On The Radar

[Orga777]

This meta is toxic as heck early on right now. Team building is a chore with all these broken mons running around right now. Aegislash is one of my all time favorite pokemon, but it is beyond broken. There is no such thing as a team that can't run this. Heck, every team SHOULD run this, and if you don't the team is not optimized. Only Bisharp is a good check, but it gets blown back by fighting coverage if Aegi is running it. Yeah it checks all the good new mons, but that is hardly a reason to have it in the meta. Get rid of it.

Ditto fot Genesect. I don't understand how it keeps coming back each gen when Bug/Steel is one of the best defensive typings in the game. Its coverage is insane, and with all the new fairies running around, will be even more damaging to the meta. This mon is and will always be broken until they make 7 more Heatrans.

That brings us to the Broken Beasts... Personally, I think almost all of them are going to have an adverse effect on the meta eventually outside Nihilego and Guzzlord. However, I will save this spot for the two that are serious problems right now. Pheromosa and Kartana. Phero is ultra brain dead the champion. Come in, and U-Turn to counters till it can spam HJK. Pair this with Bisharp or Weavile and Tapu Koko or Xurkitree, and those "counters" just die. When Aegislash is inevitably banished where he belongs, this thing gets even nastier. This thing is a toxic dump waiting to explode. Getting rid of it at the same time as Aegi is probably ideal.

Now Kartana is just stupid. Sits there with its dumb as hell high attack with crazy good coverage and decent speed and starts murdering everything. After a single boost not a whole lot is going to stop it. It breaks down walls so fast that a defensive core on a team has limited switch in ability. If this thing has a problem, it can just switch out itself into its help that handle all its checks, which are not a whole lot due to its fantastic coverage options.

When these four are removed from the meta, I think it will start settling nicely, and we can slowly see how the meta will evolve properly.

 

[Mr. Goodra]

Kartana currently isn't even close to Phermosa's level of bs. 109 speed whilst good is not exceptional (110 was the magic number in ORAS and I doubt SM will have a lower ideal, especially with Greninja back and Tapu Koko looking to be the new pivot of choice). An incredible base 181 attack is mitigated by poor STAB and generally low BP moves. Whilst it has some decent physical bulk, strong grass/steel defensive typing is rendered void on the special side as it gets slaughtered even by resisted hits. Definitely a low priority mon if even suspect worthy at all.

 

[Orga777]

Kartana currently isn't even close to Phermosa's level of bs. 109 speed whilst good is not exceptional (110 was the magic number in ORAS and I doubt SM will have a lower ideal, especially with Greninja back and Tapu Koko looking to be the new pivot of choice). An incredible base 181 attack is mitigated by poor STAB and generally low BP moves. Whilst it has some decent physical bulk, strong grass/steel defensive typing is rendered void on the special side as it gets slaughtered even by resisted hits. Definitely a low priority mon if even suspect worthy at all.

They aren't even that low for BP. Most of the moves are 80, which is around Gengar levels of power. Gengar was a very good mon for a long time, and us able to still punch holes in teams with even less power than Kartana has, which certainly mitigates the "weak" BP of the moves. When your weakest attack is STAB BP 70 off a base 180+ attack stat, how weak is it really? And while it just misses the 110 mark, 109 is around Keldeo level, which still saw a crap ton of play. And unlike Keldeo, who is limited completely with its coverage options, Kartana is certainly not. It hits so much harder than base Keldeo, that a Scarf set isn't even out of the question. Especially when it starts gaining boosts from kills because of its dumb ability. Sure it has bad SpD, but I don't even think that is such a big deal in this case. A support set with Defog isn't out of the question, either, since it can easily do whatever it wants against physical mons that are not fire types, or against Stall which just dies to this thing.

 

[PimpParasect]

Kartana is way too easily shutdown to be that much of a problem. There are so many revenge killers that a 6-0 Kartana sweep is more of a battle spot dream. He's more of a late game cleaner IMO rather than a kill the entire team and then clean up single handedly. I wouldn't consider switching it into support a good excuse for banning it since that pretty much describes every setup glass cannon in this game. At least kartana has no speed boosting tools unless it locks into a choiced move with scarf, if you death foddered your kartana revenge kill at some point thats an issue on you, not kartana. The keldeo / Kartana comparison is meh, keldeo nothing can switch into due to scald anyway, and it can just setup a sub and spam calm minds for bonus bulk, Kartana has to rely on beast boost to get anything done or setup a sword's dance only to waste a turn and get shutdown.

Once aegislash is out of the picture, Kartana will start to lose more of its allies to cover for it and it'll be more exposed to latios and stuff.

lol wanna see something cute?

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 331-391 (127.3 - 150.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 322-379 (123.8 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I didn't believe those calcs myself, its just that shit on the special side. It can revenge kill, but as long as you have anything special above the 109 speed tier (there is a lot of and megakazam is a big figure to point at) it struggles pretty badly.

The only issue is it fucks with stall teams but everything does this generation.

---

I kinda feel bullshitted by a Heatran who Z-solarbeamed my Rotom-w and then my entire momentum team fell apart with a core member to deal with landorus and heatran himself taken down.. Just thought I'd mention how much bullshit Z-moves in general are as lures since Z-conversion was the talk lately. Honestly, I don't think any pokemon should be banned or balanced due to Z-moves, its either the Z-moves or the pokemon that got to go, and I see a lot more issues with Z-moves as a whole... the standards of balance are high this generation.

 

[Ren Yukine]

Honestly I don't think any of these mons need to be quickbanned. I'm just throwing my opinion out there but I don't see why complex bans shouldn't be a thing, an understandable council should know what should and shouldn't be banned and I get why they have that rule. But honestly I would like to see stuff like blaze blaziken, and ash greninja in the game (though I didn't have a problem with it even in oras). Why I also wanted some sorta middle ground for aegislash, that thing is so unique and has a cool design, I don't want to see it gone from ou but I want the whole kings shield ban to be an option. I don't think saying smeargle isn't op with the move is kinda bullshit cause smeargle is complete ass no matter what move it has and it was made that way on purpose. But I'm not saying unban darkrai now or anything. But banning kings shield in ou is pretty much the same as banning drizzle in lower tiers. But we should have more options than just getting rid of a mon. I think it's a bit early to be doing anything though at this point.

I will say though I think phero, hoopa, and genesect are kinda boring and I honestly don't mind seeing them gone. Not because I don't want to have to build around them. I just don't want a boring meta.

 

[KztxL7]

Complex Banning is absolutely dumb unless you're dealing with a scenario like Baton Pass (and even then) because you're going out of your way to keep something in a tier that really doesn't deserve to be there because its clearly overboard.

I'm quite sure Smogon could eventually complex ban most of the things in Ubers to knock them down to OU if we wanted but that's stupid.

 

[Leica]

Kartana is way too easily shutdown to be that much of a problem. There are so many revenge killers that a 6-0 Kartana sweep is more of a battle spot dream. He's more of a late game cleaner IMO rather than a kill the entire team and then clean up single handedly. I wouldn't consider switching it into support a good excuse for banning it since that pretty much describes every setup glass cannon in this game. At least kartana has no speed boosting tools unless it locks into a choiced move with scarf, if you death foddered your kartana revenge kill at some point thats an issue on you, not kartana. The keldeo / Kartana comparison is meh, keldeo nothing can switch into due to scald anyway, and it can just setup a sub and spam calm minds for bonus bulk, Kartana has to rely on beast boost to get anything done or setup a sword's dance only to waste a turn and get shutdown.

Once aegislash is out of the picture, Kartana will start to lose more of its allies to cover for it and it'll be more exposed to latios and stuff.

lol wanna see something cute?

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 331-391 (127.3 - 150.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kartana: 322-379 (123.8 - 145.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I didn't believe those calcs myself, its just that shit on the special side. It can revenge kill, but as long as you have anything special above the 109 speed tier (there is a lot of and megakazam is a big figure to point at) it struggles pretty badly.

The only issue is it fucks with stall teams but everything does this generation.

---

I kinda feel bullshitted by a Heatran who Z-solarbeamed my Rotom-w and then my entire momentum team fell apart with a core member to deal with landorus and heatran himself taken down.. Just thought I'd mention how much bullshit Z-moves in general are as lures since Z-conversion was the talk lately. Honestly, I don't think any pokemon should be banned or balanced due to Z-moves, its either the Z-moves or the pokemon that got to go, and I see a lot more issues with Z-moves as a whole... the standards of balance are high this generation.

It was always capable of doing this though? It's just more effective now.

 

[PimpParasect]

It was always capable of doing this though? It's just more effective now.

Except it needed a power herb to do it and it was only a 120 BP

Instead its a power herb + a damage boost that nets a ohko so you lack any form of reaction or momentum.

0 SpA Heatran Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 204-242 (67.1 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - You're given an opportunity to save your check to other threats or wish pass it

0 SpA Heatran Solar Beam (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 306-362 (100.6 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO - Its gone, nothing you can do. 6-5 game

This is assuming rotom doesn't run SpD EVs or Heatran isn't running SpA EVs but even then its pretty much a dead weight rotom.

Heatran is one of many examples, there are many lures in this game but they are hindered significantly by FMS, items, or they can't net the OHKO when they do bait something in, they just basically say "you don't counter me". With Z moves its like "you don't even check me". A lure can surprise something but lures don't make games 6-5 instantly to this degree, and the problem is EVERYTHING can run these kind of sets.

 

[Kav]

who ran power herb without max spatk

when maxing spatk it had >50% chance to ohko after rocks, so it was already a strong lure it just actually gets the kill against the things youd use it against.

for heatran its even less sneaky cuz its a massive red flag whenever tran isnt running leftovers in the first place

i agree that z moves opens up a shitload of luring capabilities that may or may not be cancer once people really get the hang of them (lurings kinda iffy in the first place cuz the metas all over the place right now) but grassy heatrans probably one of the fairest ones in ou

 

[Jojobobo]

In addition to my previous comments on Kartana, I'll had that I think Pheromosa needs a quick ban. I don't really see how there can be any debate here, outside of a few rare typings that resist or are immune to Bug/Fighting/Ice/Poison coverage (Aegislash, Ghost and Fire types) it hits everything neutrally if not super effectively. GameFreak have literally taken the two things that could have possibly checked Bug/Fighting in Flying and Fairy and rendered them practically useless against it with that coverage.

Plus, you know what, if someone wanted to they can still run Fling with a fossil or something else that makes it base 100 power and cream Aegislash, Chandelure and Marowak. It's a gimmick for sure, but no more so than Natural Gift coverage that sure usage with Talonflame last gen. Fling doesn't even make contact, so don't have to run the risk of a King's Shield debuff (though the opponent can just switch next turn to take the Dark coverage, but therein lie mind games).

On the basis of it having perfect coverage against everything, as well as being faster than everything, this thing needs a ban. I really don't see any point in suspecting it.

 

[kumiko]

I would like to thank everyone who contributed to this thread but I believe it has run its course. If anyone has any questions feel free to PM the council or the OU Moderation team!