Metagame Mega Evolution in Sun & Moon

Status
Not open for further replies.
Lopunny will be broken as fuck when it comes out. I don't even want to think about that thing not needing Fake Out.
Why it will be broken AF?

Priority+STAB is a great thing for Mega Lopunny, just like with Mega Medicham (without STAB, of course). Chip damage against frail things is nice.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 94-112 (32.9 - 39.2%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 238-282 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 78-93 (27.7 - 33%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 198-234 (70.4 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 117-138 (58.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 97-115 (31.1 - 36.9%) -- 76.6% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 246-289 (79 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 78-93 (29.8 - 35.6%) -- 25.1% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 196-232 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Considering these calcs, Fake Out will be almost a "must-have" on Mega Lopunny
 
Last edited:
Why it will be broken AF?
Yeah, I'm not sure it will be to such an extent, but I can see Lopunny running something like Power-Up Punch/Return/HJK/Ice Punch or Baton Pass (or even Healing Wish if it's of no use anymore).

Toxapex is not a nice thing to come across, though.
 
It's important to note that the tyranitarite, abomasite and manectite won't come out until like june 7th or something. The steelixite and pidgeotite code is likely to be released in the coming days though, and just like how the beedrillite and mawilite code tossed in medichamite and audinite it's likely that we'll get two more new megastones to accompany them. If loppunite is one of them the mega tyranitar viability dream will be dead before it began.
 

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
I don't really see where all the hate for Mega Manectric is coming from. Well, I guess I do actually, it was pretty overrated in ORAS when T-tar was basically on every team and sand offense with Driller was a lot more common, but looking at the current meta trends going on atm, it seems like it would be really annoying to deal with. The biggest thing about Koko is that it has to either be indefinitely walled by Ferrothorn and or drop HP Ice, which makes Lando-T annoying as fuck for it. Manectric doesn't have to worry about either of those things, and it takes full advantage of the fat grasses that are running around to keep Koko in check. It also outspeeds Ash Gren, which is pretty significant considering Koko fails to do so and becomes pretty vulnerable to it late-game.

Biggest issue is that Manec is a Mega and we all know how that goes, and T-tar has been seeing a slight surge in relevance which I can only see going up more and more if Manec comes back in the tier. So I think Manec will probably suffer the same fate it had last gen; decently relevant at the beginning of the gen, but loss in prominence as the meta stabilizes and meta starts shifting away from it. Who knows what could happen, but I don't see Manec "blowing chunks" for the first few months.
 

njnp

We don't play this game to lose.
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
If Zapdos's popularity is any indicator, I think Mega Manectric will be better this gen than it was in ORAS. The decline of SDef Tran and Ttar in general helps its viability a ton, as does people's relying on Tangrowth and Ferrothorn as electric checks (which, again, is one reason Zapdos is so good). I'm not going to write off Mega Manectric that easily. I'm also curious to see Mega Ttar in action, since the biggest reason it wasn't very good last gen was Mega Lopunny.
Zapdos popularity should not have a correlation with mega manectric for many reasons.

Mega Manectric wastes a mega slot and will be id say pretty underwhelming especially considering the fact that mega swampert rain will be a big thing soon. The only thing that would make you wanna use mega mane over lets say koko is access to a stronger fire move then hp fire and outspeeding ash ninja other then that there is no point.

Zapdos has flying typing so it does not get effected by spikes or t spikes which has many different users this gen. It also has access to roost,defog, and the ability pressure helping its longevity. Manectric will quickly get weaken in this meta and do very little. Along with zapdos has much better bulk then manectric. Manectric depends on intimidate to check certain mons.

Manectric was pretty ok last gen and mainly because it really put in nice work vs offenses but now that offense other then webs has very little viability because of mons such as koko,ninja,and lele. I feel manectric losses some of its clout.

Manectric may cause people to stop begging for a protean ninja suspect I don't think it will make much of an impact other than that.

Lopunny will be broken as fuck when it comes out. I don't even want to think about that thing not needing Fake Out.
I also think this statement is false. I don't think lop will be broken at all. It wasn't broken last gen and I think it will a nice addition to the meta. There are new counter additions in buzzwole,toxapex, and pyukumuku if you wanna stretch. There is also the fact the metagame is more defensive then in oras which lop will not enjoy. HJK 50/50's with celesteela will not be a joy. There is also the fact it will be forced to run jolly 100% and the adamant lop phase in oras will seize to exist. This mon from face value and how the meta looks atm will be underwhelming and not as good as it was in oras.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
I was about to say... Fake Out had FAR more applications then just 'Turn 1 mega', ranging from:
  • Toxic Stalling various threats (Toxic Cress/Duggy will make excellent partners IMO)
  • Chip Damage
  • General Priority, and possible mindgames around it.
And a lot more. I'm looking forward to seeing Loppuny back in the meta, ngl.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I also think this statement is false. I don't think lop will be broken at all. It wasn't broken last gen and I think it will a nice addition to the meta. There are new counter additions in buzzwole,toxapex, and pyukumuku if you wanna stretch. There is also the fact the metagame is more defensive then in oras which lop will not enjoy. HJK 50/50's with celesteela will not be a joy. There is also the fact it will be forced to run jolly 100% and the adamant lop phase in oras will seize to exist. This mon from face value and how the meta looks atm will be underwhelming and not as good as it was in oras.
I disagree with this. With PuP, you beat Tox because it can't Recover, Haze, and Scald you all at once, so the only chance it has of winning is getting the burn on you. Not to mention ENcore can PP stall you out of Recovers or force a switch. Celesteela 50/50s are just that...50/50s, so I think that's a pretty poor example of something that can beat Lopunny. Buzzwole takes about 50 from rocks + Return so that's a terrible check. I also do not think the Metagame is more defensive now than it was in ORAS. Offensive spikes-based teams are more popular than ever and Lopunny would fit right in with those teams, but also poses a huge threat to them. The ability to carry an additional move over Fake Out if you want makes Lopunny even more threatening now than it was back then (its better than Metagross in ORAS for sure, and look how broken Metagross is now).

I was about to say... Fake Out had FAR more applications then just 'Turn 1 mega', ranging from:
  • Toxic Stalling various threats (Toxic Cress/Duggy will make excellent partners IMO)
  • Chip Damage
  • General Priority, and possible mindgames around it.
And a lot more. I'm looking forward to seeing Loppuny back in the meta, ngl.
Fake Out is not a terrible option, but it's not needed at all anymore, especially with Talonflame gone. That gives you the opportunity to run Power Up Punch, Encore, Sub, or Baton Pass without having to worry about how you're going to Mega Evolve safely.


I will eat my hat if Lopunny isn't broken.
 

njnp

We don't play this game to lose.
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I disagree with this. With PuP, you beat Tox because it can't Recover, Haze, and Scald you all at once, so the only chance it has of winning is getting the burn on you. Not to mention ENcore can PP stall you out of Recovers or force a switch. Celesteela 50/50s are just that...50/50s, so I think that's a pretty poor example of something that can beat Lopunny. Buzzwole takes about 50 from rocks + Return so that's a terrible check. I also do not think the Metagame is more defensive now than it was in ORAS. Offensive spikes-based teams are more popular than ever and Lopunny would fit right in with those teams, but also poses a huge threat to them. The ability to carry an additional move over Fake Out if you want makes Lopunny even more threatening now than it was back then (its better than Metagross in ORAS for sure, and look how broken Metagross is now).
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 130-154 (32 - 37.9%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery? (You can just roost this damage off as well.)

The pup on toxapex is fair that doesnt't change the fact theres still measures like rh tang,slowbro,clef and etc.

Yea celesteela 50/50 isn't the best example but I'm just giving an example of how it won't be an easy ou run for lop as it was last gen.

I think you can definitely make a case gross is better then lop in oras. I certainly would.

Me and ABR discussed this and lop really will not most likely be a threat and we would find it surprising otherwise.

The metagame is most definitely more defensive in sumo then in oras. You can use smog tour oras usage stats as an example of that and see the balance and stall usage in sumo exceeds what it was once upon a time in oras.
 
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 204 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 130-154 (32 - 37.9%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery? (You can just roost this damage off as well.)

The pup on toxapex is fair that doesnt't change the fact theres still measures like rh tang,slowbro,clef and etc.

Yea celesteela 50/50 isn't the best example but I'm just giving an example of how it won't be an easy ou run for lop as it was last gen.

I think you can definitely make a case gross is better then lop in oras. I certainly would.

Me and ABR discussed this and lop really will not most likely be a threat and we would find it surprising otherwise.

The metagame is most definitely more defensive in sumo then in oras. You can use smog tour oras usage stats as an example of that and see the balance and stall usage in sumo exceeds what it was once upon a time in oras.
How do you view team archetypes in usage stats? Or do you just mean see which mons/sets are getting usage and connect the dots?

tho I just wanted to say "lop really will not most likely be a threat" sounds... diminutive to say the least.

It's gonna be the fastest thing in the tier besides megazam (why is mbee still in the tier remove this trash plz), and I think we all remember how much of a bitch it is to switch into. Toxapex is a fantastic new counter, but it's passive af and most ppl don't want to have to run it outside of stall or super bulky squads.
The fact that it isn't required to run fake out anymore opens up plenty of options. It'll be the premier RKiller of koko and both forms of ninja. Tbh i'm hoping/expecting cool shit w PuP/encore to be a thing.

Actually looking at some damage calcs, I may agree w the poster on the previous page, fake out does put a ton of stuff into KO range of return.
 
Zapdos popularity should not have a correlation with mega manectric for many reasons.

Mega Manectric wastes a mega slot and will be id say pretty underwhelming especially considering the fact that mega swampert rain will be a big thing soon. The only thing that would make you wanna use mega mane over lets say koko is access to a stronger fire move then hp fire and outspeeding ash ninja other then that there is no point.

Zapdos has flying typing so it does not get effected by spikes or t spikes which has many different users this gen. It also has access to roost,defog, and the ability pressure helping its longevity. Manectric will quickly get weaken in this meta and do very little. Along with zapdos has much better bulk then manectric. Manectric depends on intimidate to check certain mons.

Manectric was pretty ok last gen and mainly because it really put in nice work vs offenses but now that offense other then webs has very little viability because of mons such as koko,ninja,and lele. I feel manectric losses some of its clout.

Manectric may cause people to stop begging for a protean ninja suspect I don't think it will make much of an impact other than that.
I don't think judging Mega Manectric on the basis of one rather niche archetype featuring one unreleased mega is a sound way to measure its viability. The reason people would want to use Manectric over Koko is that it has access to the same fantastic Electric/Fire/Ice Coverage that Zapdos has (more on that later), while Koko has to choose between fire or ice (and have both being significantly weaker than either of Manectric's coverage moves). Also, the increased speed tier is fucking huge because it outspeeds Ash Gren (unlike Koko), and since it's not OHKO by Water Shuriken, it wins that match up.

Zapdos has flying type so it does get affected by Stealth rock significantly more, which evens out its immunity to spikes. And it's not like toxic spikes are particularly common, since the only common user of them is toxapex, which runs toxic just as often. Anyway, the reason the person you responded to compared Manectric to Zapdos wasn't because of their bulk or their typing (Manectric isn't going to be used to defensively check anything lmao), it's because of the aforementioned Electric/Fire/Ice Coverage that has made Zapdos such a significant threat this gen.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that offense is bad, because it really isn't.
 
I think most of you are underselling Manectric tbh. Getting overheat is a HUGE deal this generation, what with it be such an important type offensively. Additionally, I can't wait to see what it's electric terrain boosted attacks to to common threats.

I'm obviously just theorymonning at this point, but I think it's going to be great. Somewhere in the B ranks sounds right since it does probably need to be partnered with Koko.
 

njnp

We don't play this game to lose.
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
I don't think judging Mega Manectric on the basis of one rather niche archetype featuring one unreleased mega is a sound way to measure its viability. The reason people would want to use Manectric over Koko is that it has access to the same fantastic Electric/Fire/Ice Coverage that Zapdos has (more on that later), while Koko has to choose between fire or ice (and have both being significantly weaker than either of Manectric's coverage moves). Also, the increased speed tier is fucking huge because it outspeeds Ash Gren (unlike Koko), and since it's not OHKO by Water Shuriken, it wins that match up.

Zapdos has flying type so it does get affected by Stealth rock significantly more, which evens out its immunity to spikes. And it's not like toxic spikes are particularly common, since the only common user of them is toxapex, which runs toxic just as often. Anyway, the reason the person you responded to compared Manectric to Zapdos wasn't because of their bulk or their typing (Manectric isn't going to be used to defensively check anything lmao), it's because of the aforementioned Electric/Fire/Ice Coverage that has made Zapdos such a significant threat this gen.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that offense is bad, because it really isn't.
Offense is bad you can tell by the tour stats and popular teams that are being used currently. The best arch types currently are BO (bulky offense),balance,stall, and "webs".

The only consistent and good offense in the metagame is webs because it can slow down all the threats towards offense and has the right tools to take advantage of webs on the field. Toxic spikes are common and because of toxapex usage and even nihilego you should when approaching a build have a toxic spike absorber or a defogger or you most likely be weak to them. The fuckin speed tier is not that huge because you only cover one mon in particular which is ash ninja which you can just add a counter measure for that mon or reliable switch in. I do think your right maybe its rash to think mega swampert(released this week) will make manectric unviable but there's are alot more aspects. I just think its addition to the metagame and most good players/colleagues ive talked to feels manectric will be underwhelimg. I also wanna added most ash ninja teams that are currently relevant (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sm-ou-sample-teams.3598705/) also some others are not particularly mega manectric weak.

In closing, I just feel like there will be little reason to waste a mega slot of manectric when there are better and stronger options overall in koko and zapdos.

How do you view team archetypes in usage stats? Or do you just mean see which mons/sets are getting usage and connect the dots?

tho I just wanted to say "lop really will not most likely be a threat" sounds... diminutive to say the least.

It's gonna be the fastest thing in the tier besides megazam (why is mbee still in the tier remove this trash plz), and I think we all remember how much of a bitch it is to switch into. Toxapex is a fantastic new counter, but it's passive af and most ppl don't want to have to run it outside of stall or super bulky squads.
The fact that it isn't required to run fake out anymore opens up plenty of options. It'll be the premier RKiller of koko and both forms of ninja. Tbh i'm hoping/expecting cool shit w PuP/encore to be a thing.

Actually looking at some damage calcs, I may agree w the poster on the previous page, fake out does put a ton of stuff into KO range of return.
I generally study and yes connect the dots follow the tour scene and ladder scene. I pride myself on staying at the top of the building and playing in the metagame and wanna keep track of what is trending. Watching tour replays and keeping track of smogon tour is great way to understand what is trending in the metagame. For Example....

Last Weeks smogon tour featured constantly..

Stall
Baton Pass
Zapdos Balances
Dugtrio
and so on...

Those were the most consistent things that were being used and things that are currently running the metagame.

If you go on ladder...

Stall
Webs
Baton Pass
Dugtrio
and so on....
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't have much of an opinion on whether Mega Manectric will be better in SM than ORAS, but something pretty relevant that I haven't seen mentioned yet is Alolan Marowak.

Assuming Lightningrod, Wak is immune to Thunderbolt and Volt Switch and also resists HP Ice and Flamethrower. Unless people try to run HP Ground, Marowak will counter Mega Mane easily. It dislikes switching into rocks but Mane can't wear it down much.

Koko can at least pivot out with U-Turn but trying to Volt Switch with Mane just kills all momentum, and if Wak comes in safely, chances are it's going to get a heavy hit off.
 
Non mega Ttar is already very underwhelming, I doubt Mega Ttar will be any better.
Actually, non mega ttar isn't what you call "underwhelming." It's just a lot less common this generation mainly because of the common presence of fairy types, particularly the tapus. As of lately, ttar has been responding to metagame trends quite well. You may think that the omnipresence of meg medicham hurts it, but with that becoming increasingly common, pokemon like zapdos, bulky mew, reuniclus and slowbro(mega) are seeing increased usage as well, all of which it can check(it has to watch out for wisp from mew tho). In addition to that, the fact that most volcarona don't opt for bug buzz means good news for it too, and ttar has valuable utility in pursuit trapping threats such as gengar, lele, alolan marowak, and Nihilego, which is very notable due to the lack of pursuit trappers in the metagame. As mentioned earlier, mega ttar was underwhelming last gen mainly due to the presence of mega lopunny, but if tht is out of the picture temporarily, mega ttar could see some potent use. Of course, it won't be an a rank threat, but it will definitely be something to watch out for because it can outspeed what it needs to at +1(though it barely misses out on ash greninja).
 
So how will Megasnow perform this gen in RU ? Still where it was in ORAS or better ?
I honestly can't say. I have no experience in RU to give much of an opinion. The changes to Mega Evolution and Speed kinda indirectly nerfs it, starting off at an abysmal 30 base speed. The only thing I could think of is maybe some Megasnow + A-Slash shenanigans, but that double 4x weakness to Fire is concerning. Or TR, but I don't believe that will be too viable. Then again, I am kinda theorymonning, so my opinion isn't to be taken too seriously, but i'd just wait to see what impact it has on the meta.
 
So how will Megasnow perform this gen in RU ? Still where it was in ORAS or better ?
I think it will be on a similar level as it was last generation. The swords dance set will pose a particular threat, as priority ice shard can revenge kill faster threat she such as swellow, kommo-o, and roserade, while the mixed set will never very difficult to switch into due to the fact that traditional ice type checks such as mantine, slow(bro or king) and registeel get hammered by wood hammer and focus blast respectively. Even cresselia has a hard time with it, as the hail heavily hinders it's only form of recovery, and the sd set can overwhelm it. Bronzong is probably the best answer out there, but even it risks getting 2HKOD by a +2 adamant wood hammer after hail and rocks damage.
 
mega ttar was too slow to abuse DD last gen and SM OU makes this flaw even more pronounced. seeing as how that's the only thing it does better than regular ttar i can't imagine any scenario in which mega ttar is good in OU.

mega abomasnow's niche on hail teams (which aren't viable most of the time) is completely overriden by alolan ninetales; its only role now is a bulky attacker (with a horrendous defensive typing unfortunately) and this would only work in lower tiers.

neither of the two will have an actual impact on the meta, except around 1000 ELO, perhaps.
 
mega abomasnow's niche on hail teams (which aren't viable most of the time) is completely overriden by alolan ninetales; its only role now is a bulky attacker (with a horrendous defensive typing unfortunately) and this would only work in lower tiers.
The above conversation considering mega abomasnow was considering its roles in RU. Alolan Ninetales is completely irrelevant.
 
The above conversation considering mega abomasnow was considering its roles in RU. Alolan Ninetales is completely irrelevant.
Given that this is an OU thread, he was probably talking about OU, as he should be.

I still think Mega TTar could have a niche. The only things holding it back are its defensive typing and low speed. Besides those, it has colossal mixed bulk and a huge attack stat to work with. Hell, it could probably work on Webs teams.
 
mega ttar was too slow to abuse DD last gen and SM OU makes this flaw even more pronounced. seeing as how that's the only thing it does better than regular ttar i can't imagine any scenario in which mega ttar is good in OU.

mega abomasnow's niche on hail teams (which aren't viable most of the time) is completely overriden by alolan ninetales; its only role now is a bulky attacker (with a horrendous defensive typing unfortunately) and this would only work in lower tiers.

neither of the two will have an actual impact on the meta, except around 1000 ELO, perhaps.
Mega Abomasnow also has use as a TR attacker given its low speed, high mixed attacking stats, high attack STABs like Blizzard and Wood Hammer, good coverage, priority and a handy water and ground resist which a lot of TR teams need.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top