Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - The Robots - Metagrossite BANNED

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There are, of course, some anti-ban arguments that have floated through the thread. No one here is gonna tell you that Metagross is the most broken Pokemon since, Mega Mence, ZyGOD, or Pheromosa. Nor do we (the majority of us at least) think it's in the same tier as things like Mega Kang, Mega Luke, or Genesect; However, it sets a clear example of what it's like to be a broken Pokemon in the OU tier. Every Pokemon has negative attributes, but in the case of those they deem worthy to suspect, we must figure out if those negatives outweigh the positives. When the best anti-ban arguments are,
  1. You can chip it down.
  2. It can be revenged by scarfed and faster Pokemon.
  3. It has defensive checks and counters.
  4. There are other priorities in the tier.
  5. We should wait.
  6. Other things will be "broken" when it's gone.
Can't you (potential) anti-ban voters see how we could think how these are extremely poor arguments? None of these "flaws" outweigh the immense pressure it puts on both team building and actual play. In fact, most of these flaws apply to every offensive threat in the game. The others are just sentiment and theorymon. One of the arguments is literally "There are faster Pokemon that can kill it!," How can we actually take something like that seriously? In the Dugtrio suspect there were very clear anti-ban arguments that, although could be argued, couldn't be made irrelevant. In fact, I was an avid ban supporter while getting reqs. Once it actually became time to vote I was able to tear myself away for the emotional part of wanting something banned and weighed the pros and cons. Metagross doesn't fall into this boat. It's many, many, positives outweigh the few negatives that have been presented and disputed in this thread.
 
I mean, Dugtrio is literally still in the tier despite being suspected. I also don't know what you're trying to get at when you mention that only the anti-ban arguments are weak. Doesn't this trend simply indicate that there are few reasons to oppose a ban? You can't make a flawed argument and then complain when it's refuted. Unless existing pro-ban arguments are refuted in turn or solid, informed new reasoning is presented (which has happened a few times), I don't quite understand your concern.
I'm not sure what dugtrio has to do with that I said. I'm not saying ONLY anti-ban arguments are weak in fact I was stating the opposite. The guy I quoted was saying anti-ban arguments were weak, while I was replying that the other side of the argument also had flaws.

There are, of course, some anti-ban arguments that have floated through the thread. No one here is gonna tell you that Metagross is the most broken Pokemon since, Mega Mence, ZyGOD, or Pheromosa. Nor do we (the majority of us at least) think it's in the same tier as things like Mega Kang, Mega Luke, or Genesect; However, it sets a clear example of what it's like to be a broken Pokemon in the OU tier. Every Pokemon has negative attributes, but in the case of those they deem worthy to suspect, we must figure out if those negatives outweigh the positives. When the best anti-ban arguments are,
  1. You can chip it down.
  2. It can be revenged by scarfed and faster Pokemon.
  3. It has defensive checks and counters.
  4. There are other priorities in the tier.
  5. We should wait.
  6. Other things will be "broken" when it's gone.
Can't you (potential) anti-ban voters see how we could think how these are extremely poor arguments? None of these "flaws" outweigh the immense pressure it puts on both team building and actual play. In fact, most of these flaws apply to every offensive threat in the game. The others are just sentiment and theorymon. One of the arguments is literally "There are faster Pokemon that can kill it!," How can we actually take something like that seriously? In the Dugtrio suspect there were very clear anti-ban arguments that, although could be argued, couldn't be made irrelevant. In fact, I was an avid ban supporter while getting reqs. Once it actually became time to vote I was able to tear myself away for the emotional part of wanting something banned and weighed the pros and cons. Metagross doesn't fall into this boat. It's many, many, positives outweigh the few negatives that have been presented and disputed in this thread.
Arguments 4,5,6 are pretty weak though the sixth one can be somewhat argued. However, this negatives outweigh positives thing in regards to whether arguments like chip down, checks and counters, revengable is debatable and usually announced as a clear-fact- non debatable issue from many people who are pro-ban. I mean there was a guy a couple pages back who posted 6-7 replays of mega metagross being hindered by these anti-ban arguments.
 
You seem to misunderstand. Being revenged and have checks are indeed facts. They are points that cannot be denied and made irrelevant; However, they are still shit anti-ban arguments. Using this argument as an anti-ban implies that having any sort of determent rules out any and all effects that the Pokemon has on the metagame. Every pokemon in every tier has checks. Every pokemon in every tier can be revenged. This is just the nature of the game. When ones checks are pressured heavily by both meta shifts and even the Pokemon it's supposed to beat there is a clear problem. You say argument 6 can be argued, but it can't. Many users, even mods, have told people to not worry about what MAY happen when/if Metagross is gone. People are saying "Lele will be broken!" which is clearly irrelevant to how Metagross preforms in this meta. They also say that Greninja and Baton Pass should have been tested first, which again, is completely asinine and irrelevant to this test. Neither of them were suspected. We have to focus on what is being suspected, and trying to find scapegoats instead of actually applying a consistent argument isn't what we should be trying to do.

Again, no one in this thread thinks this mon is perfect. There are some people who don't even think it's broken, but instead has an unhealthy effect on the meta. When nearly 100% of anti-ban arguments either don't change how busted it is, or just sentiment or theory, you can see how most of the pro ban users aren't taking these "arguments" seriously.
 
When nearly 100% of anti-ban arguments either don't change how busted it is, or just sentiment or theory, you can see how most of the pro ban users aren't taking these "arguments" seriously.
Deja vu all over again. Recall, if you will, that the opposition to Pheromosa's ban did not challenge the qualities of the Pokemon itself, but rather attacked the nature of the suspect process, including the old "Smogon are a bunch of stall-loving elitist jerks" argument. In this case, we have a similar situation. The anti-ban arguments here boil down to:
  • Statements that are true of literally every Pokemon--everything can be chipped or revenged, and Metagross is indeed not the fastest Pokemon in this format; or
  • Statements that attack the nature of the suspect process, and also misunderstand it. If Lele seemingly becomes broken after Metagross goes, we suspect Lele. (Also, this is another familiar one--remember how banning Sableye last gen would set Medicham loose?) Whether or not Baton Pass and/or one or both Greninjas should have been tested "first", or the arrival of Swampert will have any effect at all, is irrelevant to the meta and this test as it stands. This is the order the Council has chosen to suspect, and Mega Swampert is unreleased.
And these don't address the changes that have benefited Metagross this gen, such as:
  • The Mega speed buff, allowing it to mega in front of, for example, Lando (which is then blown back by Ice Punch);
  • The decline of its old counters/hard checks such as Hippowdown or Mega Slowbro;
  • The addition of terrains, all four of which it benefits from to some degree: Electric blocks sleep while powering up Thunder Punch (goodbye, Slowbro and Skarmory); Grassy reduces incoming Earthquakes while giving it a bit of recovery; Psychic blocks Sucker Punch while powering up Zen Headbutt; and Misty blocks burns and paralysis, both of which effectively neutralize it.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: When the primary arguments for a Pokemon to stay in the tier call the nature of the suspect process (or future metagame) itself into question rather than effectively challenging the assertion that that Pokemon is broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy, the desired outcome should be clear.
 
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again: When the primary arguments for a Pokemon to stay in the tier call the nature of the suspect process (or future metagame) itself into question rather than effectively challenging the assertion that that Pokemon is broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy, the desired outcome should be clear.
It's not so much of the process, but more of a banning mindset that some people have that I don't really agree with. I'm more flexible than most other people when it comes down to what is broken, uncompetitive or unhealthy.
 
preserve

Your standards for banworthy pokemon must be really high, and this is coming from somebody who thinks Garchomp should be OU in gen IV.

I think there are several reasons for wanting Megagross banned, and not a lot of reason to keep him around. You can disagree with people's reasoning all you want, but if you don't start proposing real, solid reasoning for leaving Megagross in the format, it *will* end up being banned. Personally, I think that would be a good thing, but if you can demonstrate how it is a bad thing, you might end up swinging the vote, which all things considered would be good.
 
Deja vu all over again. Recall, if you will, that the opposition to Pheromosa's ban did not challenge the qualities of the Pokemon itself, but rather attacked the nature of the suspect process, including the old "Smogon are a bunch of stall-loving elitist jerks" argument. In this case, we have a similar situation. The anti-ban arguments here boil down to:
  • Statements that are true of literally every Pokemon--everything can be chipped or revenged, and Metagross is indeed not the fastest Pokemon in this format; or
  • Statements that attack the nature of the suspect process, and also misunderstand it. If Lele seemingly becomes broken after Metagross goes, we suspect Lele. (Also, this is another familiar one--remember how banning Sableye last gen would set Medicham loose?) Whether or not Baton Pass and/or one or both Greninjas should have been tested "first", or the arrival of Swampert will have any effect at all, is irrelevant to the meta and this test as it stands. This is the order the Council has chosen to suspect, and Mega Swampert is unreleased.
And these don't address the changes that have benefited Metagross this gen, such as:
  • The Mega speed buff, allowing it to mega in front of, for example, Lando (which is then blown back by Ice Punch);
  • The decline of its old counters/hard checks such as Hippowdown or Mega Slowbro;
  • The addition of terrains, all four of which it benefits from to some degree: Electric blocks sleep while powering up Thunder Punch (goodbye, Slowbro and Skarmory); Grassy reduces incoming Earthquakes while giving it a bit of recovery; Psychic blocks Sucker Punch while powering up Zen Headbutt; and Misty blocks burns and paralysis, both of which effectively neutralize it.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: When the primary arguments for a Pokemon to stay in the tier call the nature of the suspect process (or future metagame) itself into question rather than effectively challenging the assertion that that Pokemon is broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy, the desired outcome should be clear.
That sounds like Mega Metagross adapted well to the new metagame, the only real buff is the auto speed. However that autospeed still doesn't let him smash through slowbro and his other checks which existed in the past.
 
That sounds like Mega Metagross adapted well to the new metagame, the only real buff is the auto speed. However that autospeed still doesn't let him smash through slowbro and his other checks which existed in the past.
It's less that MMeta adapted well and more that the metagame itself its working in his favor. Like some people already said some pages ago, most of new pokes introduced in this gen (mostly the tapus in my opinion) are effectively conspiring against most of MMeta's old checks. Also:
  • Physically defensive Tangrowth is rare as heck because the AV set is infinitely more useful atm.
  • Bronzong is way too niche, it's blown away by the Greninja bros and can be turned into setup fodder.
  • Rotom-W & (Mega) Slowbro's defenses can be easily overpowered thanks to the terrains or the tapus themselves.
  • Defensive ground types (other than best genie) are not really as good as they once were. Hippowdown specially has lots of troubles doing its job, and that's assuming MMeta doesn't have Ice Punch.
 
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Metagross is NOT Broken in anyway. There are multiple pokemon that can wear down this guy like Heatran, and Landorus-T, and Battle Bond Gren, as long as it is already battle bonded, can hit MegaGross Hard with a Dark Pulse. Some other problems with MegaGross are that it has only OK for SPD and can be wore down by common offensive guys. I mean, Landorus-T is THE MOST common mon in the tier, and therefore, MegaGross should not be banned.
 
Metagross is NOT Broken in anyway. There are multiple pokemon that can wear down this guy like Heatran, and Landorus-T, and Battle Bond Gren, as long as it is already battle bonded, can hit MegaGross Hard with a Dark Pulse. Some other problems with MegaGross are that it has only OK for SPD and can be wore down by common offensive guys. I mean, Landorus-T is THE MOST common mon in the tier, and therefore, MegaGross should not be banned.
Again, anything can wear anything down. Unless there are multiple things the outspeed and OHKO MegaMeta, I am not believing you. Literally everything barring maybe MegaRay has checks and counters. Using it to try to keep MegaMeta in the tier is pretty weak.
 
Again, anything can wear anything down. Unless there are multiple things the outspeed and OHKO MegaMeta, I am not believing you. Literally everything barring maybe MegaRay has checks and counters. Using it to try to keep MegaMeta in the tier is pretty weak.
This pretty sums up the problem with the anti-ban arguements, they usually focus on either minor problems that Mega Metagross has that are too minor to actually be considered reasons not to ban it or problems that every offensive/mega pokemon has that can't be really considered arguements at all because if that were the case then things like Mega Salamence would be totally OU friendly.

And we all know that Mega Ray is hard walled by our lord and saviour, Carbink.
 
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Metagross is NOT Broken in anyway. There are multiple pokemon that can wear down this guy like Heatran, and Landorus-T, and Battle Bond Gren, as long as it is already battle bonded, can hit MegaGross Hard with a Dark Pulse. Some other problems with MegaGross are that it has only OK for SPD and can be wore down by common offensive guys. I mean, Landorus-T is THE MOST common mon in the tier, and therefore, MegaGross should not be banned.
Let's break down your points. Yes gross can be worn down, like all other mons, but I don't think heatran, a mon weak to both eq and hammer arm, will ever have the chance to wear this mon down unless the gross player switches in. Lando T can check gross if physically defensive, but it can't take more than a single -1 ice punch. Sure some fast threats like ninja and koko can wear it down, but you seem to be under the impression that being able to wear a Pokémon down makes it not unhealthy for the metagame. This just isn't a good argument. Shaymin sky could probably be worn down as well, but you wouldn't say that that mon isn't broken or unhealthy just because of this.

Also, you say that one of gross' problems is that it only has ok special defense. In what world is 80/110 special defense just "ok" to the point that is a problem?
 
This pretty sums up the problem with the anti-ban arguements, they usually focus on either minor problems that Mega Metagross has that are too minor to actually be considered reasons not to ban it or problems that every offensive/mega pokemon has that can't be really considered arguements at all because if that were the case then things like Mega Salamence would be totally OU friendly.

And we all know that Mega Ray is hard walled by our lord and saviour, Carbink.
But mega mence has way less counterplay than Mega meta. Mega Meta has reasonable counter play, slowbro and other checks aren't as unreasonable to use as the gimmicks people used to stop mega mence. Revenge killing is hard but possible, especially seeing how mega meta is huge rocky helmet bait and no recovery.

It's less that MMeta adapted well and more that the metagame itself its working in his favor. Like some people already said some pages ago, most of new pokes introduced in this gen (mostly the tapus in my opinion) are effectively conspiring against most of MMeta's old checks. Also:
  • Physically defensive Tangrowth is rare as heck because the AV set is infinitely more useful atm.
  • Bronzong is way too niche, it's blown away by the Greninja bros and can be turned into setup fodder.
  • Rotom-W & (Mega) Slowbro's defenses can be easily overpowered thanks to the terrains or the tapus themselves.
  • Defensive ground types (other than best genie) are not really as good as they once were. Hippowdown specially has lots of troubles doing it's job, and that's assuming MMeta doesn't have Ice Punch.
So your main excuse for not using lower tier Mons is because they are not as good as the rest of the tier?? Really? At least they are not absolute crap in every match up, that should not be a good reason in anyone's mind. And terrains are team support, one should be rewarded for supporting their team well enough.
 
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But mega mence has way less counterplay than Mega meta. Mega Meta has reasonable counter play, slowbro and other checks aren't as unreasonable to use as the gimmicks people used to stop mega mence. Revenge killing is hard but possible, especially seeing how mega meta is huge rocky helmet bait and no recovery.
And still even with helmet he can just swap out as he killed the helmet mon lol, slowbro is legit crap in this metagame, just showd at what kind of level MMeta is unhealthy, and its still beaten by it under terrain, so isnt reliable at all, and a prediction vs non Mega Bro can be all the metagross player needs to waste 3 slack offs or leave the slowbro low if this chooses to retaliate and does not get that 30%. We are searching for reliable counters here, not ocasional pokemons, by your logic of : "terrain is just a condition" then we take all conditions out and alomomola rn does nothing vs MMeta, same with bro. And about it being team support, the question is, how hard is this support? Koko+Meta is just too easy to use and get momentum with
 
But mega mence has way less counterplay than Mega meta. Mega Meta has reasonable counter play, slowbro and other checks aren't as unreasonable to use as the gimmicks people used to stop mega mence. Revenge killing is hard but possible, especially seeing how mega meta is huge rocky helmet bait and no recovery.
You're not getting it, I'm using Mega Mence as an example. People in this thread have been using the problems that all offensive or mega pokemon have as an argument for Mega Metagross to stay in the teir, which is absurd, so I used Mega Salamence as an example. Both Salamence and and Mega Metagross are offensive pokemon, so if having the problems of an offensive pokemon are enough justification to keep Metagross in the teir, then why not Salamence?

And Salamence hates rockey helmet just as much as Metagross.
 
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So your main excuse for not using lower tier Mons is because they are not as good as the rest of the tier?? Really? At least they are not absolute crap in every match up, that should not be a good reason in anyone's mind. And terrains are team support, one should be rewarded for supporting their team well enough.
Being forced to use otherwise unviable Pokemon solely to check/counter Mega Metagross is more of an argument AGAINST metagross rather than for it, because it proves just how overcentralising metagross really is.

Here's a cool way of looking at this; the viability of a Pokemon affects how likely it is to be chosen for a teamslot (obviously). A Pokemon with a LOT of useful traits will find itself on a LOT of teams (*cough* lando *cough*), and Pokemon with few useful traits will find itself on few teams. Just for example lets say Lando-T has 15 useful traits, and some traits are more valuable than others (being an EQ switch-in may be more valuable than being a fighting switch-in). However, a pokemon with 12 useful traits could be found on the same number of teams as Lando-T if the value of it's traits are high enough.
Now lets say Cresselia has 3-4 useful traits, one of those traits is countering Mega Metagross, you would expect Cresselia to be put on some teams - few and far between. However if the value of countering Mega Metagross is so high that it finds itself on the same number of teams as, say, a Pokemon with 9-10 useful traits, then you know you have an overcentralizing Pokemon (in this case Megagross).
A good example of this is Pheromosa. If we restrict the previous rule to only include offensive teams, you will find that Toxapex has very few redeeming traits, lets say 3-4, but since the utility of countering Pheromosa was so high it found itself on MANY more teams than you would expect - it was comparable to Pokemon with say 10-11 redeeming traits. Clearly a centralizing force. (Fyi offensive teams otherwise hate momentum-sinks like Toxapex)

Anyway, Megagross clearly isn't as centralizing as Pheromosa, you don't see Cresselias running around after all, idk I just felt like blurting this out because i see SO many people bringing up the argument of "just use Dusclops or Cresselia if you don't like losing to Megagross" because they don't see the bigger picture of teambuilding. Did this post contribute anything to the topic at hand? Probably not much lol

EDIT: Little bonus bit, a certain Pokemon can also be considered overcentralizing if they warp a large number of Pokemon a little bit. For example if a whole slew of Pokemon ranging from 6-11 useful traits (one of which is checking/countering Megagross) raised in usage, so they then became comparable to a group ranging from 8-12 useful traits.
 
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Being forced to use otherwise unviable Pokemon solely to check/counter Mega Metagross is more of an argument AGAINST metagross rather than for it, because it proves just how overcentralising metagross really is.

Here's a cool way of looking at this; the viability of a Pokemon affects how likely it is to be chosen for a teamslot (obviously). A Pokemon with a LOT of useful traits will find itself on a LOT of teams (*cough* lando *cough*), and Pokemon with few useful traits will find itself on few teams. Just for example lets say Lando-T has 15 useful traits, and some traits are more valuable than others (being an EQ switch-in may be more valuable than being a fighting switch-in). However, a pokemon with 12 useful traits could be found on the same number of teams as Lando-T if the value of it's traits are high enough.
Now lets say Cresselia has 3-4 useful traits, one of those traits is countering Mega Metagross, you would expect Cresselia to be put on some teams - few and far between. However if the value of countering Mega Metagross is so high that it finds itself on the same number of teams as, say, a Pokemon with 9-10 useful traits, then you know you have an overcentralizing Pokemon (in this case Megagross).
A good example of this is Pheromosa. If we restrict the previous rule to only include offensive teams, you will find that Toxapex has very few redeeming traits, lets say 3-4, but since the utility of countering Pheromosa was so high it found itself on MANY more teams than you would expect - it was comparable to Pokemon with say 10-11 redeeming traits. Clearly a centralizing force. (Fyi offensive teams otherwise hate momentum-sinks like Toxapex)

Anyway, Megagross clearly isn't as centralizing as Pheromosa, you don't see Cresselias running around after all, idk I just felt like blurting this out because i see SO many people bringing up the argument of "just use Dusclops or Cresselia if you don't like losing to Megagross" because they don't see the bigger picture of teambuilding. Did this post contribute anything to the topic at hand? Probably not much lol

EDIT: Little bonus bit, a certain Pokemon can also be considered overcentralizing if they warp a large number of Pokemon a little bit. For example if a whole slew of Pokemon ranging from 6-11 useful traits (one of which is checking/countering Megagross) raised in usage, so they then became comparable to a group ranging from 8-12 useful traits.
Slowbro, mew, hippo, and other lower tier checks are not unviable. They can still check other Mons, their sole purpose does not consist of checking mega meta. And that sounds like people don't want to use anything but the typical cookie cutter stuff. And no, dusclops and cresselia are not the only checks to mega meta. And besides, offensive teams don't have to run something like slowbro or hippo because mega meta is way too fast.
 
Slowbro, mew, hippo, and other lower tier checks are not unviable. They can still check other Mons, their sole purpose does not consist of checking mega meta. And that sounds like people don't want to use anything but the typical cookie cutter stuff. And no, dusclops and cresselia are not the only checks to mega meta. And besides, offensive teams don't have to run something like slowbro or hippo because mega meta is way too fast.
No, they aren't "unviable", but they're pretty damn bad right now because of all the Pokemon introduced that now remove them. That is their problem. With or without Megagross those 'mons are niche at best and even then, they find it extremely difficult to thrive in the current metagame. They're not "unviable" but if the main reason you see them as viable is to check Megagross, there's a problem.

It's not about "using cookie cutter stuff", it's the fact you are saying "just use these niche 'mons to check it and it's not broken" as if that's even remotely a good argument to keep it. Let's stop with this "smogon just wants blah blah blah" nonsense, you're not being subtle, even if you think you are.
 
I would like to make a point that I don't see anyone talk about that would actually be a good argument for anti-ban.
(I am for banning this thing as I can see the points of where this is broken and why)
It's coverage moves.
More specifically the power of them
Even with Tough Claws and that nice base 145 attack stat most of it's coverage moves are 75 base power or lower (Except for Earthquake and Hammer Arm) and are generally pretty weak which means that a lot of the time you won't be getting the 2HKO on those bulky mons even with super effective attacks. For example Skarmory.

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 132-156 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I think one of the main reasons an offensive mon is able to get banned is due to it's offensive presence through it's coverage moves allowing it to 2HKO what are it's checks and counters and Metagross is picking up 3HKOs which means Skarmory (Other physical walls) can roost/recover stall. That means there are more Pokemon that can switch into it unless you're running Tapu support and then it is slightly easier for the opponent to know what coverage moves you've got. It doesn't have particularly other major flaws beyond that though.

Also please don't discuss Mega Bro and Alomomola too often, they're both completely outclassed by Toxapex in the OU Metagame. They're just not viable and this actually helps the ban's favor rather than the anti-ban.
 
Also please don't discuss Mega Bro and Alomomola too often, they're both completely outclassed by Toxapex in the OU Metagame. They're just not viable and this actually helps the ban's favor rather than the anti-ban.
Mola has niche over pexy, knock off is damn good on stall, as it trashes on 3 of the most common stallbreakers ( fini, lele and alowak dont like losing their item, and mola is not 2HKOed by them, only lele w boosting item, which case is not a treat to stall lol).
 
No, they aren't "unviable", but they're pretty damn bad right now because of all the Pokemon introduced that now remove them. That is their problem. With or without Megagross those 'mons are niche at best and even then, they find it extremely difficult to thrive in the current metagame. They're not "unviable" but if the main reason you see them as viable is to check Megagross, there's a problem.

It's not about "using cookie cutter stuff", it's the fact you are saying "just use these niche 'mons to check it and it's not broken" as if that's even remotely a good argument to keep it. Let's stop with this "smogon just wants blah blah blah" nonsense, you're not being subtle, even if you think you are.
How about we become more open minded about the other alternatives that exist to check megagross, and while slowbro and other checks are less effective in the metagame. They certainly have their distinct attributes which may fill roles that their competitors can't. You guys make it seem as if those Pokemon are absolutely useless at everything other than checking mega meta.
 
How about we become more open minded about the other alternatives that exist to check megagross, and while slowbro and other checks are less effective in the metagame. They certainly have their distinct attributes which may fill roles that their competitors can't. You guys make it seem as if those Pokemon are absolutely useless at everything other than checking mega meta.
They have their benefits. They aren't useless other than being a check to MegaMeta. However, they are not as good as OU mons. That's why they aren't OU. The argument you're making would be the same as arguing MegaKang was balanced because Confagrigus could deal with it. It can, but it isn't common enough for the metagame to commonly use and isn't all that great in OU outside of being said counter.
 
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They have their benefits. They aren't useless other than being a check to MegaMeta. However, they are not as good as OU mons. That's why they aren't OU. The argument you're making would be the same as arguing MegaKang was balanced because Confagrigus could deal with it. It can, but it isn't common enough for the metagame to commonly use and isn't all that great in OU outside of being said counter.
No it is not the same, mega kang only has a 1-2 counters. Mega gross has a variety of checks along with reasonable amounts of counterplay while mega kang and the other stupid op mega Mons don't.
 
No it is not the same, mega kang only has a 1-2 counters. Mega gross has a variety of checks along with reasonable amounts of counterplay while mega kang and the other stupid op mega Mons don't.
I noticed you purposely refrained from using the word counter. . . Willing to bet that is no coincidence, but either way, yes, clearly it is an exaggeration. Megamom was among the worst things to ever exist in the OU metagame. But it still brings forward the point of, if the main reason that these 'mons are seen as "viable" or even "niche" is because they check a sole 'mon, that is a problem. And we can dance around the point all day long, but the 'mons you brought up pretty much match exactly that. Slowbro has very little place in OU and same with Hippo. Yes, of course they CAN work, they aren't useless, but they just don't function very well in this environment.

Yes, it is checkable, I thought that it was made abundantly clear a million times over, that we accept that. But a sizable problem with that is it is more than capable of adapting to that. As well as the fact that the 'mons you are bringing up, are EXTREMELY hardpressed in this metagame that does them no favors. This meta just is not kind to them. At all.

So, you're having to run less than stellar teammates all in the name of stopping one 'mon that could still break you in the right conditions. You've got to realize how weak that is. . .
 
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