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My precious Espeon ranked D-class?! Ridiculous!

Espeon (Psychic) D => A

On any Psychic teams, Espeon is my first choice. I rely on her to hit hard and hit fast. 130 on SpA, 95 on SpD, and 110 on Speed let her take on most specially offensive threats to my team.

Espeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Morning Sun
- Calm Mind

Max Special Attack and Speed fulfill let her "Hit Hard and Hit Fast". It takes some setting up prior (Dual Screens/Aurora Veil), the removal of hazards, and switching her in on a specially offensive 'mon. She outspeeds most of the time, so first move usually is Calm Mind to set up a sweep and tank another special attack, or Morning Sun to replenish HP. Then go for a kill.
Not to mention that she pretty much walls a lot of walls with Magic Bounce. She's untouchable! Think they can Toxic stall her? Nope! Cripple her speed? Nope! Get some spikes or rocks up? Nope! Taunt her?! NOPE! Once she's safely out, she can't be bothered by status's unless you force it on her with Psycho Shift, Fling, or secondary effects.

Honestly, she's just so good when you bring her out, I don't understand how she's D-classed! Maybe it's because to others she's situational? But if played right she sweeps tons!
 

Acast

Ghost of a Forum Mod & PS Room Owner
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus

My precious Espeon ranked D-class?! Ridiculous!
Espeon (Psychic) D => A
On any Psychic teams, Espeon is my first choice. I rely on her to hit hard and hit fast. 130 on SpA, 95 on SpD, and 110 on Speed let her take on most specially offensive threats to my team.

Espeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Morning Sun
- Calm Mind

Max Special Attack and Speed fulfill let her "Hit Hard and Hit Fast". It takes some setting up prior (Dual Screens/Aurora Veil), the removal of hazards, and switching her in on a specially offensive 'mon. She outspeeds most of the time, so first move usually is Calm Mind to set up a sweep and tank another special attack, or Morning Sun to replenish HP. Then go for a kill.
Not to mention that she pretty much walls a lot of walls with Magic Bounce. She's untouchable! Think they can Toxic stall her? Nope! Cripple her speed? Nope! Get some spikes or rocks up? Nope! Taunt her?! NOPE! Once she's safely out, she can't be bothered by status's unless you force it on her with Psycho Shift, Fling, or secondary effects.

Honestly, she's just so good when you bring her out, I don't understand how she's D-classed! Maybe it's because to others she's situational? But if played right she sweeps tons!
Espeon is D rank because it's outclassed by a couple other pokemon on Psychic teams. If you want Espeon to rise, you need to explain why we should use it over Double Dance Mew or Sash Alakazam. Both of those pokemon are valuable, reliable assets to Psychic teams. Espeon doesn't fill any notable roles that Psychic would want. It can't even benefit from a Baton Pass chain like it used to because Baton Pass has been banned. That's why it's D rank and why I strongly disagree with your nomination.
 

My precious Espeon ranked D-class?! Ridiculous!
Espeon (Psychic) D => A
On any Psychic teams, Espeon is my first choice. I rely on her to hit hard and hit fast. 130 on SpA, 95 on SpD, and 110 on Speed let her take on most specially offensive threats to my team.

Espeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Morning Sun
- Calm Mind

Max Special Attack and Speed fulfill let her "Hit Hard and Hit Fast". It takes some setting up prior (Dual Screens/Aurora Veil), the removal of hazards, and switching her in on a specially offensive 'mon. She outspeeds most of the time, so first move usually is Calm Mind to set up a sweep and tank another special attack, or Morning Sun to replenish HP. Then go for a kill.
Not to mention that she pretty much walls a lot of walls with Magic Bounce. She's untouchable! Think they can Toxic stall her? Nope! Cripple her speed? Nope! Get some spikes or rocks up? Nope! Taunt her?! NOPE! Once she's safely out, she can't be bothered by status's unless you force it on her with Psycho Shift, Fling, or secondary effects.

Honestly, she's just so good when you bring her out, I don't understand how she's D-classed! Maybe it's because to others she's situational? But if played right she sweeps tons!

You did just explain why it was D-rank to an extent: it's situational. There isn't anything extremely important that it provides for offensive or balanced Psychic teams. What would someone be willing to give up on an offensive Psychic team to make room for Espeon? Deoxys-Speed is crucial for hazards, screens, and generally stops hazard setters just fine. Mew is a far better setup sweeper due to having better overall bulk and solid coverage. Espeon simply doesn't offer anything substantial to Psychic teams, and is a niche choice at best, which is why it is D-rank.

Edit: My sniping skills are off today :(
 

Tapu Bulu A --> S (Grass)
This may be a controversial nomination for some, but since its introduction to Grass this gen Tapu Bulu has proven it's a staple of the type with it's incredible offense and utility. This is largely due to it's signature ability, Grassy Surge, and the irreplacable support it offers Grass.

Grassy Terrain boosts the strength of all Grass type moves by 1.5x, and while this may not seem impressive at a glance given the poor offensive coverage, this boon allows Grass's offensive core to put out considerably more offensive pressure and better manage threats in the metagame. Terrain can often be the difference between attackers (such as Celebi, Serperior, Breloom, and Bulu himself) checking a threat and being forced to fall back on (and further wear down) Grass's defensive core.

Beyond injecting Grass with a welcome dose of offense, Grassy Terrain also helps sustain Grass's defensive backbone with passive recovery. This serves to make the holy trinity more formidable throughout a battle, especially Ferrothorn who lacks reliable recovery. The "hidden" effect of halving Earthquake damage is also surprisingly helpful, as Grass's entire defensive core is neutral to Ground-type attacks, and makes managing threats such as Choice Band Diggersby, SD Lando-T, and Excadrill much easier.

While Grassy Terrain is not as game-changing for Grass as Koko's Electric Terrain is for Electric, the support it provides is essential to the type and how it performs in the metagame. But it's not all that makes Bulu deserving of S-rank.

Tapu Bulu is a powerful offensive threat on it's own, hitting very hard with 130 attack, great STAB in Wood Hammer, and valuable coverage options in Stone Edge and Superpower. However the set that convinced me Bulu needed to rise was not Choice Band, as one might expect, but rather Choice Scarf.

Tapu Bulu @ Choice Scarf

Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Stone Edge
- Superpower
- Horn Leech / Zen Headbutt

Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu serves as an incredibly effective and reliable revenge killer for Grass, sporting a unique balance of speed and power that is impossible to recreate on the type. While Band and SD are strong wallbreaking options, Choice Scarf offers Tapu Bulu far more opportunities to come in and set terrain without letting offensive threats take advantage of its middling speed to pressure the team.

Scarf Bulu is capable of blanket checking a wide breadth of the unboosted offensive metagame with potent, spammable STAB and coverage, including threats to Grass teams such as Nidoking, Landorus-I, Garchomp, Gengar, Mega Charizard Y, -1 Victini, Greninja, and Alola Raichu. And even without Band, boosted Wood Hammer is tremendously spammable, dealing heavy damage even to resists and bulky mons.
- Vs. Threats -
252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking in Grassy Terrain: 366-432 (120.7 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus in Grassy Terrain: 322-379 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 214-253 (67 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp in Grassy Terrain: 309-364 (86.3 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar in Grassy Terrain: 222-261 (85 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 536-632 (180.4 - 212.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Stone Edge vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 328-388 (96.1 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja in Grassy Terrain: 512-606 (179.6 - 212.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu-Alola in Grassy Terrain: 321-378 (123.9 - 145.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


- Wood Hammer Spam -
252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios in Grassy Terrain: 177-209 (59.1 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 168-198 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna in Grassy Terrain: 131-155 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu in Grassy Terrain: 130-153 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Magnezone in Grassy Terrain: 131-155 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini in Grassy Terrain: 221-261 (64.8 - 76.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi in Grassy Terrain: 147-174 (36.4 - 43.1%) -- 6.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Grassy Terrain: 153-180 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 222-262 (73 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery
This all ended up a lot longer than I expected, but yeah, with its incredible offensive presence and teamwide support, Tapu Bulu has proven to be a staple for Grass teams.

I nominate Tapu Bulu for S-rank on Grass.
 
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Tapu Bulu A --> S (Grass)
This may be a controversial nomination for some, but since its introduction to Grass this gen Tapu Bulu has proven it's a staple of the type with it's incredible offense and utility. This is largely due to it's signature ability, Grassy Surge, and the irreplacable support it offers Grass.

Grassy Terrain boosts the strength of all Grass type moves by 1.5x, and while this may not seem impressive at a glance given the poor offensive coverage, this boon allows Grass's offensive core to put out considerably more offensive pressure and better manage threats in the metagame. Terrain can often be the difference between attackers (such as Celebi, Serperior, Breloom, and Bulu himself) checking a threat and being forced to fall back on (and further wear down) Grass's defensive core.

Beyond injecting Grass with a welcome dose of offense, Grassy Terrain also helps sustain Grass's defensive backbone with passive recovery. This serves to make the holy trinity a more formidable over longer battles, especially Ferrothorn who lacks reliable recovery,. The "hidden" effect of halving Earthquake damage is also surprisingly helpful, as Grass's entire defensive core is neutral to Ground-type attacks, and makes managing threats such as Choice Band Diggersby, SD Lando-T, and Excadrill much easier.

While Grassy Terrain is not as game-changing for Grass as Koko's Electric Terrain is for Electric, the support it provides is essential to the type and how it performs in the metagame. But it's not all that makes Bulu deserving of S-rank.

Tapu Bulu is a powerful offensive threat on it's own, hitting very hard with 130 attack, great STAB in Wood Hammer, and valuable coverage options in Stone Edge and Superpower. However the set that convinced me Bulu needed to rise was not Choice Band as one might expect (though that is certainly a viable option), but rather Choice Scarf.

Tapu Bulu @ Choice Scarf

Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Stone Edge
- Superpower
- Horn Leech / Zen Headbutt

Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu serves as an incredibly effective and reliable revenge killer for Grass, sporting a unique balance of speed and power that is impossible to recreate on the type. It is capable of blanket checking a wide breadth of the unboosted offensive metagame with potent, spammable STAB and coverage, including threats to Grass teams such as Nidoking, Landorus-I, Garchomp, Gengar, Mega Charizard Y, -1 Victini, Greninja, and Alola Raichu.

Much of what makes Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu so effective is how spammable boosted Wood Hammer is, dealing heavy damage even to resists and bulky mons.
- Vs. Threats -
252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking in Grassy Terrain: 366-432 (120.7 - 142.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus in Grassy Terrain: 322-379 (100.9 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

-1 252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 214-253 (67 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Garchomp in Grassy Terrain: 309-364 (86.3 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar in Grassy Terrain: 222-261 (85 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 536-632 (180.4 - 212.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Stone Edge vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 328-388 (96.1 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja in Grassy Terrain: 512-606 (179.6 - 212.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu-Alola in Grassy Terrain: 321-378 (123.9 - 145.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


- Wood Hammer Spam -
252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios in Grassy Terrain: 177-209 (59.1 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos in Grassy Terrain: 168-198 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna in Grassy Terrain: 131-155 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu in Grassy Terrain: 130-153 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Magnezone in Grassy Terrain: 131-155 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini in Grassy Terrain: 221-261 (64.8 - 76.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Jirachi in Grassy Terrain: 147-174 (36.4 - 43.1%) -- 6.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Grassy Terrain: 153-180 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Sableye-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 222-262 (73 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Grassy Terrain recovery

This all ended up a lot longer than I expected, but yeah, with its incredible offensive presence and teamwide support, Tapu Bulu has proven to be a staple for Grass teams.

I nominate Tapu Bulu for S-rank on Grass.

---

P.S. Choice Band and Swords Dance both have their place on certain team comps and function as strong wallbreakers capable of dealing heavy blows to Steel, Flying, Normal, and even Poison. But Choice Scarf does a much better job of supporting Grass Teams: it offers Bulu the most opportunities to come in and set terrain, and unlike Band / SD it doesn't let offensive threats take advantage of its middling speed to force it out which takes a lot of pressure off the defensive core.
I am not going to deny Tapu Bulu is a very valuable asset for Grass teams. You did a good job mentioning all those qualities, as Tapu Bulu can indeed enable a lot of pressure with those heavy-damaging moves like Wood Hammer and holding a Choice Scarf for speed control.

However, there are several drawbacks that distinguish Bulu from staples like Mega-Venusaur and Ferrothorn on Grass: It is not broadly effective against top tier types, proving to be deadweight on Poison and Steel matchups, and it cannot reliably check several threats you mentioned in your calcs since most of those Pokemon are not staying into Tapu Bulu anyway, instead they will switch into solid counters/checks like Celesteela (on Flying), Jirachi (on Psychic), Mandibuzz (on Dark), Buzzwole (on Bug) and so on. Playing around those threats can involve several 50-50s which is something you would like to avoid, but again, I am not underestimating Tapu Bulu's utility. It can do a pretty good job in a late game scenario, but much like other A rank mons, it is incredibly sustained by more important Pokemon on the team that are actually able to abuse Grassy's Terrain effect (like Earthquake's damage drop and sustain to your walls lacking reliable recovery).

Besides, its Grass/Fairy typing is more of a curse than a blessing, as it is weak to common Ice, Fire, Flying and Steel moves, all of which are able to OHKO Tapu Bulu with decent offensive investiment, while still lacking offensive moves from its secondary Fairy typing to compensate it offensively.

Its subpar 75 speed also means that, even with a Choice Scarf, it is vulnerable to common revenge killers in the tier: Higher base speed scarfers (almost every relevant scarfer is actually faster than Bulu) are able to outspeed it and easily take it down with the appropriate move. Pokemons like Jirachi, Infernape, Victini, and Mamoswine are notable mentions, but of course the list goes on and on.

Lastly, it is important to note that, as much as I acknowledge Tapu Bulu's utility for Grass, I don't think it is as essential as you claim it to be. Grassy Terrain does have the forementioned benefits, but as for offensive abusers, there are not as much Pokemon who can make proper use of it (Serperior and maybe Whismsicott/Celebi are the best examples I could find. Not gonna mention Breloom since not all runs Bullet Seed) as most Grass teams usually avoid adding too many Grass moves in their team due to their poor overall efectiveness.

Making it clear these are my personal thoughts based on my experience on the matter, but due to the reasons stated above, it is more appropriate that Tapu Bulu stays on it is current A rank.
 

Doublade (Ghost) B --> C
Doublade doesn't do much that mimikyu and alola-marowak can't do. Last gen doublade was the only Pokemon that had swords dance and shadow sneak. But now mimikyu is here and deals with things that doublade did but better with a free turn to set up zmoves and isn't walled by mandibuzz. It definitely doesn't have the wall breaking power that alola-marowak has. Defensive wise it lacks a reliable recovery doesn't have WoW like other ghost walls. It has pitiful special defence even with eviolite. It doesn't deal with threats that ghost has. It doesn't deal with ghost big threats such has mega charizard-y, being walled by toxapex, SS water, Sand Ground and more
 
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Mega Pidgeot (Normal) B --> A

Mega Pidgeot may not be the best special attacker on Normal anymore with the advent of Z-Conversion Porygon-Z but B rank is awfully low for it. Considering it doesn't even have the opportunity cost it used to have last generation due to Lopunny's Mega Stone being unreleased, Mega Pidgeot is a lot more splashable on Normal teams. Its amazing Speed tier lets it revenge kill almost every non-Choice Scarf Fighting-type while also having one of the highest special offenses available on Normal teams along with access to No Guard Hurricane, making it an excellent wallbreaker. Finally (and probably most importantly), Mega Pidgeot doesn't deserve to be ranked with Pokemon like Bewear, Dodrio, Smeargle, Snorlax, and Swellow.
 
Mega Pidgeot (Normal) B --> A

Mega Pidgeot may not be the best special attacker on Normal anymore with the advent of Z-Conversion Porygon-Z but B rank is awfully low for it. Considering it doesn't even have the opportunity cost it used to have last generation due to Lopunny's Mega Stone being unreleased, Mega Pidgeot is a lot more splashable on Normal teams. Its amazing Speed tier lets it revenge kill almost every non-Choice Scarf Fighting-type while also having one of the highest special offenses available on Normal teams along with access to No Guard Hurricane, making it an excellent wallbreaker. Finally (and probably most importantly), Mega Pidgeot doesn't deserve to be ranked with Pokemon like Bewear, Dodrio, Smeargle, Snorlax, and Swellow.
I agree with this nomination.

While Meloetta is a better wallbreaker and Porygon-Z is a better cleaner, Mega Pidgeot has a unique blend of power, speed, and utility that make it splash well onto Normal teams. No Guard Hurricane is quite powerful and spammable, and combine that with a good speed tier, access to U-turn, and handy utility in Defog or Tailwind, and Mega Pidgeot becomes Normal's most flexible revenge killer.
 
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Welp, time for another long string of nominations:





Shuckle: A=>B (Bug)

The main reason Shuckle should be brought down is because a lot of its roles are done better. Galvantula is the superior Sticky Web setter due to its great part Electric typing and an actual offensive presence with helpful coverage. Armaldo is better as a Stealth Rocker and Fire sponge due to actually being able to offensively threaten the Fire types it sponges. It shares Shuckle's Knock Off utility, while also offering further utility in Rapid Spin. Forretress serves as a better Stealth Rocker on more balanced teams due to having further utility in Rapid Spin and Volt Switch, while also checking the insane threat that is Terrakion. Shuckle's still a decent choice, but the fact that most of its roles can be performed better warrants its drop to B rank.



Mega Sharpedo: A=>S (Dark)

Similarly to how Mega Sableye is essential to balanced Dark teams, Mega Sharpedo is essential to offensive Dark teams. Thanks to its pre-Mega ability Speed Boost coupled with its post-Mega ability Strong Jaw, Mega Sharpedo is without a doubt one of Dark's best late-game cleaners. It has great coverage with Ice Fang and Psychic Fangs, capable of tearing through a wide range of threats like Keldeo, Heracross, Garchomp, and Dragonite, as well as potentially sweeping Poison once Mega Venusaur and Toxapex have been weakened. While it is a physical powerhouse, it can also run mixed sets effectively with Hydro Pump, allowing it to beat Skarmory, Hippowdon, and Mega Steelix. Mega Sharpedo is incredibly important to offensive Dark teams, and is definitely worth returning to S rank.




Goodra: C=>B (Dragon)

I am aware that this nomination was made earlier, but I think Goodra should definitely be moved up on Dragon. With 150 Special Defense with an Assault Vest, Goodra is one of Dragon's best switch-ins to special attackers. Here are some calcs demonstrating its amazing special bulk:

252 SpA Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 102-120 (26.6 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 92-110 (24 - 28.7%) -- 96.9% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 107-126 (27.9 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 200-236 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In addition to its amazing special bulk, it also has a strong offensive presence with fantastic moves like Sludge Bomb, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, and Earthquake, allowing it to deal with the threats listed in the calcs, as well as Hippowdon, Heatran, Gliscor, and Ferrothorn. It has amazing abilities in Sap Sipper and Gooey. Gooey can be especially helpful when a wallbreaker like Hydreigon or Dragonite needs to outspeed a physical sweeper, and Sap Sipper is great for switching into Leech Seeds from Ferrothorn and Celesteela. Due to Goodra's versatile offensive and defensive presence, it is definitely worthy of at least B rank.




Golurk: B=>C (Ghost)

The introduction of Alolan Marowak has left Golurk extremely outclassed in terms of having far more power and a much better defensive typing. While Golurk does have nice Fighting coverage, Doublade has this while also having a better defensive typing, Swords Dance, and far better physical bulk. Doublade also outclasses it as a Rock resist. As a suicide lead, it has a very poor Speed stat, leaving it outsped by just about every Taunt user and being easily revenge killed without its Focus Sash. Since Ghost usually has a tough time keeping hazards away, even with Mega Sableye, Golurk will often find itself unable to check threats. Right now, Golurk is a pretty niche pick and should be dropped to C rank.




Mega Steelix: D=>B (Ground)

Mega Steelix has proven itself to be incredibly helpful for Ground teams due to being the only switch in to Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu that the type has access to. In addition to Tapu Bulu, it can also switch into threats like Breloom and Kyurem-Black and do major damage to them with Heavy Slam. With its great defensive typing, it can serve as an alternative Stealth Rocker for Sand Ground teams, freeing Hippowdon's last moveslot for something like Toxic. While it does have certain flaws holding it back, such as having no reliable sustain and having some of its roles done better by Hippowdon, it still has enough beneficial traits to warrant a spot on B rank.




Aurorus: B=>C (Ice)

Back in ORAS, Aurorus was definitely one of the best Snow Warning Pokemon due to its nice utility with Stealth Rock, Encore, and Thunder Wave. But now, Alolan Ninetales has solidified itself as the superior Snow Warning Pokemon due to its higher Speed, better offensive typing, and more valuable utility in Aurora Veil. As a Stealth Rocker, Piloswine can sponge Fire type attacks better while also having important utility in Roar, and Mamoswine has a far better offensive presence, as well as being able to check a large amount of threats with Endeavor + Ice Shard. There isn't a lot justifying Aurorus on Ice teams due to how outclassed it is, which is why I think it should be lowered to C rank.




Mega Alakazam: A=>S (Psychic)

With Mega Medicham being banned, Mega Alakazam has returned as Psychic's best Mega Evolution. With Trace, it can not only function as an amazing speed control option, but it can also be helpful in safely switching into Pokemon like Heatran and Thundurus-Therian when they try to go for Fire and Electric type attacks respectively. With 150 Speed, it can outspeed a large portion of the unboosted metagame, as well as certain Choice Scarf Pokemon like Mamoswine and Xurkitree. It functions as a fantastic wallbreaker with its 175 Special Attack, as well as having helpful utility in Substitute and Encore. While Sash-Counter Alakazam is still a fantastic asset capable of checking a wide range of physical threats, Mega Alakazam is near essential on offensive Psychic teams and is definitely deserving of S rank.




Seismitoad: B=>A
(Water)

Seismitoad is essential to Swift Swim Water teams due to being the best Stealth Rocker the archetype has, as well as having an important Electric immunity. With Sludge Wave, it can serve as an effective check to threats like Tapu Bulu, Tapu Fini, and Clefable. In rain, it hits up to 494 Speed, outspeeding many threatening Choice Scarf Pokemon like Victini and Jirachi. Seismitoad is absolutely vital to Swift Swim Water and it is fully deserving of A rank.
 
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Acast

Ghost of a Forum Mod & PS Room Owner
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus


Mega Sharpedo: A=>S (Dark)

Similarly to how Mega Sableye is essential to balanced Dark teams, Mega Sharpedo is essential to offensive Dark teams. Thanks to its pre-Mega ability Speed Boost coupled with its post-Mega ability Strong Jaw, Mega Sharpedo is without a doubt one of Dark's best late-game cleaners. It has great coverage with Ice Fang and Psychic Fangs, capable of tearing through a wide range of threats like Keldeo, Heracross, Garchomp, and Dragonite, as well as potentially sweeping Poison once Mega Venusaur and Toxapex have been weakened. While it is a physical powerhouse, it can also run mixed sets effectively with Hydro Pump, allowing it to beat Skarmory, Hippowdon, and Mega Steelix. Mega Sharpedo is incredibly important to offensive Dark teams, and is definitely worth returning to S rank.

Seismitoad: B=>A (Water)

Seismitoad is essential to Swift Swim Water teams due to being the best Stealth Rocker the archetype has, as well as having an important Electric immunity. With Sludge Wave, it can serve as an effective check to threats like Tapu Bulu, Tapu Fini, and Clefable. In rain, it hits up to 504 Speed, outspeeding many threatening Choice Scarf Pokemon like Victini and Nihilego, as well as outspeeding +2 Magearna and Deoxys-Speed and getting up Stealth Rock before it can go for Taunt. Seismitoad is absolutely vital to Swift Swim Water and it is fully deserving of A rank.
Houndominite and Swampertite are both going to be part of the metagame very soon, so I don't agree with either of the nominations I quoted. Mega Houndoom could potentially have a solid niche over Sharpedo with its ability to pressure Steel and Fairy teams. Mega Swampert could easily outclass Seismitoad altogether as a Swift Swim abuser. It may still turn out that Sharpedo and Seismitoad deserve to rise, but we should at least wait until we see how the new megas change things.

I'm mostly indifferent on your other nominations. Kinda leaning towards support on Shuckle, Golurk, and Mega Alakazam.
 
Houndominite and Swampertite are both going to be part of the metagame very soon, so I don't agree with either of the nominations I quoted. Mega Houndoom could potentially have a solid niche over Sharpedo with its ability to pressure Steel and Fairy teams. Mega Swampert could easily outclass Seismitoad altogether as a Swift Swim abuser. It may still turn out that Sharpedo and Seismitoad deserve to rise, but we should at least wait until we see how the new megas change things.

I'm mostly indifferent on your other nominations. Kinda leaning towards support on Shuckle, Golurk, and Mega Alakazam.

Yeah, I was just considering how well they did in the metagame right now. But when Mega Houndoom and Mega Swampert arrive, I definitely agree that Mega Sharpedo and Seismitoad may not be as prevalent.
 
Mega Pidgeot (Normal) B --> A

Mega Pidgeot may not be the best special attacker on Normal anymore with the advent of Z-Conversion Porygon-Z but B rank is awfully low for it. Considering it doesn't even have the opportunity cost it used to have last generation due to Lopunny's Mega Stone being unreleased, Mega Pidgeot is a lot more splashable on Normal teams. Its amazing Speed tier lets it revenge kill almost every non-Choice Scarf Fighting-type while also having one of the highest special offenses available on Normal teams along with access to No Guard Hurricane, making it an excellent wallbreaker. Finally (and probably most importantly), Mega Pidgeot doesn't deserve to be ranked with Pokemon like Bewear, Dodrio, Smeargle, Snorlax, and Swellow.
There are a couple problems with this post. First of all it just lists qualities that everyone knows just by the smogon analysis page such as "fast speed" and access to "no guard hurricane." Mega-Pid has always had these qualities, so that doesn't mean it should move up on those alone. You need to stress how the metagame is favorable for it right now, like metagame trends, popular types, etc. Listing off stats and abilities doesn't do this.

The matchup against fighting is good, however pidgeot can't stop a hawlucha sweep which, in my opinion, prevents from being the "catch all" for fighting type teams.

The problem when I used with Mega-Pid is two fold - it is a liability against non-offensive teams and has really terrible matches with popular types. What does Pid do against electric? Nothing. What does it do against dark? Nothing. What does it do against rock? Nothing. Granted rock may not be the most popular/best type right now electric liability is way worse than a fighting liability imo.

It doesn't fair well against other popular types either. Kelfki can check it and set up light screen, CS Tapu Bulu outspeeds and KOs with stone edge, Tapu Koko KOs it and Pid doesn't survive a +6 Aqua Jet from azumarill either. On Steel, it is walled by Heatran and doesn't 2HKO specially defensive 'steela. +2 Bullet Punch from Mega Scizor also KOs from offensive variants and can kill after SR from defensive ones.

Even against grass Pid isn't going to get past Cradily very easily.

The refresh set isn't much better...even more useless vs. electric, rock, dark, fairy, and steel. If getting into a PP stall war with Toxapex and Mantine is your idea of a wallbreaker that is a little skewed... The fact of the matter is that Pid can be 2HKO'd very easily with no investment, especially after stealth rock. This heavily limits the ability to set up. As a defogger...oh boy. What does Pid defog on? Ferrothorn maybe? Forretress? Hippo? Golurk? Pretty sure that is it, maybe I missed one or two (have fun with a possible T-Wave from Ferrotornm and I don't even think Forretress is used for hazards much). It can't switch in on many hazard setter because its checked by rock and steel types which carry Stealth Rock / Spikes.

Also important note as a revenge killer - Mega Pid does not OHKO -1 Victini without hazards, which means it cannot kill a CS Victini from full health. That is pretty big problem in my opinion.

I will say that Tailwind is probably the best utility it has going for it, but I don't think it really belongs in A for that.
 
There are a couple problems with this post. First of all it just lists qualities that everyone knows just by the smogon analysis page such as "fast speed" and access to "no guard hurricane." Mega-Pid has always had these qualities, so that doesn't mean it should move up on those alone. You need to stress how the metagame is favorable for it right now, like metagame trends, popular types, etc. Listing off stats and abilities doesn't do this.

The matchup against fighting is good, however pidgeot can't stop a hawlucha sweep which, in my opinion, prevents from being the "catch all" for fighting type teams.

The problem when I used with Mega-Pid is two fold - it is a liability against non-offensive teams and has really terrible matches with popular types. What does Pid do against electric? Nothing. What does it do against dark? Nothing. What does it do against rock? Nothing. Granted rock may not be the most popular/best type right now electric liability is way worse than a fighting liability imo.

It doesn't fair well against other popular types either. Kelfki can check it and set up light screen, CS Tapu Bulu outspeeds and KOs with stone edge, Tapu Koko KOs it and Pid doesn't survive a +6 Aqua Jet from azumarill either. On Steel, it is walled by Heatran and doesn't 2HKO specially defensive 'steela. +2 Bullet Punch from Mega Scizor also KOs from offensive variants and can kill after SR from defensive ones.

Even against grass Pid isn't going to get past Cradily very easily.

The refresh set isn't much better...even more useless vs. electric, rock, dark, fairy, and steel. If getting into a PP stall war with Toxapex and Mantine is your idea of a wallbreaker that is a little skewed... The fact of the matter is that Pid can be 2HKO'd very easily with no investment, especially after stealth rock. This heavily limits the ability to set up. As a defogger...oh boy. What does Pid defog on? Ferrothorn maybe? Forretress? Hippo? Golurk? Pretty sure that is it, maybe I missed one or two (have fun with a possible T-Wave from Ferrotornm and I don't even think Forretress is used for hazards much). It can't switch in on many hazard setter because its checked by rock and steel types which carry Stealth Rock / Spikes.

Also important note as a revenge killer - Mega Pid does not OHKO -1 Victini without hazards, which means it cannot kill a CS Victini from full health. That is pretty big problem in my opinion.

I will say that Tailwind is probably the best utility it has going for it, but I don't think it really belongs in A for that.

Mega Pidgeot was never really a "catch all" for Fighting type teams, since Fighting still has many other ways around it (Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Heracross, Sash Breloom). Regarding Electric, Normal already has a fantastic matchup against Electric, so Mega Pidgeot being a deadweight in that matchup doesn't mean all that much. Regarding Fairy, Choice Band Tapu Bulu is the more common set right now, which Mega Pidgeot has no issues with. And Azumarill has a pretty difficult time setting up freely against Normal anyway, so Mega Pidgeot normally wouldn't have to worry about that. For Heatran, one can easily just U-turn into Chansey, walling non-Taunt variants while also popping the Air Balloon and making it more susceptible to Diggersby. As for Mega Scizor, Porygon2 checks it pretty effectively with Foul Play/Hidden Power Fire.

Also, Mega Pidgeot can never Defog on Golurk because it'll risk getting OHKOed by a Stone Edge. And sorry, but Forretress is most certainly used for hazards, since it's one of the best Stealth Rockers that Bug has access to. Porygon2 and Staraptor can easily switch into Victini, so odds are that won't be very threatening either.
 
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various amount of nominations
Shuckle (Bug) A--> B

agreed

Mega Sharpedo (Dark) A--> S

agreed

Goodra (Dragon) C--> B

I think that Goodra should NOT be B ranking on Dragon, but A ranking because of how fat it is, and how much Dragon appreciates the extra bulk.


Golurk (Ghost) B--> C

I disagree strongly because of how much Ghost appreciates Golurk's focus sash. I don't think Golurk is on the same level as like, Rotom, Driftblim, and Froslass. I'm not pushing Golurk over to A or anything. Golurk is pretty nice to have on Ghost because Ghost appreciates its Sash. You can send Sableye out of there is an opposing lead that Golurk has a hard time on, and have Golurk check w/e needs to be checked using its Focus Sash. It may not be on the same level as Marowak, but it does not need to be dropped.

Mega Steelix (Ground) D--> B

Its a momentum drain, so i would say C maybe?

Aurorus (Ice) B--> C

its a pretty nice lead, and if you havent used it on your ice teams you should definitley give it a try. It has access to Rock STAB, and hail to back it up. I think it deserves its rank.

Mega Alakazam (Psychic) A--> S

agreed

Seismitoad (Water) B -->A

agreed
 
Shuckle (Bug) A--> B

agreed

Mega Sharpedo (Dark) A--> S

agreed

Goodra (Dragon) C--> B

I think that Goodra should NOT be B ranking on Dragon, but A ranking because of how fat it is, and how much Dragon appreciates the extra bulk.


Golurk (Ghost) B--> C

I disagree strongly because of how much Ghost appreciates Golurk's focus sash. I don't think Golurk is on the same level as like, Rotom, Driftblim, and Froslass. I'm not pushing Golurk over to A or anything. Golurk is pretty nice to have on Ghost because Ghost appreciates its Sash. You can send Sableye out of there is an opposing lead that Golurk has a hard time on, and have Golurk check w/e needs to be checked using its Focus Sash. It may not be on the same level as Marowak, but it does not need to be dropped.

Mega Steelix (Ground) D--> B

Its a momentum drain, so i would say C maybe?

Aurorus (Ice) B--> C

its a pretty nice lead, and if you havent used it on your ice teams you should definitley give it a try. It has access to Rock STAB, and hail to back it up. I think it deserves its rank.

Mega Alakazam (Psychic) A--> S

agreed

Seismitoad (Water) B -->A

agreed

I wouldn't say Mega Steelix is a momentum drain, since it has a pretty good offensive presence (especially in sand) and can phase things out with Roar or Dragon Tail.

And regarding Aurorus, it tries to compress lots of utility like Snow Warning, Stealth Rock, Encore, and Thunder Wave, but, similarly to Golurk, it's very, very, slow as a hazard lead, with some underwhelming bulk and an insanely exploitable typing. In my opinion, it's much better to have Alolan Ninetales and Piloswine/Mamoswine separately as the Snow Warning Pokemon and Stealth Rocker than to compress the roles into 1 Pokemon that can't perform either role very effectively. Because of this, Aurorus should definitely be dropped to C rank.
 
Mega Pidgeot was never really a "catch all" for Fighting type teams, since Fighting still has many other ways around it (Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Heracross, Sash Breloom). Regarding Electric, Normal already has a fantastic matchup against Electric, so Mega Pidgeot being a deadweight in that matchup doesn't mean all that much. Regarding Fairy, Choice Band Tapu Bulu is the more common set right now, which Mega Pidgeot has no issues with. And Azumarill has a pretty difficult time setting up freely against Normal anyway, so Mega Pidgeot normally wouldn't have to worry about that. For Heatran, one can easily just U-turn into Chansey, walling non-Taunt variants while also popping the Air Balloon and making it more susceptible to Diggersby. As for Mega Scizor, Porygon2 checks it pretty effectively with Foul Play/Hidden Power Fire.

Also, Mega Pidgeot can never Defog on Golurk because it'll risk getting OHKOed by a Stone Edge. And sorry, but Forretress is most certainly used for hazards, since it's one of the best Stealth Rockers that Bug has access to. Porygon2 and Staraptor can easily switch into Victini, so odds are that won't be very threatening either.
Mega-Pid's niche is that it is a revenge killer that is good against fighting, so the fact that fighting types do have other countermeaures for it aside from hawlucha kind of just supports the point that yes, it is good against fighting, but the consensus I'm getting is that a major reason why it is used it because it can help with this match up when in reality it can only do so much.

Fairy teams almost always have CS Tapu Bulu, or should anyway. It is Fairy's only (or very few) assurances against ground teams and without a CS it can't do much against stuff it needs to outspeed like Lando-T, Lando-I, etc. I really don't know what kind of normal team you have been playing, but balance normal is VERY weak to Azumarill as the best thing Chansey can do is toxic, Porygon2 usually carries Ice Beam - Foul Play and not thunderbolt, Staraptor cannot kill it nor survive a hit at +6, and Diggersby can only quick attack to get some chip off. Ditto is probably the best "check" aside from Heliolisk but +6 Aqua Jet does a lot of damage to Ditto. Melotta dies from +6 Aqua Jet also.

Taunt Heatran is also VERY good against normal, as once again Chnsey is doing diddly squat back and Porygon2 can't touch it with only ice beam and foul play. Taunt - Toxic - Magma beats the eviolite core with like no effort. Staraptor doesn't like taking special moves and can only touch heatran if it carries close combat. Superpower Scizor also wins against Porygon2 if it switches in on SD from my experiences, at least if it carries Foul Play and not HP Fire.

Even CS Victini 2HKOs Staraptor with either V-Create or Bolt after stealth rock, and Porygon2 just needs a little chip to get 2HKO'd after stealth rock as well (this is also not counting sun)
 

MZ

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It seems that there's a bit of a misconception on why Pidge is good here. Pidge isn't supposed to literally be bird jesus and beat everything. I know "every mon has checks" is often used to justify something losing to way too many mons, but here I think it's entirely fair to say that Pidgeot is not supposed to beat everything. What it does is a role that inherently doesn't enjoy scarfers but that's not really a great argument against it. In the case of the Fairy matchup you brought up, Pidge gets to come in, get a kill or deal massive damage to Koko or Keys (who aren't coming in the next time), and then get forced out by a Jolly Scarf Bulu which is something you can switch into. And that's if you end up not U-Turning into something like Diggersby. Expecting it to 1v1 Tapu Koko or take a +6 Aqua Jet are just two examples of things that annoy Pidge which you brought up that aren't really relevant to its role or fair for the mon. As for being a liability vs non-offensive teams I'd really just recommend you play with it. Normal is far from stacked when it comes to revenge killing and Pidge isn't exactly the easiest mon to switch into, so having some kind of offensive pressure for like, literally anything just pick a wallbreaker is really nice. Some types have specific stuff like Zapdos or Ttar that can give it issues (I assume that's why you said it was bad against Dark) but U-Turn and the simple fact that many of Pidge's stops are either chipped without ridiculous strain thanks to lack of recovery (think stuff like Heatran if it's not HP Ground Pidge, it's far from unmanageable) or pressured super well by other Normal stuff (especially Diggersby) really helps. Pidge is great for the Steel matchup Heatran notwithstanding, its annoying for most every offense to face, and I totally support its rise.
 
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Mega-Pid's niche is that it is a revenge killer that is good against fighting, so the fact that fighting types do have other countermeaures for it aside from hawlucha kind of just supports the point that yes, it is good against fighting, but the consensus I'm getting is that a major reason why it is used it because it can help with this match up when in reality it can only do so much.

Fairy teams almost always have CS Tapu Bulu, or should anyway. It is Fairy's only (or very few) assurances against ground teams and without a CS it can't do much against stuff it needs to outspeed like Lando-T, Lando-I, etc. I really don't know what kind of normal team you have been playing, but balance normal is VERY weak to Azumarill as the best thing Chansey can do is toxic, Porygon2 usually carries Ice Beam - Foul Play and not thunderbolt, Staraptor cannot kill it nor survive a hit at +6, and Diggersby can only quick attack to get some chip off. Ditto is probably the best "check" aside from Heliolisk but +6 Aqua Jet does a lot of damage to Ditto. Melotta dies from +6 Aqua Jet also.

Taunt Heatran is also VERY good against normal, as once again Chnsey is doing diddly squat back and Porygon2 can't touch it with only ice beam and foul play. Taunt - Toxic - Magma beats the eviolite core with like no effort. Staraptor doesn't like taking special moves and can only touch heatran if it carries close combat. Superpower Scizor also wins against Porygon2 if it switches in on SD from my experiences, at least if it carries Foul Play and not HP Fire.

Even CS Victini 2HKOs Staraptor with either V-Create or Bolt after stealth rock, and Porygon2 just needs a little chip to get 2HKO'd after stealth rock as well (this is also not counting sun)
Fairy doesn't need Choice Scarf Tapu Bulu to beat Lando I and Lando T when Azumarill and Tapu Koko can already check them just fine. And regarding Azumarill, thanks to Foul Play, it can't set up safely on Porygon2, and Chansey wearing it down with Toxic and Seismic Toss can easily put it within range of Choice Band Diggersby's Quick Attack, as seen here:

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 153-181 (44.8 - 53%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO

And as Megazard said, Hidden Power Ground is not a bad move on Mega Pidgeot, and has a good chance of OHKOing Heatran after Stealth Rock, as seen here:

252 SpA Pidgeot-Mega Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 256-304 (79.2 - 94.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This move can also do pretty nicely in the Electric matchup that you mentioned, since it can outspeed and OHKO Magnezone if it's a Scarf set, and it can do quite a lot to Alolan Raichu as it pivots out with U-turn.
 
There are a couple problems with this post. First of all it just lists qualities that everyone knows just by the smogon analysis page such as "fast speed" and access to "no guard hurricane." Mega-Pid has always had these qualities, so that doesn't mean it should move up on those alone. You need to stress how the metagame is favorable for it right now, like metagame trends, popular types, etc. Listing off stats and abilities doesn't do this.

The matchup against fighting is good, however pidgeot can't stop a hawlucha sweep which, in my opinion, prevents from being the "catch all" for fighting type teams.

The problem when I used with Mega-Pid is two fold - it is a liability against non-offensive teams and has really terrible matches with popular types. What does Pid do against electric? Nothing. What does it do against dark? Nothing. What does it do against rock? Nothing. Granted rock may not be the most popular/best type right now electric liability is way worse than a fighting liability imo.

It doesn't fair well against other popular types either. Kelfki can check it and set up light screen, CS Tapu Bulu outspeeds and KOs with stone edge, Tapu Koko KOs it and Pid doesn't survive a +6 Aqua Jet from azumarill either. On Steel, it is walled by Heatran and doesn't 2HKO specially defensive 'steela. +2 Bullet Punch from Mega Scizor also KOs from offensive variants and can kill after SR from defensive ones.

Even against grass Pid isn't going to get past Cradily very easily.

The refresh set isn't much better...even more useless vs. electric, rock, dark, fairy, and steel. If getting into a PP stall war with Toxapex and Mantine is your idea of a wallbreaker that is a little skewed... The fact of the matter is that Pid can be 2HKO'd very easily with no investment, especially after stealth rock. This heavily limits the ability to set up. As a defogger...oh boy. What does Pid defog on? Ferrothorn maybe? Forretress? Hippo? Golurk? Pretty sure that is it, maybe I missed one or two (have fun with a possible T-Wave from Ferrotornm and I don't even think Forretress is used for hazards much). It can't switch in on many hazard setter because its checked by rock and steel types which carry Stealth Rock / Spikes.

Also important note as a revenge killer - Mega Pid does not OHKO -1 Victini without hazards, which means it cannot kill a CS Victini from full health. That is pretty big problem in my opinion.

I will say that Tailwind is probably the best utility it has going for it, but I don't think it really belongs in A for that.
Not a bad post but i'm sorry there's just too much wrong with it.

Two things though before I dissect your post: Mega Pidgeot isn't supposed to beat every single Pokemon in the metagame, its role is a revenge killer and i'm nomming it for A rank, not S.

There are a couple problems with this post. First of all it just lists qualities that everyone knows just by the smogon analysis page such as "fast speed" and access to "no guard hurricane." Mega-Pid has always had these qualities, so that doesn't mean it should move up on those alone. You need to stress how the metagame is favorable for it right now, like metagame trends, popular types, etc. Listing off stats and abilities doesn't do this.
I'll admit my nomination resembled an analysis overview a bit too much (not much of a surprise considering writing analyses is all I do here) but there's a reason I mentioned those specific qualities. Its excellent Speed tier is what makes it Normal's premier revenge killer. If we compare it to Dodrio, another Pokemon ranked at B, Mega Pidgeot's Speed tier actually lets it outspeed the crowded base 110 Speed tier while Dodrio speed ties with them. Dodrio can run a Choice Scarf, something Mega Pidgeot cannot but i'm not going to go too in-depth explaining what makes Choice Scarf Dodrio unviable. If we compare Dodrio's wallbreaking potential, Mega Pidgeot has a superior Special Attack compared to the former's Attack while No Guard Hurricane is actually a spammable Flying-type STAB move, which is otherwise non-existant. Dodrio has to rely on Brave Bird, which forces it to go down through recoil before it can even effectively wallbreak. For these reasons, I believe Mega Pidgeot severely outclasses Dodrio, another B ranked Pokemon, and should be moved up.
The matchup against fighting is good, however pidgeot can't stop a hawlucha sweep which, in my opinion, prevents from being the "catch all" for fighting type teams.
Yes, Hawlucha, a top tier B ranked threat. Of course Mega Pidgeot fails to revenge kill a Pokemon that has set up. Do you expect revenge killers to stop threats that have already set up? Its the teammates' duty to prevent it from setting up for free, and Staraptor manages to stop Hawlucha decently well anyway. What I meant from the bit about being able to revenge kill almost every Fighting-type was more along the lines of coming in to revenge kill a Keldeo or Breloom or w/e without any safe switch-ins, forcing the opponent to pick a sac. Fighting being one of Normal's toughest matchups, being able to do this is huge.
The problem when I used with Mega-Pid is two fold - it is a liability against non-offensive teams and has really terrible matches with popular types. What does Pid do against electric? Nothing. What does it do against dark? Nothing. What does it do against rock? Nothing. Granted rock may not be the most popular/best type right now electric liability is way worse than a fighting liability imo.

It doesn't fair well against other popular types either. Kelfki can check it and set up light screen, CS Tapu Bulu outspeeds and KOs with stone edge, Tapu Koko KOs it and Pid doesn't survive a +6 Aqua Jet from azumarill either. On Steel, it is walled by Heatran and doesn't 2HKO specially defensive 'steela. +2 Bullet Punch from Mega Scizor also KOs from offensive variants and can kill after SR from defensive ones.

Even against grass Pid isn't going to get past Cradily very easily.
Electric: Why would Mega Pidgeot's support be necessary against a type that can't beat Normal no matter what anyway? What are Electric's viable ways of breaking past Chansey? The only one I can think of is Alolan Golem, which Diggersby can easily dispatch.
Dark: What are Dark's switch-ins to Mega Pidgeot's Hurricane after Tyranitar is sufficiently chipped down? What you don't understand is Mega Pidgeot isn't supposed to help versus every single matchup, like that argument shouldn't even be used in A --> S nominations but i'm not even doing that. I'm nominating it for A rank. I'm bringing this up a bit too much but I think comparing it to other B ranked Pokemon is a necessity. What does Dodrio do in the matchup versus Dark teams? Get walled by Mandibuzz?
Rock: You said it yourself, Rock isn't relevant enough to the point that not helping versus it justifies Mega Pidgeot staying at B rank.
Fairy: Reiterating Megazard here, Tapu Koko and Klefki can come in once, get chipped down and not come in again. Expecting it to beat Tapu Koko and +6 Azumarill is ridiculous, that's not relevant to Mega Pidgeot's role.
Steel: Steel is actually a type it helps quite a lot with, idk what you're talking. Prevents the two biggest threats, Bisharp and Mega Scizor from setting up, can hit almost everything for super effective damage with Heat Wave. Offensive Heatran can take one Hurricane + Hidden Power Ground at best and fails to OHKO it while specially defensive Heatran gets walled by Chansey, to which Mega Pidgeot can pivot out with U-turn.
Grass: Get Cradily sufficiently chipped down and its super easy to break down Grass, not going to go too in-depth.
The refresh set isn't much better...even more useless vs. electric, rock, dark, fairy, and steel. If getting into a PP stall war with Toxapex and Mantine is your idea of a wallbreaker that is a little skewed... The fact of the matter is that Pid can be 2HKO'd very easily with no investment, especially after stealth rock. This heavily limits the ability to set up. As a defogger...oh boy. What does Pid defog on? Ferrothorn maybe? Forretress? Hippo? Golurk? Pretty sure that is it, maybe I missed one or two (have fun with a possible T-Wave from Ferrotornm and I don't even think Forretress is used for hazards much). It can't switch in on many hazard setter because its checked by rock and steel types which carry Stealth Rock / Spikes.
I have no idea what the Refresh set is, why it should be used, and why you brought it up lol wtf. Work Up set is w/e and Defog is kinda pointless considering you have an amazing Defogger in Staraptor. Can't expand more because these sets are barely even viable. Its role is a revenge killer, if you think it can't perform that role well either feel free to reply to this but please remember the two points at the start of this post since you completely ignored them in your previous reply.

All that being said though, i'll expand on my nomination a bit more. I've compared Mega Pidgeot to other B ranked Pokemon enough but if we compare it to other A ranked Pokemon:

Diggersby and Meloetta: The type's two strongest wallbreakers and no doubt invaluable to Normal teams although I personally think Diggersby is a lot more important. Mega Pidgeot is, similar to how those two are the type's best wallbreakers, the premier revenge killer. Kinda hard to expand more since theire roles are different but I believe all three of them are just as necessary to a Normal team.

Ditto: Probably the most controversial Pokemon in the rankings, Ditto is an amazing revenge killer, especially to Pokemon that have set up, something Mega Pidgeot can't do. However, Mega Pidgeot is just as good a revenge killer in its own way, as it can actually beat Pokemon with recovery, which can easily stall out Ditto's meagre 5 PP per move. Furthermore, it isn't completely reliant on the foe's movesets and actually has some wallbreaking power.
 

Vid

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Here's next batch of changes
Mega Heracross and Houndoom will be ranked in next update so feel free to write a post about where they should be placed.
Normal
Mega Pidgeot B---->A
C---->D
Oranguru D---->Unranked
Komala D----->Unranked
Toucannon D---->Unranked
Dodrio B---->C
Heliolisk C--->B
Swellow B--->C
Bug
Shuckle A--->B
Vikavolt B---->C
Golisopod C---->D
Scyther D---->Unranked
Volbeat D---->Unranked
Ghost
Dhelmise B---->C
Gourgeist-Super B---->C
Drifblim C---->Unranked
Rotom C----> Unranked
Cofagrigus C--->D
Palossand D---->Unranked
Sableye B--->C
Psychic
Mega Alakazam A--->S
Gardevoir A---->B
Gallade C---->D
Espeon D---->Unranked
Medicham D---->Unranked
Wobbuffet D---->C
Ice
Aurorus B--->C
Ninetales-Alola A--->S
Cloyster B--->A
Beartic B--->C
Crabominable C---->Unranked
Abomasnow D--->Unranked
Ground
Gastrodon A--->B
Mega Steelix D--->C
Krookodile C--->B
Palossand D--->Unranked
Dark
Muk-Alola A--->S
Mandibuzz A--->S
Zoroark C--->D
Persian-Alola C--->D
Guzzlord D--->Unranked
Fighting
Kommo-o B---->A
Chesnaught C--->D
Machamp C--->D
Hariyama D--->Unranked
Sawk D---->Unranked
Crabominable D--->Unranked
Water
Pelipper A--->B
Kingdra A---->B
Quagsire B--->C
Tentacruel B--->C
Starmie B--->C
Golisopod C--->Unranked
Grass
Leavanny C--->D
Dhelmise B--->C
Tsareena D--->Unranked
Roserade C--->D
Electric
Vikavolt C--->D
Rotom-Mow D--->Unranked
Steel
Scizor B--->D
Dugtrio-Alola D--->Unranked
Poison
Amoonguss D--->C
Weezing C--->D
Toxicroak C--->D
Roserade D---->Unranked
Dragon
Guzzlord D--->Unranked
Fire
Houndoom D--->Unranked
Arcanine C--->D
Rock
Lycanroc B--->C
Kabutops D--->Unranked
Gigalith D--->Unranked
 

Havens

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Thoughts on the New Megas as it Looks on Paper (I'll make it short and sweet):

Mega Heracross:


Unranked -> B (Bug)

Mega Heracross is fantastic; Having a base 185 Attack with access to SD, as well as the ability Skill Link with many nice multi-hit moves such as Rock Blast, Pin Missile, Bullet Seed, and Arm Thrust make it a very potent Sash breaker and Wall Breaker, as well as the hardest hitting Mega between itself, Scizor and Pinsir at base value. That being said, Mega Scizor and Pinsir just outclass it. Scizor's better defensive typing and recovery beat out Heracross in the longevity department. Pinsir's Speed and Ability make it more of an Immediate threat to common Base 100 Speed Mons or those around that range such as Lando-I and the Mega Charizards, while also having the ability to break bulkier walls that Heracross can't immediately such as Mega Venusaur and Clefable. Despite these weaknesses, it is still a very powerful force that shouldn't be taken lightly, and definitely has the options to be taken to another level, but for right now, I believe it should be deserving of B rank.

Unranked -> B (Fighting)

I can't really tell what it is about this mon on Fighting right now, but I feel like that it can do incredibly well with the right setup. It beats out Buzzwole in terms of power, with arguably better natural bulk, STAB and options without being forced to hold a necessary item like Scarf/Band or Z-Crystal. Also, it pairs nicely with Breloom in the fact that it can assist in breaking sashes and Sturdy. However, other mons such as Terrakion, Keldeo, Infernape and Cobalion do so much more for the type in general. I'm not too sure how this mon will develop in the meta (granted I don't play Fighting much), so I personally would place it at B rank for now, and wait to see how it can be optimized.

Mega Houndoom:


Unranked -> A (Dark)

Another Fairy neutrality is something Dark would highly appreciate right now, considering that it outright loses to one of the best types in the meta (Fairy). With a solid Speed Tier, an even better Special Attack Stat, and access to powerful STAB plus Nasty Plot, this special wallbreaker allows Dark to handle relatively bad matchups a bit easier, while also making its teammates run moves more freely (Greninja wouldn't be forced to run HP Fire, Krookodile wouldn't have to be a "check" to Magearna). Running this mon may be a risk considering you utilize this mon over Mega Sableye, the overall defensive wall and status/hazard reflector that it is. While that decision is a hard choice to make, you can't deny that this mon has some very good arguments for dealing with its crippling weaknesses, and until something changes, it should be deserving of A rank.

Unranked -> C (Fire)

Houndoom doesn't do as much here on Fire as it does for Dark, for the Zards outclass it with better coverage and recovery. However, that doesn't mean it's useless. Houndoom's Solar Power paired with Torkoal's sun setting makes any special attacks it dishes out special nukes without having to use Nasty Plot. The problem with that is it's constant HP loss, and with no sort of reliable recovery, it doesn't stay out for too long without suffering heavy damage. Unfortunately it does practically nothing compared to the other options on Fire, but has some use, so it should at least deserve C rank.
 
So I decided to reserve my thoughts on Mega Houndoom and Mega Heracross's rankings until after I tested both of them on Bug, Fighting, Dark, and Fire respectively. Here's what I think of where these megas should be:




Mega Houndoom: Unranked=>A (Dark) and Unranked=>C (Fire)

I agree with C9's nominations on Mega Houndoom right now. On Dark, it serves as a great Mega for offensive Dark teams that can offer a few things that Mega Sharpedo can't. It serves as a great asset in the extremely problematic Fairy matchup, with its great coverage in Fire Blast+Sludge Bomb and turning Klefki into easy setup bait thanks to the Prankster nerf making it immune to Thunder Wave. It also serves as an incredibly potent special wallbreaker with Nasty Plot, being able to heavily dent balanced cores that Dark tends to struggle with, seen on Fairy, Poison, Grass, and Steel. Here's the set that I think is the best for Dark teams right now:

Houndoom-Mega @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Bomb
- Nasty Plot


On Fire, it shouldn't come as a surprise that the Mega Charizards are far, far better. While Mega Houndoom has a few things over them, such as a better immediate Speed tier over Mega Charizard X and a setup move over Mega Charizard Y, both of them are still broadly more beneficial and viable. As C9 said, though, it isn't entirely hopeless. I would definitely agree that it would be the most suitable in C rank on Fire.




Mega Heracross: Unranked=>B (Bug) and Unranked=>A (Fighting)

On Bug, I definitely didn't think it would be too amazing, and I can't say I was wrong either. With Mega Pinsir and Mega Scizor being extremely potent assets for Bug teams, and Choice Scarf Heracross being a really great source of speed control, I didn't expect Mega Heracross to shine all that much. However, after testing it, it has proven to be a decent wallbreaker. With nice coverage options in Bullet Seed and Rock Blast, it's capable of breaking through some tough threats to Bug such as Zapdos and Hippowdon. It's better overall bulk gives it something else over Buzzwole, which usually has to run a Choice item and doesn't have the freedom to switch between moves most of the time. I'm not necessarily saying that one is better than the other on Bug, but Mega Heracross definitely has its shining qualities. I can't see it being an extremely relevant asset to Bug teams(definitely not as much as Mega Pinsir and Mega Scizor), so I think B rank would be the most suitable for it.

On Fighting, I think it'll be a lot more prevalent. Fighting greatly appreciates something else that can break through Mega Slowbro and Mega Venusaur. Since Fighting severely lacks good defensive Pokemon, having something with really great 80/115/105 bulk is definitely beneficial. It exceeds Buzzwole in the fact that it can do better in the Ground matchup, since Scarf Buzzwole is walled by Hippowdon and Banded Buzzwole isn't too difficult for Ground to revenge kill. It's also capable of breaking through certain cores on Water such as Swampert+Mantine. While it does mean giving up Choice Scarf Heracross, Mega Heracross's wallbreaking potential and great bulk is well worth it and grants itself a spot on A rank.
 

mushamu

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Rotom-Mow

B --> A (Grass)

I've been using this Pokémon a lot on Grass and I think it does a lot for the team. It takes down Celesteela, Mega Pinsir, and puts pressure on Pokémon such as Charizard. The Scarf set speed checks a lot of things, such as most dragon dancers after one boost. Volt switch works in conjunction with Grass's ability to hazard stack, forcing switches and getting damage off. Rotom-Mow has utility moves such as Will o Wisp, Trick, and thunder wave, which grass can all use. Now that Mega Pidgeot has been released, I think Rotom-Mow has a more valuable spot on Grass. Therefore, I nominate Rotom-Mow for an A rank on Grass.
 
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Rotom-Mow

B --> A (Grass)

I've been using this Pokémon a lot on Grass and I think it does a lot for the team. It takes down Celesteela, Mega Pinsir, and puts pressure on Pokémon such as Charizard. The Scarf set speed checks a lot of things, such as most dragon dancers after one boost. Volt switch works in conjunction with Grass's ability to hazard stack, forcing switches and getting damage off. Rotom-Mow has utility moves such as Will o Wisp, Trick, and thunder wave, which grass can all use. Now that Mega Pidgeot has been released, I think Rotom-Mow has a more valuable spot on Grass. Therefore, I nominate Rotom-Mow for an A rank on Grass.

Mega Pidgeot is already checked by Cradily, and Normal can easily switch into either Chansey to sponge a hit or Diggersby to prevent a Volt Switch from happening. While I will admit that it can help against Mega Pinsir a bit more than Scarf Tapu Bulu does, Scarf Tapu Bulu can actually OHKO Mega Charizard Y, while also pressuring threats like Victini, Nidoking, and Heatran. I'm not saying that it's a bad idea to run both, though. Its utility is nice, but I just don't think it's very deserving of A rank, especially compared to the other A ranks. Cradily, Tapu Bulu, and Breloom provide next to irreplaceable roles for Grass, and Rotom Mow simply doesn't,which is why I think it should stay at B rank.
 

mushamu

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is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
Mega Pidgeot is already checked by Cradily, and Normal can easily switch into either Chansey to sponge a hit or Diggersby to prevent a Volt Switch from happening. While I will admit that it can help against Mega Pinsir a bit more than Scarf Tapu Bulu does, Scarf Tapu Bulu can actually OHKO Mega Charizard Y, while also pressuring threats like Victini, Nidoking, and Heatran. I'm not saying that it's a bad idea to run both, though. Its utility is nice, but I just don't think it's very deserving of A rank, especially compared to the other A ranks. Cradily, Tapu Bulu, and Breloom provide next to irreplaceable roles for Grass, and Rotom Mow simply doesn't,which is why I think it should stay at B rank.
Bringing Cradily out on Pidgeot Mega just gives it a free pivot into Diggers. Then you have to have something on your team take a fire punch from diggers, which isn't healthy considering your team is full of grass. If they go into Chansey, just volt switch out, bring breloom in and do w/e. I honestly don't know why the opponent would bring out diggers on Mowtom considering mowtom runs leaf storm 99.9 percent of the time. Also Scarf Bulu is a sweeper with high Attack, not a pivot. It can't really dent Celesteela, one of the biggest threats against grass considering Steel/Flying/Fire coverage pretty much nails everything on the team.
 
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