GSC In-Game Tier List

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atsync

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I don't think Magmar getting Sunny Day as a level up move is much of an advantage. TM11 is obtained in the Radio Tower after beating Team Rocket which is around the same time as Magmar reaching level 33, maybe slightly later. And it's not like that TM is in great demand.

There was some discussion about dropping Magmar to A tier earlier in this thread for what it's worth.
 

Colonel M

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I brought the A Magmar because I wasn't sure on everyone's stance on it.

But yeah we can knock Magmar to A. Guess Totodile and Abra remain S Bros for life.
 
I'd personally elect to keep Magmar in S Rank rather than drop him to A, but could see the case.

Magmar's early access to Fire Punch on top of having a higher Special Attack than Quilava means that he'll be doing significantly more damage in the battles he's expected to contribute to, compared to Quilava's greater reliance on Ember for a Fire move. While not by much, Magmar also takes hits slightly better, which lessens the need for items in any battle where he doesn't quite manage a KO he needs. Puts in work in many of the same places Quilava/Typhlosion would, only really missing out significantly on Sprout Tower and Bugsy.

(Pardon this part. Not sure how it fits into the "availability" criteria, if anything at all)

And this may seem a bit minor, but Magmar's availability I feel is balanced by a lack of real opportunity cost. Even if Cyndaquil, in the long run, can do most of the same stuff, choosing him means I can't use Totodile, which locks me out of what is currently the best ranked Water type in the game. Magmar and Cyndaquil share targets in the Rival battles (Sneasel, Magnemite, Golbat w/ Thunderpunch), but Magmar allows a match up against Meganium, more easily handled either by Magmar himself, or some other high mons like Gastly (Trade), the Nidos, or Fire Punch Abra, or against opposing Typhlosion (Geodude, Gyarados, Quagsire, etc).

Fire Types outside of Cyndaquil and Magmar are pretty rare on the whole, and I think the opportunity cost of not having Totodile could justify a rank difference between the two if it landed Magmar anywhere except S. As is, Magmar feels like the shakiest S Rank, but I think he deserves to be on the upper half.
 
WHY IS TEDDIURSA ONLY B in Crystal ?!

Teddiursa(C) is atleast A and my honest opinion it is S: IT LEARNS EVERY IMPORTANT MOVE! And I have proof for every important battle:

Gym Leader Battle 1


Gym Leader Battle 2


Gym Leader Battle 3

Gym Leader Battle 4

Gym Leader Battle 5

Gym Leader Battle 6

Gym Leader Battle 7

Team Rocket Battle (also used Slavedos ingame: Trained with EXPShare)

Gym Leader Battle 8


I solo'ed the entire game with it: I did battle any trainer outside, but I grinded it due to the nature of a solo run: As I faced trainer, it was in the beginning too obviously, it gained more and more EXP. The 8 Level jump between Gym 4 and 5 is simple: Lighthouse, Surf, the Ocean with Tentracruel trainer giving ~900(!!) EXP

It gets Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Fire Punch, Dig, Return with STAB, later Earthquake, Dynamic Punch, Faint Attack. In the beginning it gets Lick against Ghastly in the Bellsprout Tower. Its evolution at Level 30 has base 130 attack.

The coverage, just enough speed, 75 ""usable"" Special Attack, STAB Return, and the possibility of a solo run makes it a valid candidate for a S Pokemon
 
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Xen

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WHY IS TEDDIURSA ONLY B in Crystal ?!

Teddiursa(C) is atleast A and my honest opinion it is S: IT LEARNS EVERY IMPORTANT MOVE! And I have proof for every important battle:
Gym Leader Battle 1


Gym Leader Battle 2


Gym Leader Battle 3

Gym Leader Battle 4

Gym Leader Battle 5

Gym Leader Battle 6

Gym Leader Battle 7

Team Rocket Battle (also used Slavedos ingame: Trained with EXPShare)

Gym Leader Battle 8
I personally used Teddiursa in my last play through of Crystal, and it's not A-worthy. The problem is availability. Sure it comes much earlier in Crystal than it does in Gold, but it only appears in Dark Cave during the morning hours, has roughly a 5% encounter rate, and a 50% flee rate to top it off. I spent a good hour catching mine because they kept fleeing on the 1st turn, and they're not the easiest thing to catch when all you have are Poke Balls at that point in the game.
 
I personally used Teddiursa in my last play through of Crystal, and it's not A-worthy. The problem is availability. Sure it comes much earlier in Crystal than it does in Gold, but it only appears in Dark Cave during the morning hours, has roughly a 5% encounter rate, and a 50% flee rate to top it off. I spent a good hour catching mine because they kept fleeing on the 1st turn, and they're not the easiest thing to catch when all you have are Poke Balls at that point in the game.
So because you wasted 1 hour catching it, it isn't A rank. Okay...

Protip: Get a Ghastly, setup Hypnosis, catch it. Not a hard concept is it?,

By the way
The availability is actually superb: You can get one as soon as with 0 badges. That's even better than Tauros or Miltank. That alone warrants it a better tier, as it even has a better coverage movepool, and as with proof above, can solo the game(and if you can solo the game from THE BEGINNING it is definitely an A rank mon to me. If you buy Ice Punch and keep it in your pocket, you can solo the E4 with Dynamic Punch/ Return / Earthquake/ Punches)
 

Xen

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So because you wasted 1 hour catching it, it isn't A rank. Okay...
When these tier lists are based on efficiency, yes wasting an hour or so for one Pokemon doesn't warrant A-tier. Sure, it's always possible to catch one while just passing through Dark Cave, but it's far more likely you'll have to sidetrack time and resources for it considering the rarity, catch rate, and flee flag. Earlier in the thread, I knocked Dunsparce for its availability, but I found two wild Dunsparce (without the swarm) before I finally caught a single Teddiursa.

Teddiursa's a good Pokemon if you can catch it (mine was the MVP of my team), but catching it is hardly efficient unless you get lucky, which is why B tier is fine for it imo.

Protip: Get a Ghastly, setup Hypnosis, catch it. Not a hard concept is it?,
GSC wild Pokemon that are capable of fleeing will still run even when asleep.

By the way
The availability is actually superb: You can get one as soon as with 0 badges. That's even better than Tauros or Miltank. That alone warrants it a better tier, as it even has a better coverage movepool, and as with proof above, can solo the game(and if you can solo the game from THE BEGINNING it is definitely an A rank mon to me. If you buy Ice Punch and keep it in your pocket, you can solo the E4 with Dynamic Punch/ Return / Earthquake/ Punches)
Just because it comes early doesn't always mean its availability is good. Tauros and Miltank won't flee from you, and you have stronger Poke Balls to catch it with (including the Friend Ball for an immediately powerful Return).
 
Well, started a run this week.
Gonna use Chikorita (lol, Hard mode.), Spearow, The Odd Egg (Whatever it hatches), Sudowoodo, Espeon and Magnemite.
If anyone wants I can post some opinions. Right now, I just arrived in Goldenrod.
 

atsync

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I have spoken favorably of Crystal Teddiursa for a while but I'd say S-Tier is way too high just because of how difficult it can be to catch.

GSC wild Pokemon that are capable of fleeing will still run even when asleep.
This page suggests that the roaming Pokemon won't flee when asleep in gen 2. Are the other fleeing Pokemon exempt from this?

(I would test this myself but I've just discovered my Silver cart has had its battery run dry for the second time -_-)

------------------------------------------------


On another note, I think at some point we are going to have to go over each tier one by one and analyse every single Pokemon. Currently the discussion seems a bit disorganized with lots of different Pokemon being discussed at once, and for me its a bit difficult to keep track of everything, let alone come to a consensus on what the tiers are supposed to represent.

Eventually I'd like to see something similar to what IAR did towards the end of the tiering phase of the XY tier list, or what I tried to do with the RBY one: put a list of Pokemon up for discussion, encourage discussion of ONLY those Pokemon until some sort of consensus is reached, and then move on to another list of Pokemon. Colonel M has made attempts to guide discussion previously (Nidos, Mareep, etc.) which is great, but we'll probably need to get serious about doing the same for everything else.
 

Colonel M

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I did shuffle a few things around given the current discussions and what they concluded:

- Magmar from S to A
- Spearow from B to A
- Tediursa (C) from B to A

I think we said Seel for B was fine and the Nidos are still one of those currently discussed. So let's progress and focus on S and A like atsync has suggested.

S Tier:
- Abra (Trade)
- Abra (No Trade)
- Totodile

A Tier:
- Cyndaquil
- Gastly (Trade)
- Geodude (Trade)
- Geodude (No Trade)
- Ho-oh (G)
- Lugia (S)
- Magikarp
- Magmar (GS)
- Miltank
- Nidoran F
- Nidoran M
- Psyduck
- Spearow
- Suicune (C)
- Tauros
- Teddiursa (C)
- Wooper

I'll also reflect my current thoughts.

- S Tier is rather small. Abra and Totodile, while two very powerful Pokemon, could be justified roughly within the same tier as the A Tier mons. They do occasionally have flaws presented to them, but there is no denial that they contribute heavily when used properly. That's partly why I have been nervous to take them down to A or even pulling some from A to S. They stand out well, but in my honest opinion - just barely. I have no real qualms keeping them in S though - they really are the best in my opinion.

- Ho-oh and Lugia (G and, S respectively) could fall to B in my opinion. Ho-oh and Lugia both arrive later in the game with a detour involved. Due to their harder catch rate they'll probably won't be realistically obtained until you have access to the Master Ball, which would be after Claire. They both do well in the Elite 4 and can wreak havoc in Kanto; however, Kanto is honestly a very short duration (at least in comparison to the Johto stretch) so their value is a little more deflated.

- This could also be stated somewhat with Suicune... but Suicune does have some leverage (Lance) in the Elite 4 too.

- I placed Magmar in A because, despite having advantages over Cyndaquil, it is also available later in the game. Cyndaquil has a momentum over Magmar with beating Bugsy easily. It can also contribute shenanigans such as Smokescreen versus Whitney - though for that gym I would hope the trainer would just catch a Drowzee and train a Machop. Magmar can become a nuke with Sunny Day + Fire Punch. Sunny Day isn't exactly a heavily fought TM (just other Fire-types with occasional Grass-type for Sunny Day + Solarbeam shenanigans).

- We agreed for the most part that Spearow plays a pivotal road within the game - whether you get Kenya or the early Spearow. Getting the early Spearow means you have a boosted Return that much faster. I think it being A won't create much chaos.

- Nidorans have been oft discussed, and I think it is time to drop them down a tier. In RBY Nidos were very strong because they were available super early and had access to huge grab-bag attacks. Furthermore many Pokemon lacked substantial STABs and the Moon Stone required 0 detours. Having access to stronger elemental attacks (Ice Beam for example) really helped them too. What unfortunately does not help our Nido friends are the following:
-- They are available right around Whitney. Possibly later in some scenarios. Compare this to the RBY where they were available before Brock. Yellow Nidoran could possibly grind for Double Kick - though getting Mankey was likely an easier idea.
-- Nidoking and Nidoqueen cannot be accessed right away like it could in RBY. There is no reason to really delay its evolution back then since Thrash and Body Slam came at Level 23 and Focus Energy didn't work properly beforehand.
-- Nidos had a welcomed type advantage in the Third and even Fourth gym - Lt Surge couldn't really do crap to Nidos and Erika, though it could Mega Drain for neutral damage, still could eat Ice Beams from the Nidos. Even Koga wasn't a huge fan of Nidos since they could have their gravy move, Earthquake, before him (optional detour). Later gym leaders did not appreciate facing Nidos whatsoever.

In this game we have:

-- Morty who hates repeated Mud-Slaps but Hypnosis can really fuck around with the Nidos.
-- Chuck who doesn't completely mind Nidos since Poliwrath has Surf. Primeape is a little annoyed but that's the worst of it.
-- Pryce who has STAB Icy Wind to whittle down the Nidos. Though they have ThunderPunch they probably won't survive a gauntlet round.
-- Claire who has Dragonair with Surf and Kingdra who also has Surf. One of the Dragonair, IIRC, has Ice Beam too. Again another gym Nidos can't really gauntlet.

The closest they could likely take one-on-one is probably Morty but even then that one is a little dicey. In the Elite 4 we're not seeing much progress either:

-- Wil will defeat the Nidos.
-- Koga is the first real huge advantage for the Nidos. They can easily handle anything in here with STAB Earthquake finally obtained.
-- Bruno is a so-so matchup provided they don't face the Machamp and probably the Hitmontop (they have Earthquake and Dig)
-- Karen is another decent matchup.
-- Though I doubt it will OHKO them, Nidos can do well versus Lance.

Once they return to Kanto it's a lot easier for them. They can Earthquake through scrubs like Lt. Surge and Jasmine while using other moves against other trainers. Misty is the only real hard one on Nidos honestly aside from Blue - and Nidos can give Blue a run for his money.

The above was mainly if someone asked "well RBY Nidos were great, why aren't GSC Nidos as great?"

The biggest problems I see with GSC Nidos are as follows:

-- Aside from Mud Slap (a joke at best), they do not receive a STAB until the Elite 4. Compare this to RBY Nidos who could receive Earthquake much sooner (just cheese into Sliph Co ASAP).
-- Though Nidos have basically free access to elemental attacks they are weaker than their counterparts (Ice Punch vs Ice Beam, ThunderPunch vs Thunderbolt) and have an easier time getting Fire Blast (Blaine vs dumping cash for the TM).
-- They do require a somewhat hefty detour to obtain their evolutionary item unless you get lucky with Mom.

-- Gengar could drop to B. It has utility with Hypnosis, but the problem is it cannot attack almost whatsoever until it becomes a Gengar. Gastly has access to absolutely nothing. Your best shenanigans are with Curse, Hypnosis, and Nightmare until you reach Gengar. Once you have Gengar elemental punches help smooth its problem and STAB Shadow Ball makes it at least competent.

That's about all I can think of at the moment. For now (and it will state in the OP) we will focus on discussing S and A Tier. B will come shortly to discuss Mareep and a few others.
 

Xen

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This page suggests that the roaming Pokemon won't flee when asleep in gen 2. Are the other fleeing Pokemon exempt from this?

(I would test this myself but I've just discovered my Silver cart has had its battery run dry for the second time -_-)
-----------------------------------------------
Iirc, they still could. But then again, with the exception of my recent Crystal playthrough (I didn't think about catching a Gastly beforehand and trying Hypnosis on Teddiursa), I haven't played Gen II since like, 2006. So it's possible that I'm remembering wrong. I might test it sometime tomorrow if I can remember to. If they don't flee while asleep, then yeah that would help Crystal Teddiursa out quite a bit.

As far as the Nidos are concerned, I'm kinda on the fence about them (Nidoking at least). They're good once Earthquake becomes available, but I found Nidoking's power to be a little lacking with the elemental punches in some parts of the game (I had issues with KOs with Thunderpunch on that sea route where the Whirl Islands are). One thing about the Nidos that I disliked is they become available at a rather awkward stage in the game. Double Kick can contribute in the fight against Whitney, but the Nidos won't be scoring impressive damage in the match with it. Furthermore, they're complete dead weight against Morty since you still won't have the Moon Stone by then, unless you get lucky with mom. It's not until after Morty when they begin to pick up a little bit from the Moon Stone backtrack and the element punches, and even then they're kinda lacking in power till Earthquake.

I think B is fine for the Nidos. They're not bad, but they really need a nice physical stab earlier. Why they don't get Dig or Sludge Bomb in these games is beyond me...
 

atsync

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I'm just going to comment on everything as best I can.

S Tier:
- Abra (Trade)
- Abra (No Trade)
- Totodile
I think we should keep S-tier and that these should be the only things in it. Sure that would leave us with a small tier but I don't really have an issue with a tier being too big or too small and I don't think we should be trying to meet some size quota. If it ends up containing 2 Pokemon then so be it.

Abra: should be fairly self-explanatory. Super-strong with great coverage, along with strong match-ups against the majority of the Pokemon used by important trainers. Umbreon and Houndoom from Karen are the worst it'll face, but aside from those, Whitney's Miltank, and maybe Clair's Kingdra, it should be fine. It's only flaw is availability: it comes early-mid game but you also have to deal with Teleport.

Totodile: isn't as strong as Abra, or perhaps even some of the A-tiers, but I think that it should get special consideration as a starter and overall it's a well-rounded Pokemon with solid stats, good movepool, and plenty of opportunities to contribute in match-ups.

A Tier:
- Cyndaquil
- Gastly (Trade)
- Geodude (Trade)
- Geodude (No Trade)
- Ho-oh (G)
- Lugia (S)
- Magikarp
- Magmar (GS)
- Miltank
- Nidoran F
- Nidoran M
- Psyduck
- Spearow
- Suicune (C)
- Tauros
- Teddiursa (C)
- Wooper
Cyndaquil: has been discussed to death and I think it should be A-tier. Its movepool is limited and some of its match-ups could be better, but again I think it gets special treatment simply for being a starter, which is important because the starter never has to play catch-up and will NEVER be under-leveled with respect to the rest of the team. It has plenty to contribute early-game despite its poor movepool as Fire is a decent enough typing in certain situations. There really isn't much to say that hasn't been said already.

Gastly (trade): should drop to B-tier I think. Obviously Gengar is great once it reaches that stage, but Gastly is severely let down by its terrible movepool. It's worth noting that Gastly isn't actually "useless" early-game simply because its defensive typing is terrific at that point in the game and lets it win battles by virtue of being resistant/immune to a large amount of the moves being thrown out by foes, but sadly it doesn't help it win battles quickly. Lick is just too weak and the rest of its movepool contains gimmicks, although Night Shade is something of an improvement. At least Curse is helpful against Whitney's Miltank. Evolution at level 25 is a bit late for such a weak attacker too, but sticking with it does pay off.

Geodude: can stay A-tier. This is another one that has been discussed to death and it's among the most useful Pokemon early game, although it's less useful later on in Johto. Geodude has always been a Pokemon of extremes, but it happens to have things set up favourably for it early on in this particular game.

Ho-Oh (Gold): I think this should drop to B-tier simply for its late appearance. I have no doubt that it can make an impact during the few Johto battles it has access to but I don't think its few possible contributions should be ranked on par with Pokemon that are available for the entire game. Catching it is also annoying unless you have the Master Ball, which causes Ho-Oh to miss another gym should you wish to use it.

Lugia (Silver): down to B-tier. See Ho-Oh.

Magikarp: I'm going to assume this is supposed to represent the Red Gyarados. This is something I've always felt a bit borderline on. It does appear somewhat late compared to other stuff and it doesn't have the widest movepool, but I was always impressed by it whenever I used. I think the one thing it has going for it is the fact that it's a mandatory encounter that arrives at a high level to the point that you don't have to grind it at all, and it has way more opportunities to contribute than Lugia/Ho-Oh/Suicune. It also gets STAB Surf right away alongside Thrash. I think its the lack of truly favourable match-ups that hurt it a bit, but it certainly makes for a good route cleaner and can at least contribute in numerous match-ups through its stats and resistances. I'm leaning more towards A-tier mainly because of the lack of time lost by using it, which is its main niche over a lot of the other Water-types available.

Magmar (Gold/Silver): A-tier easily. Its a strong attacker with great coverage, and it is a better battler than Cyndaquil for much of Johto due to its superior movepool. However, it loses to Cyndaquil on availability and misses out on some stuff that Cyndaquil can do (Bugsy and Sprout Tower being the key ones). I still think Magmar is slightly better overall but not enough to justify a tier difference. I also don't think it's quite on par with Abra who has even better match-ups and coverage, although Magmar's match-ups are hardly poor.

Miltank: I holding off on making a decision on this for now and wouldn't mind more discussion about this. I have posted what I think about Miltank and its placement in A-tier before and its something I'm still not sure about - I previously said B-tier. It's not that I have an issue with it being in A-tier so much as I'm not sure whether it should be ranked above some of the other Normal-types. Sure, Miltank has better stats that may come into play in certain match-ups but I don't know if that's really enough to put it above Rattata and Sentret who are available for longer and easier to find (and they have Dig but Miltank is hardly lacking in moves). For me it's a bit like comparing Cyndaquil and Magmar, except that the difference in battling performance is probably even smaller. And yes, I know that Friend Ball is helpful and all but I don't think it's some band-aid solution that makes up for everything. Even if you use time manipulation to get it sooner, you're only getting 1 Friend Ball, and then you have to catch a rare-ish Pokemon with a relatively low catch rate using the equivalent of 1 regular Poke Ball - if you get unlucky you have to reset and try again.

Nidoran-F: Posted about this before. I lean towards B-tier because its obtained a little bit later than ideal, it's a bit of a hassle to evolve it, and lacks a good STAB move for too long. It's still a solid Pokemon that evolves relatively early and has excellent coverage, contributing in many match-ups and on route, but it falls a bit short occasionally and I don't think it's quite good enough for A-tier.

Nidoran-M: See Nidoran-F. B-tier.

Psyduck: Can stay in A-tier, as long as the eventual write-up for Psyduck makes sure to emphasize that it's wild caught Route 35 Golduck that is A-tier. Catching a Psyduck and leveling it up generally isn't worth it since it evolves late and is a bit weak, but skipping that and going straight for Golduck fixes that up somewhat.

Spearow: A-tier. I would argue it's the best Normal-type in the game when taking every criterion into consideration: early availability, good stat distribution and good STAB options. Main thing that lets it down is a lack of coverage outside of its STAB so it gets walled by the occasion Rock- and Steel-type and needs a team mate to cover those. It doesn't have a huge number of favourable match-ups either but it can contribute in a number of them.

Suicune (Crystal): I think this should drop to B-tier too. I don't think this should get special treatment compared to Lugia and Ho-Oh. I guess it does well against Lance with Water/Ice coverage, but I don't think that's quite enough to maks up for its lateness. B-tier is sufficient as far as I'm concerned.

Tauros: Pretty much everything I've said for Miltank can apply for Tauros as well. Except it has a worse movepool.

Teddiursa (Crystal): The only significant issue with Teddiursa is actually obtaining it. It's encounter-able very early but it's rare and has that frustrating 50% flee chance. Otherwise it is amazing, with well-balanced stats and a huge movepool that gives it great match-ups across the board. It's just...so hard to catch. Whether it ends up in A-tier or B-tier basically comes down you want to penalize it for that. I personally lean towards A-tier since I think what it brings to a team is simply that good - for what it's worth, I think Teddiursa would be an easy S-tier if it were as easily obtained as Rattata.

Wooper: A-tier. It's the best Water-type outside of Totodile. Obtained early with a quick evolution, great typing and STABs, as well as powerful moves learned relatively early, including a nice STAB Earthquake in the 30s (although admittedly that occurs when much of Johto is done). It is perhaps a bit underwhelming earlier on since its moves are rather weak but it still has Union Cave for a freebie.
 
I think everyone is forgetting how early Teddiursa appears. Before the first Gym, with potentially more early catches like Geodude.

What I'm getting at is that while the whole Fleeing business, specific time of day and rarity are huge problems that certainly do a number on Teddiursa's viability, the Catch Rate is more important.

We're talking about a pokémon that can instantly flee as it wakes up against another that can't do any damage whatsoever to help catching it and at a time that the player has limited resources and the worst kind of pokéballs.
That means that we're counting on many variables beyond our control.
(Hypnosis hitting, Teddiursa sleeping enough for the player to switch, attack and catch with the first ball before Teddiursa wakes up and flees.)

With that said, despite the great power Teddiursa has, it's also very slow and that can give problems against things like Falkner's Mud Slap, Random Grunt's Supersonic and other disruptive moves like that.
It's also fair to mention that the Speed factor is one of the key points that hold Golem out of the S tier.

Therefore, my opinion is that Teddiursa should be at the B tier.


The early Spearow is probably good enough for A, but I should mention that Falkner's Pidgeotto will most likely wreck it if it outspeeds it, so a bit of overgrinding via Sprout Tower might be necessary for it to keep up, but that causes problems for Cyndaquil players. It's also kind of underwhelming until it evolves damage-wise. Afterwards it's great until the very end, even though Drill Peck takes forever to appear. It's probably also one of the best partners for Chikorita if you made the mistake to take it like me for whatever reason.

Tauros is stupid good, even without the early Return Nuke via Friend Ball. It's so fast and strong that Headbutt should either kill or Flinch most things it hits, unfortunately it's caught in a time that all gym battle are unfavorable to it. (Morty, Chuck and Jasmine) So A could be fine for it.
 

Colonel M

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Though the capture rate is shaky (due to potential fleeing) there are alternatives to force the Teddiursa to stick around. If you waited a little while you could get the Gastly to get Mean Look I guess. But alas - in the event you probably can get it after the first gym without -too- many issues. And being honest - Teddiursa is really strong in Crystal and it does do tremendous damage once you get it.

Tauros is just really strong. You have Stomp and Headbutt that you can abuse until you get Return souped up. It's really strong and fast. Same with Miltank to an extent. I could see the doubts I guess.
 
Another thing that I remembered is how bad of a detour it is to catch Lugia compared to Ho-Oh.
While both are pretty good, Ho-oh just requires flying to Ecruteak packing the Rainbow Wing, climbing an annoying but simple maze, and catching Ho-Oh.

Meanwhile, Lugia requires flying to Cianwood, then packing almost all HM's and navigating an infuriating puzzle in the Whirl Islands with the Silver Wing and then catching Lugia, who doesn't even have the same utility as Ho-Oh in terms of major battles. (But that's kind of pointless.)

Since we're talking efficiency here, I'd kick Lugia to C if Ho-Oh is at B. And I personally think that the B tier is getting a bit out of hand, but let's hold off discussion on that until we settle the S and A tiers, otherwise, we'll be here forever.

Now speaking of A tiers... Two mons kind of stick out in my opinion. Magikarp and Gastly (Trade).

Training Magikarp to level 20 in Johto is borderline maddening, if you catch it early, it will basically sandbag your team until Whitney at best.
If you catch it later, it's much more viable going straight to the Red Gyarados after getting Surf since it's not even that much of a detour and the Red Gyarados can at least wall Chuck's Poliwrath and get some good damage against Jasmine's Steelix and more importantly, it comes at a good level. So if a player really needs a Gyarados, it should be the Red one.

Oddly enough, there's no separate entry for Red Gyarados in the list. I'd vote B for it and D for Magikarp though.

Meanwhile, Gengar is amazing. Gastly is not even close.
The common player has 2 places to catch a Gastly: Sprout Tower early in the game and Burnt Tower right before Morty.

In Sprout Tower, the player gets crazy trying to train something with an amazing move with incredible 30 Base Power factoring Stab coming off Gastly's almost non-existant Attack that doesn't work on Normal-types. (Read: the most common type in every early game.) Gastly learns no offensive moves at all until it can get Shadow Ball and the elemental punches.
The best thing it can try to do is Hypnosis, which doesn't really help regarding damage until you get the Nightmare TM,(Backtrack required.) and Curse, which involves trying to get Gastly to tank a hit with at best 50% HP and surviving to get the Exp and a healing item to continue with the Lick spam. That has to work until Lv.21, when it finally learns Night Shade and can be somewhat reasonable.

In Burnt Tower, it comes in underleveled, possibly without Hypnosis, and can't even hope to contribute against Morty. The player has to endure the same suffering, even though it ends quicker. Still 10 levels of nothing but Shadow Ball at best, and that is after beating Morty. Not to mention that a surprising amount of things around Olivine pack a Normal or Ghost resisting type. That includes all of the wild pokémons in the route between Ecruteak and Olivine.

While Gengar is definitely worth catching a Gastly and training it, it's not viable to train the Sprout Tower variant and even the Burnt Tower variant has to be evolved soon to make it worth it. Gengar's great though, so I vote it for B.

The only mon that I can think right now that should be A is Mareep. Ampharos is a very solid electric type, it's easy to train, relatively bulky, can be caught early, and has access to Fire Punch for coverage. It also learns Thunder Wave naturally, which not only mitigates its Speed problem, but also helps with catching and fighting dangerous things like Whitney's Miltank and Morty's Gengar. Thunderpunch is very reliable until you have the money to upgrade to Thunderbolt or Thunder, and Paraflinch using Headbutt and Thunder Wave is pretty nice to have for backup.

Warning: Wall of text above.
 
Abra and Totodile are obvious S so I'll just skip straight to the A ranks.

Cyndaquil / Magmar: They have pretty similar match-ups in the entire game. Cyndaquil is a starter so it is available for most fights and is probably never underlevelled. However, it has a "sucky" period as Quilava because it is stuck with Ember until Lv31. Lack of Thunder Punch access until Typlosion also sucks. Magmar never faces this kind of problems. However, it has slightly worse stats and come a bit later. Therefore, both should be in similar ranks (A)

Gastly (Trade) : On paper, it is godly but Gastly really sucks in practice since you really need it as a Gengar to do anything. This means you have to baby it until Lv25, which, in GSC, means about halfway through the game. Gengar is great in-game so I'll just give it a pass.

Geodude (Trade): Available early. Great match-ups and having nice STAB moves at low levels means Geodude is probably one of the best mons to cheese through the early game. However, it's slow and late-game performance means it is not good enough for S. However, Rock / Ground is stupidly good in this game, especially early on. Solid A.

Ho-oh (G) / Lugia (S) / Suicune (C): It comes after Gym 7 but it is higher leveled than your party with better stats too. Can easily cheese through the entire game with the right moves and is bulky enough to take hits if you need it to. The detour to catch them and their low catch rate is bad but it is worth it because of their good match-ups later on. I'll call A but if it's 3 advantages are regarded as too significant, I wouldn't be opposed to B.

Magikarp / Gyarados: Solid A. High Attack stat, Surf access, HM utility and comes at a high level with great stats.

Miltank / Tauros: Normals are great in this game, especially with Strength access and the Return TM. Plus, they have a great movepool and stats to use them. However, their match-up isn't great since the next two Gyms are Chuck and Jasmine. They also struggle against Pryce's bulky Dewgong and Mamoswine while also hates getting paralyzed by Clair's Dragonair. Kingdra can also OHKO them with Hyper Beam.

Spearow : Solid Pokemon. Early availability. Normal-type. Good enough Attack stat. easy A.

Teddiursa (C) : It is strong but I really really hate fleeing Pokemon. Plus, low encounter rate. Other than that, it cheeses the game.
 

Colonel M

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Seems like we are questioning Miltank and Tauros but I don't think it is a bad thing to think if it is B or A. Ill let discussion continue on that.

Seems so far people generally agree on the following:

- Abra and Totodile remain S. Okay with that.
- Gastly Trade to B. Also in agreement.
- Nidorans feel B. Good to know.

Some disparity seems to come from:

- Where to put Lugia / Ho-oh / Suicune
- Miltank / Tauros
- Teddiursa (C) (whether A or B)

By the way Magikarp's ranking is based off of Red Gyarados. If people want I can separate it but I don't see the point to it honestly.
 
Considering I solo'ed the game with Teddi, and the ONLY issue is getting it (let's even ignore Hypnosis for a second) and the possibility of getting it before the 1. Badge makes it a clear A to me
 

DHR-107

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Considering I solo'ed the game with Teddi, and the ONLY issue is getting it (let's even ignore Hypnosis for a second) and the possibility of getting it before the 1. Badge makes it a clear A to me
Yeah but you can solo the game with a lot of Pokemon if that's the only Pokemon you use... Totodile does the same thing.
 
And at which rank is Todotile ;)
You can't argue with that logic. I agree Teddiursa to A, imo it fights with Spearow for best normal type pokemon.

Speaking of normal types, I think Pidgey should ascend from C to B. Reason being that it has the same match-ups, type, availability and moves as Spearow only with less attack and speed, his final evolution comes later and no drill peck, but we have fly, and these reason shouldn't be enough to keep him 2 tiers below a pokemon so similar to him.
 

Punchshroom

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Totodile is a free gift, whilst getting your hands on a Teddiursa is horrendously tricky and/or time-consuming.

I reckon if you were to start your game anew and hunt for Teddiursa again, your second attempt won't go nearly as smoothly.
 

DHR-107

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And at which rank is Todotile ;)
Okay, Horrible example... Rattata or Sentret can probably do something similar if all the XP from the entire game is going straight to them. The only gym leaders they might struggle with are Morty and Jasmine, and that's it. Hell, Raticate get's dig from the national park, so even they are rendered pretty easy.
 

Its_A_Random

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Who cares if a Pokémon can successfully solo run the game? A solo run is arbitrarily outside the scope of this tier list (and any other tier list) and henceforth it does not matter. Of course you are going to be soloing things a lot easier when you are overleveled. Before we should consider moving it up to A, we should see first how well Crystal Teddiursa would perform when the player is raising at least three or more Pokémon equally (assuming three is the minimum like in other tier lists).

No offence but the notion that it should rise to A on the basis of solo running the game is poor especially given that iirc, solo runs are not considered in this tier list. If it can do something similar with little item reliance in a larger party of trained Pokémon (preferrably at like levels to the opposition and not a few levels above like the solo run showed), then maybe it should go up.
 
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