M&M Mix and Mega

Dunfan

formerly Dunsparce Fanboy
Just a thought, but it would be interesting and fun if the most common megas were given custom sprites. (pixilate zygarde, sablenite blissey, etc.) It would just add more flavor to the games.
If this happened, then MnM would fall into the category of Pet Mods, sadly.
 
Just a thought, but it would be interesting and fun if the most common megas were given custom sprites. (pixilate zygarde, sablenite blissey, etc.) It would just add more flavor to the games.
but then they'd be 2d while the rest of the pokemon aren't.
models are an option but they take ages and i doubt the devs will even let them be added

edit: Dunsparce Fanboy I'm not sure that true. I think only stuff that actually affects gameplay can change the category, which sprites don't do.
 
but then they'd be 2d while the rest of the pokemon aren't.
models are an option but they take ages and i doubt the devs will even let them be added

edit: Dunsparce Fanboy I'm not sure that true. I think only stuff that actually affects gameplay can change the category, which sprites don't do.
:(
2d sprites wouldn't really be an issue, CAP does it, but point 2 about the devs not letting them be added seems realistic.
 

drampa's grandpa

cannonball
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Just a thought, but it would be interesting and fun if the most common megas were given custom sprites. (pixilate zygarde, sablenite blissey, etc.) It would just add more flavor to the games.
44 legal stones × over 400 mega legal mons = over 17000 = no

Even just common ones is a huge amount of work.
 
the problem is finding someone who can be bothered + skilled enough to do this quite mundane, unnecessary and extremely time-consuming task
 

Dunfan

formerly Dunsparce Fanboy
but then they'd be 2d while the rest of the pokemon aren't.
models are an option but they take ages and i doubt the devs will even let them be added

edit: Dunsparce Fanboy I'm not sure that true. I think only stuff that actually affects gameplay can change the category, which sprites don't do.
Well, according to the Pet Mods: Rules and Regulations thread : "Pet Mods have a set of subjective changes, which are changes that the creator chose for rather than being based upon a rule that's enforced. "

The mega stone isn't made for a mon other than it's original user. The original user already gets its appearance changed by the stone made for it... so it would make sense than any other change would fall into the category of pet mods.

Of course i may be wrong, if then : my bad, excuse-me.

EDIT: I forgot an important point - Mix and Mega already affects the gameplay, even if it affects it with a global rule. So you would have both a gameplay change and a sprite change.
 
Well, according to the Pet Mods: Rules and Regulations thread : "Pet Mods have a set of subjective changes, which are changes that the creator chose for rather than being based upon a rule that's enforced. "

The mega stone isn't made for a mon other than it's original user. The original user already gets its appearance changed by the stone made for it... so it would make sense than any other change would fall into the category of pet mods.

Of course i may be wrong, if then : my bad, excuse-me.

EDIT: I forgot an important point - Mix and Mega already affects the gameplay, even if it affects it with a global rule. So you would have both a gameplay change and a sprite change.
No, but the sprite change itself doesn't affect gameplay and so shouldn't change this OM's category AFAIK
I'm still against the idea, though.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
A similar story to why Dragonite is banned. Abuse of bulk boosting ability pre-mega into powerful -ate attacker post-mega.
Actually because zygarde complete increases the hp stat it keeps the hp boost, so it would be super bulky and powerful
 
Actually because zygarde complete increases the hp stat it keeps the hp boost, so it would be super bulky and powerful
Have you ever considered not arguing witht he metagame owners about what there metagame is like? In any case, similarly to MMX evolving into flat MMY with mewtwonite Y, in Mix and Mega the assumption is that pokemon revert to there base form, then Mega evolve, so long as its an in battle change. This is also why Ash greninja reverts when it mega evolves.
 
Just a thought, but it would be interesting and fun if the most common megas were given custom sprites. (pixilate zygarde, sablenite blissey, etc.) It would just add more flavor to the games.
Custom graphics of M&M metagame staples would be a better idea. Like the header for this thread's OP.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Have you ever considered not arguing witht he metagame owners about what there metagame is like? In any case, similarly to MMX evolving into flat MMY with mewtwonite Y, in Mix and Mega the assumption is that pokemon revert to there base form, then Mega evolve, so long as its an in battle change. This is also why Ash greninja reverts when it mega evolves.
the point is you get knocked down low, and then you gain lets say 200 hp. you go to 200/400, then transform into 400/600. Then when you mega, you would be 400/400 again.
Have you ever considered not being a condescending asshole and actually understanding what other people are saying?
edit: like what did you think i meant? zygarde doesn't get any phys def or spdef boost upon transforming, it literally only gets an hp boost lol. (and speed drop and special attack raise)
 
the point is you get knocked down low, and then you gain lets say 200 hp. you go to 200/400, then transform into 400/600. Then when you mega, you would be 400/400 again.
Have you ever considered not being a condescending asshole and actually understanding what other people are saying?
edit: like what did you think i meant? zygarde doesn't get any phys def or spdef boost upon transforming, it literally only gets an hp boost lol. (and speed drop and special attack raise)
That's not what you said, though:
Actually because zygarde complete increases the hp stat it keeps the hp boost, so it would be super bulky and powerful
To quote, "it keeps the hp boost," which it does not. Zygarde that mega evolves from Zygarde-C would not be any bulkier than regular zygarde, and indeed would most likely be less so because you probably wouldn't get injured exactly that much while setting up, which goes against both the first and the second half of your sentence. The advantage is, as Chloe said, simply that of greater ease in setting up, plus some miscellaneous utility in not mega evolving instantly.
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Zygarde that mega evolves from Zygarde-C would not be any bulkier than regular zygarde, and indeed would most likely be less so because you probably wouldn't get injured exactly that much while setting up, which goes against both the first and the second half of your sentence. The advantage is, as Chloe said, simply that of greater ease in setting up, plus some miscellaneous utility in not mega evolving instantly.
> you probably wouldn't get injured exactly that much while setting up
> greater ease in setting up
I love when people contradict themselves in their own post
 
> you probably wouldn't get injured exactly that much while setting up
> greater ease in setting up
I love when people contradict themselves in their own post
By exactly that much, I mean "exactly the same as the gain from complete, leaving you at 100%," Which is for obvious reasons unlikely to happen. In any case, the bulk comparison is that of Regular Altarianite/Pinsirite Zygarde and complete Altarianite/Pinsirite Zygarde, between which there isn't any difference bar the fact that the complete one is already almost certainly damaged. The selling point of complete would eb that it is already set up at that point, while regular wouldn't be.

Personally, I hate it, as it means I have to fulfill my ingrained response and spend my time responding to bad posts in the MnM thread, but if it makes you happy more power to you.
 
Power Construct Zygarde is banned from holding/evolving with mega stones. It will never be unbanned nor will it ever be discussed for being unbanned. This discussion is pointless and is clogging up the thread can it please end.
 
That's literally just what they said reworded, isn't it?
Uhhh I don't think so... I just meant more things like the Lucarionite Keldeo and Blue Orb Golisopod banner thats on the first post.

Are there any good Z move users that would usually run a stone instead? The one stone clause might have granted some new opportunity in this area.
 

dhelmise

everything is embarrassing
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> you probably wouldn't get injured exactly that much while setting up
> greater ease in setting up
I love when people contradict themselves in their own post
By exactly that much, I mean "exactly the same as the gain from complete, leaving you at 100%," Which is for obvious reasons unlikely to happen. In any case, the bulk comparison is that of Regular Altarianite/Pinsirite Zygarde and complete Altarianite/Pinsirite Zygarde, between which there isn't any difference bar the fact that the complete one is already almost certainly damaged. The selling point of complete would eb that it is already set up at that point, while regular wouldn't be.

Personally, I hate it, as it means I have to fulfill my ingrained response and spend my time responding to bad posts in the MnM thread, but if it makes you happy more power to you.
If it makes you guys feel better you're both wrong
 

Laxpras

One small yeet for man, one giant yeet for mankind
Ubers Holding Stones

MnM needs to set much more clear standards to decide which Ubers Pokemon are and are not allowed to hold Mega Stones than the very arbitrary system already in place.

Currently, the MnM leadership has more-or-less cherry picked which Ubers to unban. Marshadow for example, was allowed despite its well noted perfect STAB combo, access to one of the more broken moves in the game, STAB Priority, fast speed, and high attack. Remember when Arceus-Ghost was one of the best mons in MnM? Lol same but then Marshadow happened. Hopefully, Marshadow will be banned in this suspect but it exemplifies the problems with cherry-picking unbans.

To further this, why are Deo-D and Deo-S allowed? Deo-S is at least guaranteed rocks, likely a set of spikes, and is the fastest taunt in the game. This set was allowed in AAA for some reason last gen, and I can personally speak to how powerful it is, do not underestimate how powerful guaranteed hazards are. On top of this, Pidgeotite Deo-S has Zap Cannon, Focus Blast, Blizzard, and Nasty Plot. Nasty Plot even tears through Blissey, and we all know how powerful/annoying Zap Cannon spam can be.

Then Deo-D is allowed. There was a push to ban Cresselia, but no push for DeoD. Yes Cresselia gets Calm Mind, but DeoD gets Cosmic Power, Recover, Taunt, and even better defenses. With Sablenite, DeoD can be damn hard to break.

What about Darkrai? The arguments I've seen against Darkrai is sleep spam, but we have Gengar and that hasn't been a problem due to all of the Magic Bounce in the meta. Is Darkrai that much stronger than Gengar that it should be banned but Gengar shouldn't? Why? How is this decided?

I can keep going. Is Zekrom that broken? Isn't Tapu Koko even stronger than Zekrom with Electric Terrain, and it is also faster? Why is Zekrom banned but Koko isn't? Is Reshiram really better than Volcarona? Volcarona gets Quiver Dance. By the arbitrary standard we currently have, I really think I could justify Zekrom and Reshiram being unban worthy. (Obviously the answer to my rhetorical questions are bc those 2 are Ubers - esteemed council "guaranteed win" IT11 even said he could theoretically see these two being unbanned, my point is this logic isn't used universally across the meta).

I'm not advocating to unban all of these, my own opinion is quite different (Marshadow should be banned, DeoS should be banned, DeoD should be banned). I am advocating that the MnM leadership outline how these decisions should be made in a way that is different then "DeoS has lower stats so unban, but Darkrai can sleep so ban!"

Clearly it is too late to start in what I consider the right way (all ubers banned and try each one individually), but something should be done.
 

Chloe

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Ubers Holding Stones

MnM needs to set much more clear standards to decide which Ubers Pokemon are and are not allowed to hold Mega Stones than the very arbitrary system already in place.

Currently, the MnM leadership has more-or-less cherry picked which Ubers to unban. Marshadow for example, was allowed despite its well noted perfect STAB combo, access to one of the more broken moves in the game, STAB Priority, fast speed, and high attack. Remember when Arceus-Ghost was one of the best mons in MnM? Lol same but then Marshadow happened. Hopefully, Marshadow will be banned in this suspect but it exemplifies the problems with cherry-picking unbans.

To further this, why are Deo-D and Deo-S allowed? Deo-S is at least guaranteed rocks, likely a set of spikes, and is the fastest taunt in the game. This set was allowed in AAA for some reason last gen, and I can personally speak to how powerful it is, do not underestimate how powerful guaranteed hazards are. On top of this, Pidgeotite Deo-S has Zap Cannon, Focus Blast, Blizzard, and Nasty Plot. Nasty Plot even tears through Blissey, and we all know how powerful/annoying Zap Cannon spam can be.

Then Deo-D is allowed. There was a push to ban Cresselia, but no push for DeoD. Yes Cresselia gets Calm Mind, but DeoD gets Cosmic Power, Recover, Taunt, and even better defenses. With Sablenite, DeoD can be damn hard to break.

What about Darkrai? The arguments I've seen against Darkrai is sleep spam, but we have Gengar and that hasn't been a problem due to all of the Magic Bounce in the meta. Is Darkrai that much stronger than Gengar that it should be banned but Gengar shouldn't? Why? How is this decided?

I can keep going. Is Zekrom that broken? Isn't Tapu Koko even stronger than Zekrom with Electric Terrain, and it is also faster? Why is Zekrom banned but Koko isn't? Is Reshiram really better than Volcarona? Volcarona gets Quiver Dance. By the arbitrary standard we currently have, I really think I could justify Zekrom and Reshiram being unban worthy. (Obviously the answer to my rhetorical questions are bc those 2 are Ubers - esteemed council "guaranteed win" IT11 even said he could theoretically see these two being unbanned, my point is this logic isn't used universally across the meta).

I'm not advocating to unban all of these, my own opinion is quite different (Marshadow should be banned, DeoS should be banned, DeoD should be banned). I am advocating that the MnM leadership outline how these decisions should be made in a way that is different then "DeoS has lower stats so unban, but Darkrai can sleep so ban!"

Clearly it is too late to start in what I consider the right way (all ubers banned and try each one individually), but something should be done.
You do make a fair point, as we have never really provided an unambiguous answer as to why certain Ubers are permitted and others are not. The best answer I can give you is that the initial Gen 7 leadership arbitrarily unbanned many Ubers and blatantly broken Pokémon, and after progression into this metagame only the clearly broken Pokémon have been looked into due to the constant introduction of Mega Stones during this generation. Simply put, we haven't had the time to take a look at these Pokémon, nor was a sufficient argument made to really discuss the criteria in which we unbanned Pokémon.

However, as I say this I do not see much wrong with the current system, but instead a misunderstanding made by users due to lack of clarification. Rather than viewing it as an Ubers banlist, regard it as us only allowing Pokémon, that when given a stone can compete with the likes of top tier Ubers Pokémon. The current banlist allows Pokémon you state like Deoxys-Defense and Deoxys-Speed to mega evolve. As you stated, Cresselia was looked into and Deoxys-Defense wasn't. This was a mistake, as neither should have been suspect tested at this point in time. Neither has had the potency or prevalence to convince any user that they deserve to be re-evaluated. This was another issue from the previous leadership. I don't see an issue with this cherry-picking, so as we're keeping the metagame balanced. In summary, rather than viewing this as a myriad of Ubers unbans, view the banlist as its own separate entity. We've established a median in which Pokémon over said barrier are banned and those that lack potency remain.

As for individual queries. Darkrai was quickbanned after a unanimous decision was made that its combination of guaranteed sleep inducing in tandem with its set-up capabilities was deemed too overwhelming in comparison to the rest of the metagame. Shaymin-Sky was banned due to its ability to guarantee sleep in tandem with the capabilities of Seed Flare, which was also deemed too overwhelming. Gengar however lacks a solid niche that provides it with the ability to surpass the aforementioned bar. Its most redeeming quality on top of guaranteed sleep is being able to use Hex, which isn't enough to make it the formidable Pokémon it wants to be.

Marshadow remained in the metagame due to the plethora of answers both offense and bulkier playstyles had to deal with it. Offense had an abundance of priority and the relief that Marshadow had a very noticeable inability to OHKO many common offensive Pokémon, while being frail enough in return. Bulkier playstyles had Sablenite users, the common Aggronite Buzzwole and the ubiquitous support Arceus formes that plague any Ubers-based metagame. However, since the adjustment of the Stone Clause, the amount of priority users has inevitably fallen and so has the ability to run dual Sablenite. Both archetypes suffered immensely and Marshadow's influence has obviously increased. My impression was it always had this level of power, but the decision made at that time was based on public opinion at the time. Hence, it wasn't quickbanned, and a council decision was made to wait until after OMPL before taking any action.

Deoxys-Speed can have a solid argument made against it but I'm also against the opinion that it requires a ban or suspect at this point in time. Its Gyaradosite set is great at setting hazards, but being a great hazard setter isn't something its stone allows it to do, it sets them regardless. Its hazard setting ability is unparalleled, but this isn't preventing the usage of other hazard setters. The potency of Sticky Web in the current metagame allows Shuckle to see more usage than Deoxys-Speed in total when considering its Pidgeotite set as well. Pidgeotite Deoxys-Speed looks incredibly overwhelming on paper but can only rarely justify use in practice. I would be open to a discussion on Deoxys-Speed however.

Just to clarify, while I understand your post wasn't questioning why certain Ubers were unbanned but rather the reasoning for the arbitrariness of the unbans we have. I'll state that you should be viewing Mix and Mega as a custom banlist rather than a modifcation of the Ubers banlist, as well as us setting our own "Ubers" bar just like OU has; however, one that was more suited for a metagame such as this. If anything I said didn't make sense, I'm on two hours of sleep right now, I can clarify anything later if need be.
 
On top of this, Pidgeotite Deo-S has Zap Cannon, Focus Blast, Blizzard, and Nasty Plot.
Deo-S does not get Blizzard. The Pidgeotite Deo-S set is very underwhelming, it can be OHKOed by most atespeed users, and when it comes to power, it simply lies on how annoying it can be with paralysis, since Psycho Boost, it's best offensive move, severely cripples it. Nasty Plot can make up for this lack of power but not only will it take a slot away from coverage (pick 3: Zap Cannon, Focus Blast, Psycho Boost, Ice Beam) it will be costly for Deoxys to setup because of how frail it is since Blissey 3hkoes with Seismic Toss / Shadow Ball or the opponent gets to switch in something better. The Gyaradosite version is clearly strong but needs quite a lot of support to pressure the defog user(s) or else it's just sack fodder.

I'm not great with wording and I'm on mobile but I hope I was clear enough.

E: Deo-D is also very underwhelming, while Cosmic Power + High Defenses + Recover seem great on paper, its abysmal HP makes it unable to face Blissey, who can just spam seismic toss. It also does nothing better than Toxic and stall which is easily dealt with using steel types or sablenite, both of which are very common. Slow Taunt is close to useless since any Mold Breaker rock setter or toxic user will still be able to do it regardless. Cresselia on the other hand has more than the double of deo-d's hp, which makes a lot of difference, and has pressure with Calm Mind + Moonblast / Psyshock.
 
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The Pidgeotite Deo-S set is very underwhelming, it can be OHKOed by most atespeed users
No atespeed user can OHKO it
252+ Atk Pixilate Entei Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 205-243 (85 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 190-225 (78.8 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 190-225 (78.8 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 190-225 (78.8 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 201-237 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-Speed: 201-237 (83.4 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's Adamant Nature, so if you run Jolly Nature, you can't OHKO it even after rocks (except Altarianite Entei, which have 31.3% chance of OHKO)
In return, DeoS OHKOes every atespeed user with either Psycho Boost if Altarianite, or Zap Cannon if Pinsirite (except Zygarde)

And with DeoS, you usually have Tapu Lele as a partner, who protects him from priorites of Weavile and atespeeds users, and get a Terrain-boosted Psycho Boost which OHKOes even Pinsirite Zygarde.

252 Atk Tough Claws Marshadow Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Deoxys-Speed: 186-218 (77.1 - 90.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
ye.

This means that you usually have 1 atespeed user in a team, DeoS can now outspeed everything and continue its Psycho-Boost RK spamming (or just paralyse another mon with Zap Cannon)
 

thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Deo-S does not get Blizzard. The Pidgeotite Deo-S set is very underwhelming, it can be OHKOed by most atespeed users, and when it comes to power, it simply lies on how annoying it can be with paralysis, since Psycho Boost, it's best offensive move, severely cripples it. Nasty Plot can make up for this lack of power but not only will it take a slot away from coverage (pick 3: Zap Cannon, Focus Blast, Psycho Boost, Ice Beam) it will be costly for Deoxys to setup because of how frail it is since Blissey 3hkoes with Seismic Toss / Shadow Ball or the opponent gets to switch in something better. The Gyaradosite version is clearly strong but needs quite a lot of support to pressure the defog user(s) or else it's just sack fodder.

I'm not great with wording and I'm on mobile but I hope I was clear enough.

E: Deo-D is also very underwhelming, while Cosmic Power + High Defenses + Recover seem great on paper, its abysmal HP makes it unable to face Blissey, who can just spam seismic toss. It also does nothing better than Toxic and stall which is easily dealt with using steel types or sablenite, both of which are very common. Slow Taunt is close to useless since any Mold Breaker rock setter or toxic user will still be able to do it regardless. Cresselia on the other hand has more than the double of deo-d's hp, which makes a lot of difference, and has pressure with Calm Mind + Moonblast / Psyshock.
You say that it gets ohkod by most atespeed users, but this is because people run bad spreads. deo-s doesn't need to run max speed, i run enough for scarf xern + diancite lele and the extra hp lets it live most atespeeds as well as fleur from magearna, so just putting this out there
 

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