Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v4

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Mega Aggron's biggest issue IMO is its movepool. It works well on regular Aggron because Rock Head and a Rock-type makes it a terrifying attacker in lower tiers thanks to a free Head Smash.

On Mega Aggron? You have a wall with an offensive movepool and almost no way to take advantage of a switch it may cause. No recovery, no utility (bar Stealth Rock and a nerfed Thunder Wave), nothing.

It's better to leave it on lower tiers so that it can go back to outclassing Mega Steelix on its roles.
 
mega aggron is mainly used because of its defensively capabilities combined with filter and good defensive typing in steel but even so its not used as much in ou because there are better defensive tanks like ferrothorn with can set spikes and has better synergy with mons in ou. also on an offensive note its movepool isnt horrid its not an good offensive mon period. In this metagame where mega sab is allowed mega aggron when its released will probably have barely a niche as an defensive tank on bulky teams and not stall.
 
One thing i dislike in the current metagame is that most matches are decided heavily by team matchup.
for example, one of the problems bulky teams have with stall is that most of their ways of dealing with it are trapped by duggy causing a 50/50 chance each turn. However a good player could play around this to an extent but still end up losing in the end. another example would be duggy-zard teams destroying stall and bulky teams and falling short versus ho.
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As of right now, mega med is stronger and more viable than all 3 of the new mons released. I feel that medicham just outclasses mega glade, with the extra speed made up for in raw power. High jump kick from that Mon does around 30% to physdef toxapex, so nothing feels like a safe switch in. With rocks up, mega medicham is one of the strongest threats in the meta, especially on a sticky web team. Mega coverage can be devastating to certain mons, such as scizor and the other 3 fighting types mentioned. Mega gardevoir gets a niche for that, but otherwise cannot stand ItS ground if outsped by mega medicham. Zen headbutt can 2HKO mega gardevoir after rocks depending on flinch, and high jump still deals loads of damage thanks to gardevoirs near nonexistent defense stat, leaving it 2HKOd by plenty of neutral hits from physical threats. Lopunny gets some niche because of PuP taking away the fake out moves lot, allowing for set up against mons that would normally switch such as ashgren or ferrothorn. Like many people have said and have experienced in practice, all 3 of the new released megas feel underwhelming. As mentioned in this thread, mega ballade isn't fast enough or nearly strong enough to sweep, as its coverage can be a bit lacking. Mega gardevoir also finds trouble, as physically it can take almost 0 hits and will die to lopunnys return depending on spikes and/or rocks. Mega galade feels the most viable, mainly because the SD punch set can break through a lot of switch ins, such as tangrowth with ice or close combat/drain punch. I'm very tired, so if any of this sounds abnormal please pardon me
 
you are right on most points on thing id like to add is what makes mega gallade have a better niche this gen is the mega buff and the ability to use sd and if mega gallade is used outside of this niche, mega medicham is better. what i am saying is mega medi and mega gardevoir are better pure wallbreakers while gallade-mega is a niche sweeper.
 

Gary

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The biggest niche that Gallade has over Medicham is Knock Off, which lets it bust through Mew/Reuniclues which are otherwise very difficult for Medicham to break through. While Medicham is better overall in other match ups just because of its raw power, Gallade's ability to reliably break through most bulky cores is what makes it such a pain in the ass to deal with, where Medi needs multiple hazards otherwise it will never break through Mew, and especially Reuniclus which can't be worn down.

I think Medi is better overall because of its higher damage output ability to run an extra coverage move due to it not needing to set up beforehand, but with Mew being so damn good, Gallade's ability to not be completely stopped cold by it is definitely a huge plus and makes it just as threatening overall. It's by no means outclassed.
 
yes knock off is definetely a good move to have for pokemon with the typing of gallade and medicham if mega gallade didnt have knock off it would be a worse mega medi but it does so yeah gallade and mega medicham do their roles different not really outclassing each other in anything particular. its really a player preference of a solid wallbreaker that has some hard stops or a solid sweeper with the ability to break past some more checks using its extra coverage.
 
Has anyone tried using celebi in OU? At first glance it looks a lot like a mix of two of the best blanket defensive checks out there right now: mew and tangrowth. Seems like defensive celebi should be decent, but am I overlooking something? I'm thinking a set of stealth rock/toxic/recover/giga drain might be decent. No defog or wil-o-wisp is a shame, though.
 
Has anyone tried using celebi in OU? At first glance it looks a lot like a mix of two of the best blanket defensive checks out there right now: mew and tangrowth. Seems like defensive celebi should be decent, but am I overlooking something? I'm thinking a set of stealth rock/toxic/recover/giga drain might be decent. No defog or wil-o-wisp is a shame, though.
Being weak to U-Turn, Knock Off, and Pursuit is really not good in this meta (Physical Koko is more common and it runs U-Turn, and BandTar is rising up in usage once more; Knock Off is basically on every team usually in the form of Tangrowth). Celebi also doesn't beat hazard removers like Skarmory (immune to Toxic) and SD Excadrill, some Zapdos, and Specs Latios. It also can't stop hazards from going up (Heatran, Ferro, Pex, etc.).

It's still a solid Keldeo answer, but I don't think a SR set is where Celebi's niche is.
 
One thing i dislike in the current metagame is that most matches are decided heavily by team matchup.
for example, one of the problems bulky teams have with stall is that most of their ways of dealing with it are trapped by duggy causing a 50/50 chance each turn. However a good player could play around this to an extent but still end up losing in the end. another example would be duggy-zard teams destroying stall and bulky teams and falling short versus ho.
I am strongly agree with you, the match up versus dugtrio when we use a bulkier team is terrible. And the level of skill dugtrio needs is pretty low, I have ever seen a teammate brings the eject button just to be sure to trap the target. It's impossible to always predict that.
 
The biggest niche that Gallade has over Medicham is Knock Off, which lets it bust through Mew/Reuniclues which are otherwise very difficult for Medicham to break through. While Medicham is better overall in other match ups just because of its raw power, Gallade's ability to reliably break through most bulky cores is what makes it such a pain in the ass to deal with, where Medi needs multiple hazards otherwise it will never break through Mew, and especially Reuniclus which can't be worn down.

I think Medi is better overall because of its higher damage output ability to run an extra coverage move due to it not needing to set up beforehand, but with Mew being so damn good, Gallade's ability to not be completely stopped cold by it is definitely a huge plus and makes it just as threatening overall. It's by no means outclassed.
Not that I disagree with you at all, I agree with most of your statements, but ballades niche against mew can't even be used sometimes due to will o wisp. Indeed gallade can force the mew out by threatening to revenge kill it, but physically defensive/utility mew doesn't get OHKO by gallades knock off at neutral, and mew will most likely will o wisp and pretty much elimanate gallade from the game. Gallade may be viable in lower rankings of OU, where mew isn't as prominent as in high ranks. Mega gallade also doesn't fair well against other common megas, such as scizor, as its u turn can do a chunk and mega banette, though very uncommon, can easily come in on a drain punch and force it out with will o wisp.

Side statement: Will there be a thread for mega gallade team building coming up?
 
Not that I disagree with you at all, I agree with most of your statements, but ballades niche against mew can't even be used sometimes due to will o wisp. Indeed gallade can force the mew out by threatening to revenge kill it, but physically defensive/utility mew doesn't get OHKO by gallades knock off at neutral, and mew will most likely will o wisp and pretty much elimanate gallade from the game. Gallade may be viable in lower rankings of OU, where mew isn't as prominent as in high ranks. Mega gallade also doesn't fair well against other common megas, such as scizor, as its u turn can do a chunk and mega banette, though very uncommon, can easily come in on a drain punch and force it out with will o wisp.

Side statement: Will there be a thread for mega gallade team building coming up?
Mew is a defensive threat, you beat it by not allowing it to switch in, not by switching into it safely.
 
Not that I disagree with you at all, I agree with most of your statements, but ballades niche against mew can't even be used sometimes due to will o wisp. Indeed gallade can force the mew out by threatening to revenge kill it, but physically defensive/utility mew doesn't get OHKO by gallades knock off at neutral, and mew will most likely will o wisp and pretty much elimanate gallade from the game. Gallade may be viable in lower rankings of OU, where mew isn't as prominent as in high ranks. Mega gallade also doesn't fair well against other common megas, such as scizor, as its u turn can do a chunk and mega banette, though very uncommon, can easily come in on a drain punch and force it out with will o wisp.

Side statement: Will there be a thread for mega gallade team building coming up?
No one in their right mind stays in with a +0 Gallade against a healthy Mew to click Knock Off unless it's within range of a knockout, so idrk what you're getting at here. Mega Scizor isn't a common mega whatsoever (it's bad rn) and idk why an irrelevant mega such as Banette's being mentioned, either. You're forgetting a lot of the positives that Mega Gallade has over Medi besides Knock Off, such as a better speed tier that lets it outrun Specs Keldeo, SD Garchomp, and Mega Charizard Y (medi has to speed tie with Zardy), a much safer Fighting STAB (Close Combat doesn't miss and take a bite out of your health, but at the cost of lowering your defenses. P.S, don't use Drain Punch for the love of all that is holy) and better bulk, mainly on the special side.
 
Being weak to U-Turn, Knock Off, and Pursuit is really not good in this meta (Physical Koko is more common and it runs U-Turn, and BandTar is rising up in usage once more; Knock Off is basically on every team usually in the form of Tangrowth). Celebi also doesn't beat hazard removers like Skarmory (immune to Toxic) and SD Excadrill, some Zapdos, and Specs Latios. It also can't stop hazards from going up (Heatran, Ferro, Pex, etc.).

It's still a solid Keldeo answer, but I don't think a SR set is where Celebi's niche is.
I would agree with all of that, except that mew has those exact same issues bar the 4x u turn weakness and it's one of the best mons in the tier. Fair points for the most part though, but I still find the idea of a ground-resistant mew to be pretty alluring.

God, I wish it got defog. Even if that doesn't make sense.
 
I am strongly agree with you, the match up versus dugtrio when we use a bulkier team is terrible. And the level of skill dugtrio needs is pretty low, I have ever seen a teammate brings the eject button just to be sure to trap the target. It's impossible to always predict that.
yea eject button into dug is extremely obnoxious.

the 'counterplay' is to hit the eject button mon with landot or someone who doesn't care about dug, but since you don't know it's there til you activate it, there's really no way to do this.
 
yeah there is really no real counterplay to eject button tactics because even if you try to play around it you still end up in a difficult situation. for example as stated above you could for the use of the eject button but this allows the opponent to gain momentum into whatever mon of their choice as duggy + eject button isnt just stall specific. This leads you in a unfavorable position.
 
Mega Lopunny is largely unusuable imo. Struggles heavily against pretty much all styles right now. It can't break stall, HO runs it over, and bulky offense usually has a mew or clef to wall it all day. I can't think of any sets that really do work with it atm as its first three attacks are staple and you even if you run ice punch, pup, encore or w/e I find it hard to get anything done against a decent team. The fact that about 5 super popular pokemon wall it really easily hurts it a lot. If you prep for megacham (which everyone already should be) you have a good mu against lopunny and lopunny doesn't have the raw power either. Everyone has a scarf as well so its rarely sweeping so if it can't punch holes either what exactly can it do?
 

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Mega Lopunny is largely unusuable imo. Struggles heavily against pretty much all styles right now. It can't break stall, HO runs it over, and bulky offense usually has a mew or clef to wall it all day. I can't think of any sets that really do work with it atm as its first three attacks are staple and you even if you run ice punch, pup, encore or w/e I find it hard to get anything done against a decent team. The fact that about 5 super popular pokemon wall it really easily hurts it a lot. If you prep for megacham (which everyone already should be) you have a good mu against lopunny and lopunny doesn't have the raw power either. Everyone has a scarf as well so its rarely sweeping so if it can't punch holes either what exactly can it do?
I find your reasoning to be flawed.

Last I checked Lopunny runs HO over way more than HO can hurt it. Mega Pinsir is honestly the only threat to Mega Lopunny that HO usually runs, while Lopunny's Fake Out into Return/HJK kills most of the HO mons. It laughs at Mimikyu, Smeargle, Bisharp, Alola Ninetales, etc. Mew and Clef both have to stay healthy in order to check Lop as Return is a 3HKO on both. Hazard stack + Lop is really good at wearing down its answers to the point they no longer become switch ins, and Heatran traps and beats pretty much all of Lop's answers 1v1. Lopunny is not meant to sweep, it is meant to be a fast revenge killer/late game cleaner. Also only Return and HJK are staples on it, Fake Out is no longer mandatory. Ice Punch, Power-Up Punch, Encore, Substitute, Copycat, and Healing Wish are all options it can run in the last two slots depending on your team.

I'm not sure where you're getting the notion that it's unusable. It's not as good as last gen obviously, but it's not garbage lol. That's why it's in B rank and not S.
 
What do you think about Z-Haze on Toxapex?

Toxapex @ Icium Z
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Recover
- Scald
- Toxic Spikes

Sometimes there are situations where you want to click Haze and Recover both at the same time - for example when you are low at health so that you can barely survive the opponent's attack but also want to remove the opponent's attack boosts with haze to stop the sweep. Z-Haze solves this problem once per match, as it fully restore Toxapex's HP before using Haze.
However, it also has some drawbacks, as Toxapex really likes Rocky Helmet chip damage, Black Sludge recovery and the ability to swtich out from opposing Dugtrios with a Shed Shell.
 
What do you think about Z-Haze on Toxapex?

Toxapex @ Icium Z
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Haze
- Recover
- Scald
- Toxic Spikes

Sometimes there are situations where you want to click Haze and Recover both at the same time - for example when you are low at health so that you can barely survive the opponent's attack but also want to remove the opponent's attack boosts with haze to stop the sweep. Z-Haze solves this problem once per match, as it fully restore Toxapex's HP before using Haze.
However, it also has some drawbacks, as Toxapex really likes Rocky Helmet chip damage, Black Sludge recovery and the ability to swtich out from opposing Dugtrios with a Shed Shell.
I guess its decent set if you don't have any better Z-Move user, but most of the time, I feel like Black Sludge, Shed Shell or even Eject Button would be more helpful. I don't play much with Toxapex, so I don't really know what to think, but I'm afraid this set is actually too situational...
 

Gary

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Honestly the only item I find even viable in this meta on Pex atm is Shed Shell (or Eject Button if paired with Duggy ofc). Like yea obviously it wants to run Black Sludge, but considering that Pex is literally one of the very few reliable switch-ins to Zard-Y in the meta but is trapped by Dugtrio, like idk why you wouldn't tbh. Obviously it has to be wary of Knock Off, but with Shed Shell your match up vs Duggy Zard-Y goes from being 100% shit to so much more consistent. Thanks to Pex's insane amount of recovery options via Recover and Regenerator, the extra passive recovery, while very nice, is obviously not a must like it is for Pokemon such as Heatran or Celesteela.

Like yeah it sucks that Shed Shell is pretty much worthless in every other match up that doesn't include a Duggy, but hey that's what happens when it's such a dominating force on commonly used playstyles atm, and with Zard-Y switch-ins being so hard to come by that aren't manipulated by T-tar/Duggy.
 
i agree the extra recovery from z haze isnt as need due to regen and recover and black sludge may seem appealing but from experience not getting trapped by duggy helps in the long run as stated above. some team have to run shed shell to not get 6-0ed by duggy zard. however if some teams have another switchin to zard that isnt trapped;(which is pretty rare), can allow pex to run black sludge but most of the time you just want shed shell as pex is the most solid check to duggy zard core ive seen so far other than chansey which is required to run eviolite.
 
i agree the extra recovery from z haze isnt as need due to regen and recover and black sludge may seem appealing but from experience not getting trapped by duggy helps in the long run as stated above. some team have to run shed shell to not get 6-0ed by duggy zard. however if some teams have another switchin to zard that isnt trapped;(which is pretty rare), can allow pex to run black sludge but most of the time you just want shed shell as pex is the most solid check to duggy zard core ive seen so far other than chansey which is required to run eviolite.
Chansey gets trapped by Dug too, dude. And Mantine exists
 
i forgot to mention that. also yes mantine is good answer but checks less than pex does and is weak to sr which cause it to be worn down over time. what i mean by this is that zard-y pressures it if its low enough and mantine is already pressured enough trying to keep rocks of and can get easily statused while toxapex doesnt usually care about burns and paras as it usually pivots on zard and switches out or sets up hazards. both are passive but depending on the moveset mantine is running it, can also be setup fodder unlike pex which usually runs haze.
 
Chansey gets trapped by Dug too, dude. And Mantine exists
You Toxic into Softboiled spam/Seismic Toss if it tries to Subtitute. It can't kill you in time, even with its own Toxic.

252+ Atk Dugtrio Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 357-420 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 198-234 (28.1 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Chansey Seismic Toss vs. 0 HP Dugtrio: 100-100 (47.3 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Hardly trapped unless you're near death already.
 
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