idling as The Wolf but I had requested recruiting faction or FA cause Sam could do all the work while I idled for thesis, seemed like the game needed warm bodies but I wasn't able to commit any time to it and just straight couldn't come on discord for like 5 days in a row. on the plus side my thesis footage looks amazingly beautiful so ayy! then when i was freed up sam told me to idle so when people (sorry hitmonleet) came pming me i wouldnt have to answer accurately from his web of lies he'd concocted to everyone itg lel

sam def was helping the warriors a lot. our subforum is some top kek i recommend a read

ty 2 my bf 4 carry
 

Pidge

('◇')
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
I don't really blame you guys for wanting to kill me, given the nature of neutrals and how they have been in past games. However, it's strange Warriors didn't think that way when dealing with US.

In practise he did start with that plan, but contacted fake faction leaders and wasn’t as active in spreading his claim around as needed. some factions by having granted them wishes.
I did send a very detailed claim to LN, UncleSam, and Walrein on cycle 0, and even talked to some of them on Discord. Haruno eventually approached me on Discord after seeing my post on cycle 0 too. I got Blazade to work with me on Cycle 2. I had a contact with every faction, except the mages; I didn't really believe Hitmonleet to be their leader. I contacted some non-leaders like LW and zorbees, but that didn't really slow me down. Unfortunately, UnlceSam ignored my PM. He probably thought I was making it up or something.
 
Second thing I disagree with is that it was a mistake for the Warriors to pass me all those items. The only item of real value they passed me was the Quarterstaff, which granted would've helped them a fair bit but which I used to their benefit practically every cycle anyway. The Warriors got destroyed in the early cycles mostly by sheer dumb luck, and most of the time a faction that happens to just dies and goes AFK. Instead, the Warriors (as an earlygame faction I might add) fought their way back through the Undead / Conspirators / Church mega alliance to become serious lategame players, and weren't that far from winning if Osmium got randed by one or two more Undead kills.
Our reasoning was:
1) They were the faction (other than you) that most needed to grab items (and find a way to ID them)
2) They were passing their kill items to you. Though you did pass some back, so... hmm.
 

UncleSam

Leading this village
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Pidge I ignored because I didn't really believe you. You could've wished us an onyx which would've been really good but we probably would've ended up killing you for the lpv tbqh
 
Hitmonleet is even more infuriating than twin.

You're all dumb for not lunching osmium xd will post better thoughts later
Aww... :(

Ok, in all seriousness, I think it was just bad luck that I ended up getting the Dickens PM. Ironic, considering the great luck I had with recruiting. Honestly, everyone played well, and I had fun.

I might type up something bigger and more comprehensive soon.
 

Da Letter El

Officially internet famous
is a Community Leader Alumnus
Agreeing with sam, wolves weren't too strong. People just need to realize that putting off dealing with wolves until later is a really bad idea, because wolves have mechanisms to punish you for putting stuff like that off (because otherwise they're unwinnable roles). I'll get more of my thoughts together a bit later.
 
Yeah and you gotta understand that when we create a second onyx (which was objectively wrong) and they somehow rand steal it the one cycle it was possible early on it turns out that matters when medium actions get blocked all game.

I'd argue that perhaps they could have been tuned better for the 50 -> 40 shift in a similar way to the necromancer where info about them is easier to get to account for a shorter game but they were by no stretch a fundamentally poor inclusion or too much for us to handle
 

UncleSam

Leading this village
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Did you guys absorb the Onyx when it was given to the Necromancer?

Also King_ started with the Onyx so did you simply wish for one from Pidge? Also did you get the original Onyx eventually or no? Still a bit confused how that all went down I just know that we randstole it and probably wouldn't have gotten it if we hadn't randstolen it when we did.
 
Did you guys absorb the Onyx when it was given to the Necromancer?

Also King_ started with the Onyx so did you simply wish for one from Pidge? Also did you get the original Onyx eventually or no? Still a bit confused how that all went down I just know that we randstole it and probably wouldn't have gotten it if we hadn't randstolen it when we did.
We knew about king's onyx and killed him for it, using it on DLE next cycle.

We wished for a second from pidge (instead of an animate action as I would later realize was possible) and that very cycle you snatched it because apparently onyx is considered power 0 so it was the weakest item in RODAN's invetory
 

Andy Snype

Mr. Music
I legit thought Sam was gonna be too lazy to mole me

Oops
i'm sorry what game have you been in where sam is not moling someone or trying to lead

Did you guys absorb the Onyx when it was given to the Necromancer?

Also King_ started with the Onyx so did you simply wish for one from Pidge? Also did you get the original Onyx eventually or no? Still a bit confused how that all went down I just know that we randstole it and probably wouldn't have gotten it if we hadn't randstolen it when we did.
King started with an Onyx. I didnt know about the full extents of King's role so we killed him off to scavenge it rather than recruit him since we figured the cap was important. I felt so awful keeping my mouth shut about it in discord when you sounded so dejected you got killed c1.

I was under the assumption that you and Pidge were working together because given the WC pidge gave us, (I don't recall if I ever iterated it through my team) but I had a hunch it was bad news if pidge worked with you early because he would have to defend the weaker factions to get a wish off for him to be able to win. When RODAN got the Onyx and lost it i thought pidge was never intending to really win with us and assumed pidge was working with conspirators/warriors and you were at first with warriors.
 

Da Letter El

Officially internet famous
is a Community Leader Alumnus
Quick aside: The only reason Pidge died was because we were convinced that he had told Sam/Yeti about the Onyx and I was confused by how theft priority worked (I assumed that order of preferences for weak theft went recent, then power as a tiebreaker; not weakest as priority/"recent" means simply on a given cycle -- still not sure which it is), meaning that since scavenges should resolve after other item receipt, that it meant Yeti specified to steal the Onyx with a medium theft (since rodan receives items "after" people die), meaning she needed to know it was being created. That led to the assumption that Pidge/Sam/Yeti were working together, so Conspirators/Undead/Church all agreed to try to kill among the aliases we suspected/knew to be those three.
 

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