Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v3

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Ive been messing around with flyzium talonflame and sab and its actually surprisingly disgusting. Got up to around 1800s with it and the shit it can beat it nice. Z flame kind of dismantles stall by itself after a swords dance as toxapex takes like 90 from +2 z bb and if you run taunt clefable just sort of sits there and dies. After that pretty much any breaker just runs through the rest of the team. Its one of the few things that breaks stall that doesnt get immediately trapped by duggy after a kill. Even beyond the priority fly/fire stab is very good this gen. Hitting most of the S/A pokemons for neutral damage and ohko a lot of important threats.


Tldr; I think talonflame is actual still a threat, thoughts?
 
Nah it is not. Using Talonflame is just ASKING to get murdered by Zygarde, who can easily come in to shoot yet another totally broken Thouspam Arrows, that only two pokemon in the entire metagame, Tapu Bulu and Tangrowth can reliably take in.
 
Nah it is not. Using Talonflame is just ASKING to get murdered by Zygarde, who can easily come in to shoot yet another totally broken Thouspam Arrows, that only two pokemon in the entire metagame, Tapu Bulu and Tangrowth can reliably take in.
Zygarde isn't a talon switchin whatsoever. Obviously it hates will-o but more importantly
brave birds blow that thing back. if anything, zyg is good for talon as most teams need a decent ground resist so talon as ground immunity doesn't make u as weak to edgequake (like stone edge lando t) as it did last gen.
 

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Nah it is not. Using Talonflame is just ASKING to get murdered by Zygarde, who can easily come in to shoot yet another totally broken Thouspam Arrows, that only two pokemon in the entire metagame, Tapu Bulu and Tangrowth can reliably take in.
This is wrong on so many levels lol. Yeah Talon isn't the greatest pokemon but zyg is definitely not one of its flaws. Talon just SDs on the zyg switchin and nukes it, while tarrows fails to kill so it could even sd again and nab 2 guaranteed kills bar faster mons. Btw there are far more than 2 mons that take thousand arrows lol idk where you got your info from bud
 
Has no one discussed Shift Gear Magearna? Against offensively oriented teams this thing is an absolute beast with just a little bit of chip damage, and can either go bolt-beam+focus miss, or STAB + insert coverage move here.

hell, I've even seen Shuca Berry Mag (and used it) and found it's a pretty decent last ditch attempt, especially when checks have been removed/heavily weakened and Zygarde/Lando-T are still alive.
 
Has no one discussed Shift Gear Magearna? Against offensively oriented teams this thing is an absolute beast with just a little bit of chip damage, and can either go bolt-beam+focus miss, or STAB + insert coverage move here.

hell, I've even seen Shuca Berry Mag (and used it) and found it's a pretty decent last ditch attempt, especially when checks have been removed/heavily weakened and Zygarde/Lando-T are still alive.
I definitely think Shift Gear's a great set. I have some experience with using Shuca(really like it as a way to break open teams by eliminating one of their defensive backbones in Lando/Zygarde in the early game and/or start a snowball in the late game), but I happen to think that Z moves are probably the best way to go thanks to the extra power. But that's the best part about Magearna - it can be tailored to almost any team's needs.


I've also heard great things about Shift Gear + Calm Mind Magearna, although I'm unclear on its use. I think having three attacks is much better in more situations. Also, I would think that a decent player would not allow Magearna to nab both the SG and CM boosts(although I guess you could set up based on what you predict to come in). If someone could shine some light on the set and its uses, I would be grateful.
 
Honestly I think a lot of you are really underselling Talonflame. Yeah the loss of priority sucks, but 126 speed is still absolutely fantastic, not to mention Flare Blitz / Brave Bird coverage is wonderful, and as A-Wak proved fire types CAN be successful in OU with the right support. Not to mention it outspeeds Greninja that aren't carrying Water Shuriken (which doesn't matter if you're full health but is still worth noting), and can check (and some of these it can counter as well) Celesteela, Tangrowth, M-Hera , Jirachi, Kartana, Non-Scarfed Keldeo, Magearna, M-Maw, M-Venu, and Volarona.

Also to the poster above, why would anyone be switching Talonflame in on a Zygarde that isn't already weakened? People would more than likely be switching Zygarde INTO Talonflame if they've exhausted their defensive options.
 
Honestly I think a lot of you are really underselling Talonflame. Yeah the loss of priority sucks, but 126 speed is still absolutely fantastic, not to mention Flare Blitz / Brave Bird coverage is wonderful, and as A-Wak proved fire types CAN be successful in OU with the right support. Not to mention it outspeeds Greninja that aren't carrying Water Shuriken (which doesn't matter if you're full health but is still worth noting), and can check (and some of these it can counter as well) Celesteela, Tangrowth, M-Hera , Jirachi, Kartana, Non-Scarfed Keldeo, Magearna, M-Maw, M-Venu, and Volarona.
126 Speed is,indeed, "absolutely fantastic." You know what isn't? 81 Attack. Don't even mention Adamant since Talonflame still only hits 287 Attack and you're contradicting your own point about its Speed if you run Adamant. Alolan Marowak's success comes from its raw power, Ghost STAB, and useful abilities, and beyond a Fire typing it shares nothing with Talonflame, so why the hell are you comparing the two? You bring up Alolan Marowak and not Volcarona? Heatran, which destroys Talonflame? Mega Charizard Y, which actually does shares the same typing? If Speed is the only reason you're using Talonflame, why not bring the likes of a Tapu Koko - which, by the way, handles Talonflame quite nicely. You would also never switch Talonflame into a Greninja, unless you really did want to die.
Offensive Celesteela lives a Flare Blitz and OHKOs with Supersonic Skystrike.
Tangrowth itself is supposed to be a defensive blanket check and Talonflame is far from the only thing that beats it.
Mega Heracross wins if it predicts the switch with Rock Blast or Substitute - not hard, by the way. Oh, did I mention Close Combat kills Talonflame after Rocks? It does like 62% min.
Jirachi, again, is primarily a defensive Pokemon (that gets Stealth Rock) unless it's Scarf, and Talonflame can still lose to it.
Keldeo's best set is Choice Scarf.
Magearna has this nifty move named Thunderbolt.
Mega Mawile at worst 2HKOs Talonflame with literally any move bar Fire Fang.
Mega Venusaur still exists?
Volcarona beats Talonflame if it's already set up a Quiver Dance and Talonflame is not at full health; both Z-Fire Blast and Z-Psychic OHKO Talonflame.

Talonflame is a shaky answer to the mons you yourself listed, and let's not get started on its own checks and counters.
 
Not to mention the prevalence of defensive Landorus-T, which can eat up any Z-move Talonflame throws at it.

You mentioned Alolan-Marowak, but Alolan-Marowak offers defensive and support utility such as Stealth Rocks and negating most variants of Tapu Koko/Fast electrics. Not to mention Alo-wak can consistently hit it's switch ins much harder than Talonflame.
 
Zygarde isn't a talon switchin whatsoever. Obviously it hates will-o but more importantly
brave birds blow that thing back. if anything, zyg is good for talon as most teams need a decent ground resist so talon as ground immunity doesn't make u as weak to edgequake (like stone edge lando t) as it did last gen.
252+ Atk Gale Wings Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 135-159 (37.7 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 265-313 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO


The recoil alone gives a guaranteed 2HKO. And Extreme Speed takes out more than half of it's HP, add in how hard is this gen to remove SR, and you have essentially a dead weight on your team if you use TalonLame
The OU offensive set does not have WoW, unless you want to give up Taunt and become complete stall bait due to lacking space for Roost.
 

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252+ Atk Gale Wings Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 135-159 (37.7 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 265-313 (89.2 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO


The recoil alone gives a guaranteed 2HKO. And Extreme Speed takes out more than half of it's HP, add in how hard is this gen to remove SR, and you have essentially a dead weight on your team if you use TalonLame
The OU offensive set does not have WoW, unless you want to give up Taunt and become complete stall bait due to lacking space for Roost.
Okay, Zygarde is a rather mediocre check to Talonflame. Provided that Talonflame can get its Swords Dance off when Zygarde switches in Zygarde can only Extreme Speed to get Gale Wings out of the equation for its teammates:

+2 252+ Atk Gale Wings Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 421-496 (117.5 - 138.5%)

I'm not necessarily stating that Talonflame is very good in OU, though I would advise you not to use Zygarde as your line of reasoning as Zygarde isn't a very good check if Talonflame can safely get +2. Talonflame needing support and a rather specific team are better arguments against Talonflame than because of Zygarde's existence.
 
Why are we still talking Talonflame? I've seen almost zero, and I don't think a single team archived on here runs it. This is the metagame discussion, and Talonflame has absolutely zero impact on the metagame. Someone post replays of Talonflame running shit and I'll perk up my ears, but until then I think it's wasted conversation.

Shift Gear Magearna is really good, but I honestly prefer OTR because it offers more against bulkier teams while at the same time lets you punch 2-3 holes in any offensive team, which is an absolutely insane amount of value.

EDIT @below: show me replays that aren't just indicative of a team clearly unprepared for Talonflame. Yes, it got 3 kills; no, I am not convinced it has any effect on the meta at large. One replay is insufficient to show that.
 
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Why are we still talking Talonflame? I've seen almost zero, and I don't think a single team archived on here runs it. This is the metagame discussion, and Talonflame has absolutely zero impact on the metagame. Someone post replays of Talonflame running shit and I'll perk up my ears, but until then I think it's wasted conversation.

Shift Gear Magearna is really good, but I honestly prefer OTR because it offers more against bulkier teams while at the same time lets you punch 2-3 holes in any offensive team, which is an absolutely insane amount of value.
I'm a huge fan of OTR magearna! Although I find that it isn't a lot like shift gear. They are played very very differently for a number of reasons.

The Z move options are a lot more diverse. With the shift gear set, you very often see bolt beam + all out pummeling but I find that on the trick room set can run a whole lot more z moves - the raw power of Z-Fleur Cannon is absurd, (Twinkle tackle into flash cannon will kill AV tangrowth) while Z-Flash Cannon provides a nice way to hit things like lando, amongus and venu for nice damage. Z-thunderbolt takes care of stuff like celsteela, toxapex and even hurts something like tapu Fini which could be a pain. Additionally the added bulk is definitely noticeable. I find that it helps you better handle mons like tangrowth or tapu lele, but most importantly is that it beats other magearna. The corkscrew crash set in particular works really well against opposing magearna - ESPECIALY if they are the shift gear set that's very popular right now. It allows you to muscle past the opposing one, set up a trick room, and get the +1 from soul heart. Corkscrew crash does 99.7% MINIMUM, and the most that the opposing magearna could do to you is all out pummeling into focus blasting (which, assuming they land, you still live) and you can pick them off with a flash cannon, or set up a trick room and do so the following turn.

The trick room set is just something that ALWAYS puts in work. You can also use all our pummeling, but I didn't feel I need to go in depth as it's pretty well known how effective that set is, no one really talks about the merits of the other sets.
 
That's one thing that always puzzles me. Why using Magearna without Fleur Cannon nor Flash Cannon?
I get that the type is that good for taking hits, which I suppose is the reason to not use something else with the same coverage but that gets STAB on either the BoltBeam or Aura Sphere, but why go on without STAB moves? There are a big chunk of pokemon that are neutral at worst to (fighting types, sableye, opposing fairy type pokemon), and the loss of the STAB bonus takes a big toll on the damage output against these pokemon.
 
That's one thing that always puzzles me. Why using Magearna without Fleur Cannon nor Flash Cannon?
I get that the type is that good for taking hits, which I suppose is the reason to not use something else with the same coverage but that gets STAB on either the BoltBeam or Aura Sphere, but why go on without STAB moves? There are a big chunk of pokemon that are neutral at worst to (fighting types, sableye, opposing fairy type pokemon), and the loss of the STAB bonus takes a big toll on the damage output against these pokemon.
The ridiculous coverage of Focus Blast + Boltbeam is best on Shift Gear sets because it hits a huge portion of the tier super effectively, so you can sweep earlier in the game under the right circumstances. you're bulky enough to survive most hits so having the ability to 2hko almost everything is very valuable. Fight Z allows you to nab your Soul-Heart boost pretty consistently and it's as strong as STAB Flash Cannon anyway. Flash Cannon and Fleur Cannon are more prevalent on Trick Room sets that need to clean up those last few kills to close a match, since raw power will probably suffice in those situations and you don't want to waste Trick room turns
AV runs both stabs
 

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126 Speed is,indeed, "absolutely fantastic." You know what isn't? 81 Attack. Don't even mention Adamant since Talonflame still only hits 287 Attack and you're contradicting your own point about its Speed if you run Adamant. Alolan Marowak's success comes from its raw power, Ghost STAB, and useful abilities, and beyond a Fire typing it shares nothing with Talonflame, so why the hell are you comparing the two? You bring up Alolan Marowak and not Volcarona? Heatran, which destroys Talonflame? Mega Charizard Y, which actually does shares the same typing? If Speed is the only reason you're using Talonflame, why not bring the likes of a Tapu Koko - which, by the way, handles Talonflame quite nicely. You would also never switch Talonflame into a Greninja, unless you really did want to die.
Offensive Celesteela lives a Flare Blitz and OHKOs with Supersonic Skystrike.
Tangrowth itself is supposed to be a defensive blanket check and Talonflame is far from the only thing that beats it.
Mega Heracross wins if it predicts the switch with Rock Blast or Substitute - not hard, by the way. Oh, did I mention Close Combat kills Talonflame after Rocks? It does like 62% min.
Jirachi, again, is primarily a defensive Pokemon (that gets Stealth Rock) unless it's Scarf, and Talonflame can still lose to it.
Keldeo's best set is Choice Scarf.
Magearna has this nifty move named Thunderbolt.
Mega Mawile at worst 2HKOs Talonflame with literally any move bar Fire Fang.
Mega Venusaur still exists?
Volcarona beats Talonflame if it's already set up a Quiver Dance and Talonflame is not at full health; both Z-Fire Blast and Z-Psychic OHKO Talonflame.

Talonflame is a shaky answer to the mons you yourself listed, and let's not get started on its own checks and counters.
man i think you're thinking of talon as a more defensive mon here but that is absolutely not true. it's a completely offensively based mon that aims to break walls early game with SD+flyinium+gale wings for other things to clean up later. like would you switch an offensive lando into a magearna and call it bad when it got ice beamed on the switch? no because you don't switch in that kind of mon unless there's prediction involved.

Not to mention the prevalence of defensive Landorus-T, which can eat up any Z-move Talonflame throws at it.

You mentioned Alolan-Marowak, but Alolan-Marowak offers defensive and support utility such as Stealth Rocks and negating most variants of Tapu Koko/Fast electrics. Not to mention Alo-wak can consistently hit it's switch ins much harder than Talonflame.
+1 252 Atk Gale Wings Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 270-318 (70.6 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO this is what happens if people try to use lando as a talon answer. offensive lando sets just drop to skystrike.

wak and talon do completely different things lol. wak comes in and breaks stuff but doesn't do well against offense teams because of how everything revenge kills it unless trick room is up. talon offers less immediate power but it is much, much harder to revenge kill especially if gale wings is intact.

sun king asked for a replay so here's a dumb one i grabbed just now: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-592591432 there was some hax involved but the point i'm trying to get across is that once i set up sd with full hp, talon just automatically got two kills unless he sacked an important mon (magearna or ashgren, both of which had good matchups against my team). anyway hope i cleared up talon's place in the meta because it seems like there was a lot of theorymonning in that discussion
 
So...Magearna lookin' kinda clean in the meta right now. Anyone have an idea as to what kind of trend will surface to deal with this beast? Like, besides Chansey, what consistently switches into offensive Mag? Revenge killers also seem kinda shaky. Only adamant scarf Duggy and jolly Mega-Pert (in rain) can outspeed SG Mag (the "frailest" set) and ohko. Anything else will at best 2hko. And Mag will do mad damage (if no ohko straight up) in return.
 
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My favourite response for SG Magearna is Clefable. Seriously people, run Flash Cannon, the defensive fairies are real.
But if the opposing team is heavily damaged, then I willl go for Scizor, weaken Magearna as much as possible, and after getting her below 25%, let her sweep 2 or 3 of my own weakened mons, then send Ditto to absolutely murder my opponent.
 
Outside of Stall I'd say calm mind magic guard clef is the best answer given current trends which is quite ironic given its an offensive steel type. Easily beats the Boltbeam set (Seriously why dont people run fairy stab in Shift gear, this bothers me alot), Benefits from Trick room and with prediction can beat fairyium Z or Calm mind past the rare Flash cannon. That said clef as answer will only last until people reliase Steel stab is viable but for now feel free to induce that nostalgic pink rage.

As for more general response's not reliant on meta trends Mega Venusuar, your own Magerna and Mew are great as well. Venu absorbs everything outside +1 steelium and magerna with steel stab will beat those without it. Mew handidly beats the Bolteam and AV sets tho it can struggle with Trick room.
 
What are people's thoughts on Mega Slowbro?
I've been using this set on some BO builds:

Slowbro @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Def / 180 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Slack Off
- Toxic/Calm Mind/Ice Beam

I've found that on the mu's that CM would probably just flat out win, I have toxic/ice beam instead, and when I have CM, I happen to need a third attack (whether it be ice beam/fire blast) or toxic more. It's an interesting mon and I was wondering if anyone else has been testing out as of lately, and it really has good synergy and forms an annoying defensive backbone with Skarmory/Celesteela + Ground.
The issue I find with CM Mega Bro is the commonality of Ash Greninja and Tapu Koko. Just their presence alone deters setup, and that's not even getting into the issue of status moves pressuring Slowbro. This is coming from someone who has attempted building with it and playing others' teams with it. You are right that it can shred apart particular teams though.

I've heard that 3 attack(usually Scald/Fire Blast/Ice Beam) plus slack off is really the better application of Mega Slowbro right now, but I can't defend it because I've never used it. I can see why/how it would be a strong mon on paper though, given all the(deserved) love for 3 attack Zapdos.
 
It's a little unconventional, but I've had a lot of luck with a particular Kyurem-B set as of late

Kyurem-B @ Icium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Freeze Shock
- Fusion Bolt
- Dragon Claw
- Iron Head

Now I know what you're thinking, no Outrage, no Ice Beam? For this set I've found the additional coverage of Iron Head / reliability of Dragon Claw to be far better than locking myself into Outrage repeatedly (as it more often than not dooms me to be stuck into something that I can't afford to get stuck into). Also, while Ice Beam coming off of its very usable Special Attack is nice, I don't feel as though it does QUITE enough damage to justify it without running Life Orb. 170 Attack with an Adamant nature is seriously underestimated, and most people don't expect Kyu-B to actually run Iron Head, or even Fusion Bolt for that matter. Icium Z Freeze Shock still blows anything that doesn't resist it out of the water, and you've got Dragon Claw as reliable STAB.

Give this set a try, it more often than not really helps pull more weight than the rest of my team.
 
It's a little unconventional, but I've had a lot of luck with a particular Kyurem-B set as of late

Kyurem-B @ Icium Z
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Freeze Shock
- Fusion Bolt
- Dragon Claw
- Iron Head

Now I know what you're thinking, no Outrage, no Ice Beam? For this set I've found the additional coverage of Iron Head / reliability of Dragon Claw to be far better than locking myself into Outrage repeatedly (as it more often than not dooms me to be stuck into something that I can't afford to get stuck into). Also, while Ice Beam coming off of its very usable Special Attack is nice, I don't feel as though it does QUITE enough damage to justify it without running Life Orb. 170 Attack with an Adamant nature is seriously underestimated, and most people don't expect Kyu-B to actually run Iron Head, or even Fusion Bolt for that matter. Icium Z Freeze Shock still blows anything that doesn't resist it out of the water, and you've got Dragon Claw as reliable STAB.

Give this set a try, it more often than not really helps pull more weight than the rest of my team.
Do you have any replays on mid-high ladder (1600s+) or from tourney play?
 

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Do you have any replays on mid-high ladder (1600s+) or from tourney play?
There is this replay from Eternal Spirit's recent WCOP game which shows off the set well. It was hyped up very early on in the meta and kinda fell off from usage due to being generally easy to scout for, but it's certainly still a solid set to run in the meta nonetheless.

My problem is, what do you need Iron Head for at all? Z-Freeze Shock hits just about everything else you would need Iron Head for, and I would never give up having Ice Beam, as even without investment/a boosting item, Ice Beam along with Fusion Bolt is still great neutral coverage.

Subject 18 Edit: This is a WCOP replay not SPL
 
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There is this replay from Eternal Spirit's recent SPL game which shows off the set well. It was hyped up very early on in the meta and kinda fell off from usage due to being generally easy to scout for, but it's certainly still a solid set to run in the meta nonetheless.

My problem is, what do you need Iron Head for at all? Z-Freeze Shock hits just about everything else you would need Iron Head for, and I would never give up having Ice Beam, as even without investment/a boosting item, Ice Beam along with Fusion Bolt is still great neutral coverage.

Subject 18 Edit: This is a WCOP replay not SPL
Partially because that 30% flinch chance has come in handy at some of the best times (the minor reason why)
Mainly because my current team struggles with Faeries so I needed the additional attack (the main reason why)
 
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