Metagame np: NU Stage 14 - City Escape (Baton Pass + Speed Boosts BANNED)

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Quite Quiet

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Q: Why not just Speed Boost?
A: Short answer: That doesn't fix the problem. We originally wanted to suspect baton pass with any boosts, however seeing how controversial this was we were only able to get approval for a suspect of speed boosts and baton pass. You could say not just suspecting speed boost is an oversight because agility pass emolga (and others) is(are) arguably far less broken than combusken or ninjask, but I firmly believe there is potential (which I've seen demonstrated) for that strategy to cause problems. I can make arguments that encore gives emolga the ability to gain free turns similar to the way substitute and protect give the speed boost users free turns, but frankly i'd like people to actually experiment with this stuff on their own, thats sort of the point of suspect testing. I don't actually believe anyone saying "I just don't think Ninjask and Agility are as big a problem as Combusken" have physically tested these strategies out to the same degree they've done so with Combusken. I mean I have people posting imports of teams with 2 memento users, 2 dual-screen setters, a combusken, and a xatu... People really are willing to go to such lengths to make these broken strategies work, and I guarantee you you'll be surprised how effective they can be if you actually give it a shot yourself.
Not going to discredit this or anything, because it's probably true to some degree. My problem with this is that you're also putting Salac Berry + Baton Pass (and others) on the same level as Combusken right now. I've tried, with multiple teams, to make this work even to a fraction of how good Combusken is, and it's just not happening. Salac Berry, and to some degree Agility/Rock Polish, are nowhere near as consistent or reliable as Speed Boost + Baton Pass is. A blanket ban like this should be the last ditch if most combinations are broken, but the only combinations that are anywhere near consistent enough for that is Speed Boost + Baton Pass (usually Combusken). You can't realistically call a combination (Agility + BP for example) broken if it's not at the very least consistent enough to win multiple games, but from my experience (playing with and against) this isn't the case.
 

Kiyo

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Not going to discredit this or anything, because it's probably true to some degree. My problem with this is that you're also putting Salac Berry + Baton Pass (and others) on the same level as Combusken right now. I've tried, with multiple teams, to make this work even to a fraction of how good Combusken is, and it's just not happening. Salac Berry, and to some degree Agility/Rock Polish, are nowhere near as consistent or reliable as Speed Boost + Baton Pass is. A blanket ban like this should be the last ditch if most combinations are broken, but the only combinations that are anywhere near consistent enough for that is Speed Boost + Baton Pass (usually Combusken). You can't realistically call a combination (Agility + BP for example) broken if it's not at the very least consistent enough to win multiple games, but from my experience (playing with and against) this isn't the case.
Just a random thought, not really serious discussion but:

The more I consider Speed Boost + Baton Pass as the suspect the more my brain hurts when trying to imagine that clause being displayed "No Baton Pass + Speed Boosting move + Boosting another stat and/or Baton Pass + ability Speed Boost + any other boost and/or Baton Pass + ability Speed Boost" I'm sure theres a simpler way to phrase that, but I don't think theres a way around baton pass chains becoming a thing again if we don't hypothetically include the no other boosts in the clause which seems way more complicated than it's worth.

edit: also fwiw i agree with most of the points you made to a certain extent, but i'd like to remind people that the suspect test serves as an opportunity for the community to decide its fate. it's not just a formality before something gets banned like some users seem to view it as. (not directed at you) D:
 

erisia

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I'll probably make a bigger post about this suspect later, but has anyone considered the possibility of Swords Dance / Calm Mind / Nasty Plot / Tail Glow passing to a Combusken recipient (i.e. reverse Chicken Pass)? If this turns out to be overpowered after Speed Boost + Baton Pass is banned then there's going to be egg on a lot of people's faces. A set of Flamethrower / Focus Blast / Hidden Power Electric / Protect or Flare Blitz / Low Kick / Thunder Punch / Protect could be very threatening under these circumstances but idk whether it would be broken or not as Prankster T-Wave and other options would still be available to stop it.
 
Just a random thought, not really serious discussion but:

The more I consider Speed Boost + Baton Pass as the suspect the more my brain hurts when trying to imagine that clause being displayed "No Baton Pass + Speed Boosting move + Boosting another stat and/or Baton Pass + ability Speed Boost + any other boost and/or Baton Pass + ability Speed Boost" I'm sure theres a simpler way to phrase that, but I don't think theres a way around baton pass chains becoming a thing again if we don't hypothetically include the no other boosts in the clause which seems way more complicated than it's worth.

edit: also fwiw i agree with most of the points you made to a certain extent, but i'd like to remind people that the suspect test serves as an opportunity for the community to decide its fate. it's not just a formality before something gets banned like some users seem to view it as. (not directed at you) D:
"No Pokémon may have the ability Speed Boost in Combination with the move Baton Pass."

Kiyo edit: right... but the existing clause is in place for a reason. a simple speed boost + bp ban leaves the door open for chain passing to be a thing again, something thats been shown time and time again in ou. see: previous bp nerfs and discussion thread
 
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I probably don't have much to add to what has already been said but here are my two cents based on what I've experienced in the ladder:

I personally didn't find SpeedPass to be actually broken. Annoying? Yes, but definitely not broken. In itself SpeedPass is a kind of a shaky strategy (imo) in view of how frail and/or easily revenge killed, be it by priority or something holding a Focus Sash, some bp final recipients really are. But at the same time, it puts an insanely high amount of pressure on the opposing team since they absolute cannot let it happen safely. But, isn't it the same for any other strat? The only difference I see is that this one can be accomplished in no more than 3 turns if everything goes smoothly—it happens all too fast. Choke, even if just once, and you're done. The tier doesn't have a blank answer to it.

Anyways, surprisingly I think I've faced no more than a couple of teams using Chicken Pass, and only lost to it once. Ninjask was, overall, far more common which is funny because Conbusken can actually scare things off on its own so I thought I'd see it more often, but that's neither here nor there. At any case, as worrysome as this cheap trick is, I don't think it is limiting teambuilding so much as a few moves here or there, so as of now I am inclined to vote against a ban. I'll play a few more games to make up my mind before the voting thread goes up
 

Shadestep

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After reading Kiyo's post from a couple days back in which he said that you should first try out other Speed Passing strategies, I decided to try out Emolgapass for myself. Here is the set I used:


Emolga @ Leftovers
Ability: Motor Drive
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Encore
- Agility
- Baton Pass

This set is slightly different than the one ryan posted in this thread earlier, but I feel this set is a bit more optimal as it allows Emolga to get off Speed Boosts more safely, as well as getting in recipients easier via Substitute. I feel this is really needed as Emolga shares a lot of weaknesses with common recipients like Abomasnow, making it tough to get off an Agility safely.

This problem is I think the main reason why Agility/RP-pass isn't really broken, and the problem lays with Speed Boost users, with mostly Combusken. Agility/RP users need to create free turns in a more creative ways, via Encore for example, in Emolga's case, rather than being able to Protect multiple times and get speed boosts 'for free', while also having insanely good type synergy with Xatu, in Combusken's case. I don't really think that Chickenpass is broken either, however. It has its countermeasures, and using Combusken gives Pyroar and Magmortar free switch ins for example, allowing (especially Pyroar) to pressure Combusken as it can hit it with a strong Hyper Voice, which obliterates both Combusken and Xatu (does 50-60% to Combusken, does 70-80% to Xatu, if Life Orb), and Magmortar, who can freely keep spamming Thunderbolt as it will always break Combusken's substitute, and comes really close to OHKOing Xatu. Of course there are plenty of other countermeasures, and you really don't have to go out of your way in teambuilder to use something extremely gimmicky to go ahead and beat Chickenpass. It's something annoying that will mess you up if you play on auto-pilot and let it get up Speed Boosts, but it's not broken or overcentralizing, in my opinion. I haven't read any very convincing pro-ban arguments, but same goes for no-ban, so I'm still kind-of on the fence.

Anyways, I have been playing a buttload of games on the ladder and have used some cool sets with success during the suspect, so might as well share them!


Haunter @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Energy Ball
- Dazzling Gleam
This thing is a beast. It kills so much stuff, and does crazy stuff like 2HKOing Skuntank after SR. People don't use Ghost-resist nowadays and just rely on their Lanturns to take Haunter, Mismag, Rotom etc on. With Specs Haunter + something like Magmortar you can easily overload more defensive teams as Ghost-Poison coverage is something people don't have much for.


Mesprit @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
This Mon has won me so many games, it's actually insane. Crosprit is something Evan showed me during NUPL but I never used it before, until recently. It's hella good and people on the ladder don't know how to deal with it. Ofcourse remove Dark-types first etc etc, but yeah, give it a try! It also murders Stall-teams, from what I've experienced myself. The only thing that really hard-walls it is Roar Steelix, but once its leftovers gets knocked off it will become much easier to plow through it.
 
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Martin

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I'm probably not going to get reqs 'cause I'm still new to the tier and haven't really been focusing too hard on getting them (if anything, I'm using this suspect test to start learning the tier before I am able to cripple my rating on my main alt) but one of the two teams I've been using is a team with Speed Boost pass Combusken+CM Xatu and this is just disgustingly uncompetitive. Combusken has an insanely easy time getting up lots of boosts and if it can get a sub up to pass to Xatu there really isn't much that your opponent can do to stop it getting up a CM outside of going to something like Sash Aurorus on the turn Combusken uses BP or so that you can KO it through sub while being safe from it's Stored Power or getting Specs Swellow or something in on the turn Combusken gets to +1 to maybe kill it through sub (I've not seen this scenario and am unsure of how realistic a scenario it is anyway so idk if it'd OHKO Combusken), and even if you can't get a CM up your Stored Power is going to hurt a lot. I'm going to make a team to test NinjaPass too before I decide whether I think that Combusken or Speed Boost+Baton Pass is the broken element, but I just thought I'd weigh in a little with my (albeit limited) experience.
 
I probably don't have much to add to what has already been said but here are my two cents based on what I've experienced in the ladder:

I personally didn't find SpeedPass to be actually broken. Annoying? Yes, but definitely not broken. In itself SpeedPass is a kind of a shaky strategy (imo) in view of how frail and/or easily revenge killed, be it by priority or something holding a Focus Sash, some bp final recipients really are. But at the same time, it puts an insanely high amount of pressure on the opposing team since they absolute cannot let it happen safely. But, isn't it the same for any other strat? The only difference I see is that this one can be accomplished in no more than 3 turns if everything goes smoothly—it happens all too fast. Choke, even if just once, and you're done. The tier doesn't have a blank answer to it.

Anyways, surprisingly I think I've faced no more than a couple of teams using Chicken Pass, and only lost to it once. Ninjask was, overall, far more common which is funny because Combusken can actually scare things off on its own so I thought I'd see it more often, but that's neither here nor there. At any case, as worrysome as this cheap trick is, I don't think it is limiting teambuilding so much as a few moves here or there, so as of now I am inclined to vote against a ban. I'll play a few more games to make up my mind before the voting thread goes up
yea its broken lol

So near the end of my reqs campaign, I wanted to try out chickenpass, not expecting much. I had dappled with regular bp before but not much had really come of it, as priority or good prediction usually stopped it in its tracks. I was astounded at how easily it broke opposing teams. Most other speedpassing mons, like ninjask, dont have good bulk, wisp, good type synergy w/ top receivers, and/or are hazard weak. Comparing Combusken to regular speedpass is fallacious in the sense that combusken has tools that other speedpass users would die for, and it can already utilize what it's given very well (i.e, wisp, evio bulk, syergy w/ receivers, etc.). You mention sash users; the only really relevant sash user is jynx, and if you just protect and pass to something like malamar, you're fine. There is no definitive breaker of chickenpass (aside from crap like aggron, which isn't taking a wisp too well.)

Also, I see a lot of people sayng "well, I don't see it a lot". JUST BECAUSE IT IS NOT SEEN ON EVERY TEAM DOES NOT MEAN IT ISN'T BROKEN. I can chickenpass out to CM xatu, get up 2 CMs, get 2 kills, and be forced to switch out. There are so many oppurtunities for chickenpass to happen, and in my view, this is what makes it really broken. You have multiple oppurtunities to break the opposition. After I take out Xatu, say, from Piloswine's Ice Shard, I can just go out to something else, and resume regular play. Then, when the time is right, I can just go back into chicken and repeat the process. Chickenpass teams are perfectly capable of operating normally without boosts, as well. This makes it even harder to play againt, as this means you're never really able to neuter the strategy.

Lastly, NU is a slow tier. The fastest relevant mon would be something like a scarf scyther or primeape, which are both easily checked in the cycle of chickenpass, thorugh WoW, Xatu, etc. The versatility that it brings to the table is tremendous in this sense. Facing a scyther? Pass out to SD rhydon and sweep. Facing a kabutops? Pass out to Samurott and sweep. There is no shortage of options here. Also, any sane person accounts for chickenpass when building. It's pretty much mandatory to have ways to deal with it, however futile these ways may be.
 

Blast

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I laddered with Ninjask for 30 games (going 26-4) and I'm pretty surprised people are reporting back with such negative results. Out of the few games I lost, there was about one instance where it truly would have made a difference had I used Combusken instead of Ninjask. (Other than that, I would have lost regardless.) I mean, I guess technically speaking for a lot of the games that I won, it might have been easier to win with Combusken, but from my experiences it's being incredibly overexaggerated.

So far itt most people have been circling around two main points: a) Combusken's typing is a lot better suited for passing and b) its movepool is far better and less predictable. To tackle point a: Xatu is not the only recipient you can pass to. Yes, it's the most dangerous if you can successfully pass to it, but part of what makes Speed pass dangerous is that there's a whole team you can potentially pass it to. The team I used to ladder was just my lab team with Ninjask over Combusken and Defog Shiftry over SD, which utilizes numerous potential recipients (with varying resistances) that can run through different kinds of teams when given Speed boosts. If your Speed pass team completely falls apart if you can't pass to Xatu specifically, then that's not a good team to begin with. People have also pointed out that the SR weakness is incredibly troublesome for Ninjask, but there are numerous ways to keep hazards away and I find they're much simpler to execute in practice than they might seem.

To tackle point b: I will not deny that Combusken's sheer versatility makes it more effective at Speed passing, with several offensive sets to play mindgames with its opponent and Will-O-Wisp to make it easier to bring in recipients safely. But I feel like that's another case of how people are just comparing Ninjask unfavorably to Combusken rather than looking at it objectively. Using my lab team as an example again, the core of Xatu, Malamar, and Rhydon are all fairly bulky Pokemon and generally don't have much trouble chewing a hit, even without a burned opponent (especially considering how 2 of them have recovery). Does a burn make it easier to come in? Of course. But Will-O-Wisp just serves to improve the strategy, not validate/invalidate it.

Anyway, it all comes back to being a matchup-based strategy that can decide certain games right from team preview, but at the same time being adaptable enough to hold its own against most playstyles. And like ryan said, that doesn't make it automatically broken, but I firmly believe that banning Combusken isn't going to solve any problems.

Some replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nususpecttest-392166659
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nususpecttest-393387183
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-378912547
 
Unrelated to the suspect talk but has anyone noticed Mawile coming back more into the meta? Maybe its just because Ive been peeking at all the workshop teams but I've noticed it on the sim as well. Its a bit of a breath of fresh air. I guess that can be said for all the other Steel types which are seeing more niche use like Bronzor and Metang. The three I've mentioned are still eclipsed by Steelix but I have noticed that other choices for that Steel slot have gained some usage recently.
 
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Metang and Bronzor do a much better job of checking Tauros than Steelix does, which gives them some wiggle room in the metagame. This is very much untrue for Mawile, which is why I still don't care to use it much, even though it's otherwise such a great defensive pivot. Stealth Rock setters in general have shifted significantly more toward Pokemon that can reliably take on Tauros, which has caused an influx of Rhydon and Torterra. Regirock would probably pick up in usage for its ability to check Tauros as well if not for its poor matchup against the aforementioned more common Tauros checks. Torterra in particular does a great job of showing up both Tauros and most of its common checks, which has made it particularly strong right now.
 

Kiyo

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Voting reached a majority, if you're a qualified voter and forgot to do so you'll still have a few days to get it done and get the vote to qualify for the TC badge http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-nu-stage-14-suspect-voting.3576340/page-4#post-6882943

As a result of the 54.6% of the votes that were for Ban, Baton Pass and Speed Boosts will be banned from NU.

Please use this thread to discuss the new metagame (I don't personally think it will be too much different but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
 
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AAamen

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Honestly I think the metagame can only obtain positive profit from this ban because baton pass no centralized or supported the metagame
g_g baton pass
 

erisia

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Yeah I don't think anyone will miss this strategy and it'll be nice not seeing it any more. Not sure if it was ban worthy but I guess I'm glad it's gone regardless. Don't think this will change the metagame much other than making ladder a more pleasant experience. ^_^
 

The Goomy

Whitest Mexican Alive
My only question is, at what point do you just ban BP as a move in this tier?

Constantly changing the restrictions on BP makes the tier less approachable to new players IMO and doesn't create value for the tier due to the lack of consistency.

We've seen things like CM Barrier Musharna pass, Curse Pass, and even Lopunny pass have consistent success in NU, even at a high level (see Kiyo's win over Teddeh in SPL).

I personally didn't find speed pass to be broken, but I do think it's blatantly obvious that NU has far less tools than the higher tiers to combat BP strategies.

We don't have automatic priority machines like Talonflame. We don't have (many) good taunt users. We have like 2 good wall breakers (Aggron and Torterra). We have no Unaware Pokemon barring Bibarel (flames btw). We don't have many set up sweepers that can directly threaten BP strategies either.

Most importantly, team building is so restricted in NU due to the multitude of viable threats that have to be accounted for by blanket checks moreso than in any other tier I've played. This gives far less leg room for handling BP, and the balanced builds that the meta dictates get shredded by BP.

At what point as a community do we consider removing this point of contention from our tier as a whole?

I feel like it would have these advantages:

1. Make the tier more approachable to new players. It is much easier to explain why BP as a whole is detrimental to the tier than just certain variants of it.

2. Eliminates future potential issues with BP as a strategy. (For example a BP user that fails in RU due to Fletchinder's prescence drops to NU).

3. Sets the prescedent that a lower tier can go against the grain and make a change that benefits the tier from a competitive and enjoyment standpoint.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't really think anyone gets fulfillment when they win or lose to CM pass, or SD pass, or Cosmic Power pass.

Most of those games are heavily matchup dependent and often favor the BP user because it's so difficult to prepare for the many threats we have in the meta as is and we have very limited options to counteract BP with.

The collateral of losing dry passing is just not nearly as important as eliminating the many (ever evolving, ever changing) negative impacts of BP, as we've seen with the repeated suspects and bans of aspects of the strategy.

I hope this can open a good discussion about BP's effect on the metagame.

The things I would most like to see is people's opinion on:

1. BP's positive impacts on NU.
2. BP's negative impacts on NU.

Thank you all for reading~
 
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Martin

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I don't think that outright banning BP will ever be the correct solution to this. The fact is that BP's primary mechanic (switching it's user out) is no more unhealthy than U-turn or Volt Switch, and it is a really useful tool for anything that gets it with no other VoltTurning moves (and there are a lot of legal drypassers, even if the viability of some is questionable). Take Mawile as a prime example of a 'mon that puts drypass to good use, as well as Musharna--who can use it to grab momentum or dodge a boosted Pursuit if it hasn't got up any CMs. I think that BP is balanced when passing boosts too for the most part; you have stuff like SD pass Leafeon, CM pass Mush and even stuff like Stockpile+WP pass Drifblim if you're feeling particularly experimental. The fact is that BP as a move isn't a problem, but rather the way that it was being abused by Pokémon like Ninjask and Combusken. For what it's worth, I think even really niche methods of speed passing like Solrock pass were straight up unbalanced and that SD pass, NP pass, CM pass, Stockpile/Cosmic Power pass are not on the basis that passing speed to something that can boost offensive stats quickly or to something which has stupidly high offenses which are held back by their inability to outpace anything creates unhealthy scenarios which wouldn't be problematic without speed being passed, and if anything it can be likened to giving Archeops Illuminate in the respect that it artificially creates an overpowered Pokémon with little effort on the speed passer's part. If you were to pass +2 speed to something like LO Magmortar or SD Samurott it is safe to say that it'd be more dangerous than, say, having Mr. Mime pass the former a Nasty Plot boost or the having Musharna pass the latter a Calm Mind/Barrier on the basis that it has taken the middling speed which holds it back and completely negating the issue as opposed to buffing it's already-insane SpA stat or by allowing it to set up by BPing in against something which the passer baits out (e.g. Combusken baiting out Ground-types or Ninjask baiting out Rock- or Fire-types--both of which Samurott eats for breakfast). At +2 it can no longer be revenge killed by things like Tauros while still hitting like a fucking truck, and and this makes it much harder to deal with even before you consider that it or another teammate can be passed to again later in the match--which is why I think that speed is where the line should be drawn. Sure it's annoying as hell to be faced with someone who has bolstered an already-high stat, but the counterplay to this is much easier to come by than it is for speed passing.

This is just me though, and tbf I'm typing this when I'm really tired so there are probably a load of holes in this. Basically all I'm saying is that I don't personally think that there is any need to restrict Baton Pass further or to outright ban it.
 
It has come to my attention that the ban has not been implemented on the NU ladder. Marty and xfix were working on this, and it should hopefully be corrected soon.

Responding to The Goomy's post: I find that Baton Pass in its current state is not only not a problem for the tier, but also healthy for it. Dry-passing brings a lot of defensive Pokemon to life in this tier. Mawile and non-CM Musharna would see nearly zero play without it because they would often be terrible momentum sucks. I also don't find stat-passing to be problematic when you can't pass Speed. We have a ton of scary wallbreakers as it is, so passing offensive boosts will often lose you a moveslot on most Pokemon. Pivoting Musharna really wants Thunder Wave to help against stuff like Skuntank and most of the Pokemon that it can defensively check without immediately threatening. Mawile doesn't mind losing the slot too badly, but missing out on Toxic gives Rhydon a free switch. Scyther can SD Pass, but then it misses out on U-turn to check Malamar and pivot while dealing damage. Anything else is basically a dedicated Baton Passer, which means that rather than giving up a moveslot, you're basically giving up a Pokemon slot in hopes that your strategy works out. This is what separates passing non-Speed stats from passing Speed; Speed Boost passers could passively gain boosts, which meant they kept all of their moveslots, while Agility/Rock Polish passers forced you to have priority or the appropriate defensive check to handle another offensive Pokemon.

Passing defensive boosts is a bit different because of the same reason why passing offensive boosts is balanced: we have a ton of really strong Pokemon that are primarily checked offensively. What makes this better is that you pretty much just have Lopunny, Solrock, and Lunatone as potential passers. Drifblim and Mawile can also Stockpile pass I suppose, but considering the state of the metagame and the inability to boost past +3, I don't think they're nearly as effective. I could see where passing defensive boosts could be problematic (Xatu and Malamar again, mostly), but I don't think that they are because of the opportunity cost of missing out on a team slot and the ever-critting nature of the game. If they do become a problem down the line, I'd be willing to consider a Baton Pass suspect myself, but it also comes down to the entirety of the council as to how we'd handle it if it needed to be handled.
 
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