SPOILERS! Necrozma Dusk Mane/Dawn Wing [If it wasn't obvious spoilers]

Nexus

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#1
Necrozma-Dusk Mane
Type: Psychic/Steel
Ability: Prism Armor / Prism Armor (HA)
Base Stats: 97/157/127/113/109/77 (BST: 680)

Necrozma-Dawn Wings
Type: Psychic/Ghost
Ability: Prism Armor / Prism Armor (HA)
Base Stats: 97/113/109/157/127/77 (BST: 680)

Ultra Necrozma
Type: Psychic/Dragon
Ability: Neuroforce / Neuroforce (HA)
Stats: 97/167/97/167/97/129 (BST: 754)

1 - Moonlight
1 - Morning Sun
1 - Charge Beam
1 - Mirror Shot
1 - Metal Claw
1 - Confusion
7 - Slash
13 - Stored Power
19 - Rock Blast
23 - Night Slash
31 - Gravity
37 - Psycho Cut
43 - Power Gem
47 - Autotomize
50 - Photon Geyser
53 - Stealth Rock
59 - Iron Defense
67 - Wring Out
73 - Prismatic Laser


TM03 Psyshock
TM04 Calm Mind
TM06 Toxic
TM10 Hidden Power
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM21 Frustration
TM22 Solar Beam
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM29 Psychic
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM33 Reflect
TM39 Rock Tomb
TM40 Aerial Ace
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM46 Thief
TM48 Round
TM56 Fling
TM57 Charge Beam
TM59 Brutal Swing
TM63 Embargo
TM65 Shadow Claw
TM67 Smart Strike
TM68 Giga Impact
TM69 Rock Polish
TM71 Stone Edge
TM73 Thunder Wave
TM74 Gyro Ball
TM75 Swords Dance
TM78 Bulldoze
TM80 Rock Slide
TM81 X-Scissor
TM87 Swagger
TM88 Sleep Talk
TM90 Substitute
TM91 Flash Cannon
TM92 Trick Room
TM97 Dark Pulse
TM100 Confide


Signal Beam
Iron Head
Earth Power
Gravity
Magnet Rise
Iron Defense
Dragon Pulse
Hyper Voice
Snore
Knock Off
Heat Wave
Shock Wave
Outrage
Recycle
Stealth Rock
Telekinesis
Ally Switch


Notes:
  • Neuroforce increases the damage dealt by Super-effective attacks.
  • Ultra Necrozma is a forme that can only be accessed by a Necrozma DM or DW holding Ultranecrozium Z
  • Necrozma DM gains Sunsteel Strike while Necrozma DW gains Moongeist Beam upon fusion, the last move in its moveset is replaced assuming it is not a special/unique move like Photo geyser or Prismatic Beam.
  • Photon Geyser: The user attacks a target with a pillar of light. This move inflicts Attack or Sp. Atk damage—whichever stat is higher for the user. Psychic / Special / 100 Power / 100% Accuracy / 5 PP
  • Light That Burns the Sky: This attack inflicts Attack or Sp. Atk damage—whichever stat is higher for the user, Necrozma. This move ignores the target’s Ability. Psychic / Special / 200 Power / 1 PP (Z-Move, Base move: Photon Geyser)
  • The turn you become Ultra Necrozma, you press an "Ultra Burst" button, where Mega/Z-Move usually shows up. This prevents you from using your Z-Move the same turn you Ultra Burst. Necrozma uses Ultra's speed stat on the turn it Ultra Bursts.
  • Z-Move and Ultra Burst are only related through Ultranecronium-Z. You don't actually use up your Z-Move until you use Light That Burns The Sky with Necrozma
  • Photon Geyser and Light That Burns The Sky use the opposing Pokemon's Special Defense to calculate damage regardless if it used the user's Attack or Special Attack stat.
 
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#3
So, we now know that Ultra Necrozma will be able to use solgaleo and Lunala's signature move, so, movesets such as SD, photon geyser, Outrage and Sunsteel Strike or Calm Mind, photon geyser, Moongeist Beam and Focus Blast might actually be lit !
 
#4
Questions:
  • How much does neuroforce increase damage?
  • Photon Geyser and LTBTS are classified as special. If used by something with higher attack than special attack, will the damage be calculated using the enemy's defence or special defence. What if the stats are equal?
  • How does one obtain DM and DW in game? Does it work like Kyurem?
 
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#6
It's kind of weird to have essentially two different mons that can both transform into the same in-battle form, and it makes me think that the viability of Dawn Wings and Dusk Mane in Ubers is going to hinge on which one can transform the most easily. Dusk Mane probably wins there, so Dawn Wings may see less use as a result.
 
#7
It's kind of weird to have essentially two different mons that can both transform into the same in-battle form, and it makes me think that the viability of Dawn Wings and Dusk Mane in Ubers is going to hinge on which one can transform the most easily. Dusk Mane probably wins there, so Dawn Wings may see less use as a result.
I guessing that an Necrozma holding its z crystal will be tiered differently from one not holding it.
 
#8
Their viability will depend on whether physical or special variants of Ultra Necrozma are preferred, due to EVs and IVs and also Sunsteel Strike/Moongeist Beam.

Though tbh on an SD UN set, I'd probably go with EQ over Sunsteel Strike or even Outrage. Steel/Psychic/Dragon is checked hard by just about every steel type out there, but EQ gives you at least neutral coverage on everything except Skarm and Cele. You could even go EQ over Outrage since it's such an unreliable move, and it leads to the same result, though not getting STAB boosts kinda sucks. That said, Ground/Psychic/Steel hits more things for SE damage than Ground/Psychic/Dragon.

Special UN has better coverage options. And by that I mean it gets Heat Wave. Heat Wave and Photon Geyser hit quite a bit, then you can pick up Power Gem/Earth Power/Dragon Pulse for the third slot and Calm Mind I guess for the fourth.

I don't think we can say for certain just yet whether physical or special UN will be better because SD is such a good boosting move on something that fast (It outspeeds Marshadow! Suck it, Spectral Thief), but fire-type coverage is so useful.

idk just theorymonning out of my ass here
 
#9
So both of the fused Necrozma formes turn out to be underwhelming, especially Dusk Wings - Prism Armor is not going to save it from its double Ghost and Dark weaknesses. It's a straight downgrade from Lunala.
 
#10
Their viability will depend on whether physical or special variants of Ultra Necrozma are preferred, due to EVs and IVs and also Sunsteel Strike/Moongeist Beam.

Though tbh on an SD UN set, I'd probably go with EQ over Sunsteel Strike or even Outrage. Steel/Psychic/Dragon is checked hard by just about every steel type out there, but EQ gives you at least neutral coverage on everything except Skarm and Cele. You could even go EQ over Outrage since it's such an unreliable move, and it leads to the same result, though not getting STAB boosts kinda sucks. That said, Ground/Psychic/Steel hits more things for SE damage than Ground/Psychic/Dragon.

Special UN has better coverage options. And by that I mean it gets Heat Wave. Heat Wave and Photon Geyser hit quite a bit, then you can pick up Power Gem/Earth Power/Dragon Pulse for the third slot and Calm Mind I guess for the fourth.

I don't think we can say for certain just yet whether physical or special UN will be better because SD is such a good boosting move on something that fast (It outspeeds Marshadow! Suck it, Spectral Thief), but fire-type coverage is so useful.

idk just theorymonning out of my ass here
I was just assuming you would initiate the transformation immediately so it'd be fine to invest in Special Attack while using Dusk Mane as the vehicle for transformation, but you're right that since you have more bulk in DW/DM, there might be instances where you'd delay the transformation. Maybe setting up SD as Dusk Mane and then transforming to outspeed and plow through whatever you're up against. Or if you're up against a dark/steel type and don't want to waste your Z-move.
 
#11
Okay, so Dawn Wings is absolutely trash, the only upside over Lunala being a (most likely) better movepool. Dusk Mane is actually pretty decent. As for UN, I see the Z crystal that contains it going to Ubers at minimum, potentially to AG. A Psychic/Dragon type who unleashes an ever changing 200 base power nuke that doesn’t give away a set (due to it working like Photon Geyser) which then transforms it into a Pokémon with an Expert Belt baked in and absolutely bonkers stats. It also has attacking stats that are around the levels of Deoxys-Attack but actually decent bulk, letting a defensive set be possible if overshadowed. It also has a great speed tier at 129, outpacing a good number of Pokémon in Ubers. Don’t forget that Necrozma has reliable recovery, set up on both sides and STAB stored power. All in all, UN is going to AG most likely.

As for regular Necrozma, I think Photon Geyser will give it an absolutely huge boon, even without UN. It allows for more unpredictable sets. I’m gonna wrap it up here since my phones about to die, but I see Necrozma going up to BL2 or even UU.
 
#12
Or if you're up against a dark/steel type and don't want to waste your Z-move.
I don't think transforming uses up your Z-move.

Okay, so Dawn Wings is absolutely trash, the only upside over Lunala being a (most likely) better movepool. Dusk Mane is actually pretty decent. As for UN, I see the Z crystal that contains it going to Ubers at minimum, potentially to AG. A Psychic/Dragon type who unleashes an ever changing 200 base power nuke that doesn’t give away a set (due to it working like Photon Geyser) which then transforms it into a Pokémon with an Expert Belt baked in and absolutely bonkers stats. It also has attacking stats that are around the levels of Deoxys-Attack but actually decent bulk, letting a defensive set be possible if overshadowed. It also has a great speed tier at 129, outpacing a good number of Pokémon in Ubers. Don’t forget that Necrozma has reliable recovery, set up on both sides and STAB stored power. All in all, UN is going to AG most likely.

As for regular Necrozma, I think Photon Geyser will give it an absolutely huge boon, even without UN. It allows for more unpredictable sets. I’m gonna wrap it up here since my phones about to die, but I see Necrozma going up to BL2 or even UU.
Also noteworthy: 66% recovery if it's facing Primal Groudon, the most used mon in ubers.
 
#13
I don't think transforming uses up your Z-move.



Also noteworthy: 66% recovery if it's facing Primal Groudon, the most used mon in ubers.
I’m pretty sure you use the move and then transform into UN as a secondary effect. Why else would holding a Z crystal be required? If it was just to hold it, why not a Pokémon specific item like how it works with Giratina?
 

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#14
It's a little difficult to theorymon without exact transformation mechanics so I'm going with a few assumptions here from the one clip I've seen.
- Necrozma's transformation to Ultra Necrozma is separate from Z moving and is more like Mega Evolving
- If it is like Mega Evolution, then it uses the Mega Evolution Turn order mechanics from Gen 7 when Speeds change
- Necrozma is incapable of using Light That Burns The Sky in its base fused forme and must transform first.
- The transformation is not forced (so not like Primal Reversion).

With that in mind, I can see Necrozma doing something like this

Necrozma-DM @ Ultranecrozium-Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Photon Geyser
- Earthquake
- Sunsteel Strike

Much like Mega Gyarados' type change, Necrozma-DM can utilize its base forme to set up on a variety of mons in its base forme thanks to its massive list of resistances and Prism Armor to make it difficult to instantly remove. Being a Steel type in its base forme allows Necrozma to deter Fairy type checks to its evolved forme, and when it no longer needs to that it can transform and make use of its Speed and Neuroforce. In some cases, it might be a good idea to use the base forme to take a hit, attack back, and then transform and use the immediate Speed change to strike again. Useful when taking on opponents such as Dark Arceus who'd otherwise just melt its Ultra forme. Sunsteel Strike can be replaced with Outrage for STAB in Ultra forme, but I think SS in general is better.

It does, however, have some flaws. Dark and Ghost type moves aren't covered well regardless of forme, so Pokemon such as Marshadow, Scarf Yveltal, Mega Gengar (big weakness here), Mega Sableye, Mega Gyarados (note that Mold Breaker doesn't cut through Prism Armor), and Wisp Dark Arceus can work around either forme. Scarfers in general give its Ultra forme issues, and once it turns into Ultra Necrozma, its switch in opportunities are rather limited.
 
#16
I’m pretty sure you use the move and then transform into UN as a secondary effect. Why else would holding a Z crystal be required? If it was just to hold it, why not a Pokémon specific item like how it works with Giratina?
Actually, we see in this video that Ultra Necrozma take shape while uing photon heyser, but not its Z move
 
#17
I’m pretty sure you use the move and then transform into UN as a secondary effect. Why else would holding a Z crystal be required? If it was just to hold it, why not a Pokémon specific item like how it works with Giratina?
So that it can then use a Z-move. :p

We've seen a clip of it transforming and then using Photon Geyser. We've also seen that Necrozma is in Ultra form at the point the Z-move is initiated. So the Z move itself is definitely not part of the transformation.

Actually, we see in this video that Ultra Necrozma take shape while uing photon heyser, but not its Z move
Wrong video :p
 

Tiksi

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#19
It's a little difficult to theorymon without exact transformation mechanics so I'm going with a few assumptions here from the one clip I've seen.
- Necrozma's transformation to Ultra Necrozma is separate from Z moving and is more like Mega Evolving
- If it is like Mega Evolution, then it uses the Mega Evolution Turn order mechanics from Gen 7 when Speeds change
- Necrozma is incapable of using Light That Burns The Sky in its base fused forme and must transform first.
- The transformation is not forced (so not like Primal Reversion).

With that in mind, I can see Necrozma doing something like this

Necrozma-DM @ Ultranecrozium-Z
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Photon Geyser
- Earthquake
- Sunsteel Strike

Much like Mega Gyarados' type change, Necrozma-DM can utilize its base forme to set up on a variety of mons in its base forme thanks to its massive list of resistances and Prism Armor to make it difficult to instantly remove. Being a Steel type in its base forme allows Necrozma to deter Fairy type checks to its evolved forme, and when it no longer needs to that it can transform and make use of its Speed and Neuroforce. In some cases, it might be a good idea to use the base forme to take a hit, attack back, and then transform and use the immediate Speed change to strike again. Useful when taking on opponents such as Dark Arceus who'd otherwise just melt its Ultra forme. Sunsteel Strike can be replaced with Outrage for STAB in Ultra forme, but I think SS in general is better.

It does, however, have some flaws. Dark and Ghost type moves aren't covered well regardless of forme, so Pokemon such as Marshadow, Scarf Yveltal, Mega Gengar (big weakness here), Mega Sableye, Mega Gyarados (note that Mold Breaker doesn't cut through Prism Armor), and Wisp Dark Arceus can work around either forme. Scarfers in general give its Ultra forme issues, and once it turns into Ultra Necrozma, its switch in opportunities are rather limited.
Agree with SD but what does Sunsteel do that Geyser, EQ, or Stone Edge doesnt? Stone Edge seems particularly helpful for non-scarf Yveltal and for MegaMence. Gives some kind of chance to bust through cele too.
 

Jibaku

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#20
Sunsteel is for STAB in base forme and for removing Xerneas, else you'll need a boost to do so. STAB in base forme means you can SD Sunsteel Strike -> transform -> EQ/SS a Dark Arceus switching in on the Swords Dance and destroy it (assuming this is how the turn order mechanics work). It also prevents Necrozma from losing outright to Arceus-Fairy in Ultra forme.
If we go by the assumption that Photon Geyser is like reverse Psystrike, you're using that to hit Mega Mence anyways

But yes Stone Edge is usable I think.
 
#23
Okay, so Dawn Wings is absolutely trash, the only upside over Lunala being a (most likely) better movepool. Dusk Mane is actually pretty decent. As for UN, I see the Z crystal that contains it going to Ubers at minimum, potentially to AG. A Psychic/Dragon type who unleashes an ever changing 200 base power nuke that doesn’t give away a set (due to it working like Photon Geyser) which then transforms it into a Pokémon with an Expert Belt baked in and absolutely bonkers stats. It also has attacking stats that are around the levels of Deoxys-Attack but actually decent bulk, letting a defensive set be possible if overshadowed. It also has a great speed tier at 129, outpacing a good number of Pokémon in Ubers. Don’t forget that Necrozma has reliable recovery, set up on both sides and STAB stored power. All in all, UN is going to AG most likely.

As for regular Necrozma, I think Photon Geyser will give it an absolutely huge boon, even without UN. It allows for more unpredictable sets. I’m gonna wrap it up here since my phones about to die, but I see Necrozma going up to BL2 or even UU.
>I see the Z crystal that contains it going to Ubers at minimum

Oh?

Anyway what many of these calls for AG are missing is its lack of an item and lack of a spammable STAB.

The only things UN has over Mega Ray are the legitimate option to run a special set (due to Photon Geyser's unique qualities) and the slightly increased speed tier. But the speed tier doesn't mean a whole lot when it's still gonna get fucked by Mega Gengar, scarf Lunala/Marshadow/Yveltal/etc., and plenty of other stuff depending on its set.

And the lack of an item cannot be overstated. It also doesn't have Dragon Dance or Nasty Plot, so unless you're running a double dance set (Which, you probably can't. You need the coverage) you're gonna get revenged by plenty of shit.

No way this thing goes to AG.
 
#25
I'm honestly very disappointed with the stat distributions for both Necrozma forms. Not only is it slower, but its significantly lower HP makes it less bulky than both Solgaleo and Lunala are without investment.

252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 306-360 (73.7 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Machamp Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dawn-Maned Necrozma: 262-310 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 4 Dawn-Maned Necrozma: 144-172 (42.9 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Lucario Aura Sphere vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Solgaleo: 172-203 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even though the stat distribution is a bit worse than the originals, I still feel that Dusk-Maned Necrozma has key niches over Solgaleo that will likely make it the better pick. Stealth Rock access alone is huge and immediately gives DM Necrozma more utility than Solgaleo. Prism Armor is also an amazing asset, letting Necrozma survive a ton of super effective moves like Arceus-Ground's Judgement and Marshadow's Spectral Thief at full HP with plenty of health to spare. Combined with Swords Dance and DM Necrozma's higher Attack, it can actually stay in on a lot of these threaten Pokemon and OHKO them with Sunsteel Strike after a bit of chip damage.

Dawn-Winged Necrozma is a bit harder to find a proper niche for over Lunala since it doesn't benefit too much from the defensive utility of Prism Armor and really only has access to Stealth Rock and Autotomize over the base form. I'm interested in seeing if its able to develop any notable niche over Lunala

Ultra Necrozma is hard to evaluate. It has amazing offensive stats and abilities, yes, but a shallow movepool to take advantage of it. I doubt it will go to AG like Mega-Rayquaza simply because it doesn't possess all of Mega-Rayquaza qualities (incredibility vast movepool, ability to hold any item, Delta Stream making it impossible to revenge kill). That being said, I think it will be incredible when combined with its base form Dusk-Maned Necrozma (assuming transforming works like Mega evolution and can be done at the player's will). Dusk-maned's typing and bulk give it a lot of Utility over the course of the match and lets it setup on most of Ultra Necrozma's checks. Assuming that Ultra Necrozma's Speed change works like Mega Evolution, there are a ton of cool thinks you could do. For example, say you are up against a scarfed Xernas as Dusk-maned Necrozma. You setup as the opponent switches to Primal Groudon. Normally, DM Necrozma would be forced out in this situation, but instead, you can transform into Ultra Necrozma, outspeed, and OHKO with a boosted Earthquake.