Metagame Godly Gift

[risingstar20]

'If you want to nominate a Pokémon for a promotion, demotion, or appearance on the VR, please give a good explanation to support your reasoning. Calcs and replays are always beneficial.[/quote]'

Ok so I think Rampardos should be better than a mere B grade. With great attack stats further boosted when Choice Band is used and speed that would make High King Arceus jealous thanks to donation from Deoxys-Attack, it's incredibly useful as a late-game sweeper. In fact, it can OHKO any Pokemon in the S and A* ranks.

 

[raddaya]

The case of Mega-Sableye is pretty simple. We made a suspect, and the rule was easy, we could vote if we has more than 77 %, so the people who voted knew very well this metagame. I know very well this metagame and I judge that none mons deserve to be ban. It's my opinion. It's not a " skewed " vote . I'm against pre-ban of Toxapex but I understand why he is banned and I never speak about Toxapex anymore.

I look your argumentation for the ban of M-Sableye and I consider your argument. But your vote doesn't matter because you don't have more than 77%.
The men who knew very well this tier decided not to ban M-Sableye with DEMOCRATY. So this whole Mega Sableye deal IS cleared up .

No. It's not. When the guy who runs the entirety of PS shows up to tell you your suspect test was terrible, that's a pretty good indication the decision wasn't made with "DEMOCRATY."

 

[Champion Leon]

'If you want to nominate a Pokémon for a promotion, demotion, or appearance on the VR, please give a good explanation to support your reasoning. Calcs and replays are always beneficial.

I nominate Snorlax to B- Rank.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7godlygift-100238
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7godlygift-100253
Here is a perfect example of why Snorlax is a premier threat in this metagame, 1HKOing most of the metagame.

With a set like:
Snorlax @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Gluttony
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Earthquake
- Return
- Crunch / Fire Punch

Snorlax can take Deoxys-Attack for it's Speed and start sweeping. The key is Gluttony activates Aguav Berry at the 50% HP mark, healing back all of Snorlax's HP, allowing it to start sweeping at 438 Speed, as long as it can survive at least 1 hit.

Basically Snorlax only requires 1 turn of set-up to acheive 1,248 Attack and sweep! (Not bad for a Pokemon not even mentioned in the Viability Rankings).

(If you are concenred with Speed Tieing with other Deoxys-Attack users on the Speed stat, you can use Deoxys-S, since you are only getting the Speed boost- not that Deoxys-S is better for anything else really, but hey it has a niche to at least make Snorlax good). Using Psychic Terrain on your team to prevent priority, and using Sticky Web to prevent Scarfers from outspeeding you will help immensely- or you can just send Snorlax in mid-game like I did when they are already defeated, and then set-up/sweep..

Shuckle is 2HKOed by Earthquake, and Skarmary/Celesteelia are handled with Fire Punch (or Earthquake on Skarmary using Roost), Crunch is for Pokemon like Giratina.
-------------------------------
Alternatively, I have used Snorlax in the Defense slot on a Shuckle team with Curse and Recycle over Belly Drum and Earthquake to great success; replay below:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/rom-gen7godlygift-100247
Snorlax @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Gluttony
EVs: 122 HP / 128 Atk / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Curse
- Recycle
- Body Slam
- Crunch

You can see how Snorlax only took about 50% from Keldeo's Close Combat, and since Berries activate immediately, Snorlax was back to near full HP by the time it used Curse, effectively using Recover and Curse in 1 turn. Recycle makes up for Recover.

I found using a +Def nature works just fine, and you can put the rest into HP and Attack to boost up its survival from both sides at 491 HP and 288 Attack, which gives it the offensive presence to only need 1-2 Curses before tearing even teams apart for 1-2HKOs such as Solgaleo.

Now keep in mind: 252 Defense EVs without a Nature yields 559 Defense, using a + Nature without any EVs yields 545 Defense. Combine 545 Defense with Snorlax's 491 HP, and 319 Special Defense, and you have yourself a premier bulk offense: AKA The Heavy Hitter.

For those concerned about Knock Off on the Aguav Berry, just use Recycle when you are already below 50%, that way the item is consumed immediately, and they cannot stop you from recovering with Recycle. You can see me not use Recycle in the last few turns, until I was under 50%, so that way my items didn't get removed, and I was able to stall.
----
P.S. Shuckle Defense to Max Defense + Nature Fur Coat Persian/Furfrou is 1228 Defense, and Shuckle Special Defense to Max Special Defense + Nature Sandstream Tyranitar with Assault Vest is 1381 Special Defense with 0 stat boosts!

 

[Stall is coming]

I have a little queston for you ScarfWynaut and raddaya .

If the suspect test had only 5 voters. 1 against ban and 4 for ban of M-Sableye. So M-Sableye is ban. Now, you're going to do the opposite of your comment and you'll say that M-Sableye doesn't deserve to be banned ?

When I see the ridiculous number of voters, I decided to have more than 77% to can vote and increase the number of voters .

When I see the politic of suspect and ban of SMOGON, I see a two-tier justice . Toxapex is Quick-ban and Deoxys-A deserves a suspect. I understand the arguments of iLlama, but I find it Unfair .

For finish, once, I watched a battle of Godly Gift, and a player had MSS in her name. The other player said :
" Do you want ban M-Sableye ? "
" Yes "
" Then, I'll forfeit "

 

[Isa Simple]

There hasn't really been much discussion on the VRs, particularly Gods Only, so how about we touch on that for a moment.

I don't really have any questions for the top ranks, but I think that there are some things worth asking about regarding B and C.

For starters, I think that if Dialga and Palkia are going to sit in B, it only makes sense for Reshiram to be in there too. I mean as stat donors they're all practically the same, with Dialga and Reshiram switching just Def and SpD, and Palkia having 10 more Spe than Reshiram at the cost of 10 HP. Plus whatever niche in the meta you define for Palkia and Dialga, I'm sure Reshiram's is just as good. Reshiram's typing and stats let it defensively check a bunch of pokemon uninvested. In particular being an awesome counter to Serperior and Tapu Koko, two of the most dangerous SpA receivers, as well as Spe Magearna. Reshiram is also a powerhouse offensively, and has another niche in being able to find room to chuck a cheeky Toxic on Mega Sableye. So I believe that it's fair for Reshiram to move up to B, alongside Palkia and Dialga.
With that said though, Palkia doesn't seem to have the same defensive utility as Dialga and Reshiram at a glance, so unless it has a strong niche that someone can point out to me, perhaps Palkia and Reshiram should swap ranks.

Another God I think should rise is Solgaleo. Solgaleo's spread is actually awesome for balanced builds and is a bit under appreciated in my opinion. To my experience some of the most common "go to" Gods for balance teams seem to be Giratina-O, Ho-Oh, and Groudon. All three of these are A vs Solgaleo's C rank, when comparatively Solgaleo isn't that bad. I mean look at the stats comparison between Solgaleo and Ho-Oh, sure Ho-Oh has way more SpD, but outside of that all of Solgaleo's stats are higher. Where as Groudon and Giratina-O each have as many stats up on Solgaleo as he does on them, with the highest deviation in favour of the A ranks being Groudon's 33 extra defence, and Giratina's 13 extra HP. Though Solgaleo has 37 more HP than Groudon, and 17 more Atk than Giratina-O. So the point is, Solgaleo's stat spread is severely underrated. Solgaleo's HP and Atk in particular are among the best. What's more is that Solgaleo itself is no under performer as a stand alone mon in the meta either. Admittedly it's not as dominating as other Gods such as Primal Groudon, but to my experience it always plays a solid role in checking a plethora of threats that balance teams often struggle against, greatly softening the match ups against Xerneas, Deoxys, Tapu Lele, Swellow, Clefable, Serperior, Magearna, and more. Hence I think that at the very least, Solgaleo is a step above the other pokemon in C and should be bumped up.

I've used Reshiram and Solgaleo each a decent amount, as well as many of the other popular Gods, but the next things I haven't really used or seen so please enlighten me if I'm missing something.

Yveltal doesn't seem too awesome, and I'm wondering if it could drop to C. I mean at 126/131/95/131/98/99 you've got 3 good stats and 3 usable stats. Strong HP and good mixed offences are cool and all, but there are a bunch of pokemon with strong mixed offences to donate, and 131 is barely stronger than standard OU. I just don't understand why I would want to use Yveltal over something like Kyurem-W (who is currently in the same rank), who's stats are almost identical outside of sacrificing around 10 Atk for nearly 40 extra SpA. Or Rayquazza, who admittedly sacrifices a bit more bulk, especially in HP, but has 19 extra points in each offence. It just seems to me that unless someone can point out a substantial niche that Yveltal has as a stand alone mon, it doesn't have much value as a God.

Next. Aegislash. What does this even do? I mean you have 150 Def and SpD then 4 dead stats. So it seems an Aegislash team is basically a Shuckle team where you're two powerhouses are only 65% as strong as Shuckle's, but you have an Aegislash. I mean is that actually good or is it outclassed by Shuckle? Is it worthy of being in C or does it belong in Ubers you should not run? I've never seen it someone please help me.

Also just one more point of discussion. With the Deoxys-A suspect going on, do you expect much of an increase in things like Pheromosa, Deoxys, and Hoopa-U, or are they all mainly outclassed by Rayquazza? Also will Kyurem-W perhaps see a rise in usage and viability with it's 170 SpA no longer rivalled by Deoxys-A?

Tl;Dr
Reshiram C -> B
Palkia B -> C?
Solgaleo C -> B
Yveltal B -> C?
Aegislash C -> Do not use?
Deoxys A replacements?

 

[RyanGosling]

I never really used Aegislash as a god because I don't find him interesting at all but you should note that Aegislash's good defensive typing gives him a lot of great resistances: Dragon, Fairy, Grass, Normal (still resists Scrappy Boomburst), Psychic, Rock, Ice, Flying and good immunities to Toxic and Fighting attacks when Shuckle's resistances are the uncommon Normal type and Poison type which barely exists outside of some coverage moves. Besides Aegislash still has a great offensive presence with Deoxys-A base stats while Shuckle is nothing more than a sitting duck.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

So I see that the Mega Sableye suspect doesn't really reflect the community's opinion due to questionable arguments and only having a small number of elligible votes because of ridiculously high requirement (seriously, not even your council members get reqs, even though I actually see them laddering and they aren't bad themselves).

iLlama, instead of going along with it and being continously pressured by people due to bad management, my suggestion to solve this is redo the Mega Sableye suspect test, along with the suspect of Deoxys-A. I mean, suspect both at once, this time, with the same GXE that's reasonable enough for a number of people to achieve. It doesn't have to be now because TI orders it, but I really, REALLY want you to consider this because I see that many of the people in our community finds the suspect process unacceptable. It's NOT the result that's the problem, but the fact that the suspect doesn't reflect the community's opinion IS the problem.

Or, if you feel you can't do a suspect test that's decent enough to reflect the opinion from people that's actually playing the meta, decide by yourself or do a council vote. Either way, even though I'm fine with it, many of us are not happy with the previous suspect process due to reasons above and many of us do NOT want you to just go along with it and use the current result. So I strongly suggest you to do something about this.

 

[iLlama]

iLlama, instead of going along with it and being continously pressured by people due to bad management, my suggestion to solve this is redo the Mega Sableye suspect test, along with the suspect of Deoxys-A. I mean, suspect both at once, this time, with the same GXE that's reasonable enough for a number of people to achieve. It doesn't have to be now because TI orders it, but I really, REALLY want you to consider this because I see that many of the people in our community finds the suspect process unacceptable. It's NOT the result that's the problem, but the fact that the suspect doesn't reflect the community's opinion IS the problem.

This is a great suggestion and I don't see any issues with it as it basically solves any problems we're having from the mess that was the first rendition of this suspect test.

Deoxys-A and Mega Sableye are being suspected.​

I feel I should preface this suspect explaining why this test is occurring, because Deoxys-A is not inherently broken itself. There are Pokemon within Godly Gift that can handle it 1v1 and it sets are pretty predictable with only about 7 moves that it generally could carry. However, the distribution of 180 attack stats and a 150 speed stat gives Deoxys-A teams an incredible amount of flexibility in team compositions and in addressing various matchups. The amount of Pokemon that can utilize these stats is so far and wide that for the most part, Deoxys-A teams simply cannot be reasonably prepared for. This style of HO also put pressure on players to choose whether or not they too want to run a hyper offensive build or if they want to run something much more defensive that can take this incredible force head on.

As with last generation, Mega Sableye yet again constrains teambuilding thanks to a combination of insane bulk with boosted HP and a wide variety of moveset options that realistically cannot be prepared for. Since the banning of Toxapex, Mega Sableye is now, without a doubt, one of the best, if not the best Pokémon to give the HP stat to. A high boosted HP stat creates a Pokémon that is incredibly difficult to take down outside of Fairy-types, highly specialized stallbreakers, and insane physical or special wallbreakers. The difficulty in managing this Pokémon truly comes out when facing very defensive team builds or stall, where Mega Sableye has such great team support that it realistically has little to no unfavorable matchups.

How to vote:

• Create a fresh alt with DSS (Deoxys Sablenite Suspect) in the name
• Have at least 20 battles on the account
• Have a GXE of at least 72
• Vote BAN, DO NOT BAN, or ABSTAIN
• Explain your reasoning with a short paragraph

Deoxys-A and Mega Sableye will be banned during the suspect. This suspect will end on Sunday, June 18, at approximately 11:59 P.M. EDT.

Toxapex is still quick-banned as it does not correlate to the suspect tests.
The Immortal

 

[Steveo]

There is a bug in my battle tapu lele died brought psychic terrain then my opponent switches into mimkyou and uses shadow sneak while there is psychic terrain here is the link:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7godlygift-589778901 it happens on turns 9 and 10

 

[DrPumpkinz]

There is a bug in my battle tapu lele died brought psychic terrain then my opponent switches into mimkyou and uses shadow sneak while there is psychic terrain here is the link:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7godlygift-589778901 it happens on turns 9 and 10

Psychic Terrain only protects grounded Pokemon from priority moves. Celesteela is a Flying type, so it is still vulnerable to priority.

 

[Aman Indra]

Umm am i missing something but Deo-a is still legal on the ladder ?

 

[Yoavgreninja]

Umm am i missing something but Deo-a is still legal on the ladder ?

IIRC, not all suspect tests have their suspected mon(s) being banned, for example: The Skymin suspect test in MnM-it was legal in its suspect test (Even though I didn't get to know the results yet Lol).

 

[iLlama]

Umm am i missing something but Deo-a is still legal on the ladder ?

IIRC, not all suspect tests have their suspected mon(s) being banned, for example: The Skymin suspect test in MnM-it was legal in its suspect test (Even though I didn't get to know the results yet Lol).

The coding for the suspect ladder has not been implemented yet, so please be patient.

 

[Pipotchi]

Another Do Not Ban, but this time the post begins with stating that Deoxys-Attack is legal, therefore Mega Sableye ought to remain, as they believe the two Pokemon are equally as overpowered. As many in this thread have reiterated, this method of reasoning is flawed as it again fails to answer the question of "Is Mega Sableye broken or not?". If they perceive Deoxys-Attack to be overpowered, that is an entirely different matter and should not sway their opinion on this unrelated situation. However, to give user pip credit, they do go in-depth and describe why he think Mega Sableye is fine thanks to the multitude of new Fairy types introduced that can beat it up, but the TL;DR makes me believe that the one driving force behind their decision is Deoxys and how teams fueled by it check Sableye, despite them considering the former broken

Ill just clarify my thoughts that I dont think I expressed correctly in the last post. I think Deoxys-A is by all means "fine" in the metagame. Its very centralizing and also very popular, but this isnt cause for a ban. I asked early on in the thread for Deoxys-A to get banned in order to create a healthy and more creative metagame where people would have to utilize more gods, but as far as balance goes I dont believe it needs to be removed- its not the strongest individual god pokemon available in the tier and while not incredibly problematic, it does create a weak hp and defense slot that needs to be catered for. Like I said before, I think Deoxys-A teams are an excellent answer to Mega Sableye. Maybe I can rephrase this and say that teams that involve an incredibly powerful triple wallbreaker core are usually able to bust through both Mega Sableye plus stall when played correctly, due to the vast number of different pokemon that these wallbreakers can be- stall cant deal with all of them. Sableye relies on raw stats and a lack of weaknesses, but also suffers a lack of resistances. Most mons that inherit a 150 offense stat from a god will stand a chance at breaking Sableye provided they are not Smeargle, who is the only one that relies entirely on a STAB that Sableye can handle- this puts it under a lot of pressure. Right now, the best example of these triple wallbreaker cores is Deoxys teams- which should also be mentioned as being the most popular type of team in the metagame right now. This hyper offensive meta, paired with the increased number of viable fairies, paired with the fact that Mega Sableye can't run all of its desired options at once, led me to believe it could be fine for the tier. Im not trying to justify broken with broken. I think Deoxys is fine and that the most common playstyle checks Sableye in a way that prevents it from totally dominating the tier, at this current time. Mega Sableye is probably the best pokemon in the tier. Does that mean it needs to go? I wasnt totally convinced, so I voted no ban.

Here are some mons that can handle Mega Sableye (assuming 120hp- I am not sure if giratina/sableye is really a good stall combination considering the lack of synergy):

All CM Arceus formes
Primal Kyogre
Primal Groudon
Xerneas
CB Ho-oh
Rain + Sun teams in general
Victini
Clefable
Tapu Koko
Tapu Fini
Comfey
Mimikyu
Tapu Lele
SpA Tapu Bulu
Magearna
Volcarona
Taunt Mega Gyarados
Scrappy Pangoro
Cresselia + many other CM pokemon
Swellow
Serperior
Nidos
Marowak-A
Buzzwole + sub dark resist pokemon
Araquanid
Guts Heracross

Bolded can switch into Mega Sableye also. Knock Off vs Foul Play also limits its ability to check physical and special threats at the same time, assuming it is running wisp + recover and a way to mega evolve safely. Even with magic bounce it wont be immune to passive damage also. Muk-A is annoying for stall this gen as well thanks to its pursuit and ability to spread poison with ease, which will cause problems to Mega Sableye as a poison type "counter".
Maybe the key issue with Sableye is that only a few key pokemon out of the ones that can break it can also set hazards. But Im not sure.

I would like Deoxys to leave the tier. But I cant justify it through anything apart from making the tier more creative. I am gunna leave this thread alone now :|

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

Ill just clarify my thoughts that I dont think I expressed correctly in the last post. I think Deoxys-A is by all means "fine" in the metagame. Its very centralizing and also very popular, but this isnt cause for a ban. I asked early on in the thread for Deoxys-A to get banned in order to create a healthy and more creative metagame where people would have to utilize more gods, but as far as balance goes I dont believe it needs to be removed- its not the strongest individual god pokemon available in the tier and while not incredibly problematic, it does create a weak hp and defense slot that needs to be catered for. Like I said before, I think Deoxys-A teams are an excellent answer to Mega Sableye. Maybe I can rephrase this and say that teams that involve an incredibly powerful triple wallbreaker core are usually able to bust through both Mega Sableye plus stall when played correctly, due to the vast number of different pokemon that these wallbreakers can be- stall cant deal with all of them. Sableye relies on raw stats and a lack of weaknesses, but also suffers a lack of resistances. Most mons that inherit a 150 offense stat from a god will stand a chance at breaking Sableye provided they are not Smeargle, who is the only one that relies entirely on a STAB that Sableye can handle- this puts it under a lot of pressure. Right now, the best example of these triple wallbreaker cores is Deoxys teams- which should also be mentioned as being the most popular type of team in the metagame right now. This hyper offensive meta, paired with the increased number of viable fairies, paired with the fact that Mega Sableye can't run all of its desired options at once, led me to believe it could be fine for the tier. Im not trying to justify broken with broken. I think Deoxys is fine and that the most common playstyle checks Sableye in a way that prevents it from totally dominating the tier, at this current time. Mega Sableye is probably the best pokemon in the tier. Does that mean it needs to go? I wasnt totally convinced, so I voted no ban.

Here are some mons that can handle Mega Sableye (assuming 120hp- I am not sure if giratina/sableye is really a good stall combination considering the lack of synergy):

All CM Arceus formes
Primal Kyogre
Primal Groudon
Xerneas
CB Ho-oh
Rain + Sun teams in general
Victini
Clefable
Tapu Koko
Tapu Fini
Comfey
Mimikyu
Tapu Lele
SpA Tapu Bulu
Magearna
Volcarona
Taunt Mega Gyarados
Scrappy Pangoro
Cresselia + many other CM pokemon
Swellow
Serperior
Nidos
Marowak-A
Buzzwole + sub dark resist pokemon
Araquanid
Guts Heracross

Bolded can switch into Mega Sableye also. Knock Off vs Foul Play also limits its ability to check physical and special threats at the same time, assuming it is running wisp + recover and a way to mega evolve safely. Even with magic bounce it wont be immune to passive damage also. Muk-A is annoying for stall this gen as well thanks to its pursuit and ability to spread poison with ease, which will cause problems to Mega Sableye as a poison type "counter".

I would like Deoxys to leave the tier. But I cant justify it through anything apart from making the tier more creative. I am gunna leave this thread alone now :|

For the record, Giratina+sableye is totally a good stall combo. Its already used in AG/ubers without the increased ag buff. Arceus sableye squads are probably also viable (esp with good arc forms like steel and ground), but tina+sableye is also totally fine.

 

[EchoGaia]

Then form a council, or just make the decision yourself. Don't run a half-assed suspect tes

There is a bug in my battle tapu lele died brought psychic terrain then my opponent switches into mimkyou and uses shadow sneak while there is psychic terrain here is the link:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7godlygift-589778901 it happens on turns 9 and 10

Flying types aren't affected by Psychic Terrain, which means they can still be hit by priority moves.

 

[EchoGaia]

Ill just clarify my thoughts that I dont think I expressed correctly in the last post. I think Deoxys-A is by all means "fine" in the metagame. Its very centralizing and also very popular, but this isnt cause for a ban. I asked early on in the thread for Deoxys-A to get banned in order to create a healthy and more creative metagame where people would have to utilize more gods, but as far as balance goes I dont believe it needs to be removed- its not the strongest individual god pokemon available in the tier and while not incredibly problematic, it does create a weak hp and defense slot that needs to be catered for. Like I said before, I think Deoxys-A teams are an excellent answer to Mega Sableye. Maybe I can rephrase this and say that teams that involve an incredibly powerful triple wallbreaker core are usually able to bust through both Mega Sableye plus stall when played correctly, due to the vast number of different pokemon that these wallbreakers can be- stall cant deal with all of them. Sableye relies on raw stats and a lack of weaknesses, but also suffers a lack of resistances. Most mons that inherit a 150 offense stat from a god will stand a chance at breaking Sableye provided they are not Smeargle, who is the only one that relies entirely on a STAB that Sableye can handle- this puts it under a lot of pressure. Right now, the best example of these triple wallbreaker cores is Deoxys teams- which should also be mentioned as being the most popular type of team in the metagame right now. This hyper offensive meta, paired with the increased number of viable fairies, paired with the fact that Mega Sableye can't run all of its desired options at once, led me to believe it could be fine for the tier. Im not trying to justify broken with broken. I think Deoxys is fine and that the most common playstyle checks Sableye in a way that prevents it from totally dominating the tier, at this current time. Mega Sableye is probably the best pokemon in the tier. Does that mean it needs to go? I wasnt totally convinced, so I voted no ban.

Here are some mons that can handle Mega Sableye (assuming 120hp- I am not sure if giratina/sableye is really a good stall combination considering the lack of synergy):

All CM Arceus formes
Primal Kyogre
Primal Groudon
Xerneas
CB Ho-oh
Rain + Sun teams in general
Victini
Clefable
Tapu Koko
Tapu Fini
Comfey
Mimikyu
Tapu Lele
SpA Tapu Bulu
Magearna
Volcarona
Taunt Mega Gyarados
Scrappy Pangoro
Cresselia + many other CM pokemon
Swellow
Serperior
Nidos
Marowak-A
Buzzwole + sub dark resist pokemon
Araquanid
Guts Heracross

Bolded can switch into Mega Sableye also. Knock Off vs Foul Play also limits its ability to check physical and special threats at the same time, assuming it is running wisp + recover and a way to mega evolve safely. Even with magic bounce it wont be immune to passive damage also. Muk-A is annoying for stall this gen as well thanks to its pursuit and ability to spread poison with ease, which will cause problems to Mega Sableye as a poison type "counter".
Maybe the key issue with Sableye is that only a few key pokemon out of the ones that can break it can also set hazards. But Im not sure.

I would like Deoxys to leave the tier. But I cant justify it through anything apart from making the tier more creative. I am gunna leave this thread alone now :|

Outside of Fairy types and Cm users (which always win vs Mega sableye unless it carries Taunt) most Pokemon that can 2HKO Mega Sableye must be wary of being hit by Metal Burst, which usually OHKOes them back. And if you get Metal Bursted and Sableye can recover its health while you had only one check, it can win stand alone.

Ofc Mega Sableye isn't broken with its standard set, but that's the problem, Mega sableye in Godly Gift doesn't run the standard set it runs in OU or Ubers. Due to the boosted HP, Metal Burst becomes a threat and gives Mega Sableye offensive presence. That's what makes it broken, alongside its utility and Magic Bounce.

 

[Mariokartana]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the thing I'm confused about in this is... does the inherited stats from the God Pokemon stack onto the other Pokemon's stats or does it change it to whatever stats that the God Pokemon has?
(If you don't understand then here's an example: Let's say P-Don is the God Pokemon and a, let's say Bisharp is in the second slot or the ATK slot, would P-Don's ATK stat of 180 stack onto Bisharp's ATK stat of 125 or would it change the stat to 180?)
And also this may seem to be a fairly stupid question but does the God Pokemon keep its stats? Just want to make sure before I actually go in and start making a team, I've never participated in this tier nor have I heard of it.

 

[Scarf]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the thing I'm confused about in this is... does the inherited stats from the God Pokemon stack onto the other Pokemon's stats or does it change it to whatever stats that the God Pokemon has?
(If you don't understand then here's an example: Let's say P-Don is the God Pokemon and a, let's say Bisharp is in the second slot or the ATK slot, would P-Don's ATK stat of 180 stack onto Bisharp's ATK stat of 125 or would it change the stat to 180?)
And also this may seem to be a fairly stupid question but does the God Pokemon keep its stats? Just want to make sure before I actually go in and start making a team, I've never participated in this tier nor have I heard of it.

It doesn't stack and yes, the god Pokemon does maintain their normal stats

 

[Mariokartana]

It doesn't stack and yes, the god Pokemon does maintain their normal stats

Alright, thank you so much.

 

[iLlama]

Ill just clarify my thoughts that I dont think I expressed correctly in the last post. I think Deoxys-A is by all means "fine" in the metagame. Its very centralizing and also very popular, but this isnt cause for a ban. I asked early on in the thread for Deoxys-A to get banned in order to create a healthy and more creative metagame where people would have to utilize more gods, but as far as balance goes I dont believe it needs to be removed- its not the strongest individual god pokemon available in the tier and while not incredibly problematic, it does create a weak hp and defense slot that needs to be catered for. Like I said before, I think Deoxys-A teams are an excellent answer to Mega Sableye. Maybe I can rephrase this and say that teams that involve an incredibly powerful triple wallbreaker core are usually able to bust through both Mega Sableye plus stall when played correctly, due to the vast number of different pokemon that these wallbreakers can be- stall cant deal with all of them. Sableye relies on raw stats and a lack of weaknesses, but also suffers a lack of resistances. Most mons that inherit a 150 offense stat from a god will stand a chance at breaking Sableye provided they are not Smeargle, who is the only one that relies entirely on a STAB that Sableye can handle- this puts it under a lot of pressure. Right now, the best example of these triple wallbreaker cores is Deoxys teams- which should also be mentioned as being the most popular type of team in the metagame right now. This hyper offensive meta, paired with the increased number of viable fairies, paired with the fact that Mega Sableye can't run all of its desired options at once, led me to believe it could be fine for the tier. Im not trying to justify broken with broken. I think Deoxys is fine and that the most common playstyle checks Sableye in a way that prevents it from totally dominating the tier, at this current time. Mega Sableye is probably the best pokemon in the tier. Does that mean it needs to go? I wasnt totally convinced, so I voted no ban.

Here are some mons that can handle Mega Sableye (assuming 120hp- I am not sure if giratina/sableye is really a good stall combination considering the lack of synergy):

All CM Arceus formes
Primal Kyogre
Primal Groudon
Xerneas
CB Ho-oh
Rain + Sun teams in general
Victini
Clefable
Tapu Koko
Tapu Fini
Comfey
Mimikyu
Tapu Lele
SpA Tapu Bulu
Magearna
Volcarona
Taunt Mega Gyarados
Scrappy Pangoro
Cresselia + many other CM pokemon
Swellow
Serperior
Nidos
Marowak-A
Buzzwole + sub dark resist pokemon
Araquanid
Guts Heracross

Bolded can switch into Mega Sableye also. Knock Off vs Foul Play also limits its ability to check physical and special threats at the same time, assuming it is running wisp + recover and a way to mega evolve safely. Even with magic bounce it wont be immune to passive damage also. Muk-A is annoying for stall this gen as well thanks to its pursuit and ability to spread poison with ease, which will cause problems to Mega Sableye as a poison type "counter".
Maybe the key issue with Sableye is that only a few key pokemon out of the ones that can break it can also set hazards. But Im not sure.

I would like Deoxys to leave the tier. But I cant justify it through anything apart from making the tier more creative. I am gunna leave this thread alone now :|

Here is the list of Pokémon that you mentioned that don't do great as they display how teams must run specific Pokémon or have to run a specific God Pokémon *cough* Deoxys-A *cough* just to handle it, yet still lose to common stall teams. These Pokémon will all be based off of your premise of Arceus being the God. Bear in mind, all of the attacking Pokémon in this first tab are mainly utilizing Deoxys-A gifted attack stats, otherwise they would be even less likely to break stall and have more checks/counters to them.

Pokémon With Explanations

All CM Arceus forms - Only about 4 viable CM Pokemon for Godly Gift, let alone in general that wouldn't be considered niche or a subject of overcentralization. Unaware Pokémon. Phazing with Roar, Whirlwind, Dragon Tail, or Haze,
Xerneas - Shut down by SpD Clefable, Magearna, Arceus forms common for stall, Phazing with Roar, Whirlwind, or Haze,
Rain + Sun teams in general - A highly specific team composition? This is overcentralizing in itself.
Clefable - Arceus forms common for stall, Ferrothorn, Magearna, Muk Alola, Skarmory, Status,
Tapu Koko - Arceus forms common for stall, Muk Alola, Tangrowth,
Tapu Fini - Arceus Steel, Clefable, Ferrothorn, Muk Alola, Tangrowth, Phazing with Roar, Whirlwind, or Haze,
Comfey - Arceus Steel, Clefable, Crobat, Magearna, Muk Alola,
Mimikyu - Arceus Steel, Clefable, Skarmory, Status,
Tapu Lele - Completely depends on the Tapu Lele set as Arceus Steel and Skarmory (for example) can switch in for a hit and if it is apparently choiced and into Moonblast, you stay in. If it's Psychic, you can stay in or go right back to Mega Sableye.
SpA Tapu Bulu - Sounds pretty centralizing, even if it is a decent set. Arceus Steel, Magearna, Muk Alola, Skarmory, Tangrowth,
Magearna (Assuming this is Fleur Cannon, Thunderbolt, Fighting Coverage, -filler- and this is boosted Speed) - Amoonguss, Arceus forms, Clefable, Magearna, Tangrowth,
Volcarona - SpD Clefable, Hazards, Phazing with Roar, Whirlwind, and Haze,
Taunt Mega Gyarados - Overcentralizing. Clefable, Tangrowth, Tapu Fini,
Scrappy Pangoro - Seriously? Overcentralizing.
Cresselia + many other CM pokemon - Confused how Cresselia beats Mega Sableye. So is it two attack with Moonlight as recovery, which loses to Arceus Steel, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, etc. or is it single attack Moonblast with Resttalk so it has the same counters? Clefable, Phazing with Roar, Whirlwind, Dragon Tail, and Haze,
Swellow - Common Priority, Magearna, Tyranitar,
Serperior - Azumarill, SpD Clefable, Crobat, Tangrowth,
Buzzwole + sub dark resist pokemon - Clefable, Crobat, Skarmory, Phazing...,
Araquanid (Must be Choice Band or Choice Specs otherwise another Pokémon can switch in freely) - Still risky because being choice into a water stab lets Tangrowth come in while bug stab lets Skarmory come in. Pretty much the only Pokémon that can stop Mega Sableye stall with an Arceus as the God. Bare in mind, if Giratina is the God, Araquanid gets walled by Giratina.

Here are some calcs for Pokémon that you think handle Mega Sableye, that don't actually handle it.

Calcs

Primal Groudon
0 Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 114-135 (25.6 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Sableye-Mega Foul Play vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Groudon: 109-129 (27 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 148-175 (33.3 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Sableye-Mega Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon: 142-168 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye-Mega: 198-234 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Sableye-Mega Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Groudon: 142-168 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Primal Kyogre
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye-Mega in Heavy Rain: 337-397 (75.9 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Metal Burst KOes in return)
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye-Mega in Heavy Rain: 271-319 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Metal Burst KOes in return)
252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega in Heavy Rain: 249-294 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Metal Burst can KO in return)
0 Atk Sableye-Mega Foul Play vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Kyogre-Primal: 144-169 (37.3 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Ho-oh
208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye-Mega: 258-304 (58.1 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Metal Burst KOes in return)
208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 193-228 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO (Metal Burst can KO in return)
0 Atk Sableye-Mega Foul Play vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 181-214 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO

Victini
(180 Atk) 252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 232-274 (52.2 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(180 Atk) 252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye-Mega: 310-366 (69.8 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Sableye-Mega Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victini: 396-468 (116.1 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

(150 Atk) 252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 202-238 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO
(150 Atk) 252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye-Mega: 270-318 (60.8 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Sableye-Mega Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Victini: 344-408 (100.8 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Marowak Alola
252 Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 175-207 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye-Mega: 234-276 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Sableye-Mega Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 206-246 (78.9 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 192-226 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye-Mega: 256-303 (57.6 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Sableye-Mega Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 228-270 (87.3 - 103.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Nidos
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 230-270 (51.8 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Metal Burst)
252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye-Mega: 177-208 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (After Knock Off meaning Mega Sableye doesn't lose and can Recover stall or switch if need be)


Heracross
(180 Atk) 252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye-Mega: 310-366 (69.8 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Metal Burst KOes in return)
(180 Atk) 252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 232-274 (52.2 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Metal Burst can KO in return)

(150 Atk) 252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sableye-Mega: 270-318 (60.8 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Metal Burst can KO in return)
(150 Atk) 252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 202-238 (45.4 - 53.6%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO (Mega Sableye can stall in return or chip with Metal Burst/Foul Play)

 

[RyanGosling]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the thing I'm confused about in this is... does the inherited stats from the God Pokemon stack onto the other Pokemon's stats or does it change it to whatever stats that the God Pokemon has?
(If you don't understand then here's an example: Let's say P-Don is the God Pokemon and a, let's say Bisharp is in the second slot or the ATK slot, would P-Don's ATK stat of 180 stack onto Bisharp's ATK stat of 125 or would it change the stat to 180?)
And also this may seem to be a fairly stupid question but does the God Pokemon keep its stats? Just want to make sure before I actually go in and start making a team, I've never participated in this tier nor have I heard of it.

150 Atk actually because pokemons that change forms give their base form stats.

If Mega-Metagross is your god -> Metagross' stats are passed
If Primal Groudon is your god -> standard Groudon's stats passed
If Aegislash -> shield form stats
etc...

Assuming 150 base HP Sableye and standard Pangoro base Atk:

252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 540-636 (107.1 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This pokemon is shit but it has a niche right there.

N​

 

[willempju]

150 Atk actually because pokemons that change forms give their base form stats.

If Mega-Metagross is your god -> Metagross' stats are passed
If Primal Groudon is your god -> standard Groudon's stats passed
If Aegislash -> shield form stats
etc...

Assuming 150 base HP Sableye and standard Pangoro base Atk:

252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 540-636 (107.1 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This pokemon is shit but it has a niche right there.

N​

Except you used standard Sableye. The correct calc is
252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 386-456 (76.5 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Tornadus-Therian]

I didn't see the name change when you made the second post, so I laddered on a "DAS" account. If you need me to do this again I guess I can, but I'd rather spend time laddering on my main.

I'm voting BAN for both.

M-Sableye puts too much pressure on almost all standard stallbreakers between Magic Bounce, massive bulk, Metal Burst, and CM. It also provides implicit hazard control, making regen stall incredibly strong. I think enough has been said on this point already.

Deoxys-A made the metagame pretty stale pretty quickly. A pretty huge number of matchups are either decided at teambuilder for stall, or based on whose 150 speed mon wins the most speed ties for offense. There's almost no reason not to use it if you want to play any sort of offense, since it unquestionably provides the best offensive boosts by a wide margin. IMO it's unreasonable to expect bulkier teams to reasonably wall arbitrary attacks coming from 180 base (Special) Attack with 2 standard walls, 3 boosted walls, and 1 Uber pokemon.

Massively powerful offensive pokemon are fundamentally different from defensive ones. In a stall vs offense matchup because it only takes 1 attacker to win the game outright (particularly with Z moves), while it typically takes at least 3 defenders to do the same. Playing stall, I basically had to click X whenever I saw the right combo of Swellow, Tapu Koko, Pikachu, Mimikyu, Smeargle, AWak, Serperior, etc., regardless of the setup I brought. When I played balance, this was exacerbated even further, since my defensive core was even more tenuous, and I had no chance at outgunning the Deo-A team at any point. I played my own DeoA team for a while, and found that the mirror match came down to a lot of webs, speed ties, and Mimikyu sweeps, which made for a lot of boring games.

As for the suspect ladder games, I played Ho-Oh stall the whole time. I went 18-0 against pretty sub-par offense teams that were struggling to rebuild, and then lost the last two to pressure stall, and a very solid KyuW team.

 

[Stall is coming]

I'm voting DO NOT BAN for both.

* Mega-Sableye: My judgment doesn't change since yesterday.

* Deoxys-A:The suspect of a God is very different that a suspect of a receiver . In this suspect we judge Deoxys-A's teams and not the pokemon himself.

Let's explain the schema of a Deoxys-A team.

* ATTACK : Smeargle | Dugtrio | Marowak-Alola | Mimikyu | Araquanid | Pikachu |
* SPECIAL ATTACK : Swellow | Tapu Lele | Serperior | Tapu Koko | Araquanid |
* SPEED : Heracross-Mega | Marowak-Alola |

This isn't a restrictive list. So, this kind of team has 3 powerful sweeper who make a lot of damage to any pokemon without gift.

And for the other pokemons, we have the choice: hazard removal, spiker, trapper, sweeper, revenge killer :
* HP: Shuckle | Skarmory | Dugtrio |
* DEFENSE : Hoopa | Ditto | Nihilego | Pyukumuku
* SPECIAL DEFENSE : Kartana | Ditto | Pyukumuku

The Deoxys-A teams are classic.

When I saw the rules of this metagame, I was afraid of the power of HO Deoxys teams. But when I played against this type of team, I won because I could stall these.

I don't think like you Pipotchi, I think that M-Sableye teams destroy Deoxys-A teams. When the battle is a opposition Stall/Offense; the key of the victory is hazard control. And M-Sableye is a GOD in this issue. [ It's not the argument we need broken to counter broken because I think that Sableye doesn't deserve to be ban. ]

And if we play Shuckle teams ( It's a team with Shuckle as God ), we have 2 SUPER-Staller with respectly 614 of SPE Def and Def and we can Hardstall HO easily.

Deoxys-A is the most common pokemon in this tier and the most common God. But I consider that he doesn't deserve the ban.

That's just my opinion.

ps: Don't forget that SMOGON hates complex ban, so if you consider that (HP) M-Sableye is broken, so (Speed) M-Sableye will also be banshed.