ORAS UU: A Last Look (Currently on break for SUMO)

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Approved by Hogg and King UU, but I really hope Hamhamhamham approves as well.




Better artwork to come... And no I haven't read Christian's short story myself. :(

With Pokémon Sun and Moon only a month away (HYPE!), now is your chance to still make the most out of your ORAS UU experience before the Sun and Moon hype takes over full control of your body.

Welcome to A Last Look! Our goal is to try out and give certain Pokémon that are currently overlooked in UU a final chance to find out if we've been sleeping on a gem (or two) throughout this generation, before it's too late. This project combines elements of both the Dark Horse project and Research Week to close out this generation on a positive note. :)

Throughout the upcoming weeks leading up to the Sun and Moon release we're going to try out several Pokémon that don't quite make it into UU based on usage, but could very much be worth a slot on your team. This week we're looking into...





Gastrodon! This thing is scary. UU has some seriously good Grass-types that threaten it hugely, while it also faces stiff competition as a bulky Water-type. However, Gastrodon has a unique combination of traits that set it apart. Gastrodon is a Water/Ground-type that possesses both a Water-type immunity (unlike Swampert) and a set-up move to become very threatening (unlike Seismitoed). It in essence is a Water Absorb Quagsire with better stats. There's significant drawbacks, obviously. Celebi running rampant in UU doesn't help at all (Zoroark might aide by trapping it!), while it's also very prone to Toxic. If there's no Toxic to be used, or a Grass-type in sight, though, this thing's threat level cannot be slept on. So when you try it out, make sure to cover it's weakness during your team building process. Other than that, good luck and have fun! :D

Now, with this week's Pokémon chosen, this is what we expect from (and offer) you this week:
Before you can post a truly informed opinion on a Pokémon's uses and roles in the UU metagame, it's important to have tried it out first. We highly recommend to not only play games on the UU ladder, but to also save and share battle replays that show off Gastrodon's role and effectiveness on your team, but also UU as a whole. This way you not only get to show off the team you've crafted around Gastrodon, but it also gives the other participants an insight as to which direction you decided to take your team, which could inspire new ideas and interesting discussion points. Speaking of which...

After building a team and playing games with it we'd want you to come back to this thread to talk to us about your experiences. What did you think of Gastrodon in UU? How did you go about building your team? Was your team successful on the UU ladder? If not, in what way did it struggle to perform? How did you work around Gastrodon's flaws? These examples are interesting thinking points we'd love to see some insight on. Don't forget, we're going to have different people participating, so there inevitably will be different results, too. We strongly encourage discussing your findings with the other participants, since it might help you see your findings in a different perspective, which in turn might help you learn from your experiences, or helps someone else learn from theirs.

For the competitively driven among you, there will also be a ladder ranking aspect to the project, which is optional and by no means mandatory. For those of you interested you can ladder up using a "LL2 (insert name here)" alt (LL2 Tony, for example) and we'll check which LL2 alt is ranked highest at the end of the week. The highest ranked LL2 at the end of the week will be inducted into the Hall of Fame.

Important! We would very much still like to see discussion and thoughts on the Pokémon we're featuring even if you're aiming to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. This means you'll only be able to be inducted if you also post about your experiences on the ladder in the thread; having the highest ranked LL2 alt isn't enough to be inducted into the Hall of Fame.

This project aims for an interesting and collaborative discussion, not an argument about whether something's better or worse, or right or wrong. We expect 'shit posting' to be kept to a minimum and to maintain a healthy, friendly and productive atmosphere as we look into ORAS UU one last time together before we dive into Pokémon Sun and Moon. :D

Now then, without further ado, go out and have fun exploring Gastrodon's potential in UU this week. We look forward to hearing about your findings!
 
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Tirishia

Banned deucer.
Hey so I hit 1400s and I want to build a new team. Nothing really bad with this team, but I just want to try something new. Here are my results:
upload_2016-10-22_13-41-22.png
2 of those losses were disconnects. There was a giant lad spike yesterday and I was doing two battles at once.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-461920689 battle to 1400s. Virizion gets 5 kills.
upload_2016-10-22_13-39-11.png

I lost one pokemon on the last battle because rolls. I tried really hard to 6-0 the entire tour lol.

upload_2016-10-22_13-44-0.png (click image for import)
Virizion @ Choice Band
Ability: Justified
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge / Facade
- X-Scissor / Zen Headbutt
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade

At first I was going to go with mixed virizion with focus blast and giga drain, but then i was like, why not just go full physical and hit things? So I went with banded often flopping stone edge with facade since virizion takes quite a few scalds. I was able to one shot offensive crobat with banded stone edge along with chandelure. X scissor is strictly for celebi. If you look at my team, it is kind unnecessary but I used it anyway. When using this set, I did not feel like Virizion was a burden. I really liked having it on my team. The immediate power output is a lot nicer than trying to set up an swords dance and going from there. Also, don't underestimate justified. It is very useful coupled with choice band as you can take dark pulses and hit things without killing your life total.

The team worked great. The only change I made was volt switch on galvantula to hp ice because of gligar, nidos, and flygon. I could have possible changed roar to ice punch on mega aggron. The slowking aggron mandibuzz core is really hard to break. Galcantula is a bit of a misfit, but webs are nice with a team this slow. The offensive electric attacks helped break up water types. Chandelure was the thing winning most of my games. With flame body, I can break through porygon2, and punish u-turn. Not a super fun team to play, but it is pretty good... at least at low ladder.
 

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Hey uu-ers ^^

Nice team Tirishia i like your originality and i think it's effective i like it!

I did my best with Virizion too. Some things i liked about this pokemon :
- obvious synergy with top threats like Entei, Pursuit Aerodactyl etc
- cute lure to psychic types like Celebi, Cresselia etc who annoys bulky offense (with X-Scissor)
- really good typing
- it fares actually pretty nice versus most threats in the meta?? either by typing advantage or just outspeeding a lot

Things i didnt like :
- shitty physical bulk means that you're weaker to priority which is bad for a sweeper and some ground types like Krookodile or mega Swampert are dealing a lot of damage to it
- walled by common threats depending the coverage
- the power isnt fantastic... like Cobalion
- scald burns. It's just really weak without Life Orb and Sylveon doesnt like to have to Heal Bell all the time
I can propose this not very original team which is built around the idea of Virizion pulling off a sweep :


Virizion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
- X-Scissor
- Swords Dance

Entei @ Choice Band
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Flare Blitz
- Stone Edge
- Extreme Speed

Aerodactyl @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Aerial Ace
- Earthquake
- Pursuit

Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Haze
- Toxic
- Rapid Spin

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Scald
- Roar

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Heal Bell
- Wish
- Protect


  • Virizion with Swords Dance Life Orb for power and X-Scissor to bust through bulky psychic types who are harder to pursuit with mega Aerodactyl
  • Aerodactyl is supposed to pursuit some pokemon that could stop its sweep : Beedrill, Crobat, mega Sceptile, Tornadus, Chandelure, Espeon, scarfed Darmanitan, Heliolisk etc
  • Entei is supposed to give it set up opportunities since it draws in bulky waters easily. Bit of physical wallbreaking and utility with a priority move and wow switching which is always nice
  • The rest is supposed to help keep these three alive by either sending wishes, removing status like burns, setting Stealth Rock and hazard control
Note : Tentacruel has enough speed to outspeed neutral Mamoswine, Nidoqueen and mega Swampert. I thought it was necessary considering that Virizion (and honestly the whole team) doesnt fare too good against these.




Good luck to the ladderers.
 
Hey everyone. I just hit 1600 on the ladder with my LL1 account and I thought I'd share my thoughts so far.

First of all, here's the team I made with Virizion:



Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Roar

Steelix @ Steelixite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Toxic

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bug Bite
- Heavy Slam
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin

Hydreigon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- U-turn
- Flamethrower

Spiritomb @ Leftovers
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Pursuit
- Substitute
- Will-O-Wisp

Virizion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- Swords Dance
- Zen Headbutt


As should be obvious at a glance, this team is built around hazard stacking with Suicune and Virizion as wincons. Suicune is an excellent wincon vs. all playstyles while Virizion is a decent wincon vs. stall. Since both wincons force switches I thought they would pair well with hazard stack. Scarf Hydreigon helps with speed control and revenge killing. For Virizion's coverage move I chose Zen Headbutt to hit Crobat (originally it was X-Scissor but for some reason everyone on the ladder hard switches Crobat into Virizion and I wanted to take advantage of that.)

Impressions:

Virizion is largely outclassed in ORAS UU. The CM set is a waste of a slot in a tier where Celebi and Shaymin are available. The SD set has a small niche via it's typing (a physical grass in the tier where the most common physical wall = Suicune is definitely nice -- as is a physical set up sweeper that can OHKO Quagsire) with a host of other flaws which hold it back from being good.

It is, for example, completely hard walled by Cresselia. It's choice of coverage move leaves it hard walled by either Celebi or Crobat. Forretress is very annoying to get past. Poor physical bulk and a good-but-not-great speed tier make it easily revenged by a whole host of Pokémon. Most standard ORAS UU teams have multiple checks or counters to Virizion, and usually your opponent only needs to preserve one to avoid getting swept. These crippling flaws mean that playing around Virizion is simple.

It's not easy to pressure Virizion's checks and counters simply because there's so many of them. The only way to make Virizion function with any reliability is to build the entire team around helping it, which simply isn't worth it. There are many other better Pokémon to build around.

Although I tried to get Virizion to put in work, after I escaped low ladder it rarely did -- even vs. stall. In most games Virizion was dead weight. I would not recommend using Virizion on any serious team.
 
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At first I was going to go with mixed virizion with focus blast and giga drain, but then i was like, why not just go full physical and hit things? So I went with banded often flopping stone edge with facade since virizion takes quite a few scalds. I was able to one shot offensive crobat with banded stone edge along with chandelure. X scissor is strictly for celebi. If you look at my team, it is kind unnecessary but I used it anyway. When using this set, I did not feel like Virizion was a burden. I really liked having it on my team. The immediate power output is a lot nicer than trying to set up an swords dance and going from there. Also, don't underestimate justified. It is very useful coupled with choice band as you can take dark pulses and hit things without killing your life total.

The team worked great. The only change I made was volt switch on galvantula to hp ice because of gligar, nidos, and flygon. I could have possible changed roar to ice punch on mega aggron. The slowking aggron mandibuzz core is really hard to break. Galcantula is a bit of a misfit, but webs are nice with a team this slow. The offensive electric attacks helped break up water types. Chandelure was the thing winning most of my games. With flame body, I can break through porygon2, and punish u-turn. Not a super fun team to play, but it is pretty good... at least at low ladder.
Hmm. Choice Band is a really interesting take on Virizion. I know Kushalos rates CB Virizion in RU as well. It's Dark-type resistance, naturally great bulk and Justified supports a hit-and-run type set like CB nicely too so I definitely like the thinking there. Thank you for participating and smart call on not just mindlessly using a set-up type set when there's other options like CB available as well! :D

I did my best with Virizion too. Some things i liked about this pokemon :
- obvious synergy with top threats like Entei, Pursuit Aerodactyl etc
- cute lure to psychic types like Celebi, Cresselia etc who annoys bulky offense (with X-Scissor)
- really good typing
- it fares actually pretty nice versus most threats in the meta?? either by typing advantage or just outspeeding a lot

Things i didnt like :
- shitty physical bulk means that you're weaker to priority which is bad for a sweeper and some ground types like Krookodile or mega Swampert are dealing a lot of damage to it
- walled by common threats depending the coverage
- the power isnt fantastic... like Cobalion
- scald burns. It's just really weak without Life Orb and Sylveon doesnt like to have to Heal Bell all the time

  • Virizion with Swords Dance Life Orb for power and X-Scissor to bust through bulky psychic types who are harder to pursuit with mega Aerodactyl
  • Aerodactyl is supposed to pursuit some pokemon that could stop its sweep : Beedrill, Crobat, mega Sceptile, Tornadus, Chandelure, Espeon, scarfed Darmanitan, Heliolisk etc
  • Entei is supposed to give it set up opportunities since it draws in bulky waters easily. Bit of physical wallbreaking and utility with a priority move and wow switching which is always nice
  • The rest is supposed to help keep these three alive by either sending wishes, removing status like burns, setting Stealth Rock and hazard control
Pursuit Aerodactyl and Entei seem like excellent choices to support your SD Virizion as a win-condition. Aerodactyl does indeed trap a good amount of Virizion's checks, while Life Orb and Swords Dance help break through slower opposition. As for Entei, it's not only great in it's own right, but it also gives Virizion the opportunity to switch in by luring in bulky Water-types, like you said (I'd be wary of Scald since you're not Lum Berry, but you do have cleric Sylveon as well). As for the downsides, I can empathize with all of them for sure. Having to selectively be unable to break through certain stuff based on your coverage move of choice is kind of shitty, but that's also where team support comes in to be fair. I can relate to the lack of power bit especially. Knowing you're gonna miss out on the KO on Cresselia with +4 X-Scissor AND Life Orb is straight up depressing (+4 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion X-Scissor vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 76.6 - 90.2%). D: Thanks for participating and especially for wording your support choices so nicely. It's nice to see you logically tried to give it the best chance at succeeding possible instead of just throwing it on a team. Don't worry about the team looking or being standard btw, you logically tried to support Virizion well and I think you did so excellently. :D
First of all, here's the team I made with Virizion:



As should be obvious at a glance, this team is built around hazard stacking with Suicune and Virizion as wincons. Suicune is an excellent wincon vs. all playstyles while Virizion is a decent wincon vs. stall. Since both wincons force switches I thought they would pair well with hazard stack. Scarf Hydreigon helps with speed control and revenge killing. For Virizion's coverage move I chose Zen Headbutt to hit Crobat (originally it was X-Scissor but for some reason everyone on the ladder hard switches Crobat into Virizion and I wanted to take advantage of that.)

Impressions:

Virizion is largely outclassed in ORAS UU. The CM set is a waste of a slot in a tier where Celebi and Shaymin are available. The SD set has a small niche via it's typing (a physical grass in the tier where the most common physical wall = Suicune is definitely nice -- as is a physical set up sweeper that can OHKO Quagsire) with a host of other flaws which hold it back from being good.

It is, for example, completely hard walled by Cresselia. It's choice of coverage move leaves it hard walled by either Celebi or Crobat. Forretress is very annoying to get past. Poor physical bulk and a good-but-not-great speed tier make it easily revenged by a whole host of Pokémon. Most standard ORAS UU teams have multiple checks or counters to Virizion, and usually your opponent only needs to preserve one to avoid getting swept. These crippling flaws mean that playing around Virizion is simple.

It's not easy to pressure Virizion's checks and counters simply because there's so many of them. The only way to make Virizion function with any reliability is to build the entire team around helping it, which simply isn't worth it. There are many other better Pokémon to build around.

Although I tried to get Virizion to put in work, after I escaped low ladder it rarely did -- even vs. stall. In most games Virizion was dead weight. I would not recommend using Virizion on any serious team.
Ah, this may sound weird, but thanks for the negative review. :D It's nice to see some difference of opinion and ladder experiences, plus it's perfectly logical for different players to feel differently about a certain Pokemon. As for your impressions specifically, I can empathize for sure, although not completely. I don't think the CM set is a waste by definition, as it has similarly niche advantages over Celebi and Shaymin as special attacking Grass-types as the SD set does over Cobalion, for example. Having STAB Focus Blast to blow past bulky Steel-types like Mega Aggron is pretty neat for a special attacking Grass-type, for example, while the loss of Psychic-type STAB isn't as huge considering a large percentage of the elite UU Poison-types either outspeed and check Virizion anyway (Mega Beedrill and Scarf Nidoking for example) or don't actually resist Giga Drain (Tentacruel / Nidoking / Nidoqueen). I am by no means saying it's anywhere near Celebi's level, I'm merely saying Celebi's existence doesn't invalidate the set by default, in my opinion. "Most standard ORAS UU teams have multiple checks or counters to Virizion, and usually your opponent only needs to preserve one to avoid getting swept." This I've experienced myself as well. Especially Mega Aerodactyl / Crobat builds that also have a great defensive switch-in like Cresselia or Reuniclus are horrible for Virizion builds to face. However, (too) many Pokemon are hard walled by Cresselia and this is something I feel is important to take into account when team building as well. It's more likely than not barely gonna help Virizion's match-up, though. Thanks for participating and thanks for the honest and not sugar coated post, but mostly for explaining why. Just calling something bad is completely pointless, while your post might provide insight as to why Virizion isn't UU at the moment. Thanks again! :D
 
i dont have to write any papers now so i can post this

not gonna lie in the 80ish games i played, viriz didn't do a whole lot for me. like yandaud said viriz p much stands out by virtue of its typing and speed (tying with nape is a little eh given its growing popularity, but 108 is still really good in this metagame). the problem with it is that there are just some matchups where it's dead weight, and it usually isn't putting in obscene amounts of work in most games. most of the time it's good to pressure fat waters / bliss etc to get momentum in your favor, but it very rarely wins games on its own, and some games it's just a liability overall

thanks to Accelgor dodmen GrilledClawitzer LeoLancaster and anyone else who i cant name off the top of my head for helping me with suggestin me edits on the teams. these squads are all really similar but with edits here and there


prayer bead (Hydreigon) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Roost
- Dark Pulse
- Iron Tail

mothership (Aerodactyl-Mega) @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Wing Attack
- Earthquake
- Pursuit

magellan (Virizion) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
- X-Scissor

parasol (Slowking) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Slack Off

glo format (Sylveon) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Hyper Voice
- Shadow Ball
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power [Fire]

plated (Nidoqueen) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 180 HP / 252 SpA / 76 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam


with viriz you basically need to have stuff that can fuck with the things i mentioned above. lo hydrei + maero came to mind since you cover things like steelblades, bee, bat, etc. while also giving resistances to common offensive types. giving me secondary checks to stuff like krook is nice because in most cases ill want to keep viriz healthy for other stuff later on in the game. i originally had roost on aero, but im weak enough to bat bee celebi chand etc enough that roost isnt worth it. iron tail isnt needed but its nice for fucking with sylveon and whimsi. slowking is a nice teammate here since with x-scissor getting rid of celebi, slowking has a lot more breathing room to sweep, giving me a secondary answer to cune, an answer to cress, and checking stuff like cobalion and the nidos. sylv is the typical fighting / dragon answer that breaks down common viriz answers, and nido is just a general sr setter that gives a tspike + vswitch immune as well.


tenfold (Hydreigon) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Roost
- Dark Pulse
- Taunt

bird brain (Aerodactyl-Mega) @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Wing Attack
- Earthquake
- Pursuit

landroll (Virizion) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
- X-Scissor

mud tim (Swampert) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 240 Def / 20 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Roar

tangle (Sylveon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell

row boat (Metagross) @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Thunder Punch
- Earthquake
- Zen Headbutt


a more balanced variant i guess. better equipped to take on offensive teams, since i put pdef sylv over specs, as scarf hera / mien raped my team late game before hand. pert + meta > king + nido because metagross was more reliable as a fairy check, while pert retains the volt immunity, although it doesnt absorb tspikes (still threatens them though). metagross makes iron tail on hydrei kind of useless so taunt fucks around with hazard setters and such.


tripod (Hydreigon) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Roost
- Dark Pulse
- Iron Tail

jawbreaker (Aerodactyl-Mega) @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Wing Attack
- Earthquake
- Pursuit

duck sauce (Virizion) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
- X-Scissor

cotton candy (Sylveon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell

jasie (Nidoqueen) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 180 HP / 252 SpA / 76 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam

chilly wind (Suicune) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 240 HP / 208 Def / 60 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Scald


went with a standard build pretty much, cune appreciates the celebi removal like slowking does but is better at checking certain stuff, doesnt have the knock weakness. hbell sylv + crocune is nice because being able to get back up to full with cune and then hbelling with sylv is not difficult, seeing as sylv comes in on like half the tier, including bu conk which cune is set up bait for.

Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Roost
- Dark Pulse
- Iron Tail

Aerodactyl-Mega @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Wing Attack
- Earthquake
- Pursuit

Virizion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt

Sylveon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Hyper Voice
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Psyshock

Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 180 HP / 252 SpA / 76 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump
- Signal Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]


a more offensive approach to the same team, accelgor (i think, it mightve been dod lol) gave me the idea of sbeam cune as another lure for celebi, and offensive cune in general is pretty underrated right now. tailwind can be an option over one of the coverage moves, but i feel like i need both, especially hp elec since gyara is a bitch. with sbeam on cune i didnt really need x-scissor on viriz so i just put zhb on it to fuck with crobat switch ins, also makes viriz not useless vs hera.

e: on this i think you can afford to go scarf hydrei but its up to you


Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Roost
- Dark Pulse
- Iron Tail

Aerodactyl-Mega @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Wing Attack
- Earthquake
- Pursuit

Virizion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
- X-Scissor

Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect
- Heal Bell

Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 180 HP / 252 SpA / 76 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam

Milotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover
- Scald
- Haze
- Toxic


i like to think this is probably the best version, as milotic deals with the same stuff that the other waters were meant to, but actually deals with the offensive water wincons like gatr and gyarados, although crawdaunt is a little bit more annoying. also nice to fuck with fat wincons like slowking and cress..milotic isnt as good as it used to be but after playing around with it in this meta i think it fits well on balance teams, especially on this kind of build. im considering using a fatter variant of queen with tspikes to pressure more defensive builds but it doesn't matter too much i think

didn't really save any replays, but there weren't a lot of games where viriz really did a stellar job at things. idk maybe im just ragging on it too much. i wouldnt say that its not worth using on a serious team, cause it definitely is, it's just that it faces too much competition from other stuff in the tier, especially conk which has guts to fuck with scald anyway. i think the circumstances where you would really wanna use this are a little specific for my tastes and in any case i would rather use something else that adds more to the table

thanks for reading and thanks tony for making this a thing

e: i'd just like to add that probably the other way to utilize virizion effectively is to use the innovative specially defensive set, crafted by DaSpoofy
 
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not gonna lie in the 80ish games i played, viriz didn't do a whole lot for me. like yandaud said viriz p much stands out by virtue of its typing and speed (tying with nape is a little eh given its growing popularity, but 108 is still really good in this metagame). the problem with it is that there are just some matchups where it's dead weight, and it usually isn't putting in obscene amounts of work in most games. most of the time it's good to pressure fat waters / bliss etc to get momentum in your favor, but it very rarely wins games on its own, and some games it's just a liability overall



with viriz you basically need to have stuff that can fuck with the things i mentioned above. lo hydrei + maero came to mind since you cover things like steelblades, bee, bat, etc. while also giving resistances to common offensive types. giving me secondary checks to stuff like krook is nice because in most cases ill want to keep viriz healthy for other stuff later on in the game. i originally had roost on aero, but im weak enough to bat bee celebi chand etc enough that roost isnt worth it. iron tail isnt needed but its nice for fucking with sylveon and whimsi. slowking is a nice teammate here since with x-scissor getting rid of celebi, slowking has a lot more breathing room to sweep, giving me a secondary answer to cune, an answer to cress, and checking stuff like cobalion and the nidos. sylv is the typical fighting / dragon answer that breaks down common viriz answers, and nido is just a general sr setter that gives a tspike + vswitch immune as well.





a more balanced variant i guess. better equipped to take on offensive teams, since i put pdef sylv over specs, as scarf hera / mien raped my team late game before hand. pert + meta > king + nido because metagross was more reliable as a fairy check, while pert retains the volt immunity, although it doesnt absorb tspikes (still threatens them though). metagross makes iron tail on hydrei kind of useless so taunt fucks around with hazard setters and such.





went with a standard build pretty much, cune appreciates the celebi removal like slowking does but is better at checking certain stuff, doesnt have the knock weakness. hbell sylv + crocune is nice because being able to get back up to full with cune and then hbelling with sylv is not difficult, seeing as sylv comes in on like half the tier, including bu conk which cune is set up bait for.


Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Roost
- Dark Pulse
- Iron Tail

Aerodactyl-Mega @ Aerodactylite
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Wing Attack
- Earthquake
- Pursuit

Virizion @ Lum Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Leaf Blade
- Close Combat
- Zen Headbutt

Sylveon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Hyper Voice
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Psyshock

Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 180 HP / 252 SpA / 76 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam

Suicune @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA
- Calm Mind
- Hydro Pump
- Signal Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]


a more offensive approach to the same team, accelgor (i think, it mightve been dod lol) gave me the idea of sbeam cune as another lure for celebi, and offensive cune in general is pretty underrated right now. tailwind can be an option over one of the coverage moves, but i feel like i need both, especially hp elec since gyara is a bitch. with sbeam on cune i didnt really need x-scissor on viriz so i just put zhb on it to fuck with crobat switch ins, also makes viriz not useless vs hera. on this i think you can afford to go scarf hydrei but its up to you.







i like to think this is probably the best version, as milotic deals with the same stuff that the other waters were meant to, but actually deals with the offensive water wincons like gatr and gyarados, although crawdaunt is a little bit more annoying. also nice to fuck with fat wincons like slowking and cress..milotic isnt as good as it used to be but after playing around with it in this meta i think it fits well on balance teams, especially on this kind of build. im considering using a fatter variant of queen with tspikes to pressure more defensive builds but it doesn't matter too much i think

didn't really save any replays, but there weren't a lot of games where viriz really did a stellar job at things. idk maybe im just ragging on it too much. i wouldnt say that its not worth using on a serious team, cause it definitely is, it's just that it faces too much competition from other stuff in the tier, especially conk which has guts to fuck with scald anyway. i think the circumstances where you would really wanna use this are a little specific for my tastes and in any case i would rather use something else that adds more to the table

thanks for reading and thanks tony for making this a thing

e: i'd just like to add that probably the other way to utilize virizion effectively is to use the innovative specially defensive set, crafted by DaSpoofy
Damn. You really went it for this! :D I see you were set on using the Virizion, Mega Aerodactyl, Hydreigon and Sylveon spine, but messed around with multiple variants and styles. I really appreciate that you didn't just call it a day after building but actually tried to see what you thought worked best. I also really how you not only tried to support Virizion with your team mates, but also your team mates with Virizion. X-Scissor Virizion + Slowking is a really smart combination, for example. As for the Milotic version, I can see why you liked it best. The Crawdaunt weakness that comes with it also kept in check nicely with Hydreigon and Virizion being nice offensive checks to it. All-in-all I don't have much to add since you covered everything very nicely yourself as is. Thank you for participating and I hope to see you post again in future weeks! :D

As for this first week however, we're done with exploring Virizion and moving on to our next project. Before I do that I wanna congratulate Finding True Love on winning the first ladder challenge and his induction to Hall of Fame. Another thing I want to touch on is those of you that also laddered and gathered thoughts and views on Virizion but didn't have the time to post yet. I'm giving you till Sunday evening to do so. Starting Monday the discussion should exclusively be about...

Zoroark! I have updated the OP with all the information you need (and will continue to do so, so that you don't have to look for scattered posts) for this week. I'm looking particularly forward to this one since there's so many options and ways to about it. Good luck and mostly have fun!
 
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