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Thanks. I looked at page 3 and the reasoning for Psyduck being put to A was literally "It can learn ice punch." I'm not joking. That is some of the worst logic I've ever heard.
Someone else on page 3 said that it's better to just wait and catch Golduck when you can Surf, instead of training up a Psyduck. Lol He seems to recognize a shitty pokemon when he sees one. So, you could catch Golduck, but that requires you to go out of the way to catch another water pokemon to Surf in the first place. Golduck's catch rate also pales in comparison to Wooper's. Plus, the later you catch a pokemon in the game, the less relatively powerful it will be, as fresh pokes have 0 Stat EXP. If someone puts Quagsire and Golduck in the same boat, they have no clue what they're talking about.
Contrarily, Karxrida, I think you are undervaluing DVs. Each DV point gives 2 to a stat; the same as base stats. The difference between a 3 and a 13 Attack is 10 base points, which is huge. A Fearow (90) with a 14 and a Tauros (100) with a 4 will hit equally as hard. Make no mistake, it is a gigantic part of the game, including the in-game.
[Unrelated, but we're assessing the list, so kinda is].
Speaking of which, Magmar is only a 10% encounter during the Day time (5% all other times). Getting good DVs for him will prove relentlessly annoying, especially when his catch rate is a lot worse compared to other pokemon. With his catch rate, you could end up taking 2-3 minutes just to catch the damn thing, not even including the time it takes to encounter. Now, Magmar's movepool, stats, and (most importantly) his immediate power all make up for this quite a bit, but it's still a factor. So he probably does deserve A-tier, though it's a close call. Availability & convenience should not be neglected, and Magmar's is horrid.
I think this is a much more accurate list. The current one on the OP doesn't tell the whole story.
S
Totodile
Abra (Trade)
Spearow (Gift)
A+
Abra (Tradeless)
Cyndaquil
A
Mareep (GS)
Magmar (GS)
Teddiursa (C) [This one could be debated for A-]
Suicune (C)
Ho-oh (G)
Lugia (S)
Gastly (Trade)
Geodude (Trade)
Wooper
Both Nidoran
Tauros
Contrarily, Karxrida, I think you are undervaluing DVs. Each DV point gives 2 to a stat; the same as base stats. The difference between a 3 and a 13 Attack is 10 base points, which is huge. A Fearow (90) with a 14 and a Tauros (100) with a 4 will hit equally as hard. Make no mistake, it is a gigantic part of the game, including the in-game.
Isn't the difference in stats 1-to-1 only at level 100? That is, each DV yields 2 points to a stat at level 100, or 1 at level 50. That would make the hypothetical Fearow and Tauros only directly comparable at level 50, which would be around Elite Four in terms of levels.
Isn't the difference in stats 1-to-1 only at level 100? That is, each DV yields 2 points to a stat at level 100, or 1 at level 50. That would make the hypothetical Fearow and Tauros only directly comparable at level 50, which would be around Elite Four in terms of levels.
It seems so. Nothing wrong with that though. E4 is the juiciest time of the game, where you need those good stats. Those DVs can also make the difference in Kanto gym leader battles. And even if it's not 1-for-1 comparable before level 50, you'll still see a noticeable difference in the quality of the pokemon.
DVs hardly matter from an in-game perspective, especially in the old gens where the possible DV range is far more restricted than the IV system in later gens (only goes to 15 max, and only 4 DVs are really variable due to SpA and SpD sharing the same DV and HP being calculated by the other four). And besides, what you may potentially lack in DVs, you'll more than make up for in Stat Exp as the game progresses.
As for Psyduck, it gets both Surf and Ice Punch either immediately on capture, or shortly thereafter depending on the version and when/where you catch it. It may have a later evolution than most Pokemon, but those two moves alone will be good enough until it evolves (which honestly won't take that long after capture if you catch a higher lv one via surfing). Golduck itself also has pretty solid stats for in-game purposes, and beyond Surf/Ice Punch it can learn some neat physical moves as well such as Dig, or you can slap some of the other HMs to it for role compression.
DVs hardly matter from an in-game perspective, especially in the old gens where the possible DV range is far more restricted than the IV system in later gens (only goes to 15 max, and only 4 DVs are really variable due to SpA and SpD sharing the same DV and HP being calculated by the other four). And besides, what you may potentially lack in DVs, you'll more than make up for in Stat Exp as the game progresses.
As for Psyduck, it gets both Surf and Ice Punch either immediately on capture, or shortly thereafter depending on the version and when/where you catch it. It may have a later evolution than most Pokemon, but those two moves alone will be good enough until it evolves (which honestly won't take that long after capture if you catch a higher lv one via surfing). Golduck itself also has pretty solid stats for in-game purposes, and beyond Surf/Ice Punch it can learn some neat physical moves as well such as Dig, or you can slap some of the other HMs to it for role compression.
I'm afraid you have it backwards, my guy. The IV system is more forgiving than the DV system. The difference between a 6 and a 10 in DVs is double the difference it is in IVs. Thus, a small instance of less than ideal luck bears greater punishment to your stats. You have better chances to hit a combination of decent IVs than you do DVs. You could say that the IV system has a 'bigger dartboard'.
And yeah, Psyduck/Golduck might be "good enough" in the game, but is "good enough" how we describe A-tiers? It certainly isn't; they are the cream of the crop with a lot going for them. Psyduck, 1) has a lowish encounter rates, 2) needs to be coddled for a long time until it can get in the mid/upper 20s, 3) is underwhelming against every single gym, and 4) it's level up learnset is offensively bad. That is not A-rank material no matter how you look at it. That's MAYBE B material. Check a couple posts above at my revised tiering for an idea of how it should actually be looked at.
Edit: You mentioned Psyduck learns Dig as a perk, but that move has only 10 PP & 60 power and is pretty bad against Morty, since the damage from Curse racks up while underground. (does a Dig from 52 Base ATK even kill Haunter?) It's a really bad move all things considered. It's also in a very tucked-away location, requiring you to loop around the entire National Park: An ALREADY optional area of the game. So you are being bothered to navigate through trainers and get the TM. Being able to learn Dig is honestly not even a semblance of a point in favor of Psyduck, or any pokemon for that matter (unless it gets STAB of course; but even then it's still shaky). We'll be better off if we just face the facts: Psyduck/Golduck is not good.
I think this is a much more accurate list. The current one on the OP doesn't tell the whole story.
S
Totodile
Abra (Trade)
Spearow (Gift)
A+
Abra (Tradeless)
Cyndaquil
A
Mareep (GS)
Magmar (GS)
Teddiursa (C) [This one could be debated for A-]
Suicune (C)
Ho-oh (G)
Lugia (S)
Gastly (Trade)
Geodude (Trade)
Wooper
Both Nidoran
Tauros
Can you please explain anything about this? Throughout this thread you have maintained an aggressive attitude and tone while assuming you know better than everyone else; completely disregarding key information such as catching at a later level or that 'good enough' was purely in reference to one particular stage in a Pokémon's usage while refusing to explain any of your points and simply stating them as if they are matter-of-fact. You then give us this list which - aside from the few Pokémon you yourself have personally discussed - does not even go into basic explanation of why these Pokémon deserve these ranks, of why we need to split the A rank into three subsections, or why everything below 'A-' is 'largely negligible'. Please be a little bit more civil and respectful of the others in the thread and debate others' points without acting as if they're idiots, without ignoring context and a large proportion of their posts, and without dismissing things in favour of inadequate explanation.
I'm afraid you have it backwards, my guy. The IV system is more forgiving than the DV system. The difference between a 6 and a 10 in DVs is double the difference it is in IVs. Thus, a small instance of less than ideal luck bears greater punishment to your stats. You have better chances to hit a combination of decent IVs than you do DVs.
Perhaps, but let's be honest here, how many battles in this game will lower than average DVs cost you? These games aren't like USUM where bosses use max IV/EV'd Pokemon and competitive movesets against you. Your Pokemon, irregardless of their DVs, also have both the badge boosts and Stat Exp working in their favor against the AI.
And yeah, Psyduck/Golduck might be "good enough" in the game, but is "good enough" how we describe A-tiers? It certainly isn't; they are the cream of the crop with a lot going for them. Psyduck, 1) has a lowish encounter rates, 2) needs to be coddled for a long time until it can get in the mid/upper 20s, 3) is underwhelming against every single gym, and 4) it's level up learnset is offensively bad. That is not A-rank material no matter how you look at it. That's MAYBE B material. Check a couple posts above at my revised tiering for an idea of how it should actually be looked at.
1-2: It only has a lowish encounter rate in Crystal if you catch it via the grass, and even then it isn't terribly low. It has a whopping 90% encounter rate via surfing, and you can catch it up to lv 24 via surfing at Route 35. If that isn't on par with your team by that point, then it isn't very far behind unless you've been level grinding like hell.
3: If you catch it early, it isn't great against Whitney (but then again most Pokemon aren't), but it does ok against Morty with Surf spam, can take on Chuck with Surf and Confusion, takes out Steelix and Piloswine handily (Magnemite too esp with Dig), and can take on Clair's dragons with Ice Punch. For the Elite 4, it can take on Will's Xatus and Exeggutor with Ice Punch, can bruteforce Koga's team with Surf/Ice Punch, Bruno's a joke, and Karen's team save Umbreon and Gengar can quickly fall to the water/ice spam. And Golduck absolutely trashes Lance as long as you watch out for the Thunder-using Dragonite. I hardly see how that's poor; its basically the same matchups Totodile has (which you seem to agree is S)
4: Its level up moveset hardly matters though. The main moves it needs are Surf and Ice Punch, the former being an HM and the later being an easily purchasable TM, and Psyduck gets both very quickly. Beyond that you can use Strength or Return to round off coverage and use the last move for filler. The only high-demand move it may like is Dig, but its not necessary for Golduck if another Pokemon wants it
I also don’t see the point in worrying about DVs. Trying to find a Pokemon with decent DVs seems way too time consuming. Boxwood talks about how Psyduck has a low encounter rate, only to go on a tirade about how having good DVs are suddenly crucial to have an easier time to beat the game, when all you really need in the end is to be at a higher level. Like, I can understand if we’re talking about this in a speedrunning perspective, but it really doesn’t matter for everyone else.
Kurona Yeah, an explanation is very much due.
But I don't really have any attitude. It's just fierce debating. We're supposed to be having fun, right? I am at least. I don't get why hostility is being directed towards me in particular.
Totodile. Great stats, quick evolve, amazing movepool, gifted by Prof. Elm, good matchups. Abra. Good stats quick evolve, amazing movepool, purchasable, phenomenal gym/Elite4 matchups. Kenya. Good stats, quick evolve, decent movepool, strong dual STABs, gifted to the player, convenient location/low effort, 1.5x experience points. HM02 Slave at the very worst.
Cyndaquil. Great stats, quick evolve, good movepool. In A+ because of useful STAB & being a gift pokemon
Teddy (C). Could be in A- b/c of that terrible encounter rate, specific Timeslot, and late evolution. Otherwise, early availability, amazing movepool, good stats Tauros. Low encounter and specific Timeslot, low catch rate. Insane "immediate" power thanks to non-evolution, amazing movepool, good stats, late-ish availability.
Geodude (no trade). A- because of the fall off in usability and strength. Early availability, okay stats, excellent dual STABs strong level-up learnset, late-ish evolution. Girafarig (GS). Good stats, low-ish catch rate (better than Tauros' rate though) good "immediate" power thanks to non-evolution, excellent dual STABs, strong level-up learnset, fantastic gym/Elite4 matchups. good encounter rate, late-ish availability.
It's also funny how the posts against Girafarig keep getting a billion likes. Why don't the lurkers try giving some reasonable insight instead of circle jerking.
1-2: It only has a lowish encounter rate in Crystal if you catch it via the grass, and even then it isn't terribly low. It has a whopping 90% encounter rate via surfing, and you can catch it up to lv 24 via surfing at Route 35. If that isn't on par with your team by that point, then it isn't very far behind unless you've been level grinding like hell.
3: If you catch it early, it isn't great against Whitney (but then again most Pokemon aren't), but it does ok against Morty with Surf spam, can take on Chuck with Surf and Confusion, takes out Steelix and Piloswine handily (Magnemite too esp with Dig), and can take on Clair's dragons with Ice Punch. For the Elite 4, it can take on Will's Xatus and Exeggutor with Ice Punch, can bruteforce Koga's team with Surf/Ice Punch, Bruno's a joke, and Karen's team save Umbreon and Gengar can quickly fall to the water/ice spam. And Golduck absolutely trashes Lance as long as you watch out for the Thunder-using Dragonite. I hardly see how that's poor; its basically the same matchups Totodile has (which you seem to agree is S)
4: Its level up moveset hardly matters though. The main moves it needs are Surf and Ice Punch, the former being an HM and the later being an easily purchasable TM, and Psyduck gets both very quickly. Beyond that you can use Strength or Return to round off coverage and use the last move for filler. The only high-demand move it may like is Dig, but its not necessary for Golduck if another Pokemon wants it
You are required to backtrack, which uses up in-game clock time (not to mention is really annoying). It's especially relevant when aiming for new PRs (or just finish the game "efficiently" like people have said before).
Already need a surfer to get to it. So your guy is either a slave or a Totodile, meaning you're catching a second water type?
No stat exp at a middle point in the game. You'll be setting yourself up for a time commitment to train it up.
If you go the (level 7) Psyduck route, then the immediate power is awful and he can't even learn Fury Cutter. Ice Punch isn't beating Whitney unless you are level 25, give or take. And Level 25 was exactly the level I said you'd have to baby the Psyduck to in order to start doing damage. Go figure.
If he evolved at ~20-25, there'd be a strong case for Goldy in A or higher. The way it is now, A- is the best it could possibly be.
My arguments are sound. You guys just don't seem to like hearing it for whatever reason.
Karxrida OK now you are just stirring the pot on purpose, quoting old stuff from when I was a bit upset with what was happening. Why can't we just discuss the altering of the tiering normally? Can you provide me evidence for why Girafarig deserves to be ranked in line with those trashy mons in B & C?
I just joined this site and I'm already being treated terribly. Especially the passive aggressive "likes" on counterposts. I hate that facebook style liking system, it's disgusting. If nobody wants me posting anymore, then just say it right now. Or get thread owner and mods to block me if you love to do it that way.
Contrarily, Karxrida, I think you are undervaluing DVs. Each DV point gives 2 to a stat; the same as base stats. The difference between a 3 and a 13 Attack is 10 base points, which is huge. A Fearow (90) with a 14 and a Tauros (100) with a 4 will hit equally as hard. Make no mistake, it is a gigantic part of the game, including the in-game.
Isn't the difference in stats 1-to-1 only at level 100? That is, each DV yields 2 points to a stat at level 100, or 1 at level 50. That would make the hypothetical Fearow and Tauros only directly comparable at level 50, which would be around Elite Four in terms of levels.
Figured I might as well elaborate about the "giving 2 to a stat" thing.
^This is the stat calculation formula in Gen I and II for everything but HP (HP replaces that +5 at the end with +Level+10). So for example, let's do a mon with 0 stat EXP, and base 100 stat at level 20 to make math fast and fun. First one will be with 0 DVs, second will be with 1 DV.
[(100+0)*2]*20=4000/100=40 truncates to 40+5=45
[(100+1)*2]*20=4040/100=40.4 truncates to 40+5=45
As you can see, at level 20 a single DV usually doesn't make any difference (there's a few cases where it would but not in this example, and never more than an increase of 1). In fact, at level 20 you only see a difference of 1 if you go from 0 to 3 DVs.
Obviously this changes as you go higher, and if you go all the way up to level 100 we do see:
[(100+0)*2]*100=20000/100=200 truncates to 200+5=205
[(100+1)*2]*100=20200/100=202 truncates to 202+5=207
The correct part of what Boxwood said, though, is that base stats and DVs are essentially equal - that is 10 more DVs is the equivalent of 10 more base stats at every level.
You are required to backtrack, which uses up in-game clock time (not to mention is really annoying). It's especially relevant when aiming for new PRs (or just finish the game "efficiently" like people have said before).
Already need a surfer to get to it. So your guy is either a slave or a Totodile, meaning you're catching a second water type?
No stat exp at a middle point in the game. You'll be setting yourself up for a time commitment to train it up.
If you go the (level 7) Psyduck route, then the immediate power is awful and he can't even learn Fury Cutter. Ice Punch isn't beating Whitney unless you are level 25, give or take. And Level 25 was exactly the level I said you'd have to baby the Psyduck to in order to start doing damage. Go figure.
If he evolved at ~20-25, there'd be a strong case for Goldy in A or higher. The way it is now, A- is the best it could possibly be.
My arguments are sound. You guys just don't seem to like hearing it for whatever reason.
Karxrida OK now you are just stirring the pot on purpose, quoting old stuff from when I was a bit upset with what was happening. Why can't we just discuss the altering of the tiering normally? Can you provide me evidence for why Girafarig deserves to be ranked in line with those trashy mons in B & C?
I just joined this site and I'm already being treated terribly. Especially the passive aggressive "likes" on counterposts. I hate that facebook style liking system, it's disgusting. If nobody wants me posting anymore, then just say it right now. Or get thread owner and mods to block me if you love to do it that way.
1: Sure you have to backtrack a little, but it only takes a couple of mins to do at that point in the game, considering where it’s located. The Route 35 method is arguably less time-consuming than having to baby an underleveled one from Ilex. Also these tier lists aren’t focused on speedrunning, but are based on efficent runs with teams of roughly four Pokemon. If you are speedrunning, these tier lists are basically irrelevant since you’ll be tearing through the game with just 1 Pokemon anyway.
2: Sentret learns Surf in Gen II, so if your heart is set on using Psyduck, you can easily just grab a Sentret at the beginning of the game w/o any trouble. Poliwag works too in Crystal.
3: That’s only immediately after capture. Route trainers are still piss-weak at this point.
4: I personally think catching a Psyduck via surfing is the most efficient way to go, even if you are playing Crystal. The Ilex one comes far too underleveled, and it gains no significant matchups that it would miss out on later, especially since its main moves won’t be immediately available to it. The surfing Psyduck comes on par with your team, and you can slap its main moves on immediately, arguably saving you more time and a headache (Pokepun partially intended)
5: ...it’s already in A, so why are we arguing about it then?
If my head could pile drive through my desk right now, I would do it in a heartbeat.
Let's go over a couple of things that have been bothering me lately, both with some recent trends and some of the latest posts:
I'll weigh in on the Girafarig debate I guess. I tried it, it's pretty good, B rank is probably good placement since its not that much more out of the way than Tauros if you bring some Repels for Mt. Mortar (they're about even in search time probably - Tauros has a low encounter rate but Girafarig requires significant travel), but it's not a world beater by any means and it has some disadvantages. Pidgey and Rattata have an availability lead and similar Speed + Attack, but their key advantage is that they have more time to build up happiness so they get a stronger Return faster. Pidgey also performs sufficiently well against Fighting/Gastlys and Rattata can take Dig/Iron Tail to help cover Gastly and Rocks. Tauros isn't THAT helpless against Normal resists - Surf HM is free and lets it kill Geodudes just fine, Gastly is the only relevant Ghost for ingame and is uncommon so you can just leave them to a teammate like your starter (or you can just give Tauros Iron Tail/EQ so it can handle them itself) and Steels are irrelevant since those also wall Girafarig. Girafarig's Psychic STAB advantages over Tauros disappear completely once EQ TM is available and arguably aren't THAT important since Tauros's overall superior strength makes up the difference.
I do think that it clearly loses to Kadabra in terms of being a Psychic - Kadabra is stronger and has an immediate massive movepool advantage in Elemental Punches. About the only thing Kadabra is worse vs than Girafarig is Karen. Abra is cheaply bought at the Game Corner and can be immediately TM'd Elemental Punches to start wrecking faces, so it does not require that much babying lol. Meanwhile Girafarig has to wait until Level 41 to get a STAB move with >50 power - it plays more like a Normal type that has better Special attacking ability than a Psychic. That does make it a pretty good jack-of-all-trades, but it is the master of none, and is overall less efficient than using a "master of some" mon like Kadabra or Tauros.
Girafarig on its own is a good mon though, like most of the other Normals. It's major advantage over the other Normals is being able to beat Morty by itself, but other than that its not that much better as it has lesser STABS, or lesser availability, and its interesting movepool options are late or locked behind TMs. I think B rank is fair alongside Pidgey and Raticate, it has better endgame performance and Morty but worse availability
I can acknowledge that as a good argument. It's nothing extreme, it gets straight to the point, and doesn't involve this nonsense of the current arguments which reek.
If you get a bit later (that's usually the best time to receive it) you get Surf and Ice Punch immediately. In comparison, while you rag on 's low Attack with Dig, Croconaw isn't really a ton better with 59 SpA to 's 65, and can reach a more respectable SpA stat of 95 as a Golduck compared to Gatr's 79. The level difference in evolution isn't really too steep unless you hard solo the game with Totodile, but chances are you're probably training at least a Spearow or Pidgey to wrestle Chikorita until you get to Goldenrod. There aren't many highly valued Water-types because a lot of them are locked onto Stone evolutions (Poliwag, Staryu), have mediocrity periods (Wooper), availability, among other problems. There definitely are other good Water-types, but some suffer from being available even later than (Seel), require a specific time of day which could be hard to argue for (Lapras), or suffer STABs in awkward places (Slowpoke, which has Water Gun Confusion, but also runs off of a pathetic 40 SpA stat).
I think is fine in higher tiers. Could be B, but if the worst-case scenario is a small backtrack (an argument you even acknowledge for ranking Girafarig even though I think it's rather pointless) for a Water-type Pokemon that's pretty solid overall without too many glaring issues is fine for A.
Also small point - Golduck is obtainable in Route 35 via Surfing, though rarer, it has a 10% chance of being found.
Contrarily, Karxrida, I think you are undervaluing DVs. Each DV point gives 2 to a stat; the same as base stats. The difference between a 3 and a 13 Attack is 10 base points, which is huge. A Fearow (90) with a 14 and a Tauros (100) with a 4 will hit equally as hard. Make no mistake, it is a gigantic part of the game, including the in-game.
I'm going to go into a rather huge rant here, so for those who do not know anything about Fire Emblem I will at least spare you with the information. For those that want the tl;dr version but still like FE, it'll be below the hide tag. There's some USUM spoilers too - take caution.
DVs are a rather consequential thing in the grand scope of things. Adding to some of the argument Merrit mentioned above me, DVs are randomized beyond having things on-hand like LUA scripts or anything to help with determining the right DVs and the like. DVs don't really make the Pokemon anyway, at least for the most part, and resetting constantly for perfect DVs is horribly inefficient in comparison to just using what was given to you.
Look, I get that dondon151 as an example reset for higher stats on his HM units, but you have to understand in those examples they were rather extreme because dondon was also playing with a major handicap of having no growths - a liberty that the average FE player and the average Pokemon player have. DVs would only be a huge deal in situations such as the player having absolutely no access to experience whatsoever, or in situations where significant KO ranges matter (and those are extremely volatile and difficult to calculate since DVs range quite a bit). Realistically the only time DVs should ever be part of an argument is for the shiny eggs that you get, and technically shiny Gyarados. Growths and bases are definitely part of a unit, but arguments of being RNG-screwed (similar somewhat to DV-screwed) should be used loosely because it is rather difficult to determine when those circumstances happen because it's all randomized anyway. You can rig and cheat for the desired growth and DVs, but unless it hits a very specific benchmark you're likely using up more time that can be used to get further ahead in the game in comparison of a potentially inconsequential reset for a stat.
Also RE: the Surf argument. The biggest thing with Surf is that Pokemon can also pass the baton to another teammate when they're starting to underperform. In example I argued Rowlett to be saved from the bottom tier in USUM Tier List - not because Rowlett is awesome and not because of Braviary, but because it has some earlygame utility with WIng Attack crushing Hala and being okay against Totem Araquanid and Totem Lurantis. A lot of FE units like Dorcas, Oswin, Garcia, and a few others are only usable for very short periods of time, but their contributions are somewhat worthwhile to be used. In the same vein - a non-Totodile player may pick up Wooper to help alleviate some of the issues that the team has issues against (Rock- and Ground-types for Cynda, Fire-types for Chiko). There's also the fact that Wooper gives an immunity to Electric-types, and there aren't a ton of them until later on but they do hug around for a short time. That isn't to say things such as to suddenly throw a Wooper on every team as an example, but it can fill niches in certain teams if need be.
Ultimately, the player has options for Surf, especially in Crystal, that they can choose from and merely use as temporary slaves until they get their desired Water-type Pokemon. Hell, they can even use that Water-type Pokemon for a very short term until they get the one they want.
The tl;dr / non-FE version of things - DVs are too random, often make very small-to-almost no impact on the progression of the game, and the specific KO ranges that it reaches with good DVs are likely minor at best.
I think this is a much more accurate list. The current one on the OP doesn't tell the whole story.
I just joined this site and I'm already being treated terribly. Especially the passive aggressive "likes" on counterposts. I hate that facebook style liking system, it's disgusting. If nobody wants me posting anymore, then just say it right now. Or get thread owner and mods to block me if you love to do it that way.
Often, I've been seen as the blunt person. I've had to do this when doing administrative decisions throughout my previous and current job, throughout my tenure at Smogon University, and sometimes in relationships. I'll be absolutely blunt with what I'll say next to not beat around the bushes:
I don't mind that you have came in and attempted to at least create some discussion. I think, for what it's worth, not everything you have said has been completely awful, but some of the arguments also make you come off very quickly as a gigantic prick that sometimes can't take some criticism behind it. You were quite agitated after your Kadabra vs Girafarig argument was easily torn to shreds, and then attempted to go about in the tier list continuing to make a mockery of some of the other users or, worse, myself. I'm quite a busy person at times and often my free time cannot always be dedicated to every part of the site (let alone the site as is), though in an effort to help those such as friends throughout the community as well as as a side hobby I help around the place. I can't always stay committed to keeping the tier list updated every minute (the Watch feature is kind of buggy as of late too, something that doesn't help), and being rather abrasive about the entire scope of the tier list and some of the counterarguments brought against you doesn't help your case either. I admit, Karxida definitely was baiting you a bit with his recent post, but many others like Xen have brought a lot of great arguments to the table to help demonstrate why some of the information that you have presented isn't exactly accurate. Instead, you somewhat jumped to the conclusion as soon as the Psyduck argument happened when Golduck is a very obtainable Pokemon with an even smaller backtrack of all things at a fairly decent level with good stats behind it. It's nothing that screams S rank, I'll give you that, but it definitely holds its weight in what it can contribute throughout the game. It's no Totodile and has some drawbacks in comparison to some of its Water-type brethren, but having access to a more freely-accessible Ice Punch is a lot better than fighting for Icy Wind like some Water-types desperately have to do to stay as relevant.
I'm not going to dissuade you from posting. I encourage discussion, but let's try to be civil, a little more level-headed, and (most importantly) reasonable on what we're arguing. Going for optimal DVs is not reasonable. Girafarig to B is. I don't moderate this particular part of the forum, and even if I did, the worst I would probably request is to ease up a bit on the venom (and I will also request the same from everyone else please) and let's try to carry on.
Shouldn't Spearow have something like (Kenya) next to its name to help players distinguish which actual Spearow to obtain, or am I not seeing something and Spearow in general is an S ranked mon?
Shouldn't Spearow have something like (Kenya) next to its name to help players distinguish which actual Spearow to obtain, or am I not seeing something and Spearow in general is an S ranked mon?
Kenya's advantages:
- Traded, so faster XP growth
- Faster access to moves such as Drill Peck
Regular Spearow's advantages:
- Obtainable early enough to be used in some clutch battles (Bugsy, 2nd Rival match vs Bayleaf)
- Higher BP Return for a period of time (until Kenya catches up in happiness)
Ok so I was correct in how I previously viewed the list. I had thought it was just for showing which mons are super solid, reliable teammates. When my Girafarig point got dismissed for nothing, that gave off the impression that the only things that could ever DREAM of touching the S-tier & A-tier need to one knockout of a pokemon. But it appears that was never the case. Girafarig is most certainly a very solid teammate with a fantastic early-game movepool, excellent typing, impressive coverage with it's dual STABs & positive gym/E4 matchups. How is such a pokemon not A-rank material? I don't understand why the judgment for this crap seems to be so arbitrary; there is absolutely no uniformity. Is someone going to explain, or is there just more baiting and dismissing in store?
Ok so I was correct in how I previously viewed the list. I had thought it was just for showing which mons are super solid, reliable teammates. When my Girafarig point got dismissed for nothing, that gave off the impression that the only things that could ever DREAM of touching the S-tier & A-tier need to one knockout of a pokemon. But it appears that was never the case. Girafarig is most certainly a very solid teammate with a fantastic early-game movepool, excellent typing, impressive coverage with it's dual STABs & positive gym/E4 matchups. How is such a pokemon not A-rank material? I don't understand why the judgment for this crap seems to be so arbitrary; there is absolutely no uniformity. Is someone going to explain, or is there just more baiting and dismissing in store?
Going to be blunt again - let's not assume stuff like baiting and dismissing. Fireburn already explained this pretty well in his post from earlier:
I'll weigh in on the Girafarig debate I guess. I tried it, it's pretty good, B rank is probably good placement since its not that much more out of the way than Tauros if you bring some Repels for Mt. Mortar (they're about even in search time probably - Tauros has a low encounter rate but Girafarig requires significant travel), but it's not a world beater by any means and it has some disadvantages. Pidgey and Rattata have an availability lead and similar Speed + Attack, but their key advantage is that they have more time to build up happiness so they get a stronger Return faster. Pidgey also performs sufficiently well against Fighting/Gastlys and Rattata can take Dig/Iron Tail to help cover Gastly and Rocks. Tauros isn't THAT helpless against Normal resists - Surf HM is free and lets it kill Geodudes just fine, Gastly is the only relevant Ghost for ingame and is uncommon so you can just leave them to a teammate like your starter (or you can just give Tauros Iron Tail/EQ so it can handle them itself) and Steels are irrelevant since those also wall Girafarig. Girafarig's Psychic STAB advantages over Tauros disappear completely once EQ TM is available and arguably aren't THAT important since Tauros's overall superior strength makes up the difference.
I do think that it clearly loses to Kadabra in terms of being a Psychic - Kadabra is stronger and has an immediate massive movepool advantage in Elemental Punches. About the only thing Kadabra is worse vs than Girafarig is Karen. Abra is cheaply bought at the Game Corner and can be immediately TM'd Elemental Punches to start wrecking faces, so it does not require that much babying lol. Meanwhile Girafarig has to wait until Level 41 to get a STAB move with >50 power - it plays more like a Normal type that has better Special attacking ability than a Psychic. That does make it a pretty good jack-of-all-trades, but it is the master of none, and is overall less efficient than using a "master of some" mon like Kadabra or Tauros.
Girafarig on its own is a good mon though, like most of the other Normals. It's major advantage over the other Normals is being able to beat Morty by itself, but other than that its not that much better as it has lesser STABS, or lesser availability, and its interesting movepool options are late or locked behind TMs. I think B rank is fair alongside Pidgey and Raticate, it has better endgame performance and Morty but worse availability
(And for the record non-traded Kadabra also dropped to A). I'd be more sold on it if Psybeam was available a bit sooner than Level 43 (or Psychic, but that's also kind of late), leaving it with Confusion for advantages over Tauros (versus arguably having Surf which is better vs Rock-types). Shadow Ball definitely helps in comparison vs Tauros, but there's not really a huge flood of Ghost-types outside of Morty's Gym afterwards (like, there's Karen's Gengar... and...?). It's nice against the Psychic-types, but Tauros's Return is still doing a respectable amount by that point anyway.
I think it's fine in B. I don't really see a reason to push it to A just yet, but I'll leave the conversation open to see what happens from other users.
I didn't know you updated it until you said so. I've gotta say it looks a lot better now. I'm glad things worked out. I may have been aggressive; I was trying to defend my Girafarig. Apologies to those effected by me.
Colonel M - Thoughts on bumping Espeon up to B? I posted a nomination a few pages ago and you mentioned you'd have a think, but Espeon's still in C and I don't think it's been addressed yet. The grinding aspect wasn't too bad from my experience (I've expanded on it in my nomination), and I definitely think the ease with which it tears through the later stages of the game after evolving more than makes up for it.
I don't really agree with dropping Abra (No Trade). Yeah Alakazam is objectively better than Kadabra, but the end result of using either is effectively the same -- they both dominate the game. Alakazam just has some marginally better performance in neutral match-ups.
I'm personally not entirely sold on raising Espeon. The grinding and resource sinking are pretty significant, and all you get of if it is a Kadabra without coverage. (Which is still good, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort for a B.)
Espeon's not really worth it honestly. If we valued mons based on what they will "eventually be", then stuff like Gamecorner Dratini would be a crazy good option; but it's not. Fact of the matter is that immediate power, flexibility, & convenience are the three most important traits, and Espy touts none of these. It has eventual power down pat, though it's still a letdown since there are some super strong late-game options competing with it. Of course, it is my understanding we aren't supposed to rate based off what pokemon COULD have been used instead, but still.
Perhaps more relevant is the time-dump Espeon asks of in order to become anything more than gutter trash. Gaining 16 levels for a STAB move AND a happiness evolution is more than merely tedious, it is borderline ridiculous. The Eevees are an unfortunate bunch; attractive stats, yet can't do anything with them. No chance Espeon is B; I'm confident we can all agree on that.
Tbf you can teach Eevee the Headbutt TM immediately, which does help its early period a little until it evolves, but yeah I'm not sold on Espeon being B either. Even if you give it a haircut right when you pick it up, it still won't be evolving till late in Johto. I've actually been using on in my playthrough of Gold on the 3DS VC (which has been on hiatus for a while); I gave it two of the expensive haircuts, one when I picked it up and the other when I was going through the Surfing areas around Union cave and R34, and despite that +all the walking, it still has yet to evolve at lv. 32, sitting at Jasmine's feet for Gym 7. And tbh even if you bend over backwards to ensure it evolves early, it misses out on Bite if you evolve it prior to lv. 30, which kinda sucks since Bite offers good neutral coverage alongside the Psychic STAB.
And speaking of which, the general lateness of its Psychic moves is also an issue with it. Considering you obtain Eevee at lv. 20, the first Psychic move you'll see is Psybeam at lv. 36 since move re-learners don't exist in this generation outside of Stadium 2. Until then, all you have is Headbutt and maybe Mud-Slap until you reach the 30s.
Espeon is definitely a decent Pokemon once it does evolve, and it is the best Eeveelution in the game without a doubt, but you still have to baby the hell out of it until it evolves and starts to pick up its special attacks. If you're unfortunate enough for it to evolve after lv. 36, then you only get screwed even further.
Let's also not forget Eevee itself requires backtracking to obtain. It may be a gift pokemon, which is a really big plus, but it's a gift pokemon lacking good stats, linear evolution, good level-up learnset, etc. etc. Not to mention you are forced to listen to Bill ramble on about his time machine for ages. It's always best to just never enter the Ecruteak Pokecenter Lol.
The backtracking is not too huge deal if you have a Teleporting Pokemon on hand, yet still a burden nonetheless. Route 35 + National Park is the most annoying land-based area in the entire game (obviously excluding the ocean Route(s) near Cianwood and the Whirl Islands), so anything that makes you go through there is getting points deducted. As this applies to Eevee, that means the annoyance of Espeon is similarly magnified.
a bit later (that's usually the best time to receive it) you get Surf and Ice Punch immediately. In comparison, while you rag on 
's low Attack with Dig, Croconaw isn't really a ton better with 59 SpA to 
's 65, and 
can reach a more respectable SpA stat of 95 as a Golduck compared to Gatr's 79. The level difference in evolution isn't really too steep unless you hard solo the game with Totodile, but chances are you're probably training at least a Spearow or Pidgey to wrestle Chikorita until you get to Goldenrod. There aren't many highly valued Water-types because a lot of them are locked onto Stone evolutions (Poliwag, Staryu), have mediocrity periods (Wooper), availability, among other problems. There definitely are other good Water-types, but some suffer from being available even later than 
(Seel), require a specific time of day which could be hard to argue for (Lapras), or suffer STABs in awkward places (Slowpoke, which has Water Gun Confusion, but also runs off of a pathetic 40 SpA stat).
is fine in higher tiers. Could be B, but if the worst-case scenario is a small backtrack (an argument you even acknowledge for ranking Girafarig even though I think it's rather pointless) for a Water-type Pokemon that's pretty solid overall without too many glaring issues is fine for A.
