Old Mon BST/Ability Change Discussion

I know how to fix Gengar! Really, I do!!! So, remember how Alakazam died for a while? Well, it gained 3 spoons and became op!

Let's give Gengar spoons!!!

spooms.jpg

...yeah, that's better.

But to be real for a second, I'm very saddened by this. I think this is going to hurt Gengar more than anything else could. It loses an immunity for a weakness, and that's huge, plus Cursed Body isn't a great ability. Ugh. :/
 
Ok, Gengar lost a useful immunity to Ground and to Spikes, but:
(1) Gengar is still a good attacking Ghost/Poison type with good Spe + SpA. Now it can absorb Toxic Spikes;
(2) Gengar is not meant to switch directly into a move. You use Gengar because is a glass cannon, so you don't expect to use it to tank something.

===> Gengar is still OU worthy. Don't cry because the nerf isn't so harsh because with that bulk doesn't really matter if you are weak to Ground/Earthquake/Earth Power.
 
I actually think people are severely overestimating the impact of losing Levitate. Of course, losing an immunity is a pretty big deal, especially to a type that is normally a weakness, but does that really undermine Gengar's role? It cannot switch into Ground-type attacks anymore, and it might gain a few checks and/or counters, but its stats and movepool still allow it to fulfill pretty much the same role that it always, which is being a strong special attacker and/or destiny bonder. Of course, the effect to which it can perform this role is diminished, and the extent to which it is diminished may affect how far down in usage it drops.

EDIT: Just remembered Destiny Bond has been nerfed, which also limits the latter role's effectiveness.
 
Ok, Gengar lost a useful immunity to Ground and to Spikes, but:
(1) Gengar is still a good attacking Ghost/Poison type with good Spe + SpA. Now it can absorb Toxic Spikes;
(2) Gengar is not meant to switch directly into a move. You use Gengar because is a glass cannon, so you don't expect to use it to tank something.

===> Gengar is still OU worthy. Don't cry because the nerf isn't so harsh because with that bulk doesn't really matter if you are weak to Ground/Earthquake/Earth Power.
Pros: Toxic Spikes absorber, some late-game damage, good spd and sp. atk
Cons: Loses levitate, gains ground-type weakness, Earthquake is prob. an ohko now
 
Pros: Toxic Spikes absorber, some late-game damage, good spd and sp. atk
Cons: Loses levitate, gains ground-type weakness, Earthquake is prob. an ohko now
No, Earthquake is always a OHKO now. Gengar had problems to tank even burned physical attacker because it is a glass cannon, not a tank. Plus, Mold Breaker Earthquake users already OHKO Gengar.
The problem of being affected by Spikes is that you have more limited uses of Life Orb than you had before. Stop. Gengar doesn't and didn't tank hits.
 
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No, Earthquake is always a OHKO now. Gengar had problems to tank even burned physical attacker because it is a glass cannon, not a tank. Plus, Mold Breaker Earthquake users already OHKO Gengar.
The problem of being affected by Spikes is that you have more limited uses of Life Orb than you had before. Stop. Gengar doesn't and didn't tank hits before.
No, you're absolutely right, but it still doesn't need to take non-MB earthquakes too! That's pretty painful.
 
The Masquerain buff is pretty odd. Not that it's bad, but it received the highest stat boost out of anyone (unless you count Farfetch'd / Swellow +25 boost in one stat).

Neutral Masquerain, after a Quiver Dance, gets to at least outspeed Dugtrio. That's not "wonderful" by any means, but at least gives it a Speed edge. The offensive boost is appreciated though. For example, after a Quiver Dance and with a Modest nature with no hold item Masquerain can 2HKO Skarmory a bit more reliably now with Ice Beam (and to be fair on this calculation - not every Skarmory runs Brave Bird and many have opted for Iron Head). It's certainly not amazing by any means, but it might drag it out of the depths of PU into NU. It really needs Tinted Lens for fucks sake, though. At least Intimidate gives it a little more breathing room to set up a Quiver Dance? ?_?

Outside of that, some small changes are definitely appreciated such as more weather abilities on Pokemon (Pelipper is basically on Cloud 9 right now). The Electrode one is hilarious - guess we need to at least Speed tie M-Aero?
Forget Ice Beam. Masquerain gets Hydro Pump. With a Life Orb, it has an 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rocks. Oh, and Hidden Power Fire is guaranteed to OHKO after Stealth Rocks.
 
I actually think people are severely overestimating the impact of losing Levitate. Of course, losing an immunity is a pretty big deal, especially to a type that is normally a weakness, but does that really undermine Gengar's role? It cannot switch into Ground-type attacks anymore, and it might gain a few checks and/or counters, but its stats and movepool still allow it to fulfill pretty much the same role that it always, which is being a strong special attacker and/or destiny bonder. Of course, the effect to which it can perform this role is diminished, and the extent to which it is diminished may affect how far down in usage it drops.

EDIT: Just remembered Destiny Bond has been nerfed, which also limits the latter role's effectiveness.
I must have missed something. Can anyone elaborate on the nerf to Destiny Bond, please?
 
Every team I've made since Red/Blue has had a Gengar on it. Getting Levitate when abilities were introduced was the best thing that happened to it, and losing Levitate is the worst.

I cannot express to you how many Earthquakes I've switched into over the years to get Gengar in for free.
 
So much complaining about Gengar not Levitating. SO. MUCH.

Meanwhile, it's always been a Pokémon that hides in the shadows - y'know, that stuff that's usually projected onto the ground. It makes way more sense now than it ever did and Cursed Body can be useful to post-mortem disable Sucker Punch or Knock Off or something good.
 
So much complaining about Gengar not Levitating. SO. MUCH.
I mean, you can claim Cursed Body makes more sense from a flavor perspective and I'd agree. But Smogon is a competitive site, so let's not pretend it's anything less than a disaster for Gengar competitively.

It didn't even get a second ability or HA like most other pokemon.
 
Cursed Body is the worst thing to ever happen to Gengar by some margin. I don't think the nerf is enough to threaten its always OU status, at least straight away, but it'll be a struggle
 
But Smogon is a competitive site, so let's not pretend it's anything less than a disaster for Gengar competitively.
Except it is less than a disaster. For something like Gengar, losing an immunity is not that significant as it was already getting KOed by practically everything, and it still wouldn't have dared to switch in on Pokemon that use Earthquake, unless Choice-locked...
 
Except it is less than a disaster. For something like Gengar, losing an immunity is not that significant as it was already getting KOed by practically everything, and it still wouldn't have dared to switch in on Pokemon that use Earthquake, unless Choice-locked...
Or it was faster, and you predicted the opponent, and dared...

Besides, who uses Choice items anyway? Can't remember the last time I saw one of THOSE.
 
Like I've said I don't even know how many times so far, Gengar is still arguably the best offensive Ghost type in the metagame unless either Aegislash is unbanned or Marshadow stays in OU, neither of which I think are likely. Ghost is an amazing offensive type, so that alone is going to give him a huge niche on offensive teams. Variants like SubDisable and Hex are probably going to be more or less irrelevant now, but offensive variants like 3 attacks are going to be just fine. Bear in mind that most Earthquake users already have a way of smashing him flat on the switch (Outrage, Knock Off, Stone Edge, etc.) so it's not exactly like prediction wasn't a factor to begin with.

I doubt Gengar will leave OU. Losing Levitate hurts but even sans Levitate it's still an amazing Pokemon.
 
He probably won't leave OU, at least not at first. I give you that.

SubDisable, which was at one point in time the strongest set Gengar has had to this day, is effectively dead. It was on its way out in XY anyway, but it's dead now.

The point is that losing Levitate hurts, but some people don't seem to want to admit that. "It's not that bad." Yes. It is that bad. It may be survivable, but it is that bad.

We're just taking a moment to mourn the fact that this excellent, tricky, frail pokemon that could win you games based off prediction and intelligent switches will be reduced to a brainless LO attacker/sweeper in the near future.
 

bludz

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With all the new Fairy monsters running around I am very certain that Dugtrio's buff is gonna really help it out. We will see where certain mons land but monsters like Tapu Koko (stupid autocorrect) can't be pursuited, plus Steels are gonna be at a premium in trying to handle mons like Magearna. Could see more Magnezone too for removing the Steel type checks to these Fairies and that's even better for Dugtrio.
 
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With all the new Fairy monsters running around I am very certain that Dugtrio's buff is gonna really help it out. We will see where certain mons land but monsters like Tapu Koko (stupid autocorrect) can't be pursuited, plus Steels are gonna be at a premium in trying to handle mons like Magearna. Could see more Magnezone too for removing the Steel type checks to these Fairies and that's even better for Dugtrio.
Yeah, I have a feeling things like Heatran are going to be more common than ever, and Dugtrio just loves that. It's a shame A-Dugtrio loses Arena Trap to be honest, cause it would perfectly counter Chansey in that case, as Chansey couldn't even win with Toxic.

On the other hand, Steels like Ferrothorn and Skarmory have significantly less trouble with Dugtrio, although Dugtrio does still beat Ferrothorn if it carries Screech and Ferrothorn lacks Leech Seed (or the user is just dumb and sashes Dugtrio before using Leech Seed on it). This means that Magnezone is still relevant.
 
Yeah, I have a feeling things like Heatran are going to be more common than ever, and Dugtrio just loves that. It's a shame A-Dugtrio loses Arena Trap to be honest, cause it would perfectly counter Chansey in that case, as Chansey couldn't even win with Toxic.
At least we have one original forme that isn't outclassed by the Alolan forme. :)

I know it's sad that Alolan Dugtrio lost Arena trap but I really think that Dugtrio can be a great Sand sweeper. With Sand Force, it gets a 30% boost from its STABS with 130 BP Earthquake and 104 BP Iron Head off a buffed 100 Attack stat. May not be OU due to Excadrill competition but at least one Sand setter will likely drop to UU.

As for classic Dugtrio, I couldn't agree more with the previous posts. With more Fairies joining the fray, Dugtrio will have its big break trapping their counters. Dugtrio + Tapu Lele seems to be a really great core. Dugtrio can trap things like Bisharp, Klefki, and Magnezone while Tapu Lele's Psychic Terrain shields it from Sucker Punch and Klefki's shenanigans.
 
So what tier do you guys think Masquerain will find itself in this gen? It got the most substantial buff but I doubt it is enough to make it OU viable.
 

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