[Gen6] CAP Viability Ranking Thread V2

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun

Unranked ---> Somewhere decently high like B or B+

Pros: It's one of the Pokemon that you'll ever switch into a Ground-type move. It has a lot of disruption options with Leech Seed and Sleep Powder. Good Charizard lure. Regenerator. Two good sets in AV and Lefties + utiltity. Can check Keldeo and other Water-types unlike Tomohawk. Switches into Electrics.

Cons: Slow AF. Tomohawk food. Weak to Ice. Looks like a ball of noodles.

Conclusion: pgood, should get ranked since its okay imo
 
Yeah tangrowth needs to be ranked, it's a really solid Pokemon. Flat B sounds good since Tangrowth suffers from Tomohawk, special fairies, and Boltbeam, which are all common trends.
 

Drapionswing

Eating it up, YUMMY!
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Nom bomb incoming.

Medicham Mega A- > A/A+

Medicham is a very potent wallbreaker in CAP. Unlike other fighting type wallbreakers like mega lopunny or terrakion medicham can actually beat through tomohawk. Medicham preforms very well in the current meta as it has the power to break through very bulky teams with little to no problem and is supported very well by voltturn. Medicham is very easily revenged due to it's base 100 speed however it eliminates naturally fast mons like diancie or syclants ability to revenge kill it due to the presence of bullet punch and doesn't have to risk a speedtie with mega garde. Despite these positive traits medicham is weak to status and lacks a desirable defensive typing or bulk thus preventing me from giving it a solid nomination to A+.

Mega Lopunny A- > A

Mega Lopunny is a really great mon in this meta. It's fast nature allows it to outspeed most relevant mons in the tier and allows itself to not be revenge killed as easily. Lopunny has a really nice matchup vs offensive teams as it's switchins begin to be more limited as you have moves like ice punch to get around mons like lando-t or garchomp. Lopunny is able to threaten majority of the metagames offensive mons due to it's power combined with it's speed and with threats like syclant. However lopunny struggles to break mons like tomohawk, slowbro ( both of which can be crippled by toxic), or cyclohm which are all trending currently.

Mollux A > A-

Mollux is a very versatile mon due to it's endless supply of utility however it lacks the ability to use this utility well. As a spinner mollux is lacking as it let's in a lot of threats like colossoil, ttar, latios, stratagem or crucibelle and also suffers from being weak to rocks itself, ultimately losing to common rockers like lando or chomp. Rocker mollux lacks value as other rockers don't allow some of the best hazard removers like latios or colossoil in freely. Scarf mollux, which is it's most viable set lacks as it often locks itself into undesirable moves such as tbolt or sludge bomb which then allow in grounds or steels with coverage to beat mollux like metagross. As a water check mollux does well however but is constantly fearing hp ground from the likes of keldeo, psychic from manaphy and psychic coverage from starmie, slowbro, slowking. other offensive water checks like slowking, latios do the job a bit better.

Altaria A > B/B+

Altaria is a good mega, however this only comes after a dragon dance (special altaria is outclassed af) as it struggles to do much before then. Common walls like pyroak, or skarm don't really give a fuck about what it wants to do before or after a dragon dance. It's slow nature before dd makes it extremely easy to force out by the likes of all fairies, plasmanta, and common steels and is also set up bait for cawm. Not only this but it's extremely weak to status. As a sweeper mons like garchomp, auru, clef do the job 100 times better. However Altaria has it's merits as it has nice bulk, recovery and is a fairy type which is very useful in the cap meta. Not only this but it's a physical sweeper that gets past tomohawk which is pretty neat.

Starmie A- > B

In the cap meta I find starmie to be a somewhat unreliable spinner. Starmie has a seriously bad case of 4MSS where it wants to run recover to be a longevity spinner, scald for utility, psychic to prevent mons like mollux or plasmanta from fucking you up and toxic for dealing with fat mons like Pyroak, tangrowth. It also wants to run ice beam to straight up kill rockers like tomo, or garchomp. Starmie struggles to beat a bunch of rockers in the current meta due to it's 4MSS and is easily trapped by the likes of mons like weavile, colossoil or ttar making it just that bit more unreliable as a spinner. It struggles with competing with kitsunoh as a hazard remover which fits well on more offensive teams due to the niches that kitsunoh seems to be able to fill moreso than starmie as kitsunoh can retain momentum through u-turn, burn possible trappers with more consistency than scald and has a better defensive typing allowing it to handle mons like medicham or aurumoth much better.

Kitsunoh B > B+/A-

Kitsunoh is a really effective defogger in cap. It can defog on a very wide range of pokemon due to it's great defensive typing. Kitsunohs speed allows it to place nicely on offensive teams as a defogger and due to wisp and u-turn it can offer some nice traits to offence through wisping offensive threats or burning defesive mons like skarm and retain momentum. Due to kitsunohs wisp it can burn a vast variety of setters giving it more effectiveness than starmie as an offensive hazard remover. Kitsunoh also has the ability to go with more defensive sets that can still be used on more bulky offensive teams as it provides a check to mons like medicham or aurumoth both of which destroy bulk offence. However it's bulk is not all that and really appreciates wish support. Not only can it be worn down easily but it's ghost typing leaves it susceptible to trapping by common trappers, however u-turn and wisp give it a form of counter play.

Tyranitar B- > B+/A-

Trapper ttar struggles to deal with the common metagame threat tomohawk, competes strongly with colo as a trapper and is easily forced out/revenged due to it's undesirable speed however ttar has it's good points. Due to sand ttar can actually run choice band and still be quite bulky on the special side due to it's benefits, upon gaining these benefits ttar is a much more powerful trapper than colo and can get rid of threats to teams much more easily. Due to it's lack of guts it struggles to trap fire types a lot more however due to the threat of a burn. Ttars choice band + extra coverage allows it to be walled a lot less easier due to it being able to break past mons like rotom, skarm, ferro allowing ttar to also function as a wallbreaker to an extent. Ttar is also able to provide sand support allowing it to chip away at potential switchins. Ttars bulk allows it to pursuit much better than the likes of bisharp and weavile and rival colossoils giving it a really nice reason to be run in the cap meta.

Skarmory A > A+

Skarmory is a god rn lol. Skarmory can wall so many good portions of the cap meta due to fairies being so good, it's an excellent rocker and beats so many mons in the tier rn it's a joke. Skarmory can run toxic to catch defensive mons you may wanna pivot into skarm to get momentum or attack me with, such as rotom-w, roak, fat waters. It's a reliable rocker due to roost and being able to really pressure offensive hazard removers like latios or colo. Skarm seriously needs to be up there

Bisharp A- > B

Bisharp is a bad trapper and is lacking completely, as a sweeper it struggles to deal with tomo. Colo can easily revengekill bisharp due to it's slow speed and other grounds can do similar things. Bisharp just doesn't do anything special. If you want a good SD sweeper you have plently of other options. Once bish has a kill common wallbreakers like keldeo or terrak can easily just cc or sacred sword and just kill this thing. It doesn't serve a good niche in the meta game other than as a mon that can offensively pressure fairies which is why I suggested it for B instead of something lower.
 
I have a nomination for Kerfluffle, assuming he's open for the usual CAP Meta.

Kerfluffle for A+

Kerfluffle has access to both Fairy and Fighting STAB, which cover many relevant threats in the CAP meta, including the broken-ass Tomohawk. If it can't hit its opponent super effectively, it can just use Parting Shot to switch into a favorable matchup. Natural Cure rids itself of status upon switching out, but it still has to watch out for paralysis. Taunt lets it shut down most walls, although tanks like Cyclohm still get wrecked by Fairy STAB. Kitsunoh, Cawmodore, and Crucibelle give the cottom combatant a hard time, but it has great matchups against most of the other native CAPs.
 

emma

is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis a Past SCL Champion
DPL Champion
bringing this back too :D


Blissey: D to Unranked
There is no reason to use this over Chansey. Chansey is bulkier, and the only that ranking Blissey achieves is making inexpiernced users thinking it's worth a shot, when in reality, it's outclassed. There's a reason this is UU while Chansey is OU.


Sylveon: B- to C+ (Possibly Lower)
Sylveon is also outclassed, this time by Clefable, but at least this time, Sylveon has a niche. Support Sylveon is outclassed by Clefable due to better defensive stats and abilities, along with a better movepoll, getting movies such as Thunder Wave. Offensive sets are mostly outclassed by Mega Gardevoir, but Sylveon can run a SubCM set better due to better bulk and Leftovers. Furthermore, Sylveon doesn't take up a Mega slot, however, it's still outclassed and needs a drop. This is UU, while Clefable and Mega Gardevoir, are OU.


Amoonguss: B- to B (Possibly Higher)
Amoonguss got a huge boost with the introduction of Kerfuffle. Choice Specs Focus Blast / Moonblast / HP Ground / Sludge Wave (all common attacking moves) come no where near to 3HKOing, while Amoonguss can recover it all back with Regenerator. It even gets around Taunt with Sludge Bomb. It faces competition from Mega Venusaur, but with Kerfuffle, not taking all a mega slot, and Regenerator, it deserves a rise.


Mega Venusaur: A- to A
See above. Got a huge boost in Kerfuffle meta and it's debatably the best check. Furthermore, it beats top threats such as Clefable, Colosoill, Azumarill, Manaphy, Keldeo, and more, to warrant a mega slot. Reliable recovery in Synthesis and a sleep move in Sleep Power make it deserve a rise.


Sableye: D to Unranked
This thing is outclassed. Tomohawk also gets Prankster reliable recovery, Taunt, and can set up, while actually being able to take a hit. Will-O-Wisp users such as Tank Mega Charizard X or SpD Talonflame are better since they lure in Ground types. If you want to use Sableye, use Mega Sableye, the regular form just gets outclassed and has no real justification to use on a team.

Kerfuffle: A+
This is definitely a really good mon, Fairy / Fighting coverage hits notable Pokemon except Talonflame (which is frail and gets hit my Parting Shot on the switch) and Poison Types, which gets pivoted on into common Psychics such as Latios, or ground such as Colosoill. It does have great switches in with reliable recovery like Mega Venusaur, Kitsunoh, and Amoonguss, but these are easily check by teammates and Parting Shot.

Both potential nominations I'm thinking about are moving up Slowking, Tyranitar, and Volkraken, but I'm not too sure, so take this at an unofficial nomination for those three. Gen 7 and SM are coming up so getting the VRankings the best they can be is important. : D
 
Last edited:

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
is an Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
-Insert expected HeaL Sylveon rant, feel free to skip if you want-
How can someone write a paragraph about Sylveon and not even mention specs? Pretty much all of the arguments brought up to lowering it were brought up earlier as well when it fell from to B-. Nothing has really changed since then, and it's still unmistakable that so many prominent CAP Pokemon (including the now new Kerfluffle) lose to it. This is not OU, this is CAP. Saying X and Y mons are X and Y ranks in OU has no merit here. Is it as supportive as Clefable? No. Is it as immediately offensively threatening than Mega Gardevoir? No. And guess what, it's ranked lower than them already for those reasons. What it does have is an interesting overlap, the ability to hit harder than Mega Gardevoir at the cost of being locked into a move and being slower (but at the benefit of not using a mega slot) and notably higher special defense than Clefable that gives it a variation.

I see Kerf being more A or A-. It gets worn down fairly easily, it can't take many hits, and it has some prominent auto counters such as AV Tornadus-T (or any Torn-T?). I think it's getting overhyped because it's the newest thing, but it seriously struggles against a number of things. It adds a great new niche to the metagame, and is a pretty good "glue mon" but I just don't consider it at the top of the metagame. It's not the strongest thing, it's not the fastest thing, it's not the most supportive thing. It's a weird combination of the three and definitely good and unique, but it's just not a master at anything.
 
Last edited:

Drapionswing

Eating it up, YUMMY!
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
bringing this back too :D


Blissey: D to Unranked
There is no reason to use this over Chansey. Chansey is bulkier, and the only that ranking Blissey achieves is making inexpiernced users thinking it's worth a shot, when in reality, it's outclassed. There's a reason this is UU while Chansey is OU.


Sylveon: B- to C+ (Possibly Lower)
Sylveon is also outclassed, this time by Clefable, but at least this time, Sylveon has a niche. Support Sylveon is outclassed by Clefable due to better defensive stats and abilities, along with a better movepoll, getting movies such as Thunder Wave. Offensive sets are mostly outclassed by Mega Gardevoir, but Sylveon can run a SubCM set better due to better bulk and Leftovers. Furthermore, Sylveon doesn't take up a Mega slot, however, it's still outclassed and needs a drop. This is UU, while Clefable and Mega Gardevoir, are OU.


Amoonguss: B- to B (Possibly Higher)
Amoonguss got a huge boost with the introduction of Kerfuffle. Choice Specs Focus Blast / Moonblast / HP Ground / Sludge Wave (all common attacking moves) come no where near to 3HKOing, while Amoonguss can recover it all back with Regenerator. It even gets around Taunt with Sludge Bomb. It faces competition from Mega Venusaur, but with Kerfuffle, not taking all a mega slot, and Regenerator, it deserves a rise.


Mega Venusaur: A- to A
See above. Got a huge boost in Kerfuffle meta and it's debatably the best check. Furthermore, it beats top threats such as Clefable, Colosoill, Azumarill, Manaphy, Keldeo, and more, to warrant a mega slot. Reliable recovery in Synthesis and a sleep move in Sleep Power make it deserve a rise.


Sableye: D to Unranked
This thing is outclassed. Tomohawk also gets Prankster reliable recovery, Taunt, and can set up, while actually being able to take a hit. Will-O-Wisp users such as Tank Mega Charizard X or SpD Talonflame are better since they lure in Ground types. If you want to use Sableye, use Mega Sableye, the regular form just gets outclassed and has no real justification to use on a team.

Kerfuffle: A+
This is definitely a really good mon, Fairy / Fighting coverage hits notable Pokemon except Talonflame (which is frail and gets hit my Parting Shot on the switch) and Poison Types, which gets pivoted on into common Psychics such as Latios, or ground such as Colosoill. It does have great switches in with reliable recovery like Mega Venusaur, Kitsunoh, and Amoonguss, but these are easily check by teammates and Parting Shot.

Both potential nominations I'm thinking about are moving up Slowking, Tyranitar, and Volkraken, but I'm not too sure, so take this at an unofficial nomination for those three. Gen 7 and SM are coming up so getting the VRankings the best they can be is important. : D
I agree with everything bar venu. I think that there is really no reason to run venu right now. Amoonguss or Tangrowth do venu better than venu, thanks to regenerator they don't have to waste time with synthesis. Not only this but they also don't cost you a mega slot. I'd rather see venu drop to B/B+. Venu really struggles in cap right now due to things like aurumoth or steels which makes venu kind of a burden due to amoonguss being able to threaten a sleep/prevent setup fodder or Tang being able to support utility through knock off.

-Insert expected HeaL Sylveon rant, feel free to skip if you want-
How can someone write a paragraph about Sylveon and not even mention specs? Pretty much all of the arguments brought up to lowering it were brought up earlier as well when it fell from to B-. Nothing has really changed since then, and it's still unmistakable that so many prominent CAP Pokemon (including the now new Kerfluffle) lose to it. This is not OU, this is CAP. Saying X and Y mons are X and Y ranks in OU has no merit here. Is it as supportive as Clefable? No. Is it as immediately offensively threatening than Mega Gardevoir? No. And guess what, it's ranked lower than them already for those reasons. What it does have is an interesting overlap, the ability to hit harder than Mega Gardevoir at the cost of being locked into a move and being slower (but at the benefit of not using a mega slot) and notably higher special defense than Clefable that gives it a variation.

I see Kerf being more A or A-. It gets worn down fairly easily, it can't take many hits, and it has some prominent auto counters such as AV Tornadus-T (or any Torn-T?). I think it's getting overhyped because it's the newest thing, but it seriously struggles against a number of things. It adds a great new niche to the metagame, and is a pretty good "glue mon" but I just don't consider it at the top of the metagame. It's not the strongest thing, it's not the fastest thing, it's not the most supportive thing. It's a weird combination of the three and definitely good and unique, but it's just not a master at anything.
I think kerf is A+ material. Kerf can pull of a lot of things despite it's longevity due to it's impressive power and surprisingly useful ability. Kerf can run taunt to shut down fat teams, specs to wallbreak through fat teams. Lo rest to fuck balance. And let's not forget good ol' yawn for being annoying :3. Kerf's versatility, in my opinion, warrants A+. Kerf is hard walled by a lot of poisons but due to parting shot you can easily get around them and pivot into natural checks like rachi, scizor, offensive psychics. In reality beating kerfs ps variants can have teams in the back most of the time and normally keep control of the game for a long period of time.
 

jas61292

used substitute
is a Community Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Definitely agree with everything HeaL said regarding Sylveon and especially Kerfluffle. It is super hyped up right now because it is new, and yes, the meta is adapting around it a bit, but ultimately, a ton of the Pokemon that stop it are already plenty good, and it does get worn down fairly quickly. And while it packs a punch, its not a powerhouse either. It fits in a lot of places, but ultimately, I would have a hard time putting it anywhere above A-.

I also really highly agree with GreenGogoatttt on Venusaur. Yes, it has to use Synthesis to recover, but compared to other similar Pokemon sharing its role, such as Amoongus and Tangrowth, it is all around bulkier and, thanks to Thick Fat, is much harder to force out. Furthermore, it hits much, much harder than Amoongus and has options like Leech Seed, EQ and HP Fire to use on Steel types and other Pokemon that would otherwise threaten you. Frankly, the only major downside is that it is a mega, but I find it more than worth it. It is the absolute best Kerf check, imo, and does plenty more. Is one of the few best Pokemon in the meta? No. But it certainly fits right in A.
 
Agreeing with Jas and GreenGogoatttt about Venusaur. Because of Thick Fat and his Bulkyness, he's able to take Altaria way more reliably than Amoonguss, Tangrowth or even Pyroak, because the last one can wall the Dragon, yes, but he can't hit back hard and must use Roar against the DD, especially if Altaria has Heal Bell to cure himself from the burn. He can also check things like Syclant (except the Tail Glow Set), which is really useful since Ice type is a fantastic offensive typing when Tomohawk, Colossoil and Cyclohm are everywhere. Venusaur has also the power to hit CM Clefable hard enough while Amoonguss relies on Clear Smog to prevent the Fairy from setting-up. Sleep Powder, while isn't as reliable as Spore, is also far less predictable. Green and Jas have already said what I didn't explain.

For Kerfluflle, A is fine to me, it can support his team and give it many placement. Defensive Sylveon isn't that outclassed by Clefable, this Special Defense allows to take hits from Mega-Diancie or Tomohawk more reliably. And the offensive one can be brought if your Mega Slot is already taken.
 
Last edited:

Drapionswing

Eating it up, YUMMY!
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
I think venu is in a rough spot right now.

If you need a kerf/fairy check amoonguss is better because of regenerator and passive recovery allowing you to not lose to much from being ps'd on by kerf whereas venu has to search for a syntehsis oppurtunity due to potential sr wearing you down in a voltturn core. Amoonguss also retains more momentum in a team than venu does due to regen and the threat of spore to shut down a pokemon temporarily for the game. You also don't have to struggle for a moveslot as not running hp fire allows steels to walk over you, not running eq allows poison types and tran to do whatever they want but all of those mons get threatend by amoonguss spore. Although venu can run sleep powder to have this utility amoonguss fits better and thanks to this the offensive pressure amoonguss lacks is mitigated to an extent. Venus thick fat doesn't shield it from any fire types as it still loses to the common ones unless eq (at which it then loses to steels as noted above) so you mainly use thick fat for it's utility for ice moves, but at that point something like mollux, plasmanta, scizor does the job venu wants while retaining more momentum, letting in less threats and not wasting a mega slot which you can use for another mon that can threaten fairies or water types.
 
Amoon a good fairy check right now, yes. But Venu can used for so much more. It's ability to ignore two weaknesses isn't something to pass by on, and along with its spectacular bulk and its great offenses, it makes sure Venu isn't as passive as Pokemon like Amoon. Regenerator is a loss, yes, but Thick Fat is a better gain if you play it right.

Sorry for the short post which probably has a ton of typos on it. I'm on mobile
 

Drapionswing

Eating it up, YUMMY!
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Amoon a good fairy check right now, yes. But Venu can used for so much more. It's ability to ignore two weaknesses isn't something to pass by on, and along with its spectacular bulk and its great offenses, it makes sure Venu isn't as passive as Pokemon like Amoon. Regenerator is a loss, yes, but Thick Fat is a better gain if you play it right.

Sorry for the short post which probably has a ton of typos on it. I'm on mobile
Thick fat helps you to handle things like manaphy's ice beam or clef fire blast... But you still lose to offensive fires and ices. You don't gain as much from thick fat as you do from regen + spore. Venu doesn't preform to an A rank standard.
Other A rankers can easily fit moves without losing much from not going with another option. Not only that but other A rankers don't let a bunch of mons in who can do what they want to venu. Examples of pokemon who just don't give a fuck about what venu wants to do and do whatever they want; Cruci, Heatran, Mollux, sciz, ferro, skarm, jirachi, talonflame, navi. If venu would like to actually break through a few of these mons it has to lose to another bunch of these mons.
Not only this but a lot of these mons set rocks which venu already hates due to no leftovers recovery and then you have to switch out thus losing you momentum. It just isn't that good.
 
Right I'm on computer now lgi

On the front of Venu being compared to amoon I have a lot of calcs I spent too much time on.

CALCS:




0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 140-168 (41 - 49.2%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
In Return
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 178-210 (41.2 - 48.7%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 258-306 (75.6 - 89.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 192-228 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
In Return
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 70-84 (19.4 - 23.3%) -- 16.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 64-76 (17.6 - 20.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Stealth Rock
At +3
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 440-518 (102 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 174-206 (48.4 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 156-184 (42.9 - 50.6%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Against Manaphy, Venusaur trumps Amoonguss in a lot of ways. Not only does Venusaur's Thick Fat and better offensive presence help it revenge and switch in on Manaphy much easily, but it can take burns much better than Amoonguss can, thanks to the fact that you'll see Venu running Synthesis more than you'd see Amoonguss typically running synthesis, as it competes for a slot with other Moves, such as Clear Smog, HP Fire, Sludge Bomb and Stun Spore. Amoonguss has a lot of good support moves but they often clash and compete for a slot, whilst Mega Venusaur can pick and chose what it wants to deal with very easily and is Flexible enough to have a lot of offensive and defensive options, but not so it ends up wanting the fifth move.



0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
In Return
0 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 170-204 (39.4 - 47.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 302-356 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 224-266 (56.8 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
In Return
0 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 146-174 (40.6 - 48.4%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 122-146 (33.6 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Even against a Pokemon that hits both Amoonguss and Venusaur super effectively, Venusaur has the upper hand thanks to its better offensive presence and bulk. Amoonguss may have the upper hand with the switching game here, as it can come in on a higher amount of health than Venu can if they've been damaged the same before switching in again, but it can still get 2KO'd and if it is worn down enough, Slowbro can win the bulk war. However, this is a small chance for Slowbro to win against Amoonguss. On the other hand, Venusaur wins in on every switch in unless it has had prior damage enough to KO it on the switch, as with the offensive variety, you can Giga Drain to get your health back and potentially KO it and the Defensive can Synthesis the damage away or click Giga Drain and recover health.



0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Krilowatt: 182-216 (40.9 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
In Return
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 205-242 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Krilowatt: 332-392 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Krilowatt: 246-290 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In Return
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Ice Beam vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 83-99 (23.1 - 27.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 73-86 (20.1 - 23.6%) -- 32.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

Krillowatt is hands-down beaten every time by any kind of Mega Venusaur, whilst Amoonguss struggles to handle the shrimp. After SR, Amoonguss gets straight up 2KO'd, meaning it can't switch in at all, Along with this, Venusaur can hit harder than Amoonguss with every move, 2KO-ing it, even with 0 SpAtk investment. No matter what Krillowatt wants to do to Mega Venusaur, it just can't touch it. This is because of Mega Venusaurs selling point over Amoonguss, Thick Fat. It's no use getting HP recovery switching out if you're just gonna switch back in and get 2KO'd. Krillowatt shows more than any other that Venu is an exemplary water type check as a water types main way of dealing with their weaknesses to grass type Pokemon is through Ice Beam, and Venusaur takes neutral damage to that. For this reason, Venusaur-Mega needs a raise

The reason all of the above calcs are water types is because of something that hasn't been touched upon in this discussion and I believe it needs to be put out there. Water Types are big in CAP, as they can check ground-types (Colossoil, Lando), have few weaknesses which they can (relatively) easily patch up with team support or movepool choices. Because of this, Water-type checks are quite common and needed. Both Amoonguss and Venusaur-Mega are good checks to water types, but Water-types normally carry Ice Beam, which can cleanly take out a lot of grass types which can normally check it. This is why Venusaur Mega should at least stay where it is. It checks so many Water Type Pokemon, even if they try to pull a fast one with an Ice Be, Venusaur can take it very very well.

Now
About the A Ranking thing.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the CAP metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.
I believe in the current metagame, with the hits that Venusaur can take and the damage it can dish out, Venusaur mega fits very well in A. It doesn't wall as much and its attack doesn't let it take down everything, and it sure as hell ain't A+ worthy, but it certainly performs an amazing role with a great typing. it is a reliable mega evolution that can take a lot of neutral and resisted hits, with an amazing offensive and defensive typing to help it out. With the introduction of Krefuffle, it can add that to its extensive list of Pokemon it has the ability to check, which already includes Fairy and Water types along with electric types and ground types. Venusaur has Thick Fat to take on Pokemon like Heatran and Pyroak better, whilst still keeping itself healthy and reliable with its great defensive movepool in Synthesis, Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, Giga Drain and many other moves. Venusaur is customizable enough to work agaisnt specific checks, or if you do not need that, you have a lot of utility to use. I've seen some People run full speed modest Leaf Storm MVenu to score more reliable KOs agaisnt some walls and although it competes for a slot with EQ or HP Fire on the offensive set, its very mix-and-match-able and more often or not, you'll have a fire type o ground type move on your team already.

The above post is why I spend to much time and energy on this goddamn website.
 

Drapionswing

Eating it up, YUMMY!
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Right I'm on computer now lgi

On the front of Venu being compared to amoon I have a lot of calcs I spent too much time on.

CALCS:




0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 140-168 (41 - 49.2%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
In Return
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 178-210 (41.2 - 48.7%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 258-306 (75.6 - 89.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 192-228 (56.3 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
In Return
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 70-84 (19.4 - 23.3%) -- 16.7% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 64-76 (17.6 - 20.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Stealth Rock
At +3
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 440-518 (102 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3
252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 174-206 (48.4 - 57.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 156-184 (42.9 - 50.6%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Against Manaphy, Venusaur trumps Amoonguss in a lot of ways. Not only does Venusaur's Thick Fat and better offensive presence help it revenge and switch in on Manaphy much easily, but it can take burns much better than Amoonguss can, thanks to the fact that you'll see Venu running Synthesis more than you'd see Amoonguss typically running synthesis, as it competes for a slot with other Moves, such as Clear Smog, HP Fire, Sludge Bomb and Stun Spore. Amoonguss has a lot of good support moves but they often clash and compete for a slot, whilst Mega Venusaur can pick and chose what it wants to deal with very easily and is Flexible enough to have a lot of offensive and defensive options, but not so it ends up wanting the fifth move.



0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- 32.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
In Return
0 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 170-204 (39.4 - 47.3%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 302-356 (76.6 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 224-266 (56.8 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
In Return
0 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 146-174 (40.6 - 48.4%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Slowbro Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 122-146 (33.6 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Even against a Pokemon that hits both Amoonguss and Venusaur super effectively, Venusaur has the upper hand thanks to its better offensive presence and bulk. Amoonguss may have the upper hand with the switching game here, as it can come in on a higher amount of health than Venu can if they've been damaged the same before switching in again, but it can still get 2KO'd and if it is worn down enough, Slowbro can win the bulk war. However, this is a small chance for Slowbro to win against Amoonguss. On the other hand, Venusaur wins in on every switch in unless it has had prior damage enough to KO it on the switch, as with the offensive variety, you can Giga Drain to get your health back and potentially KO it and the Defensive can Synthesis the damage away or click Giga Drain and recover health.



0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Krilowatt: 182-216 (40.9 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
In Return
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 205-242 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Krilowatt: 332-392 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Krilowatt: 246-290 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
In Return
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Ice Beam vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 83-99 (23.1 - 27.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 73-86 (20.1 - 23.6%) -- 32.8% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

Krillowatt is hands-down beaten every time by any kind of Mega Venusaur, whilst Amoonguss struggles to handle the shrimp. After SR, Amoonguss gets straight up 2KO'd, meaning it can't switch in at all, Along with this, Venusaur can hit harder than Amoonguss with every move, 2KO-ing it, even with 0 SpAtk investment. No matter what Krillowatt wants to do to Mega Venusaur, it just can't touch it. This is because of Mega Venusaurs selling point over Amoonguss, Thick Fat. It's no use getting HP recovery switching out if you're just gonna switch back in and get 2KO'd. Krillowatt shows more than any other that Venu is an exemplary water type check as a water types main way of dealing with their weaknesses to grass type Pokemon is through Ice Beam, and Venusaur takes neutral damage to that. For this reason, Venusaur-Mega needs a raise

The reason all of the above calcs are water types is because of something that hasn't been touched upon in this discussion and I believe it needs to be put out there. Water Types are big in CAP, as they can check ground-types (Colossoil, Lando), have few weaknesses which they can (relatively) easily patch up with team support or movepool choices. Because of this, Water-type checks are quite common and needed. Both Amoonguss and Venusaur-Mega are good checks to water types, but Water-types normally carry Ice Beam, which can cleanly take out a lot of grass types which can normally check it. This is why Venusaur Mega should at least stay where it is. It checks so many Water Type Pokemon, even if they try to pull a fast one with an Ice Be, Venusaur can take it very very well.

Now
About the A Ranking thing.



I believe in the current metagame, with the hits that Venusaur can take and the damage it can dish out, Venusaur mega fits very well in A. It doesn't wall as much and its attack doesn't let it take down everything, and it sure as hell ain't A+ worthy, but it certainly performs an amazing role with a great typing. it is a reliable mega evolution that can take a lot of neutral and resisted hits, with an amazing offensive and defensive typing to help it out. With the introduction of Krefuffle, it can add that to its extensive list of Pokemon it has the ability to check, which already includes Fairy and Water types along with electric types and ground types. Venusaur has Thick Fat to take on Pokemon like Heatran and Pyroak better, whilst still keeping itself healthy and reliable with its great defensive movepool in Synthesis, Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, Giga Drain and many other moves. Venusaur is customizable enough to work agaisnt specific checks, or if you do not need that, you have a lot of utility to use. I've seen some People run full speed modest Leaf Storm MVenu to score more reliable KOs agaisnt some walls and although it competes for a slot with EQ or HP Fire on the offensive set, its very mix-and-match-able and more often or not, you'll have a fire type o ground type move on your team already.

The above post is why I spend to much time and energy on this goddamn website.
As I said in my earlier posts there are mons that just do what venu wants to do better at less costs. If you want a manaphy check try mollux. If you want a slowbro check why are you using a poison type? and yeah venu does do a good job against krill. and venu does not take on tran btw, Venu gets burned or lets rocks go up.

Yes venu has more offensive presence than amoonguss, yes venu is bulkier than amoonguss it's not hard to see that lol. But my point as to why venu shouldn't rise to A still stands. It let's in so many mons and loses you more momentum when other things can retain your momentum, offer utility and check fairies/waters while not taking up the mega slot.

I'm not saying venu can't do it's job well because... it can, however venu struggles to stay relevant when their are better mons with more utility, momentum and longevity.

Also a better amoonguss set for tanking special hits (in cap anyway idk about ou) is 116+ spdef.
 
Thick fat helps you to handle things like manaphy's ice beam or clef fire blast... But you still lose to offensive fires and ices. You don't gain as much from thick fat as you do from regen + spore. Venu doesn't preform to an A rank standard.
Other A rankers can easily fit moves without losing much from not going with another option. Not only that but other A rankers don't let a bunch of mons in who can do what they want to venu. Examples of pokemon who just don't give a fuck about what venu wants to do and do whatever they want; Cruci, Heatran, Mollux, sciz, ferro, skarm, jirachi, talonflame, navi. If venu would like to actually break through a few of these mons it has to lose to another bunch of these mons.
Not only this but a lot of these mons set rocks which venu already hates due to no leftovers recovery and then you have to switch out thus losing you momentum. It just isn't that good.
You underestimate M-Venusaur, do you? Offensive ice type pokemons aren't common, as they have many weaknesses; they have to watch out HP Fire, and of course any steel-types that you mentioned bar Heatran (you can lure him with EQ) aren't safe against M-Venusaur. Fire-type pokemons must be wary of Sludge Bomb.
It has the bulk, the movepool and the power to be in A-.

Amoonguus has the same weaknesses as M-Venusaur but it has limited movepool, is way too passive and slow to be effective.
 
If you want a manaphy check try mollux. If you want a slowbro check why are you using a poison type? and venu does not take on tran btw
Venusaur checks all of this, thats why. Tran is checked by EQ (which also hits Rachi, Kit, Mollux, Crucibelle and many others). Along with this I believe you're using venu wrong. The way I use Venu, at least, is as Pokemon with a unique role. A fat, late game sweeper. Venu misses out on a lot of KOs, but if you weaken your opponents team enough, Venusaur can come in and HeaLnDeaL damage with its great moveset and stats

Another mobile post, sorry

EDIT: I just went with the bog-standard calc spread, cheers, though.

EDIT 2 - THE RETURN: I realize that I didn't touch on the momentum point. However, if you switch in venu with the right team back up, this becomes much less of problem, I find. You can Damage your opponent with a move And then use a momentum grabber like rachi, which sets up rocks and handles Venus two weakness; flying and psychic.

EDIT 3 - THE SEQUEL THAT NO-ONE ASKED FOR AND REALLY SUCKED:

basically me and Drap had a discussion and cleard some stuff up, if you want to understand his Point a bit more, give this log a read.

DrapionSwing: Along with this I believe you're using venu wrong. The way I use Venu, at least, is as Pokemon with a unique role. A fat, late game sweeper.
DrapionSwing: Base 80 speed
Bionic Puppy: "fat"
Bionic Puppy: never mentioned anything about speed
DrapionSwing: You ain't sweeping
DrapionSwing: With mega venu
Bionic Puppy: sweeping is where a Pokemon can make its way through a team in a "sweep"
Bionic Puppy: it doesn't say anything about being fast"
DrapionSwing: venu can't sweep
DrapionSwing: Because of it's speed smh
Bionic Puppy: why not?
Bionic Puppy: What do you define as "sweeping" then
DrapionSwing: A sweeper
Bionic Puppy: like
DrapionSwing: actually first of all
Bionic Puppy: CM Cune
DrapionSwing: What you're referring to
DrapionSwing: Is a lategame cleaner
DrapionSwing: Second of all venu isn't a lategame cleaner
Bionic Puppy: "what your;e reffering to is a late game cleaner
Bionic Puppy: ...it aint a lategame cleaner"
Bionic Puppy: lmao
DrapionSwing: What you meant to say is lategame cleaner
DrapionSwing: that role
Bionic Puppy: why not?
DrapionSwing: of finishing up the game at the end
Bionic Puppy: Educate me
DrapionSwing: is a lategame cleaner...
DrapionSwing: And venu is not a lategame cleaner because it's slow and can't outspeed a bunch of mons
DrapionSwing: for you to "clean" a game with venu you have to kill like 4/6 of the mons
DrapionSwing: Venu is not a sweeper
DrapionSwing: because it has no wallbreaking potential
Bionic Puppy: so
Bionic Puppy: instead it walls the Pokemon
DrapionSwing: A sweeper is something that 0-100s you
Bionic Puppy: and thats the idea of cleaning
DrapionSwing: I dare you to go to the ou room
DrapionSwing: and ask if mega venu
Bionic Puppy: the walls have been broken down enough for this Pokemon to cokme in a beat them
DrapionSwing: is a lategame cleaner
DrapionSwing: or a sweeper
DrapionSwing: And see what they say...
Bionic Puppy: good thing tis is cap
DrapionSwing: Venu's role in cap
DrapionSwing: is no different from ru
DrapionSwing: ...?
DrapionSwing: ru
DrapionSwing: smh
DrapionSwing: i meant ou
DrapionSwing: But that post made me not want to reply anymore lmao
DrapionSwing: you said venu is a sweeper while referring to the role your talking about as a cleaner smh lol
Bionic Puppy: Yeah
Bionic Puppy: I got that wrong
Bionic Puppy: sorry about that
DrapionSwing: And this man tryna tell em
DrapionSwing: Idk what venu does LOL
Bionic Puppy: but the point still stnads, a Pokemon's speed does not dicate if it can clean or not
DrapionSwing: Late game cleaners are generally fast
DrapionSwing: For example stratagem
DrapionSwing: Just pick of the weakened stuff but it's harder for venu to pick off weakened stuff because it gets hit first
Bionic Puppy: "generally"
DrapionSwing: you know what I mean?
Bionic Puppy: yeah
Bionic Puppy: I do understand
Bionic Puppy: but
DrapionSwing: If you don't have setup, tr, or priority
DrapionSwing: You're not a cleaner lol
Bionic Puppy: Venu has specacular bulk, which lets it livea lot of hits. Giga Drain an recover HP along with dealing out some great STAB damage. It can beat through a lot of Pokemon but they need to be weakened a bit first, hence why its best in A
DrapionSwing: Smh
DrapionSwing: I'm not gonna argue about why venu isn't a material
Bionic Puppy: because it is nowhere near A+ material, but it has the ability to come in at the end of a game, take a couple of hits and dish out some big hits back
Bionic Puppy: catch my drift?
DrapionSwing: venu's playstyle isn't oriented to endgame tho
Bionic Puppy: ah
Bionic Puppy: but arguing is what I do best
Bionic Puppy: you now that
DrapionSwing: Not really
Bionic Puppy: ;)
DrapionSwing: So far you've told me what I can already see
DrapionSwing: "venu isn't weak to ice type moves"
DrapionSwing: "venu is bulky"
DrapionSwing: ok...
Bionic Puppy: Either way, we do need to get back on the original topic of Venu to A
DrapionSwing: But what does venu bring to the table that makes it A rank?
Bionic Puppy: instead of going over things which we can get at each toehrs necks at for days
DrapionSwing: Venu just saps away at your momentum
DrapionSwing: While the opponent defogs, rocks, spikes spins or some shit
DrapionSwing: And does nothing back
DrapionSwing: It struggles to be efficient because it can't fit eq and hp fire on the same movepool
DrapionSwing: And even hp fire is dong
DrapionSwing: If yo run hp fire you lose to tran
Your message is too long: Venu has amazing offensive pressure with great bulk. It dfoesn't fully sap momentum as if you switch it on the right Pokemon at the right time (for example, a Colossoil's Knock off) it forces another Pokemon to take damage, and whilst yu switch out and "sacrifice momentum", your opponent has to completely lay waste to theirs, having to make sure they either recover or land themselfs ina bad spot, where their pokemon can't switch in to Venu many more times
DrapionSwing: if you run eq you lose to sciz, ferro, skarm
Bionic Puppy: Venu has amazing offensive pressure with great bulk. It dfoesn't fully sap momentum as if you switch it on the right Pokemon at the right time (for example, a Colossoil's Knock off) it forces another Pokemon to take damage, and whilst yu switch out and "sacrifice momentum",
Bionic Puppy: your opponent has to completely lay waste to theirs, having to make sure they either recover or land themselfs ina bad spot, where their pokemon can't switch in to Venu many more times
DrapionSwing: You give up momentum
Bionic Puppy: huff puff
DrapionSwing: Venu has offensive pressure
DrapionSwing: until it doesn't lmfao
Bionic Puppy: wait
Bionic Puppy: how can a mon jsut "not" have offensive pressure?
DrapionSwing: When it's hard walled
Bionic Puppy: unless it pulls a 180 on its stats after mevolving
Bionic Puppy: then you switch out
DrapionSwing: nice offensive pressure
Bionic Puppy: Venu is all about the right switches
DrapionSwing: [21:04:13] Bionic Puppy: then you switch out
Bionic Puppy: you can switch a rotom into talonflame
Bionic Puppy: its walled
Bionic Puppy: "nice offensive pressure"
DrapionSwing: When it's hard walled by so many common mons
Bionic Puppy: however SD Flame exerts massive offensive pressure
DrapionSwing: What offensive pressure are you having?
Bionic Puppy: Names?
DrapionSwing: Scizor, skarm, mollux, plasmanta, ferro, tran, navi
DrapionSwing: Stealth rock, defog, u-turn, rapid spin, spikes, cm
Bionic Puppy: and it can choose to take down at least haf of those Pokemon
DrapionSwing: All these moves it let's get fires off
Bionic Puppy: bar navi probably
Bionic Puppy: with HP fire or EQ
Bionic Puppy: yes, it gets a mild case of 4MSS
Bionic Puppy: I aint gonna deny that
DrapionSwing: And then you have a bigger problem
DrapionSwing: You run eq
Bionic Puppy: but if you put it on the right team, you can cover those bases
DrapionSwing: You lose momentum
DrapionSwing: You run hp fire you lose momentum
Bionic Puppy: why so?
DrapionSwing: if you run eq
DrapionSwing: you're HARD walled by sciz, ferro, navi, skarm, cawm
Bionic Puppy: ah, yes
Bionic Puppy: thats true
Bionic Puppy: Defog and U-turn may prove a problem
Bionic Puppy: and if you run HP fire?
DrapionSwing: Which means free u-turn, free hazards, free setup, free hazard removal
DrapionSwing: Skarm, navi, tran, rachi, mollux, plasmanta, fidgit
Bionic Puppy: Skarm?
DrapionSwing: Free setup, lots of hazards, u-turn,
DrapionSwing: How much do you think hp fire does to spdef skarm
Bionic Puppy: no-one in CAP runs SpDef skarm
DrapionSwing: LOL
DrapionSwing: You keep telling yourself that buddy
DrapionSwing: I see spdef skarm p often
DrapionSwing: Because it's a good fairy check
DrapionSwing: until you see kerf
Bionic Puppy: Careful:252/0/0/0/252/4 6.924% |
Bionic Puppy: | Careful:252/0/4/0/252/0 6.867%
Bionic Puppy: 12% runs SDef Skarm
Bionic Puppy: yea I'm good thanks
DrapionSwing: Are you
DrapionSwing: Looking at
DrapionSwing: Fucking ladder stats
DrapionSwing: fuck out my face
Bionic Puppy: I'd rather not fuck your face
Bionic Puppy: thanks for the offer
DrapionSwing: LOL
DrapionSwing: | 40 | Diancie-Mega | 4.78870% | 501 | 2.386% | 388 | 2.587% |
DrapionSwing: This is the same ladder
Bionic Puppy: what ranking?
DrapionSwing: 1760 ofc
DrapionSwing: Ladder stats are useless
Bionic Puppy: onbe person is at 1760
Bionic Puppy: Airwind
DrapionSwing: Don't use them ever
Bionic Puppy: Use 150
Bionic Puppy: more people circulate there
DrapionSwing: Yes more trash circulates there
Bionic Puppy: aren't you aroud 1500?
DrapionSwing: | 48 | Diancie-Mega | 2.65937% | 501 | 2.386% | 388 | 2.587% |
Bionic Puppy: ok
Bionic Puppy: fair enough
DrapionSwing: Lmfao
DrapionSwing: Ladder is bad
Bionic Puppy: its a rougly good base though
DrapionSwing: No it's not lmao
Bionic Puppy: to get quick and easy stats from
DrapionSwing: mega diancie at 2.6% ?
DrapionSwing: c'mon
DrapionSwing: no
Bionic Puppy: for a casual discussion
DrapionSwing: lol
Bionic Puppy: So, lets say SpDef Skarm is the case
DrapionSwing: 252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 124-148 (37.1 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Bionic Puppy: Then lets list off some of Venus best artners
Bionic Puppy: Tran
Bionic Puppy: Slowbro
DrapionSwing: But there's your problem
Bionic Puppy: Rachi
DrapionSwing: Venu is really reliant on it's teammates to be effective
Bionic Puppy: very true
Bionic Puppy: but
DrapionSwing: What mon in A
Bionic Puppy: can't you say the same for any oter Poemon?
DrapionSwing: Relies so heavily on it's team to be effective
Bionic Puppy: Pinsir needs to get a mon to defog away rocks
DrapionSwing: And it's a-
Bionic Puppy: Cruci really neefds a ferro check
DrapionSwing: the difference between cruci and venu is
DrapionSwing: Cruci just clicks headsmash till you die
DrapionSwing: Venu clicks synthesis till it dies
Bionic Puppy: like me and a wal
DrapionSwing: Ofc no mon doesn't need team support
DrapionSwing: But venu needs more team support than any mon in a
DrapionSwing: And my point still stands that despite venus teammates being somewhat good answers to venus checks
DrapionSwing: They get overloaded with the offensive mons that are let in
Bionic Puppy: Char Y struggles with anyhting offensive and needs rocks away and needs to not take much damage
Bionic Puppy: trata needs to drop IMO
Bionic Puppy: but yeah
Bionic Puppy: I get yur poin
 
Last edited:

snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
Quick post, on mobile.

One advantage that Mega Venusaur has over Amoonguss is that it can run a fantastic offensive tank set that checks Water- and Fairy-types pretty well and hits its Fire- and Flying-type switch-ins pretty hard with Sludge Bomb. Additionally, offensive Mega Venusaur isn't forced to switch out of unboosted Cawmodore. Hidden Power has a 13/16 chance to KO post Belly Drum Cawmodore, so Cawmodore can't set up against it. Hidden Power Fire from Amoonguss is much weaker, and while Amoonguss can use Spore against Cawmodore to put it sleep, it has to be careful not to put a switch in to sleep.

What I want to say is that Mega Venusaur's offensive tank can absorb pretty nice hits while still maintaining an offensive presence. While Amoonguss can hit only one of its checks with Spore (it's other moves don't do too much damage, at least not compared to Mega Venusaur), Mega Venusaur can hit its checks with Sludge Bomb or Hidden Power Fire many times throughout the match. Mega Venusaur's offensive set shouldn't be underestimated. Mega Venusaur shouldn't drop. Not completely sure about a rise just yet, but it definitely shouldn't drop. Also, this isn't to say that Amoonguss is necessarily bad; rather, I'm just saying that Mega Venusaur is indeed good.
 

cbrevan

spin, spin, spin
is a CAP Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Hello everyone, I've got a couple things to announce. First, Exclaimer will be stepping down from the Viability Ranking Council and snake_rattler will be taking over her position on the council. Second, snake_rattler and I have been working on getting one last update done before Sun/Moon comes out in a couple weeks, which we've laid out bellow. We've tried to take into account as much feedback from this thread as possible, as well as meta trends we've observed since the release of Kerfluffle. Lastly, I want to make it clear that this list isn't the official list of changes yet, rather, they are what we think are appropriate. A lot of the changes are for Pokemon that weren't discussed in the thread so we'd like to give everyone a chance to comment on any of our proposed changes or make a nomination of their own. Once we feel discussion about the changes have slowed down we'll take in any additional feedback from this thread and make the final changes. I'd also like to thank anyone and everyone who's helped us by posting in this thread, every little bit of feedback is tremendously helpful to us.

A+:
Manaphy: A+ to A

The metagame has become increasingly offensive and the release of faster Pokemon such as Mega Crucibelle and Kerfluffle has made it more apparent how little Manaphy can do against faster teams. Other trends such as higher Latios usage and increased competition with other stallbreakers such as Gliscor and Naviathan have also lead to a decrease in viability.

A:
Mega Altaria: A to B+

This drop is a bit drastic, but with the current metagame's focus on Fairy-, Steel-, and Poison-types, Mega Altaria finds itself having a harder time setting up, which is important as offensive Dragon Dance is clearly its best set in the current metagame. Moreover, Clefable competesfor a Fairy-type with slower, supportive qualities.
Landorus-T: A to A+
Landorus-T has seen a massive spike in usage since our last update as people have shifted away from Garchomp and Colossoil as their Ground-type of choice due to Landorus-T's ability to compress multiple roles in a single teamslot. Being able to check Mega Crucibelle, Talonflame, and Colossoil all in one team slot is becoming a more and more valuable niche, and Landorus-T's ability to set Rocks efficiently is also very important.
Mollux: A to A-
Mollux's performance in the metagame has taken a notable decline. Mollux's Scarf set is being abandoned in favour of other revenge killers, notably Volkraken, Talonflame, and even Victini, who are able to revenge kill +1 Aurumoth. Additionally, slow Mollux sets have trouble working due to the popularity of Mega Crucibelle and Landorus-T. Even though it can stomach Kerfluffle's STAB attacks and Sludge Bomb, it has a hard time taking Hidden Power Ground, which is common on Kerfluffle sets.
Volcanion: A to A-
Volcanion's niche in the current metagame has stabilized as a powerful Specs abuser. Despite its powerful ability and superior movepool, Volcanion faces intense compition from Volkraken as the go to Choice user. We feel that this limitation on Volcanion is enough for it to drop into A-.
Kerfluffle to A
Kerfluffle has shown to be a very competent Pokemon in the current metagame that is able to punish a number of builds and threaten many top threats. However, we do not believe Kerfluffle has reached the level of centralization or utility as other A+ Pokemon have. The metagame has already started to adapt to it through the increase of Amoonguss in the meta, and until other developments occur to demonstrate a higher level of viability for Kerfluffle, it will be ranked in A.


A-:
Bisharp: A- to B+

Introduction of Kerfluffle into the tier has severly impacted Bisharp's viability, as Kerfluffle was designed to be a reliable revenge killer to Bisharp. Bisharp now carries a significant oppurtunity cost when Pursuit trapping as it has no counterplay against Kerfluffle once it is in. Other Pursuit trappers, such as Colossoil, Scizor, and Weavile better fill its niche while not being completely stopped by Kerfluffle.
Mega Medicham: A- to A
Mega Medicham has been seeing more usage lately as more people flock to Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur to check Kerfluffle, both of which are easy targets for Mega Medicham teams to target. Furthermore, Kerfluffle has proven itself to be an effective Mega Sableye check, which is a boon for Mega Medicham as the Magic Bouncer has histroically been its worst matchup. Additionally, Mega Medicham's ability to break through Cyclohm, Clefable, and Amoonguss all in one teamslot has proven to be valuable in this metagame.
Starmie: A- to B+
Another victim of the recent introduction of Kerfluffle, Starmie finds itself underperforming as it's unable to rely on its speed tier as much as before. Leftovers sets don't seem to be able to threaten enough, and Life Orb sets get worn down too quickly against other offensive teams. Latios is also giving it more competition due to its ability to fit better on offensive teams overall.

B+
Mega Gallade: B+ to B-

Mega Gallade represents one of the other drastic changes we'd like to see, as it's effectiveness in the current metagame has been called into question with the introduction of Kerfluffle, which can easily revenge kill it. There seems to be little reason to use Mega Gallade when Mega Medicham is able to achieve higher levels of power while having acces to Bullet Punch. It seems counter intuitive, but Mega Medicham is able to deal with Mega Crucibelle and Kerfluffle better than Mega Gallade through this move.
Hippowdon: B+ to B
Hippowdown has seen a drop in both viability and usage as Pokemon such as Landorus-T and more importantly, Gliscor, are rising. Overall, Landorus-T has completely overshadowed Hippowdon by offering much more offensive presence and a valuable Ground-type immunity. If Hippowdon becomes common on popular builds we may see it rising back to B+, but for now we believe its best to drop it to B.
Mew: B+ to B
Mew is a subpar stallbreaker, as it's main niche is to spam Taunt and Will-O-Wisp alongside Knock Off and Softboiled. However, the presence of offensive Pokemon such as Colossoil, who doesn't mind a burn or Taunt, Kerfluffle, who, again, doesn't mind a burn or Taunt, and Gliscor, who appreciates having a weak Knock Off removing its Toxic Orb and doesn't mind a burn. Additionally, a few stall staples aren't threatened by Mew such as Tomohawk, who can use Prakster Roost after Taunt wears off (forcing Mew to be in a stalemate), Pyroak, who absorbs Will-O-Wisp, and Mega Sableye, who flat out walls Mew. While Mew can run Psychic to alleviate some of these problems, Mew struggles to find a moveslot for it. Thus, Mew should drop to B.

B
Celebi: B to B-

Celebi has really taken as hit into obscurity with Mega Crucibelle being as close to the worst thing that could happen to it. Add in it's difficulty to deal with Tornadus-T and slow speed and its obvious why Celebi has slowly gotten worse and worse. Defensively it also competes with Amoonguss and Tangrowth, which are able to offer more without giving up as much momentum.
Kabutops: B to B-
Omastar: B to B
-
We've decided to drop both Rain sweepers as most Rain builds have centered around Kingdra as their backup sweeper of choice. There's specific weaknesses to either Pokemon, such as a compounded inability to break Rotom-W and Ferrothorn for Kabutops or Omastar's poor base speed, that hold these two Pokemon back when compared to Kingdra or Mega Swampert.
Mamoswine: B to B-
Mamoswine's slow speed really puts it at a disadvantage against offense and forces it to rely on its okay bulk or Ice Shard. A lot of common Pokemon, such as Mega Crucibelle and Mega Metagross, are able to force it out, and with the introduction of Kerfluffle into the metagame Mamoswine has become harder to fit onto teams.
Tangrowth to B
Tangrowth has proven to be a reliable pivot and a solid check to Pokemon such as Colossoil,
However, it struggles against common Pokemon such as Tomohawk, Volkraken, and Aurumoth, so it will be placed in B for now.
Slowking to B
Slowking is a viable pivot thats for the most part outclassed by Slowbro but has its uses on teams that need Slowking's superior special defense to check Kerfluffle and Tomohawk better. It is held back mainly because the physical threats Slowbro walls are more relevant than what Slowking walls. However, it's still a completely viable, if niche Pokemon, which fits right in with other B ranked Pokemon.


B-
Amoonguss: B- to B+

This mushroom's usage and viability shot up once Kerfluffle was released, as its now one of the go to checks on a number of teams. Amoonguss's rise has been a long time coming as it has proven itself to be an important check to Keldeo and other Pokemon for stall and balance builds.
KFP: B- to C
We just don't see a reason to use Mega Pidgeot anymore. Tornadus-T does everything better and has picked up another niche Mega Pidgeot is unable to fulfill by being one of the more reliable Kerfluffle switch ins. Additionally, Assault Vest Tornadus-T can check Cawmodore, and Life Orb Tornadus-T has superior coverage and power.
Sylveon: B- to C
The shift towards a faster metagame is the nail in the coffin for our ribboned friend. Support sets are almost entirely outclassed by Clefable, and it's offensive set received considerable competition from Kerfluffle, who may not be able to hit as hard as Sylveon but is leagues above it in terms of use against offense due to its higher speed, coverage, and better pivoting move. Other factors such as the new emphasis on Steel- and Poison-types has really put a damper on it.
Tyranitar: B- to B+
Tyranitar has finally found its niche in the metagame by being the de facto Talonflame remover, as well as a powerful wallbreaker or a competent scarfer. The increase of more traditional OU threats such as Landorus-T over Tomohawk has helped greatly in its effectiveness, and Tyranitar has once again found its main prey in Latios.
Dugtrio to B-
Dugtrio fulfills a strong niche of being able to remove troubling Pokemon, such as Naviathan or Heatran for stall, as well as making competent offensive cores with Pokemon such as Cawmodore or Kerfluffle to remove Mega Crucibelle or Volkraken. It's a very situational and niche option but more than enough to fit into B-.
Gastodon to B-:
Gastrodon can wall common Choice Water-types like Keldeo and Volkraken as well as wall Talonflame, Cyclohm, and Colossoil. It is comparable to Quagsire, another Water- and Ground-type that we are raising to B-, as Gastrodon's weakness to Grass-type moves prevents it from functioning fully. Additionally, Gastrodon can be overwhelmed by special sweepers.
Volcarona to B-
Volcarona has found it's niche as a powerful setup sweeper that perfectly exploits Kerfluffle. It has several advantages over its moth overlord Aurumoth in that its able to work around Bullet Punch much better than Aurumoth and can afford to run defensive setup options such as resist berries without compromising its power.

C
Mega Glalie: use Syclant

I'm dropping this Pokemon from the viability rankings. I've always felt like its been a significantly underwhelming Pokemon and nothing is more apparent with powerhouses such as Mega Metagross, Mega Crucibelle, and Kerfluffle not even giving it the time of day. There is no reason to use Mega Glalie over superior options such as Syclant, who can hit just as hard, set Spikes, pivot, and has good coverage, or Weavile, who can dish out powerful hits as well, Pursuit trap, and remove items.
Mega Houndood: unranked
I've also decided to drop Mega Dog as I see no reason to use it in the current metagame. Introduction of Kerfluffle as a solid check to it gives me all the more reason to remove it.
Quagsire C to B-
Quagsire has shown itself to be a decent option for stall teams looking for an Unaware user. This niche is more than anything in this rank can claim, so I'd like to move it to B-.
Suicune C to B-
The decline of Mollux really makes Suicine more viable than ever as it now represents a powerful wincon that can setup on a number of top threats. It's ability to snowball games once its been allowed to setup puts it apart from other C ranked Pokemon.
Magneton to C
We've decided to add Mangeton to C as it's a niche option for teams that would like to compress the role of Steel-type removal and Cawmodore check.
Cofagrigus to C
Cofagrigus has seen use on Trick Room teams as a secondary setter and as CAP is one of the few metagames with viable Trick Room teams, we've decided to add it to C. It's tremendous bulk and ability to apply pressure to opposing teams itself justify its rank in C.

D
Mega Bannete: unranked

I've finally decided to drop this trash Pokemon. It's painfully obvious to anyone halfway fluent in the metagame that it is way to much of a risk to run given the low quality results it gives.
 

Drapionswing

Eating it up, YUMMY!
is a CAP Contributor Alumnus
Manaphy to A
Disagree

Although manaphy is somewhat matchup dependant, as it struggles with more offensive teams/offensive mons like kerf or latios, the meta is still really slow and fat right now as I'd say balance and bulky offence are the most common types of teams you're likely to face. As a result of this manaphy shines very well as it's able to break through these fat teams with ease and put a real pressure on things. Even balance struggles to handle manaphy as it pressures the walls of the team immensely through the threat of TG.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
Manaphy to A
Disagree

Although manaphy is somewhat matchup dependant, as it struggles with more offensive teams/offensive mons like kerf or latios, the meta is still really slow and fat right now as I'd say balance and bulky offence are the most common types of teams you're likely to face. As a result of this manaphy shines very well as it's able to break through these fat teams with ease and put a real pressure on things. Even balance struggles to handle manaphy as it pressures the walls of the team immensely through the threat of TG.
I'm sorry but I really have to disagree as the best playstyle at the moment is definately variations of VoltTurn offense (Kerfluffle may be overhyping this style a little bit imo) and this basically leaves Manaphy with only one turn to actually do anything suggesting they still have something powerful enough to pressure Manaphy. You really have to work around any faster matchup with Scald (or any other coverage move) or good prediction which if were being honest, is impossible if all your opponent does is click switching moves. Also Calm Mind + Rain Dance does have a better chance versus offensive teams since it becomes a wall that becomes hard to beat but Naviathan also gives it competition with the extra resistances which give it more set up opportunities like on Latios for example. There's no denying its a great Pokemon but with how much it struggles to set up is a reason why I think it should stay A.
 
Last edited:
Manaphy to A: Agree
As Cbrevan said, Manaphy struggles against faster threats and faces competition to others stallbreaker. For example, Aurumoth Tail Glow can break through special more easily because of STAB Psyshock and can deal with Haze Tomohawk too, while Syclant is faster and can kill this bird too. The main avantage of Manaphy on these Pokemon is his bulkiness, his typing and his match-up against Unaware Clefable and some other Mon. Plus, Manaphy is somewhat a case of 4MSS: without Rain Dance, it's difficult to break through Unaware Clefable, without Psychic, Mollux and M-Venu are annoying, without HP Fire Ferrothorn can stop him...

Altaria to B+: Disagree
Altaria could have troubles against common Poison and Steel Type, yes, but it can also beat both of them with EQ and/Or Fire Blast. His fairy type is very useful against Tomohawk, Arghonaut, Cyclohm, Mega-Sableye and Colossoil. He isn't easy to Revenge Kill because of his Bulk and the fact that he's faster than Mollux (if Jolly) and doesn't mind about Scarf Volkraken which lacks Flash Cannon, Scarf Kitsunoh fails to OHKO it too. Also, being able to counter both Charizard forms is very appealing. The King DD is also pretty effective, and Special Altaria, while not as effective as Mega-Gardevoir offensively, is able to catch some of his checks. I wouldn't mind too much if he drops to A-, but I think he's better than B+.

I agree with the majority of the decisions too, but I'll give another opinion on Tyranitar, Gallade and Volcanion changes, I need to think about it more.
 

snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
Wenderz said:
Altaria to B+: Disagree
Altaria could have troubles against common Poison and Steel Type, yes, but it can also beat both of them with EQ and/Or Fire Blast. His fairy type is very useful against Tomohawk, Arghonaut, Cyclohm, Mega-Sableye and Colossoil. He isn't easy to Revenge Kill because of his Bulk and the fact that he's faster than Mollux (if Jolly) and doesn't mind about Scarf Volkraken which lacks Flash Cannon, Scarf Kitsunoh fails to OHKO it too. Also, being able to counter both Charizard forms is very appealing. The King DD is also pretty effective, and Special Altaria, while not as effective as Mega-Gardevoir offensively, is able to catch some of his checks. I wouldn't mind too much if he drops to A-, but I think he's better than B+.

I agree with the majority of the decisions too, but I'll give another opinion on Tyranitar, Gallade and Volcanion changes, I need to think about it more.
Mega Altaria has some defining features, but we feel that it has difficulties setting up. Additionally, the addition of Kerfluffle to the metagame added another pre-boost check while shifting the metagame away from Mega Altaria's favor.

While Offensive DD Mega Altaria is frankly terrifying once it boosts with Dragon Dance, it has trouble setting up. To start, many threats beat it as it tries to set up, including but not limited to: Kerfluffle, Mega Metagross, Mega Crucibelle, SD Talonflame, WoW Talonflame, Mega Diancie, Scarf Heatran and Syclant, all made more common by the introduction of Kerfluffle. While it can heal status ailments with Natural Cure, it's forced to forfeit any boosts it acquires, or else it's forced to deal with it after mega evolving, and Heal Bell takes up a valuable moveslot to use on this set. Furthermore, many defensive checks, including Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur, and Pyroak, are common now to check Kerfluffle. This Mega Altaria also has a fair amount of 4MSS. It must run Dragon Dance and Return (or Double Edge), but after that it runs into problems. If it want's to stay around, it must run Roost, but it also needs the coverage of both Earthquake (to get around Mega Crucibelle, Mega Metagross, and Heatran) and the frankly weak Fire Blast (to get around Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn). Due to its 4MSS, its ineffective way to get rid of status ailments, and increased amount of checks with the introduction of Kerfluffle, Offensive DD Mega Altaria struggles to compare itself with the A rank Pokemon.

While I haven't seen too many defensive Dragon Dance sets, while mono-attacking Fairy-type attacks are great, again, Mega Altaria shares Kerfluffle's checks, and without coverage, it cannot break them.

Defensive sets generally run special sets, and Mega Altaria faces more competition there. First off, even though it's not slow and defensive, Kerfluffle reigns supreme with its speed, power, and frankly superior coverage. Calm Mind Clefable and Heal Bell Clefable outclass defensive sets to an extreme, due to better abilities, more support moves, and not having a extra weaknesses to Ice and Fairy. Mega Gardevoir outclasses it as a wallbreaker, as Hyper Voice, Psyshock, and Focus Blast hits the tier for better coverage. Again, Mega Altaria faces 4MSS, as it needs to run both Heal Bell and Roost, leaving it two moveslots to fight over its Fairy-type STAB, Fire Blast, and Earthquake.

tl;dr Mega Altaria, while an interesting sweeper or pivot, is outclassed by the other Fairy-types in the tier, shares many checks with Kerfluffle (which are now more common, giving Mega Altaria issues), and has mild 4MSS. Personally, I'd like to see it in B+, but I wouldn't mind it being in A- either. However, I just don't see it in A any longer.


To intercept your next post, we're boosting Tyranitar for the time being: if it turns out to be even better, we can raise it again. I've seen the terrors of Choice Specs Volcanion first hand, I could see a case for keeping it in A.

However, Mega Gallade is dropping. It's sorely outclassed by both Mega Medicham (better Fighting-type STAB, better priority moves, more power), and Mega Lopunny (better Fighting-type STAB, better ability, more speed, better priority). That balance of power and speed frankly causes Mega Gallade to be worse than both Mega Medicham and Mega Lopunny. It has a useless ability, which doesn't help its case. It has to run Swords Dance to have a good damage output, but that takes up a moveslot for coverage. It also loses to Kerfluffle and other mons brought up by the metagame shift, so it's not excelling there either. The point is, it's a literal waste of a mega slot because the balance of power and speed just doesn't help it at all: either use Mega Medicham or Mega Lopunny if you want either of those. Sorry for this rant, but all I want to say is that you will have to make a seriously amazing argument for Mega Gallade if you want to keep it in B+.
 
Last edited:

jas61292

used substitute
is a Community Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
While I don't necessarily fully disagree completely with you snake regarding Gallade, I think your reasons for why it is falling are a bit flawed, and I don't really think it should fall all the way to B-. Straight B is where I think it best fits in.

Two point specifically I think are off with what you just said about it. Of these two, the lesser issue I have is your implication that Medicham and Lopunny have better priority. While Shadow Sneak is certainly nothing amazing, I personally consider it no better or worse than anything Medicham has. I know it is fairly common, but I have never really liked Fake Out as a priority move, as it often doesn't let you get priority when you most need it, and it is no stronger than any other priority move. Furthermore, Bullet Punch is different from Shadow Sneak, but I don't consider it better or worse. Yeah, it can hit normal types, but it also fails to hit Water, Electric and Steel types hard, including guys like Mega Manectric, Cawmodore, and Mega Metagross. Of course there are ways it is better, I don't deny that. But I just wouldn't say Medicham has better priority moves. And Lopunny, well, I guess it gets STABs. But I still contend that Fake Out is an overrated move. Regardless though, I said this is my lesser issue, mostly because Gallade probably shouldn't even be using priority most of the time.

My bigger issue is with your implication that the other two Megas have "better Fighting-type STAB." This is just wrong. They have pretty much an objectively worse Fighting-type STAB. Its an 8% boost in power, in exchange for 10% accuracy, and 50% recoil on any miss. It is no coincidence that, looking at analyses of all the Pokemon that get both CC and HJK, across all tiers (small a sample size though it is), only Hitmonlee ever even considers using HJK, and only because it gets a Reckless boost to it. Frankly, I would kill to have Close Combat on either Lopunny or Medicham. That would be a huge buff for them.

In the end though, none of that really matters too much. What matters is how viable Gallade is in the metagame. And while I certainly agree that Medicham and Lopunny are generally better Pokemon, and thus higher rated, Gallade can still be great in this metagame. Its a strong and decently fast physical attacker that can break through Tomohawk, and can set up to be stupidly powerful. Frankly, I don't think any other Pokemon in the B rank, and certainly no one in B-, comes anywhere close to being as good a sweeper as Mega Gallade. Yes, it is a balance of power and speed, as opposed to excelling at one or the other, but that is exactly why you use it. Because not every team need an instant wall smasher like Mega Medicham, nor a fast, but comparatively weak offensive Pokemon like Mega Lopunny. Sometimes what teams need is something inbetween, and Gallade's ability to fill that role (while also possessing the ability to set up, pushing its power well beyond that of Medicham) is exactly why it is viable.

Again, I'm not trying to say that Gallade is one of the top Pokemon in the tier. But what I am saying is that it seems like your judgement is far more about how it compares to other Pokemon, and not enough about how viable it is in its own right. Its not strictly outclassed by any Pokemon. It simply has different qualities that, while not always as useful in their own right, certainly have their own niche in the metagame.
 

cbrevan

spin, spin, spin
is a CAP Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
To elaborate on snake_rattler's comment on priority, the difference in Mega Medicham's priority and Mega Gallade's priority isn't a disparity in damage output but rather the disparity in what Pokemon either move is able to threaten. It's true that they're both non-stabbed 40 BP moves, but Shadow Sneak does less to improve Mega Gallade's matchup with faster Pokemon than Bullet Punch does for Mega Medicham. Mega Medicham's Bullet Punch is able to threaten a 2HKO on Mega Crucibelle, Kerfluffle, and Mega Diancie while even Mega Gallde's +2 Shadow Sneak is unable to do so. In addition, Mega Gallade's reliance on Swords Dance usually means it won't have the moveslot for Shadow Sneak anyways as it would prefer Ice Punch or Knock Off to better break through Landorus-T or Slowbro.

I agree with you about the better STAB comment, and I can tell you with confidence that any perceived difference between Close Combat and High Jump Kick was not a factor when we decided to nominate Mega Gallade for the drop to B-.

What I don't agree with you on is your interpretation on how viable Mega Gallade is in the current metagame. Mega Gallade can perform well in a vacuum, but when measured against the field, the detriments to running it over its competitors is not worth it on most teams. Mega Gallade suffers from some vary serious flaws that have historically held it back. First, it requires a turn of setup to achieve the power level of some of its competitors, namely Mega Medicham. Compounding this weakness is Mega Gallade's inability to break through Unaware Clefable. This means Mega Gallade is a setup sweeper that cannot get past the number one roadblock to setup sweepers in the metagame, which in itself is a major pitfall for it. Secondly, its 110 speed tier is enough to threaten a fair amount of the tier , but it forces many important speed ties with Pokemon such as Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie, Latios, and even Kitsunoh, as well as leaving it susceptible to revenge killing by a plethora of Pokemon including Mega Crucibelle, Kerfluffle, and Tornadus-T. Third, it's a setup sweeper that doesn't have any counterplay against dedicated revenge killers such as Volkraken or Talonflame. All in all, Mega Gallade is just an okayish Pokemon in the current metagame that has no real strength. It's not breaking down teams from the get-go like Mega Medicham does, and its not beating down on frailer teams like Mega Lopunny does. It's niche isn't strong enough to differentiate itself from the field, which is why we decided to move it down to B- instead of B. B is full of situational Pokemon that work very well on certain teams, such as Kingdra or Magenezone, and situational checks to common Pokemon, such as Kitsunoh or Zapdos. While these Pokemon may not be as individually powerful as Mega Gallde, they're a lot more important when it comes to teambuilding just because the roles they perform are more relevant. Moving down to B- we have a lot more niche options such as Dragalge or Mega Aerodactyl, which are usable but don't come close to the first options people consider when teambuilding. We feel Mega Gallade fits with those type of Pokemon more so than it does with the Pokemon in B, which is why it was nominated to drop as it was.

TL;DR: Mega Gallade is on that borderline cusp of being usable but not exactly needed for most teams, which is why we thought it would be better to drop it to B- than B.
 

HeaLnDeaL

Let's Keep Fighting
is an Artistis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus
But what I am saying is that it seems like your judgement is far more about how it compares to other Pokemon, and not enough about how viable it is in its own right. Its not strictly outclassed by any Pokemon. It simply has different qualities that, while not always as useful in their own right, certainly have their own niche in the metagame.
Jas summarized this issue very well, and I think it's pertinent. There are a few mons that I feel like are currently ranked at X level far too much based on comparisons to other similar mons rather than how they fair in the meta itself. As a whole, this would be my major critique of the current VR style, and I'd like to see it remedied in the future if possible.

That said, I'm not necessarily saying that I agree that Mega Gallade should be B over B-. But clearly there are notable differences between Mega Gallade and Mega Medicham. I fully agree that Mega Medicham is generally better, but this by no means that Mega Gallade is bad, and their differences are still plentiful to the point where I don't think you can simply call Mega Medicham a better Mega Gallade and call it a day.

EDIT: I just saw cbrevan's post, so I'm going to respond to a few things I disagree with.

Mega Gallade can perform well in a vacuum, but when measured against the field, the detriments to running it over its competitors is not worth it on most teams.
When Mega Gallade is actually used, which is rare, I disagree with your assessment. Yes, Mega Medicham is useful on more teams, but when Gallade is used consciously for its benefits, it does not perform much worse. I also think you're greatly undervaluing the 110 base speed compared to 100 base.

Mega Gallade is on that borderline cusp of being usable but not exactly needed for most teams, which is why we thought it would be better to drop it to B- than B.
Well, the vast majority of megas are not needed for a specific team. There's only one mega per team and many to choose from, so I don't think this is quite fair of a phrase.. I entirely suspect you were trying to mean something else, but the current wording rather bugs me.

---
Overall, I feel that the current VR team is judging too much based on similar Pokemon, missing notable differences, and most importantly missing how the mon functions compared to other top threats and not just the "most comparable mon."

The following examples are a bit extreme, but I think they expose some of the flaws in rankings that I've seen and disagreed with. I'll phrase them more as hypotheticals rather than force my own opinion of each answer, but they should get you to at least think about many of the things I've thought about with some of these rankings.

A) Suppose that Tomohawk has a cousin, Tomoturkey. They are characterized as two different species. Tomoturkey is identical to Tomohawk except it lacks the moves Haze and Taunt. What should Tomoturkey's ranking be?

B) Suppose that Tomohawk has another cousin, Tomofalcon. They are characterized as two different species. Tomofalcon has 101/55/80/125/75/99 stats. They have mostly the same movepool, except Tomofalcon does not have Earth Power or Tri-Attack and instead it has Energy Ball. What should Tomofalcon's ranking be?

Forgive me if this is too much theorymoning to pose such questions, but you should be able to see the connections I'm trying to make.
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top