np: ORAS UU Stage 7.3 - See No Evil | Baton Pass Suspect - see post #110

Status
Not open for further replies.

Sam

i say it's all just wind in sails
is a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
UU is suspecting Hydreigon. A long time staple of UU this generation, Hydreigon has increasingly become a difficult Pokemon to deal with. A myriad of good sets including Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Taunt Roost, and All-Out Attacker make Hydreigon difficult to deal with, as different sets carry different checks and counter. Great stats all around make Hydreigon bulky, strong, and fast regardless of the set, and access to U-turn makes it incredibly easy to get momentum off of its few answers. Hydreigon will not be allowed during the suspect test.

The suspect test will have an N value of 20 and a COIL requirement of 2650. It will last 2 weeks from the date this thread is posted.

You can calculate the number of games required using this formula:

N=20.0/log2(40*GXE/2650)

song: Television - See No Evil

The Immortal
 
So... Hydreigon. Hydreigon... Hye-drey-gone... We're talking about the three headed pseudo legendary dragon type right? I just. I really don't see this thing as unhealthy for the UU meta. If I were to compare it to another thing in another tier, I'd compare it to Landorus-T in OU. It has really great versatility. It hits things really hard. It is capable of running as a mixed attacker. It can pivot. It can run on essentially any team or playstyle. It can run a bulkier, more defensive spread (albeit that is not too common). Woot, all those positives. However, it gets worn down easily unless it runs roost; yet, running roost means you lose the ability to pivot with U-turn or you forfeit a coverage option, not to mention the fact that running roost practically forces it to use a non-choice item. Though it has a nice speed with base 98, that base speed leaves so much more to be desired. (similar to Lando-T's base 91 speed, which falls short of being great.) You can argue that the good natural bulk Hydreigon has makes up for the odd speed issue, but that simply isn't true due to Hydreigon having several weaknesses to commonly used moves and types in the UU Meta. Fighting, Bug/Ice, and especially Fairy. U-turn is one of the best moves in the game atm and I rarely ever see a team without at least one member able to pivot with U-turn. Ice is lovely and common coverage move carried by a good portion of water types in UU (and in general imo). Fighting types and fighting coverage are far from uncommon in the UU tier. Cobalion, Infernape, Mienshao, Blastoise-Mega, Conkeldurr, Lucario, Absol-Mega, Krookodile, Reuniclus (many psychic types in general), etc... all put pressure on Hydreigon from switching directly into battle. Krookodile and Absol-Mega can also just knock off Hydreigon's item if it decides to act as a counter.
Conkeldurr running the AV set can check any Hydreigon set. Banded Conk's Mach Punch does a minimum roll of 102% given Iron Fist is chosen over Guts (Banded Conk prefers Iron Fist anyway :p ). The Bulk Up variant also checks Hydreigon and forces it out. Hydreigon isn't incapable of returning to check Conk... Unless Conk is at +2, then Mach Punch OHKOs. Hydreigon also cannot beat a healthy BU Conkeldurr either.
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 252 SpD Conkeldurr: 319-376 (77.6 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I also want to point out that Infernape, Cobalion, and Mienshao all outspeed non-scarf Hydreigon and cleanly OHKO it with Fighting STAB.
Whenever Hydreigon is choiced, it suffers the same fate all choiced pokemon do: being locked into one move. Sure Hydreigon is strong and has U-turn, but when it's choiced, it gets worn down more easily and it is potential setup fodder for several big threats in UU such as Crocune, Gyarados, Conkeldurr, and Cobalion.
Whenever Hydreigon is scarfed, it might outspeed the whole unboosted meta, but it loses a bit of power and has to be extra careful of which move it locks itself into. U-turn is typically the safest option. Even so, I am of the logic that U-turn can be predicted by a good player, just like a double or any other move. I'm pretty sure it's happened to everyone where the safest or the correct play is U-turn; yet, your opponent reads that and decides to go for a strong attack or even a boosting move. It doesn't matter what pokemon this type of event happens to, we've all seen it and done the same thing to other players. Hydreigon is no exception to that scenario. Hydreigon is essentially always countered by Umbreon, Sylveon, and Florges. The stallbreaker set deals with Umbreon at least. But Florges and Sylveon are able to tank LO Iron Tail from Hydreigon and either recover damage off through wish+tect+leftovers or they just go for an attack and make Hydreigon regret it's life.
I just really think that regardless of what you do to Hydreigon, it will always have a big exploitable weakness. Without a choice scarf, NP+3 attacks Celebi (arguably its best set in UU) outspeeds Hydreigon and threatens to net an OHKO with Dazzling Gleam. Celebi can always just run a Colbur Berry to lure in Hyrdreigon and almost always tank the D-Pulse. U-turn does less to Celebi than STAB D-pulse.
So unless Hydreigon has a choice scarf, it fails to check a fair number of the pokemon with greater speed than itself. Whenever Hydreigon uses a choice item, it faces the problem of deciding which move to use and making a good prediction. Choiced Hydreigon is very easily worn down. Unless Hydreigon runs Roost, it is very prone to being worn down. If Hydreigon does run roost, it will very likely not run a choice item and it will lose either u-turn or a coverage move- this also plays back into the problem with Hydreigon's speed leaving more to be wanted. Hydreigon despises losing its item via knock off and has trouble directly switching into battle. Status, especially paralysis, torments Hydreigon.

Though I have said quite a number of cons against Hydreigon, I still feel that Hydreigon is one of the most viable pokemon in the current UU Metagame. It's Dark Pulse is spammable and it is a nice pivot. It fits very well on virtually any kind of team. I just don't see Hydreigon as being broken.
Hydreigon does not over-centralize the tier. Hydreigon does not force very many issues with team building. Hydreigon does not sweep large portions of the tier. Hydreigon does not lack counters. Hydreigon does not have way too many counters, but neither does Sylveon, Krookodile, and Celebi (arguably the most common offensive trio in the current UU Meta atm). There are tons of pokemon that pressure players to find counters to in UU. Hydreigon is pretty fast, but it still falls short of exceptional.

Hydreigon is a great pokemon and should not ever be considered weak in any regard. I just seriously don't see this thing as worthy of being banned.
All of Hydreigon's faults keep its pros in check. No matter how you decide to run Hydreigon, it always carries exploitable weaknesses. That doesn't at all mean Hydreigon isn't good. It just means Hydreigon has flaws which keep it from being unhealthy for the UU Meta.
I'm leaning towards No Ban.

tl;dr Hydreigon is a fantastic pokemon with several pros, but also several faults which keep it from being so exceptional that it becomes unhealthy. No matter what Hydreigon runs, it will always have exploitable weaknesses. It's a really good pokemon in general. Siding with a no ban.
 
Alright, so let's get the obvious disclaimer out of the way now: As you can tell by my profile picture, Hydreigon is my mascot 'mon (or would be if I had an active YouTube channel...maybe with my new job this year I can finally afford some recording equipment that works properly with my computer, but I digress), so I'm going to consequently be somewhat biased. However, I do care deeply about the health of the meta and I will try to put that aside for this review of good old Fluffy

So similar to Mence from the previous suspect test, the biggest problem with Hydreigon is it's versatility and being hard to predict at the team preview (especially if multiple potential choicers or LO users are present on the opposing team). I like Complicating's analogy to Landorus-T from OU (see above me), I also would compare Hydreigon to Lando-T and, to a much lesser extent, Mewtwo in Ubers. Until it's true form is revealed, you have to approach it with a degree of caution. It has access to a lot of potential coverage moves (most notably Earth Power, Fire Blast, and Flash Cannon for scarf or specs and Superpower and Iron Tail for mixed AOA), can pivot with U-turn to gain momentum, and (albeit rarely), run stallbreaker with taunt and roost. Dark Pulse nets extremely good STAB coverage for any set, and Draco Meteor completely pulverizes anything that doesn't resist it. Hydreigon is S-Tier for a reason; it is a metagame defining pokemon, and requires some consideration when teambuilding.

However, there are two very key difference between Mence and Hydreigon: First, it has little to no boosting capability. Mence was an extremely serious problem because DD Mence, if not played against correctly, could rip teams in half. Hydreigon cannot learn DD, so it's speed is essentially locked at 98 base. It can learn work-up for the AOA set if you choose to use that, but this forces you to lose either Roost recovery or one of your coverage moves, which is far from optimal. Second, that -2 base speed between Hydreigon and salamence actually makes a HUGE difference in the grand scheme of the metagame. If you are not running scarf, that 98 speed means you are outsped by anything base 100 or higher (most notable threats include scarf Darmanitan, LO or scarf Meinshao, Cobalion, Scarf Krook with Superpower, LO or Scarf Infernape, Scarf Heracross, and Mega-Beedrill). If you are running scarf, you gain the upper hand speed-wise on all but Scarf Meinshao and infernape if Timid, but choice locking yourself comes at obvious risks and consequences, forcing you to play hit and run and (if played incorrectly) results in a net loss of momentum during the match.

Complicating already pointed out the major check in the form of Conkeldurr, as well as other mons that can tank a hit at full health and strike back with a powerful coverage move that can OHKO the Hydra (Mega-Stoise, Celebi with colbur berry), or crocune, which can tank hits and set up on choice variants or AOA variants that have already used draco once. It should go without saying that the Cosmo and Wanda types scare the ever-living piss out of any hydreigon without steel coverage. However, I would like to add to this list and present one more pokemon that, in fact, has always been a definitive Hydreigon counter: Porygon2. With Eviolite, Porygon2 can ONLY be 2HKO'd by one set, shown below:

252 SpA Modest Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252HP/136Spd "Duck Tales" Porygon2 = 50-59.3%. Follow up hit from -2 does 24.8-29.6%. From full, this will only 2HKO if it takes SR damage on the switch AND Hydreigon gets absolute max roll twice in a row, otherwise, it will fall short, your down 2 dracos, and it will recover all it's health back or cripple with T-wave, followed up by retaliation Ice Beam. Any other set, and P2 will eat it's attacks like cheesecake:

4Atk/252SpAtk Hasty Life Orb Hydreigon vs. 252HP/120Def/136SpDef "Duck Tales" Porygon2: Draco Meteor = 39.5-46.7%, Superpower = 40.3-47.8%

To sum up, Hydreigon is a fantastic pokemon, and extremely versatile and hard-to predict threat, and requires some consideration when teambuilding. But it is FAR from over-centralizing: It doesn't have much defensive utility outside of the occasional stallbreaker, any good team naturally has an answer to it in one form or another, every set has an exploitable weaknesses, and it has weakness to the ever-present bug, fighting, ice, and fairy types. With all this, I will most likely go with DO NOT BAN when voting time comes.

TL;DR: Fluffy is a powerful threat, but every set can be conditionally checked by many common mons and is countered by Porygon2.
 

sparrow

kacaw
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
The Hydreigon suspect has inspired me to log back into Smogon and put forward my thoughts regarding the subject matter. A lot of people may be on the fence with this one because they love Hydreigon – heck, I myself am guilty of this! In my own opinion, I think that Hydreigon runs this tier; it’s the first Pokemon we should all have in mind when building teams. Useless conjecture aside I will attempt to convince you as to why I think this Pokemon should be banned.

1. It has no counters – nothing can switch in. Porygon2 is far too obscure in the current metagame to be considered a counter (sorry BrothaJdogg). Yes it may counter Life Orb 4 Atk Hydreigon, but let me show you another calc.:

252 Atk Choice Band Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 216-256 (57.7 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Shitty sets aside, Porygon2 doesn’t like being slapped by Taunt after switching into a Life Orb Draco Meteor; I am aware Ice Beam exists, but does anyone like to risk that mind game with their P2? As Complicating eloquently stated there is a bunch of great Fighting-Type Pokemon in the current metagame: when was the last time anyone saw Porgon2?

A lot of users have also argued that Sylveon or Florges stop Hydreigon cold…

4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Iron Tail vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 185-218 (47 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

4 Atk Life Orb Hydreigon Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 179-213 (49.7 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Please don’t base an argument on the fact that Iron Tail only has 75% accuracy – it’s not in your favour that you will keep your “counter”.

Okay, time to get a little more serious, Assault Vest Conkeldurr switches into Hydreigon once.

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 188-224 (53.5 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 168-198 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Conkeldurr gets to switch in once, has no reliable recovery and then has to predict what is coming in to take a Drain Punch / Ice Punch / Thunder Punch / Knock Off. Take your pick from Bulky Waters and Fairy Types.

2. Hydreigon is one of the most versatile Pokemon in the tier; arguably great at any set you choose to run. The most common sets people see on the ladder are: Stallbreaker, Choice Scarf & Wallbreaker. Hydreigon is one of, if not, the best Pokemon at each of those aforementioned roles in the current metagame. I won’t go into detail as to what each set does – we should all know! Further to this, Hydreigon can run a range of auxiliary sets that may cause trouble to your conventional checks and counters. Choice Specs and Choice Band immediately come to mind…

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 174-206 (48.3 - 57.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 248 HP / 4 SpD Sylveon: 204-240 (51.9 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 272-322 (73.1 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 217-256 (61.8 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

-2 252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 236 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 109-129 (31 - 36.7%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Choice Band Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 376-444 (101 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 612-722 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Choice Band is pushing the boundary of viability; but the fact it can run a decent set illustrates the sheer power of Hydreigon. On the topic of obscure sets there are a number of sets that I have seen successfully used. Thunder wave, Tail Wind & Work Up each have a small form of competitive merit in my opinion, and may procure the winning edge for its user in some matches.

Hydreigon users have a choice of freedom. A choice that puts the opponent on the back foot, leaving them at a disadvantage until they know which set they’re facing.

3. Choice Scarf Hydreigon limits a ton of offensively orientated Pokemon. Equipped with a Choice Scarf, Hydreigon can successfully revenge the following Pokemon:

Mega-Absol, Mega-Aerodactyl, Azelf, Celebi, Chandelure, Cobalion, Crawdaunt, Doublade, Crobat, Darmanitan, Entei, Espeon, Haxorus, Heliolisk, Heracross, Mega-Houndoom, Krookodile, Nidoking, Mega-Sceptile, Tornadus, Toxicroak.

Sure, you could argue that it is easy to set up on Choice Scarf Hydreigon. Competent users are aware of this; and should always have stops to such Pokemon.

4. But wait, there’s more! There’s one last thing that makes Hydreigon a fantastic Pokemon worthy of entry into BL. Hydreigon has excellent typing and bulk, granting it immunities to Psychic and Ground as well as resistances to Dark, Electric, Ghost, Grass and Water. Hydreigon is ridiculously easy to slap on a team because of the great defensive synergy it has with a lot of Pokemon. Hydreigon has so many opportunities to come in on resisted hits, it can absorb Scald for your team, and it can even serve as a back up check to Sacred Fire Entei. Great Pokemon such as Houndoom, Chandelure & Crawdaunt are essentially a very easy switch for Hydreigon. Spikes and Toxic Spikes don’t affect Hydreigon, this coupled with Roost make it surprisingly durable. Alongside its unpredictability, power and lack of switch-ins Hydreigon is truly a major force in the tier.

In conclusion, Hydreigon is a major threat, and I argue it deserves the ban. It is an incredibly difficult Pokemon to switch into, bolstered by the unpredictability of its sets. Its sets limit entire play styles: stall teams struggle to manage Hydreigon as they have to run different answers to its Stall Breaker and Wall Breaker sets. Balance faces the same issues enhanced by the fact that sweepers may need Hydreigon eliminated. Lastly, Offence is hindered by a limited number of choices it may have to make given the sheer revenge killing power of Scarf Hydreigon. If that isn’t enough, Hydreigon is a surprisingly durable Pokemon that is easy to switch-in, can take hits and potentially roost off damage.

UU has been sleeping on Hydreigon for a long time now. It’s time to wake up and take action.
 
Last edited:

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Take Kyurem-Black in OU. A mixed offensive powerhouse with above average bulk. A great mon, but not broken.
Then do the following:
1. Upgrade its coverage from HP fire to fire blast, from focus blast to superpower
2. Give it u-turn
3. Give it taunt
4. Give it more speed
Honestly, if kyurem-b had the same speed stat as lando-i, it would probably be banned, or at least suspected, in ou. But Hydreigon is basically that. It outruns nidoking, krookodile, mamoswine, everything at 95 base speed, porygon-z, lucario, haxorus, need i say more?
It can break stall with taunt. It can blow through balance with the mixed set. And it can slam offense with the scarf set.
This mon is broken af.
Ban.
 
Unfortunately I won´t have the time to ladder for this suspect test therefore I will share my thoughts about our new dragon suspect.

As sparrow already said a lot of people want dreigon to stay because it´s a very popular mon. The main reason probably being its versatility. But let´s be honest you can call it centralizing when a single mon almost forces you to run a fairy type on your team. Not to mention it has coverage for said fairy types. Basically every hydreigon check can be defeated by running coverage move X or Y. In conclusion no mon can safely switch into it and you basically always have to scout for coverage first.

In terms of versatility hydreigon can run a lot of different sets that each accomplish different things, but it should start to worry you when a single mon is the best (or at least close to it) in every role it can perform. Hydreigons speed is decent, nothing out of the ordinary but you can manage. Especially when running a choice scarf it ouspeeds most relevant threats and can revenge kill most of the meta. It also has a great typing both offensively as well as defensively: Dragon/Dark give it almost perfect neutral coverage (Fairy) and it also has a nice set of resistances, not to mention the ground immunity. On top of that it has decent 92/90/90 defenses and can take a hit (or maybe even roost of the damage). All of these traits together make dreigon threatening for every playstyle and depending on its set it can shut down all types of teams. Hydreigon has been on the top of the viability rankings for a long time and this suspect is honestly overdue.

There might be a few downsides to hydreigon for example it´s weak to common priority moves like mach punch/vacuum wave or ice shard which makes it easier to revenge kill, but overall Hydreigons positive traits overshadow these few downsides massively and we should ask ourselves whether UU wouldn´t be less restricted without the "holy trinity".
 

YABO

King Turt
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I haven't read everything in this thread just yet because lets face it, there are a LOT of words here. Anyways, I just wanted to post the factor that pushes Hydreigon over the edge compared to other pokemon in the tier, at least for me. For any offensive build, Hydreigon is both the most capable offensive and defensive pokemon on the team. Its typing allows easy pivoting into numerous passive and active pokemon. Good examples would be defensive Swampert or Mandibuzz for defensive mons and Houndoom, Chandelure, Krookodile, or Entei for their offensive counterparts. There are very few mons that fit on offensive teams that can blanket check so many dangerous threats. The only other dudes who'd provide that utility would be Swampert, Doublade, Whimsicott, or Aerodactyl. None of these are anywhere close to Hydreigon in offensive power vs 90% of teams. The only one to come close would be Aero but at the same time, Swampert always switches into Aero, Florges does not always switch into Hydra. So basically, it's nearly impossible to wall and provides way too much defensively for any team.
 

ehT

:dog:
is a Contributor Alumnus
Hi, this is me trying to clean up my act as a forum + PS presence.

So, following hogg's frankly superb pro-ban post, I'm not really sure how else I could expand on this discussion from my perspective -- i.e., that Hydreigon is busted as hell -- apart from trying to deconstruct some common anti-ban arguments (even then sparrow sniped me fml [love you b]). Without naming names, a lot of these arguments, from what I've seen, seem to be based on either overselling its very few downsides, or not understanding what is a check and what is a counter. For higher level players, these are well-established facts about Hydreigon and its impact on the meta, but it's still nonetheless important to do away with these misconceptions. Let's start with the most common ones:

1. But Fairies!

Nothing is safe. Nothing. And while we could end the discussion here, there's more. With a single prediction, Hydreigon is pretty much free to shred fatter cores with impunity. The best "switch-ins" we have in the tier all lose to the proper coverage or utility moves. Even Blissey loses long-term to Taunt (see: Christo v Manipulative) and Specs Focus Blast. You don't even know how to play around these sets until you learn what they are, which is a shot in the dark unless the team structure makes its set blatantly obvious. This ties in to the next point:

2. Just scout!
Oh, how I wish it was that simple. These traits make pivoting and scouting just to learn what your counterplay is, before you can even make it, highly punishing for you, and highly rewarding for the Hydreigon player. Punishing somebody for the very basic act of scouting is a trait unique to Hydreigon, and gives you a distinct advantage just for clicking on him in the teambuilder. In other words, the concept of risk and reward when using Hydreigon is thrown out the window, because simply adding it to your team gives you so much with pretty much no cost. It's one thing to unpredictable, and it's another for there to be no 'mon in the tier you cannot potentially threaten, thereby creating a winning situation for you no matter what your opponent chooses to do. This isn't a matter of "learning to deal with it." We've been dealing with it for years now, and it's well-established that even the best is, more often than not, not enough.

3. Hydreigon, by choosing its set, has to choose what playstyle it does well against.
It's not so much that it has to choose what it does well against, so much as it gets to chooses what it excels against. Scarf can easily U-Turn on its checks and revenge kill offensive threats versus fat teams while still being the best anti-offence mon in the tier, while Specs and LO Roost (which can choose between Taunt, Tailwind, or one of 10 million coverage moves) still have an above average Speed tier and pivoting ability, walling the likes of Krook, Chandelure, Electrics, and Houndoom, to be a nuisance versus offence.

4. OK, Hydreigon has no counters. So what? Crawdaunt and Mamoswine have no counters, why aren't we suspecting them?
This is wrong for a combination of reasons previously mentioned by myself and others. Chief among these are defensive utility, support moves, and coverage. While Crawdaunt and Mamoswine are great as general murderers-of-things, but they can't hold a candle to Hydreigon because they lack these very key traits. While Mamoswine can really only come in on Volt Switch, and Crawdaunt can only come in on, well, nothing, Hydreigon sports Keldeo bulk, 8 resistances (factoring in Levitate), and Roost. Furthermore, while other wallbreakers' jobs rarely extend beyond "click moves and watch things die," Hydreigon can do not only this, but can support its team by gaining momentum with U-Turn, luring teammates' checks with coverage, shutting down walls with Taunt, and again, do these things consistently thanks to Roost. Lastly, Crawdaunt and Mamoswine are, for the most part, predictable in what moves they're going to run; Mamo may run Superpower, and Crawdaunt can choose between CB, SD, and Sludge Wave. And while unpredictability to some extent is fine, I expanded above on why Hydreigon's degree of unpredictability is unhealthy.

Hopefully, this can clear up a lot of misconceptions about how Hydreigon isn't broken, and why I'm voting ban if I get reqs. :]
 
Last edited:

Sacri'

the end is here
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
If I were to compare it to another thing in another tier, I'd compare it to Landorus-T in OU.
Havent totally made up my mind about Hydrei but please stop comparing suspected pokemon to another pokemon in another tier. It literally doesnt do anything other than making your post worse and I really dislike the argument underneath it aka "if x ou 'mon similar to the y uu suspected mon isnt broken in ou then the suspected mon isnt broken in uu either" thats just wrong for a lot of obvious reasons. What happens/happened in another tier is completely irrelevant in a uu suspect thread.
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
I've already made my points in the other thread, though I'm copying them here for anyone who didn't read them:

So I've been pretty vocal about this for a while, but I think that UU is way overdue for a Hydreigon suspect.

Someone asked me to post elsewhere why I thought Hydreigon was all of a sudden ban-worthy after being a UU staple for years, and here was my response:
  • Draco Meteor is a stupid, stupid move. It hits so ridiculously hard from Hydreigon's Special Attack that you really can't switch into it without a decently bulky resist (or a Blissey). You can't just pivot in something moderately bulky that KOs in return, because Draco just drops things. Hell, it does 45% to 252/252+ Umbreon (and the popularity of Taunt means that using Umbreon as your special wall is a liability against any team with a Taunt Hydreigon). This is literally THE benchmark Special Attack in UU - Draco Meteor from Hydreigon hits harder than Sylveon's Hyper Voice, +2 Celebi's Psychic or PZ's Adaptability Tri-Attack. It is a nuke, and if the opponent doesn't have a Fairy or a Blissey, there is almost zero drawback to clicking it every time Hydreigon comes in.
  • Hydreigon gets really pointlessly good secondary STAB and coverage. Lots of things hit really hard, and I don't think that wallbreakers are inherently broken. But Hydreigon's secondary STAB is ALSO really good, hitting most Steel types hard and preventing things like Cresselia from recovering on it. Plus, you know, Hydreigon for some reason learns EVERY GODDAMNED MOVE IN THE GAME, so it has the ability to punch past every one of its counters. I'm not talking about some hypothetical Hydreigon with eight moveslots. Actual legitimate, functional Hydreigon sets can easily beat common counters, just running dual STABs + Fighting and Steel coverage.
  • The rest of its (non-offensive) movepool ain't half bad either. Mostly I'm talking about Uturn, Taunt and Roost here, Roost in particular.
  • Hydreigon is actually really useful defensively. In general I don't think wallbreakers are broken. For example - sorry Fuga - I don't actually think Mamoswine is broken, despite the fact that like Hydreigon, it's stupid hard to switch into. The difference, though, is that Mamoswine is both significantly slower (I'll get to that next) and also doesn't really possess much defensive utility. You're almost never switching Mamoswine into attacks not named Volt Switch, so with even a little bit of offensive pressure from the other team, Mamoswine is only ever coming in after something dies. But Hydreigon's bulk is actually pretty good, and its typing is kind of amazing defensively for the tier. When you add in the fact that it's Stealth Rock neutral and immune to all other entry hazards, Hydreigon is going to get multiple switch-in opportunities in most games, which other wallbreakers could only dream of. Entei and Kyurem can both apply similar offensive pressure and are also stupidly fat, but they are hazard weak and have way worse defensive typings for the tier, so again, they're not coming in as freely as Hydreigon. (Oh yeah, and it resists Pursuit, too. Not necessarily the biggest deal, but it adds into how few drawbacks there are to just bringing in Hydreigon and clicking Draco Meteor.)
  • Actually decent Speed. I always see people point out Hydreigon's Speed like it's some great flaw. I'll admit, it's excruciating to see something get so close to the base 100 benchmark but not quite hit it, but... really? Hydreigon's fast af, dude. Yeah, it's the second slowest of the S ranks by a hair, but it's still faster than the entirety of A+ and 2/3 of the rest of the tier. I always hate it when I see people argue that you have to choose between beating offense with Scarf or beating fat teams with Specs/LO. Specs/LO might not be as crazy good versus offense as it is versus balance, but they still almost always put in work, especially since most things that outspeed it can't actually switch in. Hell, I just pulled up all of kokoloko's replays from SPL. He almost exclusively played offense, and yet in almost every single week, Hydreigon was as fast as or faster than 4 out of 6 pokemon on koko's teams (and this was in a meta when we had another fast offensive threat in Alakazam).
So yeah, any one of those factors wouldn't be overwhelming, but when you take in how few drawbacks there are to just clicking Draco Meteor, add in its thoroughly ridiculous movepool, slap on the fact that it gets several switch-ins in a game, and finish it off with the fact that it outspeeds a pretty major chunk of the tier, you have something that is really overwhelming. Frankly, I find Hydreigon more problematic to build around than Salamence ever was, because if I'm building anything other than balls out offense, I pretty much HAVE to add Florges or Sylveon to feel like I have a decent answer to it.

So then comes the next question... what changed? I mean Hydreigon has been UU literally for years, so what actually changed for it? Well, I think there are a couple of big factors.

First of all, the common sets shifted and became more centered around sets that take advantage of Hydreigon's best aspect - i.e., its crazy-strong Draco Meteor. During most of my time playing XY and early ORAS, Scarf was far and away the most popular set, with the occasional "lure" Hydreigon with Superpower for Blissey/Umbreon. By UU Open last year, this had largely shifted in favor of LO Taunt Roost, which is around when I personally feel Hydreigon started being really overwhelming. (Not to say Scarf isn't good, by the way - it's a really great set, and Hydra is in my opinion far and away the best Scarfer in the tier.) And now, in addition to LO Taunt (which remains popular), Specs Hydreigon has been seeing more and more use, whereas previously I think it was considered mostly a niche set meant to bluff Scarf and surprise people.

Second, the meta has gotten increasingly more offensive with various drops and shifts. ORAS obviously saw a big jump in offensive threats right off the bat, and tier shifts brought some old standards like Heracross and eventually Celebi back, plus some big new threats like Gyarados, Mamoswine, Conk and Sylveon. Meanwhile, most of the heavy hitters still remain - we've banned Alakazam and Salamence but most of the old standards like Entei and Krookodile still remain. It's gotten to the point where building anything other than straight offense is a really delicate balancing act, since there are so many serious threats to account for. While it's the newer threats that have really tipped things over the edge, Hydreigon is far and away the most threatening (only Celebi really comes close), and is probably the most restrictive on teambuilding. You could ban all the new drops and shifts to make UU less crappy, simply because Hydreigon has a history of being UU - but that's stupid. Hydreigon is more busted than almost any of them (again, the only thing IMO that comes close is Celebi).

So yeah, enjoy that wall of text. None of this is new, by the way - I've said all of this many times (in far smaller chunks) on the Skype chat, in the PS room, etc. For what it's worth, by the way, I believe Hydreigon is actually more busted in this tier than three out of the five most recent UU bans: Salamence, Victini and Pidgeotite. (Yeah, Serp and Zam were more busted, but come on, that's hardly a surprise.)


That said, I did want to respond to part of this:

Second, that -2 base speed between Hydreigon and salamence actually makes a HUGE difference in the grand scheme of the metagame. If you are not running scarf, that 98 speed means you are outsped by anything base 100 or higher (most notable threats include scarf Darmanitan, LO or scarf Meinshao, Cobalion, Scarf Krook with Superpower, LO or Scarf Infernape, Scarf Heracross, and Mega-Beedrill). If you are running scarf, you gain the upper hand speed-wise on all but Scarf Meinshao and infernape if Timid, but choice locking yourself comes at obvious risks and consequences, forcing you to play hit and run and (if played incorrectly) results in a net loss of momentum during the match.
Literally EVERYTHING you've listed there ALSO outspeeds base 100s, so I'm not sure what your point really is. Those two points of Speed don't make a lick of a difference in any of the situations you've mentioned. Yes, Hydreigon would certainly be better if it was faster. People harp on its Speed tier like that's a huge deal, though, and I think it's blown way out of proportion. It still outspeeds a huge chunk of the tier (including many common offensive staples).

Relevant things you DO miss by not being base 100 Speed include speed tying with Celebi (which you wall 100% if it lacks Dazzling Gleam), and I guess speed tying with offensive Tentacruel, which hardly matters (252 SpAtt Tentacruel doesn't even have a guaranteed 2HKO with Ice Beam). That's... basically it, so I'm not sure why everyone seems to harp on Hydreigon missing the 100 Speed benchmark. The Celebi one is relevant, but I still think that it's a stretch to say that 98 Speed is in any way slow.

Also, this has been brought up before, but it's almost impossible to OHKO without a STAB, super-effective hit. It doesn't look like it should be that bulky, but to put things into perspective, Hydreigon has a better than even chance to survive ridiculous moves like Specs PZ Tri-Attack or even +2 Bounce from Gyarados. Non-STAB SE moves like MegaPert's Ice Punch and MegaShark's Ice Fang miss out on the KO entirely. This is also a big part of the reason why LO Taunt is so effective - even doing things like slapping Ice Beam onto random bulky Waters so that they aren't Taunt bait doesn't help when Ice Beam doesn't even 2HKO it (even Vaporeon, with a 110 Special Attack, doesn't have a guaranteed 2HKO, and "weaker" bulky Waters like Swampert and Suicune and Milotic never 2HKO). What that also means is that against offense, even without a Scarf, a decently-played Hydreigon can usually at worst force a trade every time it comes in safely.

Regarding the ladder, thus far I'm definitely enjoying being able to build BO and balance without slapping Sylveon onto every team (Sylveon is still a great 'mon, but it's not more or less required in the way it was previously), so that's pretty nice. I'm going to keep playing on the suspect ladder for a while before I make a final decision, but I am definitely leaning heavily toward ban.
 
Are you running Lefties/a bulky spread or is that standard 252/252 Offensive Hydreigon? Just saying, in my experience even Taunt Roost wanted every point of speed and power it had.
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Are you running Lefties/a bulky spread or is that standard 252/252 Offensive Hydreigon? Just saying, in my experience even Taunt Roost wanted every point of speed and power it had.
No, I'm talking about standard offensive LO TauntRoost Hydra. One of the reasons why it's so successful is that it completely shuts down the common bulky Waters in the tier without actually sacrificing any of its power. The only one that comes close to handling it is Milotic, but it still requires playing against the 50/50, as you can see here in my SPL game vs. koko, where he was able to keep my Calm Milotic from recovering and wear it down to the point where it no longer checked his threats almost instantly. Slapping Ice Beam on bulky Waters to try to avoid being Taunt bait doesn't help when you have calcs like this...

0 SpA Swampert Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 124-148 (38 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Suicune Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 130-154 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Milotic Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 142-168 (43.5 - 51.5%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO

Also, for the people who say that Porygon2 is just about the best all-around Hydreigon switch-in:

0 SpA Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 148-176 (45.3 - 53.9%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO

So you can switch P2 in on a Draco, lose 40-46.7%, and get Taunted. Even if you predict the Taunt and attack, Hydreigon can switch out and still be at roughly 40% health. So tell me, what switches into Hydreigon the next time it comes in? Certainly not P2.

I'm not saying that Hydreigon has this phenomenal bulk that lets it wall half the tier or anything, but it is really kind of extraordinary how fat it is for one of the hardest hitting and faster 'mons in the tier.
 
Last edited:
Take Kyurem-Black in OU. A mixed offensive powerhouse with above average bulk. A great mon, but not broken.
Then do the following:
1. Upgrade its coverage from HP fire to fire blast, from focus blast to superpower
2. Give it u-turn
3. Give it taunt
4. Give it more speed
Honestly, if kyurem-b had the same speed stat as lando-i, it would probably be banned, or at least suspected, in ou. But Hydreigon is basically that. It outruns nidoking, krookodile, mamoswine, everything at 95 base speed, porygon-z, lucario, haxorus, need i say more?
It can break stall with taunt. It can blow through balance with the mixed set. And it can slam offense with the scarf set.
This mon is broken af.
Ban.
This is such a poorly made argument. If Hydreigon was simply an improved Kyurem-B (i.e. therefore superior), it would be OU, and Kyurem-B would be UU / BL, not the other way around. Hydreigon's physical Attack is decent, but magnitudes lower than KB's, and he lacks a neutrality to Ice that KB can boast. And besides this, comparing Hydreigon to anything in OU is also completely irrelevant, as how Hydreigon performs in and affects the UU metagame (and how the Metagame fares without it) are the only things that matter in this suspect test.

Anyway, here are some reasonings for why I think Hydreigon should stay in UU...

- The main argument I see put forth is that its power and coverage make it almost impossible to switch into safely... but how does this differ from other UU powerhouses such as Chandelure (whose most reliable counters are stopped cold by Trick or Will-O-Wisp), Haxorus (2HKOes the entire tier with a choice band with no boosts, can also use Dragon Dance sets for boosts unlike Hydreigon), Porygon-Z (Trick cripples Blissey and Snorlax switch-ins) and Specs Sylveon? Yes, Hydreigon's movepool is superior to these other 'mons, but it's also a mon that has to play cautiously as a result, with many of its coverage moves being easy to take advantage of on the common Choice sets.
- Its speed is decent... but far from impressive. It's nothing to do with it being below base 100, so much as just being slow compared to a lot of other offensive mons in the tier. Major threats like Mienshao, Scarf Heracross and Infernape easily force it out or set up on it as it switches out (and it will, always, switch out on these threats), therefore causing the Hydrigon user to lose momentum. As a result of this unfortunate speed, Hydreigon needs a Scarf to be a real threat vs offensive teams which generally have at least 3 or 4 mons faster than Hydreigon and capable of OHKOing it. Therefore it is frequently (unless it U-Turns) locked into moves that are often capitalised on - especially Draco and Fire Blast which most teams carry immunities or hard bulky resists to respectively, and Superpower which gets progressively weaker and is often easy to predict and capitalise on. Basically, Hydreigon has to be used VERY carefully and predict very well to avoid being a liability vs offensive teams - it is NOT the brainless "click Draco and kill stuff" 'mon that everyone pretends it is. Draco is powerful but the fact you have to switch out immediately afterwards forces a huge loss of momentum that can just be a death sentence vs offensive teams, and Dark Pulse and the coverage moves just don't offer the raw power to KO the bulkier neutral 'mons found on such teams. And using a choiced Hydreigon while the opponent has a Fairy type? Incredibly risky mindgames for both sides ensue.
- Hydreigon is most threatening as a bulky wallbreaker and pivot thanks to its nice natural bulk for an offensive mon, access to U-Turn and Taunt, and the great power that Draco provides... which is a good thing. There is nothing inherently broken about a bulky pivot that can threaten switch-ins, it just means it can condense roles nicely... similarly to how Landorus-T in OU and Flygon in RU work, actually.

Hydreigon is undoubtedly one of the best UU mons of the entire generation, but it is not the near-unstoppable force that the ban proponents are making it out to be. It has MORE than its fair share of checks on offensive teams, and there are some bulky mons on balance teams that threaten any set as long as they have high HP. Its speed is unimpressive, and its weaknesses common and exploitable... so some Pokemon will always outspeed and OHKO and there is absolutely nothing Hydreigon can do but switch out and lose momentum once one of them comes in; including Whimsicott, Infernape, Mienshao and, perhaps most notably, Iron Fist Choice Band Conkeldurr who OHKOes with his priority STAB Mach Punch.

In my opinion, there are just too many things in the tier that Hydreigon struggles to deal with, that Hydreigon should not be banned. I won't vote (not reached the reqs yet), but I just hope I can help avoid a disaster by convincing some others into keeping an excellent and non-broken 'mon in its rightful place in UU.
 

YABO

King Turt
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
This is such a poorly made argument. If Hydreigon was simply an improved Kyurem-B (i.e. therefore superior), it would be OU, and Kyurem-B would be UU / BL, not the other way around. Hydreigon's physical Attack is decent, but magnitudes lower than KB's, and he lacks a neutrality to Ice that KB can boast. And besides this, comparing Hydreigon to anything in OU is also completely irrelevant, as how Hydreigon performs in and affects the UU metagame (and how the Metagame fares without it) are the only things that matter in this suspect test.
dudes point.png

Joking aside, his point was based on how they function in the different tiers. They both act as a strong dragon type wallbreaker. Of course, KyuB has its own strengths which contribute to its OU status as opposed to Hydreigon's UU rank. Also I don't like the idea of just dismissing how pokemon fit into other metagames entirely. I get that it shouldn't have much pull in the context of a suspect but there is definitely something to be said with taking a strategy or pokemon used in one tier and applying it to another. A good example of this would be when UU was even more infested with fat waters than today, Sub water types like Feraligatr became far more prevalent. Much later on, I started to dabble in RU and noticed a similar trend. From there I made a team with Substitute Seismitoad and saw a lot of success for a long time. Basically, I think it's ignorant to completely dismiss similar pokemon and trends between tiers simply because the pokemon surrounding them arent the same. In a lot of ways, different metas shape up to be rather similar.

Also, to briefly address your other points, Hydreigon has insane defensive utility which is exactly how it differentiates itself from other dudes. Its speed tier is actually really good and you outspeed pretty much everything aside from roughly 10 things + the megas in the tier.
- Hydreigon is most threatening as a bulky wallbreaker and pivot thanks to its nice natural bulk for an offensive mon, access to U-Turn and Taunt, and the great power that Draco provides... which is a good thing. There is nothing inherently broken about a bulky pivot that can threaten switch-ins, it just means it can condense roles nicely... similarly to how Landorus-T in OU and Flygon in RU work, actually.
And besides this, comparing Hydreigon to anything in OU is also completely irrelevant, as how Hydreigon performs in and affects the UU metagame (and how the Metagame fares without it) are the only things that matter in this suspect test.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
This is such a poorly made argument. If Hydreigon was simply an improved Kyurem-B (i.e. therefore superior), it would be OU, and Kyurem-B would be UU / BL, not the other way around. Hydreigon's physical Attack is decent, but magnitudes lower than KB's, and he lacks a neutrality to Ice that KB can boast. And besides this, comparing Hydreigon to anything in OU is also completely irrelevant, as how Hydreigon performs in and affects the UU metagame (and how the Metagame fares without it) are the only things that matter in this suspect test.

Anyway, here are some reasonings for why I think Hydreigon should stay in UU...

- The main argument I see put forth is that its power and coverage make it almost impossible to switch into safely... but how does this differ from other UU powerhouses such as Chandelure (whose most reliable counters are stopped cold by Trick or Will-O-Wisp), Haxorus (2HKOes the entire tier with a choice band with no boosts, can also use Dragon Dance sets for boosts unlike Hydreigon), Porygon-Z (Trick cripples Blissey and Snorlax switch-ins) and Specs Sylveon? Yes, Hydreigon's movepool is superior to these other 'mons, but it's also a mon that has to play cautiously as a result, with many of its coverage moves being easy to take advantage of on the common Choice sets.
- Its speed is decent... but far from impressive. It's nothing to do with it being below base 100, so much as just being slow compared to a lot of other offensive mons in the tier. Major threats like Mienshao, Scarf Heracross and Infernape easily force it out or set up on it as it switches out (and it will, always, switch out on these threats), therefore causing the Hydrigon user to lose momentum. As a result of this unfortunate speed, Hydreigon needs a Scarf to be a real threat vs offensive teams which generally have at least 3 or 4 mons faster than Hydreigon and capable of OHKOing it. Therefore it is frequently (unless it U-Turns) locked into moves that are often capitalised on - especially Draco and Fire Blast which most teams carry immunities or hard bulky resists to respectively, and Superpower which gets progressively weaker and is often easy to predict and capitalise on. Basically, Hydreigon has to be used VERY carefully and predict very well to avoid being a liability vs offensive teams - it is NOT the brainless "click Draco and kill stuff" 'mon that everyone pretends it is. Draco is powerful but the fact you have to switch out immediately afterwards forces a huge loss of momentum that can just be a death sentence vs offensive teams, and Dark Pulse and the coverage moves just don't offer the raw power to KO the bulkier neutral 'mons found on such teams. And using a choiced Hydreigon while the opponent has a Fairy type? Incredibly risky mindgames for both sides ensue.
- Hydreigon is most threatening as a bulky wallbreaker and pivot thanks to its nice natural bulk for an offensive mon, access to U-Turn and Taunt, and the great power that Draco provides... which is a good thing. There is nothing inherently broken about a bulky pivot that can threaten switch-ins, it just means it can condense roles nicely... similarly to how Landorus-T in OU and Flygon in RU work, actually.

Hydreigon is undoubtedly one of the best UU mons of the entire generation, but it is not the near-unstoppable force that the ban proponents are making it out to be. It has MORE than its fair share of checks on offensive teams, and there are some bulky mons on balance teams that threaten any set as long as they have high HP. Its speed is unimpressive, and its weaknesses common and exploitable... so some Pokemon will always outspeed and OHKO and there is absolutely nothing Hydreigon can do but switch out and lose momentum once one of them comes in; including Whimsicott, Infernape, Mienshao and, perhaps most notably, Iron Fist Choice Band Conkeldurr who OHKOes with his priority STAB Mach Punch.

In my opinion, there are just too many things in the tier that Hydreigon struggles to deal with, that Hydreigon should not be banned. I won't vote (not reached the reqs yet), but I just hope I can help avoid a disaster by convincing some others into keeping an excellent and non-broken 'mon in its rightful place in UU.
OK, fine. Let me compare it to victini, which was banned from UU.
Speed: Basically the same, except that victini speed ties the other base 100s. They outspeed the same mons. But keep in mind victini's main attacking move reduces its speed.
Bulk: Hydreigon is 92/90/90, vs victini's 100/100/100, but victini is weak to rocks, so given that rocks are up, hydreigon is bulkier. Also hydreigon has access to roost.
Typing: Hydreigon has 5 weaknesses, 2 immunities, and 6 resistances. Victini has 5 weaknesses 7 resistances. So Hydreigon once again wins.
Power: Victini's banded V-Create hits like an absolute truck.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 269-317 (78.8 - 92.9%)
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 367-433 (107.6 - 126.9%)
But most of victini's other moves are noticeably weaker. Zen headbutt is weaker than hydreigon's dark pulse, has 1% lower accuracy, and a 10% lower flinch chance. Hydreigon's fire blast is within 1% of victini's bolt strike if they are both life orb. Hydreigons superpower hurts a lot more than victini's brick break.
Movepool: Victini's movepool is the only reason it has any power. And it's support movepool sucks. But hydreigon learns roost and taunt. Also hydreigon learns flash cannon to bop fairies, also has u-turn, while Victini basically only has the same 4 moves every time (bolt/vcreate/uturn/zen). Hydreigon's mixed set is way better than victini's as well.

You say hydreigon is weak to priority and fighting types, which it is, but it resists darks, and darks/sucker counter victini. Plus, that's even more of a downside for victini because dark types can trap you with pursuit. Sure, hydreigon is 4x weak to fairy, but overall they have the same number of weaknesses, but hydreigon has more resists/immunes.

So overall, similar speed tiers, similar power levels, but hydreigon is way more versatile to make up for the fact that v-create has 180 base power. You say hydreigon is a momentum killer, but so is switching out victini every time it gets a kill because of the stat drops.

Is that a good enough analogy for ya?
 
tbh like its still not the best analogy
victini's V create is much more spammable despite water being a common type. Victini can also go for double v create predicting a double switch and hugely punish the opposing player. Hydreigon could try to double draco but would net a much lower gain. Hydreigon's main nuke also has an immunity to it, along with both stabs being resisted by a single type.
Other than that though I would say the analogy is fair lol
 

LeoLancaster

does this still work
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Something that I feel has been overlooked a lot (I think only Hogg has mentioned it so far), is how Hydreigon restricts teambuilding. The solidity of its checks and counters, 1v1 matchups, and its survivability and utility are all important; but beyond how difficult it is to deal with for common, viable teams, how it limits diversity in teambuilding is just as important, if not moreso.

So far the discussion has focused on Hydreigon's ability to wallbreak. Many have debated how easily it can break past its checks and how much it can pivot into. Anti-ban arguments have centered on how Fairy-types counter sets without Steel coverage, and even those sets are still checked. There are also a number of viable softer checks and revenge killers. So, you can run a Fairy and another soft check such as Cobalion, Conkeldurr, or Milotic, and be mostly fine, right? Well, yes, and to a large extent that's true.

But the problem comes when you realize how stupidly limiting that is. There is a grand total of 2 Fairies that can consistently check Hydreigon over the course of a match, and they function almost identically (Cleric Sylveon and Florges). The rest (Whimsicott, Diancie, Slurpuff) have no recovery and many more limitations, such as being hard to fit on teams, prone to getting worn down quickly, etc. (not all of these apply to each Fairy).

But, why not just run softer checks and build your team to limit Hydreigon's opportunities to come in, both on hard switches and 1v1s? After all, this works fine for other powerful wallbreakers such as Mamowine and Choice Specs Sylveon. As has been said before, Hydreigon has far better typing, bulk, speed, and recovery options than anything of comparable power. It's incredibly difficult to build a team that doesn't give Hydreigon a sizable number of opportunities to come in, with bulky Water-types, Forretress, Krookodile, etc being extremely common sights. On top of this Hydreigon outspeeds 46 out of 65 UU Pokemon, meaning it has a lot of favorable 1v1 matchups as well (and its speed is definitely not poor by any stretch of the imagination).

There's a reason Sylveon has 54% usage in UU Open rounds 6-9, and at least 30% usage in every other round and overall. It's almost mandatory for Balance to run what is functionally almost the exact same set on a large majority of teams. That's insane, and is far from ideal in the context of building a healthy metagame. But even on top of how overcentralizing Hydreigon is (buzzword, I know), it still manages to break past some of the most Hydreigon-proof cores at times, thanks to its amazing coverage, great bulk, good speed, and wide variety of tools at its disposal. This is why I will be voting Ban, and I hope you will too.
 
I won't say that Hydreigon isn't kind of centralizing, when its effect on the tier is clear (though I don't think it is overcentralizing). But, well... why is Hydreigon only just being suspected now? It has been in the tier for over two years now IIRC, and there has been almost zero complaints to it being broken in the tier until Salamence was banned a couple of months back. Most of the things that have been banned once the new ORAS releases had settled, were just those new releases that were too much, or some drops that were banned pretty quickly after they dropped because of their insane power, like Salamence and Alakazam (very quickly banned in the case of Mega Gyara). I do not believe for one second that Salamence or Alakazam were the sole Pokemon keeping Hydra in check, even if they were viable checks themselves.

I think the metagame has been quite adaptable to most threats outside of the clearly borked (like the aforementioned Zam) and Hydreigon is certainly one that people can adapt to without it completely limiting / controlling their teambuilding. Because what otherwise-viable threats are kept out of high-UU solely by Hydreigon? With the possible exception of Chandelure (which is still popular enough to be nowhere near the RU cutoff point in usage), I don't really see how it restricts teambuilding that much. And to those making the excuse that it is "forcing you" to run solid checks like a good fighting type or fairy type to stop it sweeping you... well, shouldn't damn near every good team carry at least one them anyway, even if Hydreigon is banned? Pokemon like Infernape, Conkeldurr, Sylveon, scarf Heracross etc. have much more to offer than simply keeping one major threat in check.

I think Hydreigon is amazing, but I don't think it's overpowered or overcentralizing enough to warrant a ban.
 

Moutemoute

Error 404
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SCL Champion
Since fews months, you guys are killing UU.. That so sad.

As I said for Alakazam and for Salamence, it's normal if Hydreigon is amazing in UU.. yeah of course bro', he's S rank since a long time. Since a long time people handle it and I truly don't understand why now than before he has his own suspect. It's easy too scout Hydreigon's sets and it's easy to deal with him after that.

Hydreigon is just a great versatile Pokemon but like the other S ranks in UU, he has some weakness.

And when I see people who use this kind of calculations :

"252 Atk Choice Band Hydreigon Superpower vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 216-256 (57.7 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock"

Or compares Hydreigon to other Pokemon, I just want to laught and say "Wtf". Hydreigon is Hydreigon.. it's not Victini etc.. In this circumstance any Pokémon can be broken and deserve a suspect.

Welp now just need to get this reqs and said as the past suspect "Do not ban"

PS : Sorry if my english is trash..
 

ehT

:dog:
is a Contributor Alumnus
If we're going to compare Hydreigon to anybody in OU, I'd compare it to Keldeo. They're both stupidly powerful wallbreakers with identical bulk, great defensive typings that let them pivot into some of the biggest savages in their respective tiers, and really powerful ways to punish their so-called counters: Keldeo through Scald burns, and Hydreigon through its ridiculous coverage. That being said, this isn't a "what 'mon is Hydreigon most like" thread, this is an "is Hydreigon broken" thread. And these comparisons aren't worth anything unless they bring us closer to an answer to that question, since they examine the 'mons in question in a vacuum, rather than how they impact the meta around them. Keldeo isn't broken because of the ubiquity of 'mons that resist its dual STAB's, which counter no matter what set you're running, and its limiting Speed by OU standards, where you're gimping yourself if your offense team doesn't have anything base 110or higher. Does 'Dreigon, who we've established is a functionally similar 'mon, have similar setbacks here in UU? Well... no, honestly. Only two of the 'mons that resist its STAB outspeed it, those being Coba and Whims. I guess their OU counterparts in this analogy would be Lati@s / AV Torn / fat Starmie. Even ignoring the fact that Scarf Hydreigon is a thing, or that Hydreigon can easily carry the coverage to blow both of them away on the switch -- this is to say, even if the Hydreigon does nothing but click a Life Orb STAB move when there's a Coba / Whims chilling in the back -- Hydreigon will still come out on top in the long run, since neither Coba or Whims have recovery (if you say SubSeed Whims I will punch you) or more than 75 SpDef. This is the long way of saying that, unlike Keldeo, offensive switch-ins to Hydreigon really aren't a thing, even when not taking these mons' respective ways of punishing counters into account. How about slower, defensive switch ins? For Keldeo, we'd have Venu, 'Moonguss, Slowbro, select Tangrowth sets, and to lesser extent Ferro, Volcanion, and Azu. That's 7 things. What does Hydreigon have in this department? Florges, Sylveon, and Blissey. Again, ignoring the fact that Hydreigon can blow these the fuck away with proper coverage and the help of hazards, that's only 3 things in the entire tier. So what happens when, unlike I've been doing for entirety of this analogy, I take Keldeo's Scald burns and Hydreigon's coverage into account? This here is the key difference. Hydreigon's means of punishing counters -- i.e., putting them out of commission with one single prediction -- ultimately, is far, far more powerful than 12% per turn. This is why I want Hydrei to get gone, amongst all the other reasons that myself and others have listed. Nothing is safe. I cannot emphasize this enough.
 
Last edited:

LeoLancaster

does this still work
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
I won't say that Hydreigon isn't kind of centralizing, when its effect on the tier is clear (though I don't think it is overcentralizing). But, well... why is Hydreigon only just being suspected now? It has been in the tier for over two years now IIRC, and there has been almost zero complaints to it being broken in the tier until Salamence was banned a couple of months back. Most of the things that have been banned once the new ORAS releases had settled, were just those new releases that were too much, or some drops that were banned pretty quickly after they dropped because of their insane power, like Salamence and Alakazam (very quickly banned in the case of Mega Gyara). I do not believe for one second that Salamence or Alakazam were the sole Pokemon keeping Hydra in check, even if they were viable checks themselves.
The two main reasons Hydreigon is being suspected now are 1. we have a lot more threats to cover than we ever did before, which makes the limitations Hydreigon causes stand out more (and yes, Hydra is more limiting than many of the recent drops such as Sylveon and Conkeldurr), and 2. we haven't before had a metagame where both Taunt + Roost sets and AoA/Specs sets are prominent and common. When the Taunt set was initially discovered, it for the most part eclipsed AoA sets to the point of relative obscurity, meaning Fairy-types were full counters in most situations (just look at the Checks Compendium's list of Hydreigon counters; when it was created, Steel coverage was so rare that Florges was considered a full counter). Now we have to deal with both types of sets being common, on top of having more threats to cover overall as well.

I think the metagame has been quite adaptable to most threats outside of the clearly borked (like the aforementioned Zam) and Hydreigon is certainly one that people can adapt to without it completely limiting / controlling their teambuilding. Because what otherwise-viable threats are kept out of high-UU solely by Hydreigon? With the possible exception of Chandelure (which is still popular enough to be nowhere near the RU cutoff point in usage), I don't really see how it restricts teambuilding that much.
It restricts teambuilding not in what it hinders, but in how it mandates one of four Fairies on 80%+ of teams, and especially mandating what is functionally the same set on a large majority of Balance teams.

And to those making the excuse that it is "forcing you" to run solid checks like a good fighting type or fairy type to stop it sweeping you... well, shouldn't damn near every good team carry at least one them anyway, even if Hydreigon is banned? Pokemon like Infernape, Conkeldurr, Sylveon, scarf Heracross etc. have much more to offer than simply keeping one major threat in check.
Yes, pretty much every relevant pokemon "forces" you to run checks and counters. Yes, these Pokemon do offer a lot to teams. Yes, they will still be used quite a bit if Hydreigon gets banned.

But what Hydreigon does more so than anything else is force an extremely limited selection of checks. Don't want to run a Sylveon for Florges on your Balance team? Too bad, in a large majority of cases you'll be unacceptably weak to Hydreigon. Want to make a team without any Fairy-type at all? Sorry, in almost all cases you'll be Hydra food. And of course, just having a Fairy isn't enough. It's ridiculous.

For example, things such as Entei and Sylveon aren't on this level, which have a wider variety of checks and/or are much easier to keep at bay with soft checks. Want to run a Balance team without a bulky Water-type? Difficult, but Arcanine, Diancie, or sufficient pressure + soft checks will keep you safe from Entei. Want to make a team without a Steel-type? Difficult, but there are some good combinations of Poison-type + Fire-type + limiting switchins to keep you safe from Sylveon.

The best part is that a good chunk (probably a sizable majority, but it's too early to tell) of teams from the Hydreigon meta will still be viable. The ones with Hydreigon will obviously be unusable, and a few will be a bit too weak to Mega Houndoom or some other threat Hydreigon severly limits. But most will still be good. And then a whole range of possibilities open up, specifically teams without one of four or five viable Pokemon of one single type.
 
Buckle up gents, I’m back, I’ve got some stuff to say, and you’re gonna listen (or just skip and read the TL;DR summary at the end, I can’t actually force you to do anything and won’t judge if you don’t feel like reading all this :P). You bet I’m going to be super-active in this one, considering Hydreigon is my favorite pokemon of all time. Plus, I want to finally show some maturity after being on Smogon for a little over a year and on PS for 2 years, and I figure this is my chance to do so.

So after making reqs last night ago and looking over the arguments…I’ve begun re-considering my previous statement on Fluffy. Especially going over some of my old replays (both wins and losses against Hydreigon), and there are definitely pro-ban arguments that I can objectively agree with:

1. Hydreigon has NO hard counters…at the first glance. This was actually a major selling point when it was in OU in the BW metagame (at least from what I saw and read), and is even more prevalent here in the XY/ORAS UU metagame. Until you know what set your dealing with, you’re basically playing a huge gamble when you try to switch something into it, and thanks to its ungodly coverage if you’re wrong you go down a pokemon. Even when you are right, moves like Draco Meteor are still incredibly painful even to dedicated special walls:

252 SpAtk Modest Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252HP/4SpDef "De Blob" Blissey = 36.6-43.2% Any pokemon who's non supereffective STAB special attack can consistently wittle 40%+ of Blissey's health probably deserves to be suspected.

This was the same argument made when Bird-Jeezus was banned a while back (just replace hurricane spam with draco hit-and-run spam). I voted NO BAN back then, but that was when I was a wee lad in my diaper days of Smogon. Looking back at it, I would have voted ban if I had known better. Same thing for the most recent Mence suspect; I voted BAN on that because of how much pressure it put in terms of trying to determine it’s set. Hydreigon does the same thing, but not quite to the same extent (I’ll get into that in a second). Just because it's my favorite pokemon doesn’t mean it gets a free pass that these guys didn’t.

2. Hydreigon has an impact on team building: A bit of personal history for you. I got into UU and to a lesser extent RU because I thought these tiers were the perfect balance of consistency and variability when it came to teambuilding. You always had your common mons (the S and A tiers), but could viably run a lot of other things. OU, though a great tier and what I originally began PS with, started getting way to same-y for me after a while, and NU was too much of a concentrated flustercuck for teambuilding. As Leo summed it up very well, with Hydreigon around, teambuilding is significantly restricted (especially for the Cosmo and Wanda types, who on paper should be able to completely neuter Hydreigon).

That said, there are two major things from my previous anti-ban argument that I feel the pro-ban argument has not convinced me I’m wrong about yet:

1. Once you’ve determined what hydreigon set your dealing with, playing against it becomes MUCH easier for players with even moderate skill. The issue with Salamence was that typically, by the time you determined what set you were dealing with, it was already too late. With my experience with Hydreigon (both using it and fighting it with multiple sets), it doesn’t seem to have the same capacity to rip entire teams in half in one go. Once the set is revealed, your opponent can play against it by exploiting its two major downsides: if it’s running the LO, CB, or Specs set, you exploit it's good, but revenge-killable speed and type weaknesses with offensive fighting and bug checks. If it's running Scarf, you take advantage of its loss of raw power and inability to switch moves with special walls and set-up mons. SD Lucario is a HUGE proponent of the latter: switching in a predicted or locked dark pulse let's you gain +1 atk. The Hydreigon user is then forced to either stay in and try to wittle by flinch (thereby powering it up more and setting it up to ES sweep the entire team), or switch out and likely get SD'd on, again setting up an easy ES + CC sweep). By some divine witchcraft, I’ve never used nor seen the stallbreaker roost + taunt set in game, so I won’t comment on that.

2. Hydreigon’s (many) checks ARE ALREADY COMMON POKEMON IN THE TIER. While the massive jump in sylveon usage can be accredited to Hydreigon, it’s already popular as one of the best wallbreakers in UU to begin with. Furthermore, a lot of the hydreigon checks can not only force him out, but have coverage moves that can frustrate switch-ins and/or completely reset momentum in their favor, turning it into a potential liability:

· Conkeldurr can knock off items and use elemental punches + poison jab

· Infernape and Meinshao can U-turn out, dealing super-effective damage if it stays and shifting momentum if it switches (Meinshao can also knock off)

· Scarf-Heracross has both megahorn and CC, forcing cautious switches (it can also knock off)

· Darmanitan has both superpower and U-turn, and its flare blitz hits like a train

· Celebi scares out with Dazzling gleam, but also has access to Earth Power, Nasty Plot, Psychic, Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock, Leaf Storm, Giga Drain, and Recover for a plethora of possibilities.

TL;DR: after reading and considering the pro-ban arguments, there are some legitimate concerns I can agree with. There are also points of my original anti-ban argument that I think are still valid. As a result, I’ve gone from adamant NO BAN to an on-the-fence swing vote, and I challenge both sides to win my absolute favor. Fluffy is my favorite pokemon, but I want to make an unbiased, objective decision so that the last two months of this metagame can be as fun as possible (because let’s be realistic here; when Sun and Moon comes out the XY/ORAS meta will be done).

Alright, I’ve gone on long enough now. I’ll shut up and let the debate continue.
 

sparrow

kacaw
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
1. Once you’ve determined what hydreigon set your dealing with, playing against it becomes MUCH easier for players with even moderate skill. The issue with Salamence was that typically, by the time you determined what set you were dealing with, it was already too late. With my experience with Hydreigon (both using it and fighting it with multiple sets), it doesn’t seem to have the same capacity to rip entire teams in half in one go.
In some cases, by the time the full set of Hydreigon is revealed, it may already be too late. For example, under the guise of Life Orb Taunt, I may be able to show Draco + Dark Pulse + Roost to my opponent, only to have them switch in their Fairy/Blob and hit them with a Iron Tail or Superpower respectively. Using Hydreigon can sometimes involve managing your opponent’s expectations, and lulling them into a false sense of security; and in this case, isn’t incredibly difficult to pull off (see: ease of switching in + durability argument).

Once the set is revealed, your opponent can play against it by exploiting its two major downsides: if it’s running the LO, CB, or Specs set, you exploit it's good, but revenge-killable speed and type weaknesses with offensive fighting and bug checks. If it's running Scarf, you take advantage of its loss of raw power and inability to switch moves with special walls and set-up mons.
So we’ve finally figured out the set, we’re facing a Life Orb Hydreigon with either Taunt / Iron Tail / Superpower. Considering the fact that Hydreigon may have just come in on something that it hard checks/counters itself (see: Chandelure, Houndoom, Crawdaunt, Bulky Waters etc.) we now have a mind game as to what we must switch-in (see: no counters), or whether we stay in; and if we make the wrong decision: those carry on effects can be detrimental – potentially losing a Pokemon in the process.

If it’s running Scarf, we have yet another mind game, are they going to U-Turn or use an attack? I know you yourself are quite adept at using Scarf-Dreigon – it's main utility being a great revenge killer limiting the number of Pokemon that may sweep your team.

SD Lucario is a HUGE proponent of the latter: switching in a predicted or locked dark pulse let's you gain +1 atk. The Hydreigon user is then forced to either stay in and try to wittle by flinch (thereby powering it up more and setting it up to ES sweep the entire team), or switch out and likely get SD'd on, again setting up an easy ES + CC sweep).
I have pointed this out earlier in my first post: most adept Scarf-Dreigon users should have answers to Pokemon that abuse this kind of easy set-up. Also taking note of your opponent’s team, one should be aware of the risks they face during a match.

2. Hydreigon’s (many) checks ARE ALREADY COMMON POKEMON IN THE TIER. While the massive jump in sylveon usage can be accredited to Hydreigon, it’s already popular as one of the best wallbreakers in UU to begin with. Furthermore, a lot of the hydreigon checks can not only force him out, but have coverage moves that can frustrate switch-ins and/or completely reset momentum in their favor, turning it into a potential liability:

· Conkeldurr can knock off items and use elemental punches + poison jab

· Infernape and Meinshao can U-turn out, dealing super-effective damage if it stays and shifting momentum if it switches (Meinshao can also knock off)

· Scarf-Heracross has both megahorn and CC, forcing cautious switches (it can also knock off)

· Darmanitan has both superpower and U-turn, and its flare blitz hits like a train

· Celebi scares out with Dazzling gleam, but also has access to Earth Power, Nasty Plot, Psychic, Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock, Leaf Storm, Giga Drain, and Recover for a plethora of possibilities.
I am not going to discredit this point you’re making. All of these Pokemon are common in the UU tier, but which of these can directly switch-in to take a hit from Hydreigon? The implication here is that the Hydreigon user has either:
a) switched into a Volt-Switch or U-turn;
b) fainted one your Pokemon or;
c) You’ve made a fantastic double switch (thereby arguing that one can outplay Hydreigon – in my opinion: I cannot say that this happens the majority of the time).
Again, Scarf-Hydreigon in this case still beats Scarf Heracross, Darmanitan and Celebi (U-turn).
 
Last edited:
Hello. I haven't really posted anything substantial in a competitive part of Smogon before, so I'll try to give my thoughts without seeming completely clueless. Most of my experience has been using Scarf Hydreigon and playing against Scarf Hydreigon, so I'll be talking about the scarf set, and as much as I enjoy using Hydreigon, a lot of matches by the time you figure out you're dealing with a Scarf it's already blown up one or two of your important Pokemon, crippling them to the point where a Happiny could Pound them and they'd drop to the floor.

My Scarf Hydreigon doesn't carry my team at all and rarely does substantial damage.
I tend to think this as well, but then I'm on the other side of the hydra getting my tanks ripped to pieces, my walls broken and my glass cannons outsped. It's the kind of Pokemon that breaks up a team to the point where as soon as your opponent brings out the sweeper it can just casually stroll through anything since Hydreigon has eliminated all of its threats by crushing them under meteors. It's the behind the scenes breaker that does all the damage and then let's your sweeper take the glory.

Even if Scarf Hydreigon's good, it's still super easy to beat.
Not so. Its speed allows Scarf Hydreigon to outspeed most Scarves, so revenge killing with your scarf is out of the question. And by the time you figure out what its fourth coverage move is, it already managed to kill something.

I bet there's a reliable check to all Scarf Hydreigon sets. You're just complaining for the sake of complaining.
Flash Cannon, Iron Tail, Superpower, Fire Blast, between these 4 moves it destroys everything not hurt by Draco Meteor and Dark Pulse, so until you find out which coverage move it has, every time you switch your best check in you're risking it being killed by coverage. And as I've said twice before, by the time you figure out what move it's running, it's killed something or gravely injured at least one Pokemon.

Since you know (sarcasm intensifies) so much about this Pokemon, how about you give us a solution?
The thing is, right now there is no easy solution. Scarf Hydreigon is an S tier revenge killer because every match it gets at least 1 kill, usually an important kill that shifts the match's direction. So the closest thing to a solution I can come up with is banning it. Not only is Scarf Hydreigon super strong but its other sets add to the feeling of "I don't want to live" you get when you see one. UU just isn't ready for Hydreigon.

In my opinion the main threat of Hydreigon is its Scarf set, but its multitude of viable sets make it even more threatening, with its ability to wallbreak, stallbreak, revenge kill and just beat things up in general, Hydreigon is the Pokemon that often makes you consider forfeiting as soon as it gets sent in.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top