Metagame Inheritance

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Growth
- Earthquake
- Flame Charge
- Rock Slide/Iron Head

Inheriting from Numel. Growth for boosting Atk (SpAtk is pretty much irrelevant, so you could possibly use Howl instead). Flame Charge to boost Speed. EQ for STAB. Rock Slide/Iron Head for coverage.
I think you're better off with EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe, Adamant Nature. That way you're more powerful and very slightly more bulky, and the reduction in speed shouldn't be relevant since you'll still outspeed everything (including Pheromosa, Scarf Archeops, and Shell Smash Heatran) after a Flame Charge. Also, this set works best if you have a partner with Drought so that Growth can get you to +4 Atk (and Drought also conveniently makes Flame Charge stronger and neutralizes your Water weakness).
 
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Simple
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Growth
- Earthquake
- Flame Charge
- Rock Slide/Iron Head

Inheriting from Numel. Growth for boosting Atk (SpAtk is pretty much irrelevant, so you could possibly use Howl instead). Flame Charge to boost Speed. EQ for STAB. Rock Slide/Iron Head for coverage.
This set'll serve you better.

Carracosta (Landorus-Therian) @ White Herb
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Shell Smash
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Focus Blast

Shell Smash has the benefits of Simple Growth + Simple Flame Charge, in one move. Sturdy makes up for the lack of Sash. It gets EdgeQuake, and +2 Focus Blast will chunk (most? some?) levitating Steel-types at least. But ideally you should just KO those first.

This doesn't have Sash or Sturdy, but is another option if you want a Flying STAB.

Minior (Landorus-Therian) @ White Herb
Ability: Shields Down
EVs: 12 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Earthquake
- Acrobatics
- Stone Edge / Substitute
 

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
Since no one here seems to want to say anything about it, I suppose I'll have to; Inheritance needs to change

In all my time of lingering around in the om room with "Inheritance" and "inh" set to highlight me, I've gotten a feel for the things people talk about most; usually people either suggesting some kind of less than ideal set that they think is good or people being confused about what Inheritance is or why the teambuilder is saying their sets are illegal PLEASE FIX THIS .
But when actual discussion about the meta itself opened up, the usual trend was that it was about these three things:

1: The functionality of the meta.
The meta is definitely not finished yet, proven by people being able to hide their donor tags by being locked, and the crummy teambuilder validator. While these two things may be the only parts that I know of that may be literally broken in Inheritance, they're talked about in the chat enough to hopefully warrant someone to fix it. In regards to the teambuilder, didn't we have code that worked perfectly last gen? Like, it showed the details of what was wrong with your set, rather than just saying "so and so is illegal"

The meta being broken is something that gets brought up very frequently, by both people that are playing and those that are just teambuilding. Usually within the first three days a meta gets the fixing it needs, but now we're sitting in the middle of week 3 and it still isn't working perfectly.

2: Pheromosa as an inheritor/Kecleon as a donor.
Pheromosa alone has become a meta-defining threat, becoming the most common anything in Inheritance, above Xatu as a donor, and Unaware as an ability. Now of course, being common isn't usually warrant for being banned (kinda), but unlike most common things that have been considered for bans/suspects, Pheromosa is actually versatile, having a multitude of sets that it can use to perform well, Kecleon being the most notable, of course.
Speaking of Kecleon, why is this even allowed as a donor? I think I speak for everyone when I say that anything with actually viable stats that got this ability + movepool would be Uber/AG easily, yet we can't inherit from things like Zekrom because [insert weak reason here].

Discussion for specifically Pheromosa isn't the most common thing in the world, but on the occasions that it does happen, the usual consensus is that it is too good, with little to no reasoning from the defense as to why it shouldn't be banned.

3: Inheriting from Ubers.
This is a topic that has been brought up time and time again, and the only two reasons the defense has ever been able to give is that Ubers would be too good for the meta, and that it would make the meta less consistent.
Now, if you try to look into the logic of those two reasons, you'd realize that there are only a handful of Uber mons that would be too good as donors, namely Kyogre, Rayquaza (debatable), Blaziken, Arceus (also debatable), and Xerneas (debatable and only good on Lele and Magearna). If these things prove to be too good for the meta, then we can just ban them from being donors individually like we did last gen, rather than sentencing about 20 other donors to being banned just because 5 or less donors were too good.
As for how it would make the meta "less consistent", really? Would it not be more consistent to have a meta where you can inherit from any pokemon except the few with broken sets as opposed to you can inherit from any pokemon except the few with broken sets + Ubers.

This topic has had the playerbase torn pretty evenly, though most people that defend Ubers being banned as donors seem to think that if Ubers were unbanned as donors, that they'd ALL be unbanned, or that we'd actually get to use the Uber mons themselves, which is absolutely not the case for either.

This has been the three most prominent points of discussion in current Inheritance with my own insight as well as a majority of the OM community's presence on Showdown.

Tagging The Immortal so we can hopefully get answers and (possibly) solutions. And hopefully give us an active leader
 
1. What's wrong with the validator? Please provide examples. Tagging Slayer95 to hopefully see if he can fix the locked issue soon.

2. Since scpinion is not present at the moment, I'll step in if anything needs to be suspected/banned. There needs to be some community input on the matter though. I don't see people shouting for anything to be banned.

3. I already spoke about this. If something is banned then you can't inherit from it. This isn't a topic for discussion as its related to the ban policy taken by the host. You seem to be uninformed though as broken Pokemon and Ubers are the same thing. They are not a different set of Pokemon. Shedinja, for example, is Uber in this OM, just like Arceus or anything else. If you feel any Uber should be unbanned, you can discuss that.
 

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
The validator is only saying that a set is just illegal, vs providing details as to WHY the set is illegal like OU's validator.

Most of Inheritance's playerbase is on just Showdown vs Smogon, hence why discussion here has been lacking.

OMs do not have policies based on tiers like this, why do you think Slaking and Regigigas are banned in a majority of OMs? Because they're outliers that are too good for them, with this case being the same but backwards, where the Uber donors are NOT good enough to banned. But if you want to drop the hammer on this one like with reveals and make it so we can't discuss it, then I shan't continue. And unbanning Ubers as mons holds no relation to unbanning them as donors, but that holds no relevance to this particular topic, so I won't elaborate further.
 
Pheromosa is a problem no matter who it's inheriting from. Kecleon is a little overblown, it's only a good kit, not a great one (Pheromosa makes it look so problematic because of its native speed and power), and it's lacking the high BP moves that truly make Pheromosa impossible to wall. You get one Knock Off to chunk Cress for around 40%, and then you're walled. Meanwhile, sets that give Pheromosa big explosiveness like Heracross are still unexplored. Seriously, give it any kit with Megahorn and you will see just how hard it is to wall. Suspect/ban Pheromosa (it's 100% quickbannable, it's the best thing in the metagame by a wide margin and it's choking the life out of Offense), and the Kecleon problem will solve itself.

I've gone on the record that a Pokemon should be legal or illegal as a whole. Maybe MAYBE make exceptions for non-inherited sets (Scolipede as-is would be legal, but not Heracross-Scolipede, for an example), but a Pokemon should not be allowed to donate if it cannot inherit, and vice versa. Zekrom is a poor example because so few Pokemon would even want its movepool (it's basically completely outclassed by Golem) but if you brought down Zekrom as a fully legal Pokemon, it would probably be hilariously broken even if it COULDN'T inherit. There is definitely power creep in Inheritance to normalize dropping Ubers, but it should be done on a case-by-case basis in the first place and they need to be dropped as a whole, not just dropping a bunch of Ubers kits and seeing how that goes.
 
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I dont really have so much problem to a single mon in the current meta, but i feel that stuff like specifically Kartana and Hoopa-U are my specific pick and some offensive biz must be thought of having a suspect.

Kartana and Hoopa-U

Kartana sports 181 Atk and sits at a decent speed tier, and Dhelmise is one of the most horrific donors to it. It was one of the earliest aformentioned sets, but Dhelmise as a donor is very terrifying, especially, as mentioned, gets a STAB anchor shot+steel worker. ANd hey, it gets SD if you need to score more koes. Most bulky water types that try resisting Anchor shot get bopped by Power whip as well. Fire types? It gets EQ. Probs the only check to this thing when it's on the roll is literally just offensive mons which are faster than it. PLus, there's not much priority present in this meta with the exception of e-speed, where lots of random nerds spam in the ladder. Oh, one more thing. Jirachi is also a nice donor, especially you have hard hitting iron heads and will make your opponent a sitting duck until they faint if your lucky. Also can be used as a pivot as well due to its access to uturn, not mentioning Kartana has a cool defensive typing. Only reason i dont lose to this is probs i use Utility doublade, which also is an excellent counter to Pinsir-Mega and like all physical sweepers, with the exception to thousand arrows donated stuff.

Probs the only reason this thing doesnt seem the most broken stuff is because offense is the most used playstyle, which makes this meta very bland. I see a few stall teams, but pretty sure Kartana devours even just a slightly whittled one whole. I dont know but i think im the only one who uses a balanced team that slightly leans on a more defensive archetype, and actually goes well with the current meta, until i have faced this earlier.

s/o to the guy whoever you are (Im not taking any credit to this set), Hoopa-U with tinted lens, getting the donation from Sigilyph. No idea what was the spread or whatever, but it 2HKOes my Muk-alola with dark pulse, which has 252 spd and careful, to hard counter psychic types. I mean im not sure but i could only think of chansey to stop a specs set of this. In addition, Webs is not a bad playstyle, and i have seen some, and choice scarf is always a decent option for not so speedy stuff like Hoopa-U. I have seen other things like Mixed, which also crushes fully defensive archetype which comes from kecleon and the like. Hoopa-U, like Kartana, just falls from offensive playstyles.

Other Things

Talk about offense being a hit, lots of dumb HO in the ladder is very effective due to the ease of access on shell smash. There are a number of stuff that could run unaware, but could never check all these smashers at once and mostly drops to SS Tran. In example, SS Tran is only one of the numerous annoying smash sweepers that shred through a lot of stuff, notably the most common unaware users under sun, and only gets beat by flash fire users which resists ground and grass, and swampert inheriting from miltank which is one of the rare hard generic checks. Other strong notable smashers are with likes of Megagross, Nihilego, and Gyarados mega too which slips past through unaware walls through Mold breaker, although is very much susceptible to espeeders. All in all, these things need specific checks, which is very very hard to do since defensive archetypes hardly thrives in the meta filled with powerful wallbreakers. Basically you just need to pick your poison, which actually sucks. I could actually go in the ladder and Bring 3 smashers, a rocker, and 2 Cleaners and I could possibly reach the high ladder, simply just by putting shell smash to anything i like.

Pheromosa is a problem no matter who it's inheriting from. Kecleon is a little overblown, it's only a good kit, not a great one (Pheromosa makes it look so problematic because of its native speed and power), and it's lacking the high BP moves that truly make Pheromosa impossible to wall. You get one Knock Off to chunk Cress for around 40%, and then you're walled. Meanwhile, sets that give Pheromosa big explosiveness like Heracross are still unexplored. Seriously, give it any kit with Megahorn and you will see just how hard it is to wall. Suspect/ban Pheromosa (it's 100% quickbannable, it's the best thing in the metagame by a wide margin and it's choking the life out of Offense), and the Kecleon problem will solve itself.
And oh, just to drop some other opinions, Pheromosa is probably an A+ mon if this om gets to have a VR. It gets lots of awesome donors like Kecleon,Mienshao, Tsareena,etc. All those get their own lapses which is mainly priority, with the exception of the Tsareena one. Like the kecleon one loses to spd venusaur-mega and cress, Mienshao and other physical Fully Variants dont get much of a say to bulky physical walls, like Toxapex,Doublade,Tapu Fini,Buzzwole,and I believe there's lot more. I dont think this needs to be quickbanned or anything, maybe just a suspect leaning on to dont ban at most, if ever people bring up some more issues, but this is no more than an unstopabble threat.

Also, Kecleon really just have an amazing ability and movepool, and i dont really know but it just leads me back thinking that hoopa is actually the best mon that gets donated by it. Similar things like Nido's, Tauros, etc. have also cool movepool and ability which also gives a number of mons some good offensive presence.

Reluctant readers' fave segment:
TL;DR: In my opinion, and maybe only in my opinion, Kartana and Hoopa-U are the most powerful hitters that have, making defensive archetypes a lesser option, and almost extinct in the meta, and are near impossible to check defensively. Shell smash is very easy to access and has a wide variety of users, which makes very hard to check all in one slot, and always need to take in consideration to check during teambuilding.

Bottomline is, the metagame becomes very bland because offense is a very easy playstyle to work with especially with all the firepower it has in this meta, leaving the creativity of balance and stall players be very inefficient because of the things abovementioned.

Tagging The Immortal to see what he thinks about these.

PS: I just realized that we have like 10 days or less to make changes D:
 
Last edited:
In my opinion Kartana is a lot stronger inheriting from Tapu Bulu than from Dhelmise.

Dhelmise gives you:
  • Anchor Shot
  • Power Whip
  • Steelworker
  • EQ
  • Swords Dance
but Bulu gives you:
  • Grassy Terrain
  • Wood Hammer(stronger than Power Whip)
  • various coverage options such as Superpower, Smart Strike, Stone Edge, Megahorn ...
  • Swords Dance/Bulk Up
  • Taunt (for stallbreaking)
Furthermore Bulu Kartana beat those comon Levitate Heatrans(without predicting): 252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 134-158 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
and has just more initial power than Dhelmise:
Bulu: 252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia in Grassy Terrain: 360-424 (81.6 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dhelmise: 252 Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Anchor Shot vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 240-283 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

TL;DR: In my opinion, and maybe only in my opinion, Kartana and Hoopa-U are the most powerful hitters that have, making defensive archetypes a lesser option, and almost extinct in the meta, and are near impossible to check defensively. Shell smash is very easy to access and has a wide variety of users, which makes very hard to check all in one slot, and always need to take in consideration to check during teambuilding.
honestly stall is really strong right now. Stall has good unaware options for Setup Moves and for Kartana we have Celesteela... leaving only Hoopa-U, Phero and some others as viable Wallbreakers. Especially since we have also good magic bouncers as well making taunt really unreliable...
 
Toxapex @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Defog
- Roost
- Dragon Tail

Here's a set I've been using to some success. It functions as a defogger that also offers slow u-turns. To keep it from being setup bait, dragon tail is there to phaze potential sweepers. It has good synergy with the multitude of steel types, providing resistance to fighting, fire, and an immunity to ground. The steel types are then able to switch in to the psychic terrain users this thing fears. Let me know what you think. Also, let me know if someone has already posted this.
 
In my opinion Kartana is a lot stronger inheriting from Tapu Bulu than from Dhelmise.

(...)
  • Wood Hammer(stronger than Power Whip)
(...)
Actually, you probably know this, but Power Whip and Wood Hammer have the same BP, the only difference is the recoil and accuracy. It only seems to hit harder because of the Grassy Terrain, which might be cancelled by some others Surge users like mons Inheriting from Lele or Koko (usually really aggressive mons that can outspeed and kill Kartana).

And Anchor Shot is way more threatening since it can trap the opponent. Per exemple, in the case you suggested, if the opponent keeps the Cresselia thinking it can take the hit (maybe not considering a Choice Band) but noticed it will get 2HKO'd they can easily switch, if you were using the Bulu set, to a better counter but if it's the Dhelmise set it will be guaranteedly one less Pokémon for 'em, which may cost the match.

You also seem to miss that Dhelmise has access to Switcheroo, which can make a wall useless if predicted correctly.

Furthermore Bulu Kartana beat those comon Levitate Heatrans(without predicting): 252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran in Grassy Terrain: 134-158 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Common Levitate Heatrans? I've never seen 'em.
And a (not so high) chance to 3HKO without SR ain't exactly what I call "beat". It pretty much opens space for a Torkoal Heatran to setup Shell Smash and comeback. If it is a really defensive Heatran (lol) it won't even do 15%.
 
Kartana can be scary for Offense (I got rolled by a garbage team last night because I wasn't expecting two scarfers), but another option I think people are leaving on the table is Sudowoodo. It gets Rock Head to nullify recoil, and it's got some REALLY powerful moves to abuse, first of which is Wood Hammer, and second of which is Head Smash. You also get Earthquake for Steel-types and Explosion to chunk something that resists Wood Hammer.

It's still not actually problematic in Inheritance, not when we have shit like Shift Gear or Shell Smash Megagross (good luck dealing with it because you locked yourself into Wood Hammer/Power Whip) and Sheer Force Pheromosa. Let's worry about the Pokemon that are invalidating half or more of the Pokedex first and see if any hard-hitters like Kartana need to be addressed next.
 
Dhelmise: 252 Atk Choice Band Steelworker Kartana Anchor Shot vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 240-283 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after leftovers recovery
and we have celesteela for kartana...
?-?
Sorry but this doesnt make sense at all to me. If you mean non-banded kartana, steel trappers are very common and most of the time unnoticed since any mon can steel trap you. In addition, steel trappers just make the work easier for kartana, whilst making good synergy with it.

good luck dealing with it cause you're choice locked etc etc.
Uhm. I'll switch in to my check? Can you pls elaborate more since you dont autolose when those things set up or fire something at you. Pretty sure good players prepare for these stuff and carries blanket checks especially for ss sweepers, so getting choice isnt really troublesome. I guess i have a fault for not clarifying that a single shell smash sweeper is not really threatening, but only if they stack up is what spells problems. I'll elaborate more stuff next time since im on cp atm.

PS: Levitate tran is a thing, and isnt actually bad of a set but torkoal sets overshadow it.
 
Alright I've decided to quickban Pheromosa as majority of the Inheritance community feels its a problem and I have not seen any arguments as to why it's balanced.

This leaves us with one week, enough time to suspect one or two threats. I'd like to see more discussion on the other Pokemon mentioned, within the next day or so, and I'll make a decision.
 

G-Luke

Sugar, Spice and One For All
is a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Here are some niche Kartana sets made to lure and beat counters.

Breloom (Kartana) @ Fightinium Z
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Ability: Technician
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Seed
- Superpower

Remember those nice Celesteela and Levitran sets that check / counter Kartana?

+2 252 Atk Kartana All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 374-441 (93.9 - 110.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Do you even want a calc for any version of Heatran?

This set ain't no gimmick either, as Spore Spam is quite effective and Technician Bullet Seed hits really hard coming off 181 Attack. Spore gives it more set up oppurtunities than it should get, and normal means of priority ain't gonna revengekill it (barring a Mach Punch). Can run Iron Tail + Steelium Z, but at that point Dhelmise is the better option. Just go to show Kartana ain't no one trick pony.
 
I think the clear-cut next option for a ban is Mega Metagross. Not only was its movepool expanded with way more nuclear options (Heavy Slam, Wild Charge, Flare Blitz, Close Combat, Head Smash), but it finally got good set-up options. Belly Drum, SD, Dragon Dance, and the two that break the camel's back, Shell Smash and Shift Gear. (Klinklang is strictly inferior to every viable Shell Smasher, but gives Gear Grind and Wild Charge and would still be broken with a Shell Smash ban). Even if you have one of the very few answers to it, any other Metagross can and will run you over because suddenly it has Heavy Slam and a bevy of other powerful attacks. Have you tried Golem-Alola or Forretress? Heavy Slam and Volt Switch is incredibly threatening (nothing gets Heavy Slam and U-turn, unfortunately) and there's really nothing that can deal with it pivoting that can also handle Heavy Slam + coverage.
 

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
I'd argue Kartana and Hoopa-U are more inclined towards being banned.
Both have offensive stats greater than most Mega evolutions, AND can hold items. While the only two sets that Kartana users ever give it get walled by Celesteela and Sap Sipper waters, Hoopa-U blatantly has no switchins with nearly any individual set. Pheromosa at least had walls due to the offenses not being nuclear enough, but Hoopa-U just blows that away, in addition to having incredibly sturdy special bulk.
Is having only Celesteela and Swampert/other Sap Sipper water as counters banworthy enough? ihdk
 
You're going to have to lay out one of Hoopa's uncounterable sets, because I'm trying to give it the most powerful options I can think of it something is walling it no matter what. I even gave it Nasty Plot and Protean and Chansey STILL walls you at +2; I used the One vs All option (which doesn't include Lightning Rod/Volt Absorb Fini). Of course, SpDef Fini lives 2 +2 Life Orb Protean Flamethrowers/Ice Beams 93.4% of the time with Rocks and leftovers. Xurkitree actually does a better job with Protean, seeing as how it is faster and more powerful. Hoopa can use Knock more effectively, but if you DO run Knock Off you're sacrificing Nasty Plot or coverage, so now something else walls it.

I really don't think you're bringing ladder experience to the table, because 1) Hoopa never broke any walls for me, and that was with Mega Launcher Dark Pulse, which only BARELY outdamages Phero's Sheer Force Focus Blast, my gold standard, and 2) Hoopa is worthless against Offense without a Scarf/Trick Room, and would be then useless against stall/defense because if you don't have Nasty Plot, Tail Glow, or maybe Shell Smash, you aren't doing any breaking.

Kartana is fairly one-dimensional, it just does the same thing (high power Grass- and Steel-type moves) several different ways, and suffers many the same problems as Hoopa. It either runs a broken move to beat both Offense and Stall (Shell Smash), or it gives up beating one for the other. Its lack of depth is highlighted in that you only need to slightly adjust for the changes, Anchor Shot being the largest adjustment. Speaking of, Anchor Shot would be a lot better if you couldn't stick pivoting on everything (like U-turn or Volt Switch on Mega Metagross, or Tornadus-Therian on Celesteela), but Kartana doesn't have the kind of bulk to come in frequently to trap something, and its significantly worse speed (we can put fantastic kits on much faster Pokemon, 109 doesn't cut it to be "good" in Inheritance. Fun fact, I didn't start running Scarf Archeops because it outsped Kartana). Anchor Shot would be uncompetitive if it were on a better offensive typing and if it weren't a move; obviously, Arena Trap would be broken as hell, but tell me how your CB Anchor Shot beats my Infernape Metagross (that I can switch in virtually every time), when I outspeed and OHKO you with two different options AND can U-turn out on the predicted switch, keeping initiative on my side, not that dropping any of 3 Tough Claws boosted moves with an effective minimum of base 120 BP (Infernape does get Iron Tail, which is imperfect but still 100% usable) is a bad option.

The best way I can explain Kartana is that it's a fantastic Pokemon if the skill gap if equal or in your favor. It's not like Regigigas inheriting Mega Lucario's kit, which just auto-wins if you don't have one of a very few very specific counter and they don't have a million anti-counters. But if well-played Offense doesn't have to play Stall's game of attrition AT ALL, or vice versa if you use Kartana on stall (Dugtrio was a legitimate option, nothing says Kartana can't be either).

Last thoughts: Obviously Shell Smash breaks all these Pokemon, but that's because Shell Smash is a broken move and could honestly go with a Metagrossite ban (because like I said earlier, Shift Gear Metagross would still be broken).
 
You're going to have to lay out one of Hoopa's uncounterable sets, because I'm trying to give it the most powerful options I can think of it something is walling it no matter what. I even gave it Nasty Plot and Protean and Chansey STILL walls you at +2; I used the One vs All option (which doesn't include Lightning Rod/Volt Absorb Fini). Of course, SpDef Fini lives 2 +2 Life Orb Protean Flamethrowers/Ice Beams 93.4% of the time with Rocks and leftovers. Xurkitree actually does a better job with Protean, seeing as how it is faster and more powerful. Hoopa can use Knock more effectively, but if you DO run Knock Off you're sacrificing Nasty Plot or coverage, so now something else walls it.

I really don't think you're bringing ladder experience to the table, because 1) Hoopa never broke any walls for me, and that was with Mega Launcher Dark Pulse, which only BARELY outdamages Phero's Sheer Force Focus Blast, my gold standard, and 2) Hoopa is worthless against Offense without a Scarf/Trick Room, and would be then useless against stall/defense because if you don't have Nasty Plot, Tail Glow, or maybe Shell Smash, you aren't doing any breaking.

Kartana is fairly one-dimensional, it just does the same thing (high power Grass- and Steel-type moves) several different ways, and suffers many the same problems as Hoopa. It either runs a broken move to beat both Offense and Stall (Shell Smash), or it gives up beating one for the other. Its lack of depth is highlighted in that you only need to slightly adjust for the changes, Anchor Shot being the largest adjustment. Speaking of, Anchor Shot would be a lot better if you couldn't stick pivoting on everything (like U-turn or Volt Switch on Mega Metagross, or Tornadus-Therian on Celesteela), but Kartana doesn't have the kind of bulk to come in frequently to trap something, and its significantly worse speed (we can put fantastic kits on much faster Pokemon, 109 doesn't cut it to be "good" in Inheritance. Fun fact, I didn't start running Scarf Archeops because it outsped Kartana). Anchor Shot would be uncompetitive if it were on a better offensive typing and if it weren't a move; obviously, Arena Trap would be broken as hell, but tell me how your CB Anchor Shot beats my Infernape Metagross (that I can switch in virtually every time), when I outspeed and OHKO you with two different options AND can U-turn out on the predicted switch, keeping initiative on my side, not that dropping any of 3 Tough Claws boosted moves with an effective minimum of base 120 BP (Infernape does get Iron Tail, which is imperfect but still 100% usable) is a bad option.

The best way I can explain Kartana is that it's a fantastic Pokemon if the skill gap if equal or in your favor. It's not like Regigigas inheriting Mega Lucario's kit, which just auto-wins if you don't have one of a very few very specific counter and they don't have a million anti-counters. But if well-played Offense doesn't have to play Stall's game of attrition AT ALL, or vice versa if you use Kartana on stall (Dugtrio was a legitimate option, nothing says Kartana can't be either).

Last thoughts: Obviously Shell Smash breaks all these Pokemon, but that's because Shell Smash is a broken move and could honestly go with a Metagrossite ban (because like I said earlier, Shift Gear Metagross would still be broken).
Porygon-Z Hoopa is the one in question. Specs Psyshock/Dark Pulse/Thunderbolt/HP Fight has no switchins bar specifically EV'd RegenVest Magearna (standard max spd won't do, and it takes more damage than it heals from switching regardless), Poison Heal Max SPD Umbreon, RegenVest Alolan Muk, and Lightningrod/Volt Absorb Mandibuzz. It can bypass the first two and any non +spd versions of the third by running download for +1 Spa, and the last can be taken out by Ice Beam. Everything else is 2HKOed after Stealth Rock or lacks recovery (FC Chansey because rest is too slow to heal of psyshock even with max hp/def). To make it even more impossible for stall to beat, it could also be a Life Orb Nasty Plot Pory-z Hoopa-U, or a Z-Conversion to Electric that laughs at your sack->Pursuit Trapper, or a Trick Specs variant instead of a 4 attacks specs variant to force you to bring in and cripple an answer to another sweeper.
 

The Official Glyx

Banned deucer.
You're going to have to lay out one of Hoopa's uncounterable sets, because I'm trying to give it the most powerful options I can think of it something is walling it no matter what. I even gave it Nasty Plot and Protean and Chansey STILL walls you at +2; I used the One vs All option (which doesn't include Lightning Rod/Volt Absorb Fini). Of course, SpDef Fini lives 2 +2 Life Orb Protean Flamethrowers/Ice Beams 93.4% of the time with Rocks and leftovers. Xurkitree actually does a better job with Protean, seeing as how it is faster and more powerful. Hoopa can use Knock more effectively, but if you DO run Knock Off you're sacrificing Nasty Plot or coverage, so now something else walls it.

I really don't think you're bringing ladder experience to the table, because 1) Hoopa never broke any walls for me, and that was with Mega Launcher Dark Pulse, which only BARELY outdamages Phero's Sheer Force Focus Blast, my gold standard, and 2) Hoopa is worthless against Offense without a Scarf/Trick Room, and would be then useless against stall/defense because if you don't have Nasty Plot, Tail Glow, or maybe Shell Smash, you aren't doing any breaking.

Kartana is fairly one-dimensional, it just does the same thing (high power Grass- and Steel-type moves) several different ways, and suffers many the same problems as Hoopa. It either runs a broken move to beat both Offense and Stall (Shell Smash), or it gives up beating one for the other. Its lack of depth is highlighted in that you only need to slightly adjust for the changes, Anchor Shot being the largest adjustment. Speaking of, Anchor Shot would be a lot better if you couldn't stick pivoting on everything (like U-turn or Volt Switch on Mega Metagross, or Tornadus-Therian on Celesteela), but Kartana doesn't have the kind of bulk to come in frequently to trap something, and its significantly worse speed (we can put fantastic kits on much faster Pokemon, 109 doesn't cut it to be "good" in Inheritance. Fun fact, I didn't start running Scarf Archeops because it outsped Kartana). Anchor Shot would be uncompetitive if it were on a better offensive typing and if it weren't a move; obviously, Arena Trap would be broken as hell, but tell me how your CB Anchor Shot beats my Infernape Metagross (that I can switch in virtually every time), when I outspeed and OHKO you with two different options AND can U-turn out on the predicted switch, keeping initiative on my side, not that dropping any of 3 Tough Claws boosted moves with an effective minimum of base 120 BP (Infernape does get Iron Tail, which is imperfect but still 100% usable) is a bad option.

The best way I can explain Kartana is that it's a fantastic Pokemon if the skill gap if equal or in your favor. It's not like Regigigas inheriting Mega Lucario's kit, which just auto-wins if you don't have one of a very few very specific counter and they don't have a million anti-counters. But if well-played Offense doesn't have to play Stall's game of attrition AT ALL, or vice versa if you use Kartana on stall (Dugtrio was a legitimate option, nothing says Kartana can't be either).

Last thoughts: Obviously Shell Smash breaks all these Pokemon, but that's because Shell Smash is a broken move and could honestly go with a Metagrossite ban (because like I said earlier, Shift Gear Metagross would still be broken).
The special side is near laughable as long as you have a pink blob on your team. The near-literally unwallable set is Banded Bruxish Hoopa-U with Crunch and Psychic Fangs. Magearna may be a great pokemon and all, but I don't think anyone wants to bring it on every team just for this one unwallable set.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Strong Jaw Hoopa-Unbound Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 174-205 (43 - 50.7%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Even the some of the bulkiest Intimidate mons we have struggle against it and straight up lose if given chip damage of any sort.

There's also another fun meme set that I tried involving inheriting from Ambipom and using lots of high Atk team members for one of the strongest Beat Ups in all Pokemon.

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Hoopa-Unbound Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 155-185 (45.1 - 53.9%) -- approx. 96.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

This is approximately the equivalent of a Technician Beat Up with all team members having base 120 atk, it hurts bad.

Physical Hoopa-U in Inheritance is basically the mon where if it gets in safely, something is dead.

I really don't think you're bringing ladder experience to the table
Could you elaborate here a little? I wanna make sure I understand this fully before carrying on.
 
ugh
*Hoopa-U Bruxish flashbacks*

EDIT:
Adding some thoughts on this post, I don't think Shell Smash is banworth, as well as Hoopa-U and Kartana.

Shell Smash users usually can be stopped before they use it, if it's not the Carracosta set (since it gives Sturdy), it usually will get OHKO'd by the HO mons in this tier or even by something it thinks to be safe thanks to the defenses reduction. Sticky Web can also make them slower than a few other pokés, which results in it getting easily possibly outspeed.
Even after they boosted 'emselves once you can use a few things to finish 'em off/stop 'em: Priority (if the set isn't a White Herb it will do some decent damage), specialized walls, Unaware, Status Ailments, Cheap Damage (Rocky Helmet, Rough Skin), and Phazers with Haze/Heart Swap are really effective too. Really extensive list. Hazards help a lot, and Red Card is funny.
I can't think of any mixed shell smash user, is there any? hm

Kartana can be outspeed and revenge killed easily. Also, many walls can take hits from its mostly predicable and low coverage without much problem. Weakness to Fighting and Fire is not cool too.

Hoopa-U sure hits hard, but its mediocre speed and lame bulky makes it kinda easy to counter. Just put something faster, or a priority and boom since stalling it won't really work most of the time.


EDIT2:
I just ran into a "locked player". Second time.
What the fuck? Against these guys we aren't able to see what they're inheriting from, which is the ultimate bullshit.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7inheritance-537075614

Is this some kind of bug? this need to be fixed asap since some will probably abuse this
 
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