Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v4

Status
Not open for further replies.
Diancie + Bulu seems like an incredible core. Bulu not only sets the grassy terrain that weakens the ground type moves for diancie, but it can also lure on every single diancie counter or at least weaken it to a point that it dies to a single atack. I think fightinium can be the best with diancie because it can weaken celesteela, magearna and AV tangrowth (not AV just falls to 2 moonblast). Rockium and grassium can also be good.
They also have good defensive sinergy, resisting all of the other weakneses except for steel.
I'm excited to use diancie
 
Mega diancie is out, i repeat mega diancie is out. Time to pack your av magearnas and celesteelas everyone


For real though mega diancie looks really solid and looks like it will definitely shake up the meta, i cant wait to see how it fares
It's not out on Showdown :(
 
Mega Diancie? God, if there's one mega I'm excited to use right now it's that thing.

It got nothing but straight-up buffs. Dugtrio's existence kinda hurts it, but I doubt that would remain a thing for too long.

If that thing isn't A+ or even S idk what to say. From being able to speed tie with fellow 110s while running HP Fire to getting +2 defense half the time from Diamond Storm to getting Power Gem for more special sets to no longer being forced to run Protect, letting Sharpen, CM, and RP variants run amok with far better coverage, literally everything but a metagame trend or two is going for this thing.

I said it when SuMo were released, so long ago, and I'll say it again: Mega Diancie is going to be huge in this meta. Mark my words.
 
Mega diancie looks like a nice answer to a-veil teams, a-ninetales can't set up, and neighter of the most common mons can safely switch on it, zygarde, ttar, manaphy, lando-t, magearna, conkledurr(I heard something about on the VR, but doesn't seems the better mon to use). The only one that I can't think that doesn't get 2KOed by moonblast/earth power is suicune, wich get 3KOed, not te best switch in. Ironically diancie can't OKO neighter of those mons, so probably it will remove something and then will be treathen by something else, but if you pair it with volt turn support you can come in and get a kill every turn a-ninetales appears
 
I hope mega Diancie is hot trash in this meta because Koko, Magearna, and Bulu while having less defensive utility but fairy spam is pretty dumb and it still has immense presence vs fucking hell.

My only wish is that it's like Mega Lopunny, both do great vs offense but struggle vs balance. This meta is way more centered towards balanced and stall which may be issues.
 
Last edited:

Deleted User 400951

Banned deucer.
Mega Diancie? God, if there's one mega I'm excited to use right now it's that thing.

It got nothing but straight-up buffs. Dugtrio's existence kinda hurts it, but I doubt that would remain a thing for too long.

If that thing isn't A+ or even S idk what to say. From being able to speed tie with fellow 110s while running HP Fire to getting +2 defense half the time from Diamond Storm to getting Power Gem for more special sets to no longer being forced to run Protect, letting Sharpen, CM, and RP variants run amok with far better coverage, literally everything but a metagame trend or two is going for this thing.

I said it when SuMo were released, so long ago, and I'll say it again: Mega Diancie is going to be huge in this meta. Mark my words.
Actually, I think it's much worse this generation. HP Fire simply isn't strong enough to break through the extremely bulky steels this meta has. Sp. Def Celesteela and AV Magearna wall it to hell and back. Earth Power also doesn't hit many of them hard enough if at all, like Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Mega Scizor and Celesteela. This is in addition to many more offensive threats that can break it, such as Greninja, Tapu Bulu, and most notably, Rain, as Mega Swampert doesn't go too light on it. Also, Power Gem is outclassed entirely by Diamond Storm:
Diamond Storm will almost certainly be better than Power Gem. For starters, it simply is the more powerful option:

252 SpA Diancie-Mega Power Gem vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 153-181 (44.8 - 53%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 163-193 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO

Since Diamond Storm is so powerful in of itself, the lack of physical investment doesn't really matter. It also comes with the general merits of running a mixed attacker, like hitting special walls harder:

252 SpA Diancie-Mega Power Gem vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 109-130 (27.3 - 32.6%) -- 77.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 159-187 (39.9 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Add that to the fact that Diamond Storm got a buff this gen, giving it a 50% chance to double its defense, and there is almost no merit to running a fully special Diancie.

As for Diancie itself, gen 7 has turned out to be quite a mixed bag for it, as the rise in steels (primarily Magearna) pressure it considerably, the new offensive fairies this gen add increased competition for its role, and the low usage of Talonflame and Tornadus-T means it loses out on a lot of the merit for its typing. However, the new mega mechanics free up its final move slot, making it super hard to wall, and it still has some defensive utility, like checking Mega Pinsir. Add that to it just simply being so strong and fast and I'd imagine it to have quite a successful run in gen 7. Can't see it going lower than A or A-.
This post also notably points out the fall of Bird spam. Dark spam has also fallen off, and this really hurts its niche. I can see that both Earth Power and HP Fire might be necessary this generation because Rock/Fairy is just very easily walled. I'd also say it requires Dugtrio support alongside this. Even then, it's offensively dealt with quite easily due to the large number of threats it cannot switch into. Previously, it had decent bulk and a passable defensive typing that notably let it switch into Flying and Dark type moves. Now, it still has ok bulk but with Ground and Water moves even more prominent than last generation, it now essentially relies on a free switch-in.
You thought about it in a complete vacuum. You didn't account for what around it has changed, (other than the wise observation of Dugtrio, which you only thought one side about), which is literally the most important part lol. Think about the meta around it. It's a lot worse for it. Don't just theorymon lol.
As a result of its typing being much worse, it now requiring 2 moves to hit steels and there being more to offensively check it, I believe that Mega Diancie is nowhere near as good as last generation, and will likely find itself in A-, much less S lol.
That being said,
I hope mega Diancie is hot trash in this meta because Koko, Magearna, and Bulu while having less defensive utility but fairy spam is pretty dumb and it still has immense presence vs fucking hell.

My only wish is that it's like Mega Lopunny, both do great vs offense but struggle vs balance.
I don't think that it'll be trash, though. Magic Bounce is still godly for it, and it's still incredibly powerful. Rock/Fairy is walled by many common things but it hits a ton of things super effectively, most notably Fire and Dragon. Magic Bounce in particular is a huge boon because it lets it serve as some form of hazard control - not a reliable form, but some form - for offense, which will appreciate not having to fit in a Defogger. That being said, I still think that it's not very good in the meta, but it's not complete garbage.
Also, Mega Lopunny can do well against balance if you use PuP + Encore. If your team struggles vs offense, it can go for Fake Out + Quick Attack. I think that Mega Lopunny is somewhat slept on in this current metagame because while it is set-dependent, it can screw over a lot of teams.
 
Last edited:
Something I think will be interesting if Mega-Diancie becomes a big deal, will be seeing if Scizor rises again in either its base or Mega form. The meta is starved for hazard removal not named Mew or Latios, and dropping M-Diancie could be the thing that re-elevates Scizor. Granted, I'm sure whatever the standard Diancie sets will be will carry HP Fire, but Scizor would be able to force out even a RP set if brought in on a good read/revenge. Of course, as soon as that happens will see some kind of Lele/Diancie squads to counter Bullet Punch. Nevertheless, I think M-Diancie could lead to a small resurgence of Scizor play.
 
Mega Scizor already increased in usage and viability as one of the few mons to almost 6-0 Veil offense and other hyper offensive squads with SD.

Lele+Mega Diancie is something I would not use because the only thing Psychic Terrain does for Mega Diancie is block Fake Outs and Bullet Punches which can be useful but Mega Zam abuses the terrain much better.

Much more interesting to me is, as Raikou237 mentioned, Grassy Terrain to weaken the damage of Earthquake. This means that common checks found on offense like Scarf Chomp cannot deal with a healthy Mega Diancie anymore. It also allows you to switch into a Stealth Rocker with STAB Earthquake like Landorus-T and Garchomp, because even if they Earthquake you will survive and you can bounce back Stealth Rock without risking Mega Diancie like in ORAS.

Another interesting metagamechange could be Clefs and Mews running more Spd again, just like in ORAS so they have more playground against Mega Diancie. This might make Banded Zygarde much more threatening overall.

Protect on Mega Diancie is still a solid option imo so you can lead with it, Protect against everything to Mega Evolve safely turn 1 other than Dugtrioleads and then proceed to switch out and discourage your opponent from setting up hazards not only early game but also later. It also helps vs Greninja who never respects the mon on the field and loves to Spike on the predicted switch. If Choice Specs Greninja Spikes on your Protect, you get free hazard and a free attack off. If it Hydro Pumps, you can go to your Waterresist or predict them to switch. If they Dark Pulse predicting your Tang or Pex in the back, you get a free attack as well.
 
Interesting thing IMO is that the Rock Polish set can easily beat the Zard/Ttar/Dugtrio core. at +2 obviously he outspeeds all of them and can OHKO duggy and zard, plus can hit Tox hard if he has Earth Power. He is, however, stopped by balance without some sort of CM/Sharpen set or something. Double Dance set + Magnezone/Dugtrio could be really neat.

Alternatively, I'm going to pair him with Alolan Marowak, who beats balance and bulky mons that threaten him pretty easily, and use the RP set.

Interestingly, if you do pair him with Bulu, he gets Nature Power to have Energy Ball which hits... basically nothing. BUT - Koko gives it Thunderbolt which lets it hit Celesteela really hard.
 
Liking the look of Mega Latias.

Latias-Mega @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Reflect Type

This is the set I've been trying out. Credit to Vengeance417 for the initial idea with his CM set on the previous page. Speed EVs are for Garchomp, rest is physical bulk for good mixed bulk overall.

Basically this set came about because I was weak to CharY teams on a team I was building and had an open mega slot. Enter Mega Latias. Latias deals with CharY and Dutrio right out of the gate, but is weak to pursuit trapping by Tyranitar. That's where reflect type comes in. You outspeed and now you resist Pursuit, allowing you to safely heal up and/or switch out. Reflect type also helps it out against several other mons, such as Magearna, Mega Scizor, and Lele. Tbolt is mainly for Charizard Y but also just in general provides good synergy with ice beam ofc. Replacing it with another move if you feel killing CharY isn't a priority is probably a good bet. Recover is for consistently checking the stuff it needs to. Ice beam is for KOing Garchomps, Zygardes, and Landos after outspeeding them.
 
Liking the look of Mega Latias.

Latias-Mega @ Latiasite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 68 Def / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Reflect Type

This is the set I've been trying out. Credit to Vengeance417 for the initial idea with his CM set on the previous page. Speed EVs are for Garchomp, rest is physical bulk for good mixed bulk overall.

Basically this set came about because I was weak to CharY teams on a team I was building and had an open mega slot. Enter Mega Latias. Latias deals with CharY and Dutrio right out of the gate, but is weak to pursuit trapping by Tyranitar. That's where reflect type comes in. You outspeed and now you resist Pursuit, allowing you to safely heal up and/or switch out. Reflect type also helps it out against several other mons, such as Magearna, Mega Scizor, and Lele. Tbolt is mainly for Charizard Y but also just in general provides good synergy with ice beam ofc. Replacing it with another move if you feel killing CharY isn't a priority is probably a good bet. Recover is for consistently checking the stuff it needs to. Ice beam is for KOing Garchomps, Zygardes, and Landos after outspeeding them.
This is probably one of the better/best sets for Mega Latias. Reflect Type can probably be slashed with Defog or something, but the ability to not be Pursuit-trapped by Tyranitar is really nice, and it also lets you avoid obliteration from Magearna/Mega Scizor/etc.

Levitate is also a godsend because avoiding Spikes/Toxic Spikes is super important given that you have no Leftovers, and the given EV spread lets you avoid the OHKO from Jolly LO Garchomp's Dragon Claw (while outspeeding) and dodge the 2HKO from Banded Zygarde's Thousand Arrows about 75% of the time (assuming no Stealth Rock).

If your team can handle Garchomp/Timid Base 101 mons, running enough speed to outspeed Adamant Zygarde (32 Speed EVs with a Timid Nature) is sufficient and you can dump the rest in PhysDef.
 
While I made that defensive spread for Mega Latias, I think max speed is probably the way to go as the better spread as I find at least having a chance against Latios is way more important if you don't have as many defensive switchins to it. However, that spread, and bulkier spreads with less speed, can still work if you have enough Lati answers of your own to warrant it, or if you're running Thunder Wave to paralyze Latios on a Roost/Defog or something.

That being said, I'm loving Reflect Type right now. While one of its main purposes is dealing with Pursuit trappers, it also completely cock-blocks Ferrothorns who try to come in and Leech Seed for recovery, and you stall them out of Gyro Balls with ease.
 
While I made that defensive spread for Mega Latias, I think max speed is probably the way to go as the better spread as I find at least having a chance against Latios is way more important if you don't have as many defensive switchins to it. However, that spread, and bulkier spreads with less speed, can still work if you have enough Lati answers of your own to warrant it, or if you're running Thunder Wave to paralyze Latios on a Roost/Defog or something.

That being said, I'm loving Reflect Type right now. While one of its main purposes is dealing with Pursuit trappers, it also completely cock-blocks Ferrothorns who try to come in and Leech Seed for recovery, and you stall them out of Gyro Balls with ease.
It's pretty great. You can also avoid toxic from heatran and stall out magma storm. I'm using offensive latias tho as it is pretty damn bulky even without any investment and max sp.atk helps so much against celestela and pex.
 
Since I love fairy spam so much what would be a good fairy type partner for mega diancie aside from the obvious lele in the current meta? Experimented with azu but the meta still ain't kind to it and everything else bar bulu is more dugtrio bait which let's face it is not a good weakness to have.

All that said I'm interested In people's thoughts on mega altaria?, on paper it looks worse then it did on paper at the end of oras. Magerna and celeesta do it no favors and most teams have 1 if not 2 fairies now. It's far to reliant on its typing. Maybe I'm missing something but I just want to see what people come with.
 
Since I love fairy spam so much what would be a good fairy type partner for mega diancie aside from the obvious lele in the current meta? Experimented with azu but the meta still ain't kind to it and everything else bar bulu is more dugtrio bait which let's face it is not a good weakness to have.

All that said I'm interested In people's thoughts on mega altaria?, on paper it looks worse then it did on paper at the end of oras. Magerna and celeesta do it no favors and most teams have 1 if not 2 fairies now. It's far to reliant on its typing. Maybe I'm missing something but I just want to see what people come with.
I think Lele is actually quite a poor partner for Mega Diancie in the current meta since the two of them have no good synergy, sharing a plethora of both offensive and defensive checks. Lele can run Z-move lure sets or Choice Scarf but either way it only really offers immunity to priority, which isn't terribly important given how rare Mega Scizor is and how Greninja beats you regardless. In my opinion Koko and Bulu are far better options due to their ability to pressure many of Diancie's answers such as Magearna / Celesteela / Tangrowth. SD Bulu in particular beats almost every Diancie check imaginable and can switch into Ash-Greninja + Grounds pretty well to boot. These two also provide better support for Diancie: Koko is the best fast pivot atm and gives it the option to run Nature Power (Thunderbolt) to take on Celesteela itself, and Bulu's Grassy Terrain keeps Diancie healthy and allows it to check Landorus-T and Garchomp more confidently.
Beyond these two, I don't think many Fairies fit well.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I used Z Thunder Lele as a Diancie partner and it's not that bad because it helps beat down some of Diancie's checks and obviously providing priority immune is nice. Sharing weaknesses constrains the build, and I agree ultimately that Bulu and Koko are better partners.

BTW for Mega Latias I would just run 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Speed Timid to be honest. In ORAS there were times when people did the speed creep Garchomp thing and eventually all Latias were Timid max speed. Granted checking Choice Specs Keldeo is less important in this meta, but being able to win speed ties against opposing Lati and Mega Diancie can be absolutely huge especially if you run a Calm Mind variant. Not to mention outspeeding stuff like Kartana and Pinsir when needed. I've been using Roost / Calm Mind / Stored Power / Thunderbolt and I think it's pretty good. Shreds CelePex and has some good defensive utility, you can easily pair it with Dugtrio as well to remove Darks (aside from Greninja which can't switch in).
 
Since I love fairy spam so much what would be a good fairy type partner for mega diancie aside from the obvious lele in the current meta? Experimented with azu but the meta still ain't kind to it and everything else bar bulu is more dugtrio bait which let's face it is not a good weakness to have.

All that said I'm interested In people's thoughts on mega altaria?, on paper it looks worse then it did on paper at the end of oras. Magerna and celeesta do it no favors and most teams have 1 if not 2 fairies now. It's far to reliant on its typing. Maybe I'm missing something but I just want to see what people come with.
Interesting questions.

Regarding your first question. It's very easy finding a Fairy spam core in S/M. It's similar to Dark spam in ORAS – stack a team full of Dark-type attackers with mons like Tyranitar + Weavile. When using Dark spam, your defensive ability will be hurt pretty badly, but your offense vs. enemy Dark resists will be pretty neat since their health is dropping so fast, having to repeatedly take powerful Dark-type attacks. So, just use the same formula here – get a bunch of mons who use Fairy STAB and bingo – you have some Fairy flavored spam. Since you asked me not to name Tapu Lele, I shall respect that and point out Magearna is your only other option for fairy spam. The only mons in OU who use Fairy STAB are Mega Altaria, Mega Gardevoir, Tapu Lele, and maybe Tapu Koko, Tapu Fini, and Magearna. Out of all those, two of them conflict with Mega Diancie, one of them is on your banlist, and two of the mons have Fairy STABS which do low damage and are unsuitable for spam. This leaves only Magearna for fairy spam – a Choice Specs Magearna set with Fleur Cannon would yield best results.

The reason why I'm not identifying Tapu Koko and Tapu Bulu as partners (as Nihilego and bludz have done) is because I don't think it's spam at that point. Spam's definition is using a certain STAB type to slowly kill resistors to that type (like the Dark spam I mentioned earlier). Using Tapu Bulu on a team would be more akin to luring (using a move to eliminate a mon who would normally counter the lurer) since Tapu Bulu doesn't have a physical Fairy STAB, and using Tapu Koko on a team doesn't yield any obvious synergy with Diancie (aside from Nature Power and maybe a lure).

However, whether or not Fairy spam is effective in the meta is a different question entirely (and I think that's what drives Scarf Nihilego to discourage Tapu Lele). I wouldn't encourage Fairy spam, but what you do with your team is your own business.

Regarding your second question, Mega Altaria could be usable in S/M. Mega Altaria has very legitimate movesets available to him/her, whether it be a fat setupper, a fast setupper, or a fatmon in general. Altaria also stops mons like Charizard, Greninja-Ash, Tapu Bulu, and Tapu Koko. The only problem with Mega Altaria is that, while Altaria can counter some OU mons, the same goes for mons like Rhyperior and Snorlax. To warrant more usage, there has to be something outstanding about Altaria in the meta, something that justifies a use. It can be tough to find such a purpose for Altaria (though tbh I haven't looked very hard). Altaria does have a role in OU, but I wouldn't place bets on that role being very high.

I've been wrong before, though, so don't take what I say as a guarantee.
 
Honestly I think that tuning physical diance is at least vaible and worth attention. It insane damage do spdef celesteela (can 2hko even without rocks) and overall meta has very little rocks resist - ferothorn, magearna and... thats all! Moreover av magearna and ferothorn aren't that good swithchins. Like they both get heavily damage by hp fire and earth power respectively.

Beside that diamond storm got massive buff in this gen making it even better and AV magearna doesn't appreciate dugtrio. For fat teams you can use sharpen. I know it is kinda LOL move, but at +1 diamond storm kinda destroys everything.

+1 252 Atk Diancie-Mega Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.6 - 57.6%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO

That's best what stall has for diance.
 
diancie actually loses to dugtrio, which should be in every stall team.
Diamond Storm has a 50% chance to raise Defense by 2 stages. With no investment and just ONE boost, Z-Earthquake isn't even a guaranteed OHKO, and it's more than possible that you will have at least two boosts by the time Dugtrio comes in.
Let's not be so quick to attempt to correct people. Dugtrio is a decent countermeasure but far from a guaranteed answer.
 

A

Joker fan
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Probably old news but this is something dumb that I and a few others have been toying with (Twistful hi)
(proves S rank mon is busted tbh /s)

TRIO DUG (Magearna) @ Leftovers/Electrium Z
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 240 Atk / 16 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Shift Gear
- Iron Head
- Ice Beam/Focus Blast/Dazzling Gleam
- Thunderbolt

Iron Head sounds extremely iffy at first but it actually lets you muscle past usual answers in the form of Mega Venusaur and Chansey by just playing the flinch game. It also feigns a physical set, which would force pokemon like Toxapex to come in, only to get roasted by a combination of +1 Iron Head + Gigavolt Havoc. (also you have a 30% to beat dugtrio :^ )

(did i tell you it also absolutely swamps the double dance set)

(some dumb replays of it working)
Stall?
When you get outplayed for 75% of the match but you still win.
Won
TTAR
Thicc Break
Twistful's Variant
Robopoke's Variant


tldr you can probably run anything on mag and it'll work :^

(edit: you can also run naive)
 
Last edited:
We all know that shed shell on thapex is basically standard these days, but some Chanseys have been running Skill Swap so they too aren't trapped and KOd by Dugtrio. A lot of fat mons are having to adjust their sets so Duggy doesn't rip them to shreds.

Scarf Kartana, as mentioned in the OLT discussion thread, is rising in usage since it can clean easily if it nabs a boost. STABs aren't that spammable but they work fairly well. Fightinium Z is still slept on since it beats most fat teams on its own, and Steelium capitalizes on Mega Venus that think they're safe. What Z Kartana really has going for it rn is the declining usage of Tangrowth and that Duggy mostly runs Groundium Z instead of Focus Sash, since the latter always wins 1v1 while the former can't OHKO with Z EQ.

HO in general doesn't seem that good but the updated version of Xtra Chirp$ (with Mimikyu over Talonflame) has been getting surprisingly good results. Hazard-stack oriented HO is ok but keeping layers up is somewhat challenging with Mew and Latios everywhere.

Ash Gren and Koko are basically the face of bulky offense and offer a lot of power and momentum to every team. Nothing new there.

Mega Diancie is good, Mega Latias is good, Mega Alt is very underwhelming, Mega Latios is horseshit. Nothing new there.
 


Just wanted to talk of how good is CM Stored Power Mega Latias. Don't have many replays, but this mon can stomp stall, because Stored Power beats Unaware Clef. If your opponent doesnt carry a fast/fat Dark type, it's GG.

Mega Lati is specially good when paired with Scarf Keldeo (revenge kills all relevant Dark types) and a Heal Bell user (I've been using Clef).

After just one Calm Mind boost you are able to beat mons like non-Fleur Cannon Magearna and Greninja.
 
There is still Chansey who can Toxic you. And since Stall has Mega Sab you would need coverage, some kind of Toxic antimeasure (Refresh?), Stored Power for Unware Clef, CM for Stored power and Roost so you can sweep.

Moveset: Refresh, CM, Roost, Stored Power, Thunderbolt.

As you can see it does not stomp Stall. Even if you remove Chansey form the game, there is still Dugtrio who can suicide Toxic.

Against double Defog Stall: There are too many Toxic users (Alomomola, Skarmory, Chansey, Dugtrio) so it is hard to sweep unless you use Refresh, CM, Stored Power, Roost.


If a mon can do it is this:

Sigilyph @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Roost
- Ice Beam
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top